Jofwu

Gavilar as Odium's Champion

50 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Bort said:

I wonder if this is how Odium was able to circumvent the Oathpact this time. If I remember correctly, WoB states that Taln didn't break, meaning that there had to be another way to start the desolation - the Everstorm. But what if it was Galivar's attempts to reach Braize that allowed Ulim to escape and make it to Roshar, and get the ball rolling towards the Everstorm?

More even.

What it is Odium eho tricked Gavilar to start experimenting with Connections and to shortcicuit Oathpact? Maybe he knows already, or was able to figure this out, how to do this, but needet someone on Rosharan Side to start? We assume Gavilar was under influence of Unmade, but maybe it was Odium himself? And maybe they strook a deal - Gavilar kicked reaserch witch started messing with Connection and shortcircuit Oathpact, and Odium would give him immortality?

This starts to be terryfiengly plausible.

Edited by Bzhydack
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're not wrong... That is kinda terrifying.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is, crafty ol' Taravangian pretty quickly sees a hole in the terms Dalinar agreed to for the "contest of champions" such that he, the new Odium, "would be satisfied regardless of the outcome".

Even if Gavilar - whose corpse was Soulcast into stone, so he didn't "disappear" - were somehow a Fused-like spirit that could be put back into play against Dalinar, how would Dalinar's victory result in a "satisfactory outcome" for Odium? It would be more of a "haha, no WAY could Dalinar find a way to kill his brother!" strategy, which is just not very crafty (plus would involve pulling an untelegraphed Deus Ex Machina type plot twist out of nowhere that Sanderson doesn't like to do).

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, robardin said:

The thing is, crafty ol' Taravangian pretty quickly sees a hole in the terms Dalinar agreed to for the "contest of champions" such that he, the new Odium, "would be satisfied regardless of the outcome".

Even if Gavilar - whose corpse was Soulcast into stone, so he didn't "disappear" - were somehow a Fused-like spirit that could be put back into play against Dalinar, how would Dalinar's victory result in a "satisfactory outcome" for Odium? It would be more of a "haha, no WAY could Dalinar find a way to kill his brother!" strategy, which is just not very crafty (plus would involve pulling an untelegraphed Deus Ex Machina type plot twist out of nowhere that Sanderson doesn't like to do).

The key is likely to make it that Dalinar CAN'T win - either stop the planet's rotation on day 9, or get Dalinar to be locked in two competing oaths, so that to win he has to do X, but doing X would break an oath he is forbidden from breaking, and to not do X is to break another oath.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

The key is likely to make it that Dalinar CAN'T win - either stop the planet's rotation on day 9, or get Dalinar to be locked in two competing oaths, so that to win he has to do X, but doing X would break an oath he is forbidden from breaking, and to not do X is to break another oath.

I get what you mean, but to me, Taravangian's exultant insight definitely smacked more of a "heads I win, tails you lose" angle rather than a "I can call heads and force it to come up heads" type of attitude.

In particular, it was something that HE (Taravangian) as the Vessel of Odium saw, and Rayse did not.

I mean, look at it this way: the Gavilar Gambit can only work against Dalinar, but everybody else on Team Radiant (Navani, Kaladin, etc.) had assumed he'd name Kaladin as his Champion. Why wouldn't Rayse have assumed so, too, even if he were hedging against his primary plan - getting Dalinar to fall to become his Champion - in case it fell through?

And, even if Rayse had foreseen that Dalinar would name himself as Champion "if" he avoided that fate, if he had had Gavilar as his trump card, he'd have agreed immediately to have a Very Soon Contest (and not have delayed all that time, building up the Shardic stress, in trying to get Kaladin to fall to him).

Instead, Taravangian is annoyed at Rayse for being so clumsy as to "let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar" - not picking up on some very deep play that Rayse left for him to use.

Quote

"Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. ... It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed."

What Taravangian sees is "so subtle" and something Rayse had "missed". Which sending Gavilar out against Dalinar is not, and would have needed Rayse to have intentionally prepared for (at the time that Gavilar died).

Edited by robardin
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, robardin said:

I get what you mean, but to me, Taravangian's exultant insight definitely smacked more of a "heads I win, tails you lose" angle rather than a "I can call heads and force it to come up heads" type of attitude.

In particular, it was something that HE (Taravangian) as the Vessel of Odium saw, and Rayse did not.

