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Gavilar as Odium's Champion


Jofwu

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tWoK Prime spoilers:

Spoiler

Dalinar and Gavilar fighting in the Contest of Champions would be a "wonderful" (read: even more emotionally devastating for Dalinar) replacement for the Elhokar versus Dalinar scene in tWoKP. from WoBs, it seems that Brandon planned to keep that scene, but ended up changing it when it didn't work. This could be a "great" way to have that scene, but even better.

Additionally, killing Gavilar would break Dalinar's oath to yield to Gavilar, which could have an effect on his bond with the Stormfather.

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1 minute ago, Nameless said:

tWoK Prime spoilers:

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Dalinar and Gavilar fighting in the Contest of Champions would be a "wonderful" (read: even more emotionally devastating for Dalinar) replacement for the Elhokar versus Dalinar scene in tWoKP. from WoBs, it seems that Brandon planned to keep that scene, but ended up changing it when it didn't work. This could be a "great" way to have that scene, but even better.

Additionally, killing Gavilar would break Dalinar's oath to yield to Gavilar, which could have an effect on his bond with the Stormfather.

Yeah, I've seen that latter argument. I don't think it would be an issue honestly. That was a promise made a long time ago under very different circumstances. It's *similar* to what happened with Kaladin, but also very different. I feel like there were some implicit qualifications to that oath which are no longer valid. And I'm not sure Stormfather would hold him to it.

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Just now, Jofwu said:

Yeah, I've seen that latter argument. I don't think it would be an issue honestly. That was a promise made a long time ago under very different circumstances. It's *similar* to what happened with Kaladin, but also very different. I feel like there were some implicit qualifications to that oath which are no longer valid. And I'm not sure Stormfather would hold him to it.

The question isn't whether the Stormfather would hold him to it, it's whether Dalinar would hold himself to it.

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While I agree that having this happen would be... rather problematic, and has its issues, as you stated, I do agree that this happening has the potential to be really awesome.

Gavilar is a great character to circle back to fir Navani as well. In her prologue, we saw Gavilar holding back from her, not telling her about anti-light and his own fabrial experiments that he was overseeing, and in general feeding her imposter syndrome.

Now that Navani has proved and has been recognised for her scholarship, now that she has proved that she was perfectly capable of discovering the secrets he wanted to discover all along, and could have actually helped him in his goals, and now that she is a Bondsmith in her own right (something he was on the road for, but never actually accomplished), and has domain over Urithiru (where the contest is meant to happen), Gavilar showing up could be a great way to bookend her story as well.

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I’ll admit I semi like this theory, though I am slightly conflicted. I just thought of this Death Rattle that I think is a good point of evidence:

Quote

“I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?” 

—Collected on Vevanev 1173, 107 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was an out-of-work Veden sailor.[24]

I think that it would make a cool, emotional, and character driven duel, but also be exciting to watch as well. I think the Death Rattle fits well with what would happen if Dalinar (Or maybe even Gavilar) wins. Man, if Gavilar won, he’d have killed his brother and helped the voidbringers win, and he’d have to live with that, which makes sense with the Death Rattle.

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Loved it the first time I heard it, oh, 6 or 8 months ago... love it now.  I have absolutely no doubt that Gavilar is coming back to play an important part in SA5, and I completely agree he makes an extremely dangerous (and satisfying) rival for Dalinar.  Gavilar, more than anyone else, has all the right history to swing a figurative emotional wrecking ball at both Dalinar and Navani.

More top-notch work, @Jofwu!

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I really really like this idea and have spent too much time thinking about it!

9 hours ago, Eldergod3 said:

Imagine if he showed up wielding Taln’s Blade. 

Is this a suggestion that Gavilar took Taln's blade and thus caused him to leave Braize even though "Taln never broke"... Because I kind of like that idea, but also am still confused about how Taln got another blade... I like the idea of Gavilar getting stuck in Braize and sending Taln back to Roshar, so that he, Gavilar, might be able to escape. If this is true, the Sons of Honor really did start the new desolation, or rather, an associate of the Sons of Honor.

 

Thaidakar?

It think this offers a potential explanation for what Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods are doing. If Thaidakar is trying to kill Jasnah and find Restares/ Kalak and learn about Amaram and learn about Taln (if Gavilar did send Taln back). Is the whole purpose that these are a list of Gavilar's associates. Ialai is also a former collaborator of Gavilar's. If Restares is really just trying to escape and not up to all that much, Why would the Ghostbloods be chasing his associates? Maybe it is all to figure out where Gavilar is and what he is doing? Gavilar really thinks that Thaidakar wants him gone... Maybe he does.

I also think it would be hilarious if the Ghostbloods tried to kill Jasnah because they thought that she was working with her dad (maybe because she sent her own assassin to kill people who she thought were enemies of the family and hit some Ghostbloods by accident)

Would suggesting that the Ghostbloods want Ba Ado Mishram because Gavilar wants Ba Ado Mishram be going too far? 