I get that, and that is what I was implying. I actually mentioned that in a previous topic. Either way Dalinar acts Taravangian sees himself winning.

 

16 hours ago, robardin said:

In particular, it was something that HE (Taravangian) as the Vessel of Odium saw, and Rayse did not.

I mean, look at it this way: the Gavilar Gambit can only work against Dalinar, but everybody else on Team Radiant (Navani, Kaladin, etc.) had assumed he'd name Kaladin as his Champion. Why wouldn't Rayse have assumed so, too, even if he were hedging against his primary plan - getting Dalinar to fall to become his Champion - in case it fell through?

And, even if Rayse had foreseen that Dalinar would name himself as Champion "if" he avoided that fate, if he had had Gavilar as his trump card, he'd have agreed immediately to have a Very Soon Contest (and not have delayed all that time, building up the Shardic stress, in trying to get Kaladin to fall to him).

Instead, Taravangian is annoyed at Rayse for being so clumsy as to "let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar" - not picking up on some very deep play that Rayse left for him to use.

It depends on if Taravangian can see Kaladin going to Ishar. Future sight shows possibilities, not certainties, but one also needs to know how someone thinks, and Rayse likely didn't understand the man Dalinar had become.

 

16 hours ago, robardin said:

Instead, Taravangian is annoyed at Rayse for being so clumsy as to "let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar" - not picking up on some very deep play that Rayse left for him to use.

What Taravangian sees is "so subtle" and something Rayse had "missed". Which sending Gavilar out against Dalinar is not, and would have needed Rayse to have intentionally prepared for (at the time that Gavilar died).

If Dalinar is bound by an oath to Gavilar never to oppose his brother again, his nature as a Bondsmith may prevent him from stopping him. If Gavilar uses Dalinar's perpetual subservience and his own bond with the Stormfather to try to claim him, Dalinar may not be able to stop him. If Gavilar is in the body of Gavinor, Dalinar has two beloved family members he has to somehow kill to win. This could also play into the flashbacks that would have occured during book 5, as Dalinar's flashbacks feature his relationship with his brother prominently.

And if Dalinar does kill Gavilar, what happens to his bond to the Stormfather? What happens to his ability to enforce Honours decision?

(Also, if my half joking idea of the planet's rotation stopping happens, then he can prevent the contest from ever happening - a perpetual day 9, and the contest is forever out of reach. Or he gains a year, due to the nature of how orbital mechanics and tidal locking works.)

 

That is one possible answer. I don't know if it will happen, but it is a possibility.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

If Dalinar is bound by an oath to Gavilar never to oppose his brother again, his nature as a Bondsmith may prevent him from stopping him. If Gavilar uses Dalinar's perpetual subservience and his own bond with the Stormfather to try to claim him, Dalinar may not be able to stop him. If Gavilar is in the body of Gavinor, Dalinar has two beloved family members he has to somehow kill to win. This could also play into the flashbacks that would have occured during book 5, as Dalinar's flashbacks feature his relationship with his brother prominently.

I think it would really depend on the exact wording his oath. I don't recall exactly what it was though.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Bort said:

I think it would really depend on the exact wording his oath. I don't recall exactly what it was though.

From Oathbringer chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed

Quote

Dalinar sat down on a stone, pulling free his helm and accepting water from a young messenger woman. Never again, he swore to himself. I give way for Gavilar in all things. Let him have the throne, let him have love.
I must never be king.

Dalinar swore that he would give way for Gavilar in all things.

Edited by Ixthos
4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome, thanks :)

This will provide some interesting dilemmas in Dalinar's future, I think, but yeah, I can see this totally screwing him over.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bort said:

Awesome, thanks :)

This will provide some interesting dilemmas in Dalinar's future, I think, but yeah, I can see this totally screwing him over.

Yup :D I think we're probably going to have Dalinar stuck between oaths - does a private oath, made to oneself when one needed something to reign them in, still apply when the person you swore to give way to is actually a monster? I think there may be some Szeth parallels, too, as Szeth likewise felt himself unable to choose not to disobey.

We'll probably see Taravangian seeming to get the last laugh, and then ... BAM! Taravangian's promise when he was a mortal with Odium turned about on him. The trap used on Dalinar suddenly applied to himself.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh! That's nasty!!! That's like white-chocolate-shrimp-sauce nasty. But genius!!!

Todium gets screwed by a promise he himself had made while mortal...

I kinda think you're onto something here, and we're going to see Dalinar trapped, but if it backfires and gets Todium, then brilliant.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bort said:

Oh! That's nasty!!! That's like white-chocolate-shrimp-sauce nasty. But genius!!!

Todium gets screwed by a promise he himself had made while mortal...

I kinda think you're onto something here, and we're going to see Dalinar trapped, but if it backfires and gets Todium, then brilliant.

Thanks! :) One thing we can be sure of is that Brandon is a master of clever twists. I'm pretty sure this is going to happen, but If this twist isn't it, we can be sure whatever he does come up with will be just as amazing!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ixthos said:

If Dalinar is bound by an oath to Gavilar never to oppose his brother again, his nature as a Bondsmith may prevent him from stopping him.

Are mortals actually bound by oaths in any way? Like does breaking agreements make it easier for others to damage your spiritweb? Or is it just the shards? It seems to me that the Shard's power is bound to agreements that are made by vessel on the shard's behalf, and that Dalinar simply made a personal promise. I also have trouble thinking that both Dalinar and the Stormfather wouldn't understand that circumstances have changed, and that that oath would be considered binding. Besides, the only people who know about that oath are Dalinar and Navani (of course if it would be such a binding agreement, Odium would probably have the power to see it in the possible futures).

Someone mentioned that Gavilar might try and steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather, and while I don't think he would try and do that specifically, I do have something to add: Gavilar might try and make a play to be the representative of Honor. If he were to do this, he could scratch the deal altogether (meaning Taravodium wouldn't even need to wait to see the outcome of the duel to know to potentially win).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problems I have with Gavilar as the champion is

1) would come out of nowhere for the general reader

2)gavilar doesn't seem like a fighter or a threat to the Bondsmith blackthorn

3) Dalinar is not an idiot. He would go ahead with killing Gavilar anyway, especially if he finds out that gav is not a good man.

Edited by KaladinWorldsinger
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DiePie said:

Are mortals actually bound by oaths in any way? Like does breaking agreements make it easier for others to damage your spiritweb? Or is it just the shards?

Odium noted Dalinar's power would bind Dalinar eventually, and while Shards can break their words but become vulnerable in the process, so too can Knights Radiant become bound by their oaths unless they want unfortunate consequences - as you noted, damaging you, and your spren's, spirit web. For example, if Dalinar broke his oaths, what would happen to the Stormfather, which is a spren necessary for the functioning of Roshar. As Odium put it, Rhythm of War Chapter 112: Terms 

Quote

“Ishar told me some curious things this latest visit,” Dalinar said. “He gave me a book with secrets in it. He is not as mad as I feared, Odium. He showed me my Connection to you, and explained how limited you are. Then he proved to me that a Bondsmith unchained is capable of incredible feats.” He looked at the ancient being. “You are a god. You hold vast powers, yet they bind you as much as they free you. Tell me, what do you think of a human bearing the weight of a god’s powers, but without that god’s restrictions?”
“The power will bind you eventually, as it has me,” Odium said. “You don’t understand a fraction of the things you pretend to, Dalinar.”

Dalinar's promises, perhaps or especially those made before he became a Bondsmith, likely bind him just as tightly as those made afterwards.

 

8 hours ago, DiePie said:

It seems to me that the Shard's power is bound to agreements that are made by vessel on the shard's behalf, and that Dalinar simply made a personal promise. I also have trouble thinking that both Dalinar and the Stormfather wouldn't understand that circumstances have changed, and that that oath would be considered binding. Besides, the only people who know about that oath are Dalinar and Navani (of course if it would be such a binding agreement, Odium would probably have the power to see it in the possible futures).

I think, if this does unfold, a key point will be that the Stormfather is beginning to understand that oaths can be broken for noble reasons - the thing is, until recently, that was something he couldn't process, and might still have trouble with. The whole point of the Stormfather and spren in general is an inability to accept that people breaking oaths is anything less than a horror, as they can't. We understand this naturally to a lesser extent, as to a spren any breaking of an oath is like someone you know saying "jump and I'll catch you," and then letting you fall. "Why didn't you catch me? You said you care for me and don't want me to fall? You hurt me!" "Well, yes, but-"

Even if it was a personal promise, Dalinar might have told Taravangian about it before, or Odium could see into Dalinar's mind at the time he made the oath, considering his intense interest in Dalinar, or, most likely, Taravangian is betting on the type of man Dalinar is, or as you say Odium can sense it. Either way Dalinar knows the oath he made - I can well believe Dalinar would see to break a private oath to be just as much to betray a promise as breaking a public one, and the Stormfather likely can sense the web of oaths Dalinar has made, and at least at first try to hold him to it.