 (Mistborn Secret History Spoiler)

Spoiler

What if Thaidakar is using Shallan again. Think of him sending Goradel to get intercepted and Marsh getting the message. He is very subtle.

Maybe Thaidakar wants Shallan to find and protect Ba Ado Mishram from someone else (Gavilar).

 

Gavinor and Dalinar Connection?

Let us suppose the Everstorm frees Gavilar as a cognitive shadow. Gavilar has a massive connection to Gavinor through name and blood. Could he be talking to his grandson and causing some of Gavinor's seriousness and issues, or is it just the unmade influence? Why doesn't Dalinar feel Gavilar if they are Connected? Dalinar is a Bondsmith shouldn't he feel his Connection to Gavilar? (I suppose the obvious answer to this last one is Intent. Without knowing that Gavilar is alive Dalinar cannot Intend to contact him, but I don't know if Intent works like that.)

 

Again, I really like this theory, but I feel like I am not making these ideas click as well as they could with the theory... I wanted to add them for any discussion that might ensue anyway.

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6 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Is this a suggestion that Gavilar took Taln's blade and thus caused him to leave Braize even though "Taln never broke"... Because I kind of like that idea, but also am still confused about how Taln got another blade... I like the idea of Gavilar getting stuck in Braize and sending Taln back to Roshar, so that he, Gavilar, might be able to escape. If this is true, the Sons of Honor really did start the new desolation, or rather, an associate of the Sons of Honor.

I don't think that quite fits, because I'd say the whole point of the Everstorm was to sort of short circuit the Oathpact. They punched a hole through, so to speak, since Taln was starting to seem unbreakable. So I tend to think Taln's return was just naturally triggered at some point along that process. Though I guess it's not impossible that Gavilar somehow sent him back, if he wouldn't have otherwise because the Oathpact mechanics weren't working right?

In any case, the point about Taln's blade is simply that we know it's missing and they think it would be cool for Gavilar to have it.

When Taln returned at the end of TWoK he had his Honorblade, but then at the end of Words of Radiance we see Dalinar bond the sword he had and we realize that it's just a regular deadeye Shardblade. Meaning somebody stole his Honorblade at some point, and we don't know who or when. It's been a mystery ever since. Currently, Taln doesn't have his Honorblade.

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@Jofwu and @Kandrafish, building off of both your points, here are two horrifying things to consider added to this theory:

  • As Gavilar was beginning to bond the Stormfather, beginning to become a Bondsmith, might he not try, augmented by Odium's power, to claim ownership of the bond, trying to usurp Dalinar - Dalinar laboured to build Gavilar's empire, served his brother, gave up his pursuit of Navani for him - might Gavilar not use this bond of subservience, that Dalinar always yielded to him, to try to spiritually lay claim to the Stormfather by rights of primacy?
  • Gavinor and Gavilar are connected - could both this AND the child champion theory be true? Could Gavilar become a human Fused by stealing the body of his grandson?

 

So, the most horrifying form of this theory - Gavilar possessed Gavinor, his beloved brother by blood reborn, a betrayal, in the body of a boy, a child dear to his heart, and now trying to claim his bond to the Stormfather.

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All I'm going to say, is that this would be a cool place for Gavilar to have shown up as a bondsmith, having bonded to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Not only was he obsessed with the spren, he was a potential bondsmith candidate, and I think Taravodium would be perfectly willing to... alter the rules a bit to allow Ba-Ado-Mishram to form a Nahel bond and give Adhesion in the same way that other bondsmith spren do. This would also be a way for the battle to be more... spiritual in nature than other candidates would.

I think it would also be dope if, during the first part of book 5, deadeye spren start to act up, giving us the hint that Ba-Ado-Mishram was let out of their gemstone.

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This is one of my most favorite theories. Unlike child champion theory, witch has some problems (especially about willingness od child), this one matches perfectly with the theme of the books, because they are not about fancy world and flying, glowing people. They are about men and women who fight and struggling against themselves and thier inner deamons.

And Gavilar is embodiment of Dalinar's inner daemon. Dalinar always was in the shadow of his older brother, and memories of him, his life, conquest and death are THE memories - they build all Dalinar was. Im almost sure that with Gavilar alive there would be no Dalinar's change to who he is now.

Also remember. If Gavilar is Cognitive Shadow, is possible he is similar to the Fused. So he can be physicly impossible to kill. So technicaly Odium cannot lose, because fight is to the death - but if one side CANNOT die...

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Just now, Bzhydack said:

Also remember. If Gavilar is Cognitive Shadow, is possible he is similar to the Fused. So he can be physicly impossible to kill. So technicaly Odium cannot lose, because fight is to the death - but if one side CANNOT die...