 

9 hours ago, DiePie said:

Someone mentioned that Gavilar might try and steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather, and while I don't think he would try and do that specifically, I do have something to add: Gavilar might try and make a play to be the representative of Honor. If he were to do this, he could scratch the deal altogether (meaning Taravodium wouldn't even need to wait to see the outcome of the duel to know to potentially win).

That was me, when I was suggesting two added elements to the theory, being the attempt to steal the Stormfather - and if Gavilar tries Dalinar may not be allowed to stop him because of Gavilar bonding him first and Dalinar's oath to give way to Gavilar - and possessing Gavinor.

I like that take on it. Hopefully if he does try this it either is a slow thing over the course of Dalinar realising he has to face Gavilar - so nine or eight days before the competition Gavilar makes himself known, possessing Gavinor, and per the terms of the agreement Dalinar can't stop him as he is the chosen champion - and he has to come to terms with Gavilar slowly leeching the bond, or it is a reveal right as the battle is about to start, suddenly seeing Gavilar and Gavilar trying to take the bond and declare himself Honour's representative. I hope it's the former as this would add further layers to Dalinar's worry, as in many ways Gavilar was the catalyst for Dalinar becoming who he should be, and having to face the antithesis of this in the very man who Dalinar idolised ... it would add further layers and questions as to what Dalinar could do.

 

 

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The main problems I have with Gavilar as the champion is

1) would come out of nowhere for the general reader

2)gavilar doesn't seem like a fighter or a threat to the Bondsmith blackthorn

3) Dalinar is not an idiot. He would go ahead with killing Gavilar anyway, especially if he finds out that gav is not a good man.

A few points

  1. It depends on how foreshadowed it is in the book itself, and when the reveal is. If the prologue hints that he survived, or shows him surviving, and the interludes involve him, it would make sense. Each book should be stand alone in many ways though still connected to the others
  2. Gavilar doesn't have to fight physically, but emotionally and spiritually - no opponent could hurt Dalinar more emotionally, and Gavilar has primacy over Dalinar because of Dalinar's private oath to always give way to Gavilar. If Gavilar takes the Stormfather, could Dalinar stop him
  3. He couldn't - if Gavilar possesses Gavinor, and Gavilar is someone Dalinar swore to always obey (see earlier in the thread where the quote is), Dalinar would be helpless.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The main problems I have with Gavilar as the champion is

1) would come out of nowhere for the general reader

2)gavilar doesn't seem like a fighter or a threat to the Bondsmith blackthorn

3) Dalinar is not an idiot. He would go ahead with killing Gavilar anyway, especially if he finds out that gav is not a good man.

1. I think just showing him surviving will be enough for general readers. You don't need to know all the foreshadowing to enjoy a twist. If they want to know about foreshadowing it's there, but I don't think it's hard to find in retrospect.

2. Dalinar could beat Gavilar in a physical fight, as we knew him... But he's not going to be EXACTLY the same person we knew. At the very least he will be a Cognitive Shadow. He will probably be souped up with Odium's Investiture. There's no telling what kind of magical powers he might have, or how he has grown in strength (physical or spiritual). Heck, maybe it will be our first display of true Voidbinding.

3. The theory isn't meant to suggest the story will go that direction. I fully agree with you. I think all the ideas that Dalinar will lose "because he just can't bear to fight his opponent" are really dumb. :lol:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/9/2022 at 4:04 AM, Ixthos said:

Dalinar's promises, perhaps or especially those made before he became a Bondsmith, likely bind him just as tightly as those made afterwards.

Odium's line there seems (to me) to be talking about the power's Intent, not specific agreements. First of all, he mentions a time frame (if Dalinar's oath were to bind him in 10 days, Odium would've said that they already bind him (or will soon bind him). Secondly, he says it as if it's the power that's doing the binding. The power didn't bind him to his agreements, he did. He made those agreements. The power is affected by his decisions regarding his agreements not the other way around.

But either way, Rayse is being intentionally opaque. You could very well be right.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, DiePie said:

Odium's line there seems (to me) to be talking about the power's Intent, not specific agreements. First of all, he mentions a time frame (if Dalinar's oath were to bind him in 10 days, Odium would've said that they already bind him (or will soon bind him). Secondly, he says it as if it's the power that's doing the binding. The power didn't bind him to his agreements, he did. He made those agreements. The power is affected by his decisions regarding his agreements not the other way around.

But either way, Rayse is being intentionally opaque. You could very well be right.

Fair enough - we'll just have to see how things go.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/9/2022 at 0:14 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The main problems I have with Gavilar as the champion is

1) would come out of nowhere for the general reader

I have been wondering about this too. If we could find some other pieces of foreshadowing, it would not come out of nowhere. 

1) -1. Gavilar grows angry with Navani and they snap at each other --Odium's influence

1) -2. Jofwu's point about Gavilar being way too calm as he is dying and giving Szeth a to-do list. 

1) -3. Thematically, people have really started to hate Gavilar and we need some way to get an explanation of what Gavilar was doing. (Jofwu makes this point as well, I think). The other option here is that Kalak explains what is going on, but I don't think he knows all of it. 

3.2. I agree so wholeheartedly with Jofwu that there is so much depth to Gavilar's character, that if he did survive as a cognitive shadow, it would be so incredible for the audience to enjoy.

3.3 Brandon said that Gavilar would approve of a lot of Dalinar's actions, but would have wanted him to be more ambitious. This seems to imply that Brandon has thought about what Gavilar would think and do. This could mean that he is not done with Gavilar.

1) -4. Pseudo-foreshadowing could include lots of things. For example, Gavilar doesn't know what would happen if there was negative investiture to close to him when he died, so he needed Szeth to take that sphere from him... Some flashbacks to Gavilar trying to use his Connection to Elhokar to influence him. These weird visions just cause Elhokar to be paranoid. 

On 2/9/2022 at 0:14 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

2)gavilar doesn't seem like a fighter or a threat to the Bondsmith blackthorn

3) Dalinar is not an idiot. He would go ahead with killing Gavilar anyway, especially if he finds out that gav is not a good man.

I agree with Ixthos's earlier post about it being a lose-lose. If Dalinar kills Gavilar and breaks an oath, that could be just as dangerous as him actually losing.

 

 

 

On another note:

I want this theory to be right, but the biggest problem that I have with it is the fact that Jasnah hasn't figured it out.

She has had time and monetary resources. She is smart and resourceful. She has access to Shadesmar and is a Knight Radiant. She has both interest and the ability to obsessively focus on a task.

If we consider the fact that Jasnah already knows, that raises more problems then it answers. We need to assume that she doesn't know, but how...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/13/2022 at 3:53 PM, Kandrafish said:

If we consider the fact that Jasnah already knows, that raises more problems then it answers. We need to assume that she doesn't know, but how...

he could've pulled a Kelsier and waltzed off to Braize or something for the majority of the series

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2022 at 2:23 AM, Kandrafish said:

I want this theory to be right, but the biggest problem that I have with it is the fact that Jasnah hasn't figured it out.

She has had time and monetary resources. She is smart and resourceful. She has access to Shadesmar and is a Knight Radiant. She has both interest and the ability to obsessively focus on a task.

If we consider the fact that Jasnah already knows, that raises more problems then it answers. We need to assume that she doesn't know, but how...

Why would Jasnah have to figure it out???She saw her father die in front of her, why would she question it? She isn't omniscient lol. She didn't even know that sleepless were a thing until hoid informed her. We saw from her point of view that she had no idea what Gavilar was doing (with the sons of honor) when he was alive, why would she have any idea about what happened to him after he died??

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18.2.2022 at 1:54 AM, DiePie said:

he could've pulled a Kelsier and waltzed off to Braize or something for the majority of the series

Why? Gavilar had spent years of his life to take over Alethkar. Why would he go to the power that wants to take it away from his family?

And that is the main difficulty. Gavilar has a very high opinion of himself. And he is not a traitor. Nor anybody's servant. Why would he serve Odium like a common mercenary against his own house?
The part of the theory about Gavilar's continuation are much better than those about what he wishes to do with it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

SA 5 prologue

Quote

 

Spoiler

He ded

 

Edited by KaladinWorldsinger
I was an idiot
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

SA 5 prologue

You should probably put the spoiler in a spoiler box. You’re using a quote box.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

You should probably put the spoiler in a spoiler box. You’re using a quote box.

 

Oops. Thank you

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.