I assume that Dalinar could kill him by destroying the connection to whatever power gave made Gavilar a cognitive shadow, but ofc Taravodium could be betting on Dalinar not realizing this, or not knowing how to do it.

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15 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I don't think that quite fits, because I'd say the whole point of the Everstorm was to sort of short circuit the Oathpact. They punched a hole through, so to speak, since Taln was starting to seem unbreakable. So I tend to think Taln's return was just naturally triggered at some point along that process. Though I guess it's not impossible that Gavilar somehow sent him back, if he wouldn't have otherwise because the Oathpact mechanics weren't working right?

In any case, the point about Taln's blade is simply that we know it's missing and they think it would be cool for Gavilar to have it.

When Taln returned at the end of TWoK he had his Honorblade, but then at the end of Words of Radiance we see Dalinar bond the sword he had and we realize that it's just a regular deadeye Shardblade. Meaning somebody stole his Honorblade at some point, and we don't know who or when. It's been a mystery ever since. Currently, Taln doesn't have his Honorblade.

Do we know that Taln had an Honourblade in the The Way of Kings... I always assumed that it was likely that he lost it on the way to Kolinar because someone switched it, but thinking about his attack reflexes (when he saved Amaram's life) and assuming that he didn't sleep when he ran to Kolinar (maybe that is a bad assumption), I always thought it would be pretty hard to steal his Honourblade. After hearing this theory, I started wondering if it would be easier to take it if he was already going mad from torture and he saw a friendly, regal, human face... So I wondered if that was what @Eldergod3 had beat me to postulating.

I do agree that the Everstorm is meant to work around the Oathpact, so to speak. And, I thought it probably has to do with the equipment that Gavilar used to transport things to and from Braize that could count as some sort of breach in protocol, especially if Gavilar is receiving visions from Honor while he does it... Contrarily, the spren on Braize could just be using the same technology.

However, if this theory is correct, I would imagine that Gavilar would be wondering around Braize looking for a way to speed up the Return and I wondered if having the last person to receive visions from Honor taking (back? If we count Gavilar as Honor? This is a stretch...) the blade that symbolizes the Oathpact would have some special significance and allow the storm to start brewing in the cognitive realm. Once this has happened, (perhaps as expected if Gavilar has been playing both sides and talking with Ulim) Ulim is already in place to start prepping the Listeners to become Stormforms and summon the Everstorm that is already in the cognitive realm due to some infraction of the Oathpact.

 

10 hours ago, Ixthos said:

@Jofwu and @Kandrafish, building off of both your points, here are two horrifying things to consider added to this theory:

  • As Gavilar was beginning to bond the Stormfather, beginning to become a Bondsmith, might he not try, augmented by Odium's power, to claim ownership of the bond, trying to usurp Dalinar - Dalinar laboured to build Gavilar's empire, served his brother, gave up his pursuit of Navani for him - might Gavilar not use this bond of subservience, that Dalinar always yielded to him, to try to spiritually lay claim to the Stormfather by rights of primacy?
  • Gavinor and Gavilar are connected - could both this AND the child champion theory be true? Could Gavilar become a human Fused by stealing the body of his grandson?

 

So, the most horrifying form of this theory - Gavilar possessed Gavinor, his beloved brother by blood reborn, a betrayal, in the body of a boy, a child dear to his heart, and now trying to claim his bond to the Stormfather.

Do we know if fused can inhabit folks who do not have gemhearts? I don't know if we can just assume that humans can inhabit humans... I think the human would need to swallow a gem. If Amaram bonding Yelignar and Aesudan, Elhokar's wife, bonding whoever she bonded, are set as a rule, then this is the general case... You don't think that Aesudan forced a gem down Gavinor's throat?! It actually sounds possible...

 

9 hours ago, DiePie said:

All I'm going to say, is that this would be a cool place for Gavilar to have shown up as a bondsmith, having bonded to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Not only was he obsessed with the spren, he was a potential bondsmith candidate, and I think Taravodium would be perfectly willing to... alter the rules a bit to allow Ba-Ado-Mishram to form a Nahel bond and give Adhesion in the same way that other bondsmith spren do. This would also be a way for the battle to be more... spiritual in nature than other candidates would.

I think it would also be dope if, during the first part of book 5, deadeye spren start to act up, giving us the hint that Ba-Ado-Mishram was let out of their gemstone.

First Gavilar needs to find Ba Ado Mishram... Before Thaidakar and before Shallan.

Think about it... Maybe Thaidakar really does just want to protect his own planet and is taking preemtive measures to keep Ba Ado Mishram out of the wrong hands. He wouldn't want anyone, other than himself, to use Ba Ado Mishram for personal gain... I would really like it if there is some secret battle: Thaidakar vs Gavilar still going on.

Spoiler

Thaidakar vs Gavilar (also known as Secret History 2)

 

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21 hours ago, DiePie said:

All I'm going to say, is that this would be a cool place for Gavilar to have shown up as a bondsmith, having bonded to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Not only was he obsessed with the spren, he was a potential bondsmith candidate, and I think Taravodium would be perfectly willing to... alter the rules a bit to allow Ba-Ado-Mishram to form a Nahel bond and give Adhesion in the same way that other bondsmith spren do. This would also be a way for the battle to be more... spiritual in nature than other candidates would.

There was a WoB that sais that Spren gives particular Surges because they are closly associated with those Surges, not because they are closer (or further) to particular Shard. And this is why Nightwatcher also gives Adhesion and Tension, despite being puerly from Cultivation - if this would dependent on association with Shard, she should give Progression and something (Transformation maybe?) Basicly, Spren are embodiment of Surges.

So if BAM is closly associated with Adhesion and Tension, shouldnt matter if she is from Odium, she still should give Adhesion and Tension. And we know she IS very closly associated with this, she was able to bring Voidspren and Voidlight, like other Bondsmith Spren.

BTW, I had theory about this aspect of Ba-Ado-Mishram some time ago.

 

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On 2/2/2022 at 4:10 PM, Jofwu said:

I've been slipping this into conversations on Discord for a while now, but I don't think I've seen anyone sit down and write out a theory for it. (or just a proper prediction)

Sometime in the wake of the RoW release I saw somebody on Reddit make a "what if Gavilar is still alive" post. I opened it up, and got about halfway through a reply about how that would be pretty dumb, but then the thought came to me that it made Gavilar a potential candidate for Odium's champion. The more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea--especially as someone who doesn't particularly care for the other champion candidates.

The main thing I want to do here is break that thought process down. I'll start with some evidence on why it's possible, address some common criticisms, explain why I think it's a cool idea, and then speculate a bit.

"Evidence"

Yeah, "evidence" needs to be in quotes here because we don't have any hard evidence that Gavilar is still around or that he will be Odium's champion. Though I can hardly blame Brandon for giving us nearly nothing to work with here... I mean, think about it. If we had a tangible clue that Gavilar is alive, we would be all over it. If you want a secret to last for 5 books, you need to play it pretty close to your chest.

Anyways, there's two steps here. First, Gavilar has to still be "alive" somehow. Second, there has to be a reason why he would be chosen as Odium's champion.

How can Gavilar still be alive?

So how is it possible that Gavilar is still alive? The only real possibility here is that he would need to become a Cognitive Shadow. His body was found to be very dead, and then Soulcast. He didn't slip into Shadesmar when nobody was looking. And how does one become a Cognitive Shadow? We won't get into full cosmere spoilers, but the general idea is that you need to be highly Invested. We know that Gavilar was a budding Bondsmith, but even a full Radiant is not Invested enough to be a Cognitive Shadow.

I think it's probable that Gavilar's soul would stick around longer than the average dead Rosharan, as we've seen something like that for users of a different type of magic. The only real example we've seen in Stormlight Archive is Eshonai, though she was caught in the middle of a highstorm so it's possible the Stormfather sustained her longer than would be normally possible. We can only make wild guesses on all of this however.

BUT we do know that Gavilar was involved into some highly suspicious activities, including but not limited to:

  • Fraternizing with Heralds
  • Competing with Thaidakar
  • Experimenting with Light, even to the point of producing anti-Light
  • Experimenting with Connection magic to send things to/from Braize
  • Research into Ba-Ado-Mishram, and perhaps other Unamde

We also know that he had a worldhopper working for him, Gereh, who was a Feruchemist with an Aviar. We don't know who close or aligned they were, but at the very least we can say that Gavilar was in close proximity to worldhoppers with knowledge and access to other forms of magic. When you list all of these things out... It seems to me that the story would have no trouble whatsoever in making a case for the possibility that Gavilar had become deeply Invested somehow. (or at least that he was Invested enough to hang on until he found other means, like a certain someone on another planet did)

One other notable thing from the RoW prolgoue is the strange way he seems to sense her presence outside the room. The text specifically notes that it was kind of creepy, in the sort of way that would be classic "hindsight is 20/20" Brandon-style writing. That kind of awareness is specifically associated with Breath, or at least Investiture in general. What if he has a bunch of Breath? What if he is a Dawnshard? Lots of juicy possibilities wrapped up in this subtle line.

Lastly, I want to mention this claim he makes to Navani:

Maybe it's a bunch of big talk from somebody who's about to die, but given everything I've just gone over it seems pretty difficult for me to not take this seriously. Gavilar planned to become something like a Herald and literally never end. The bigger question to me isn't whether he's being serious here, but whether he was able to pull it off.

When Gavilar tells Szeth to tell Thaidar he's "too late" in the TWoK prologue, I have to admit that part of me is wondering if that's what Gavilar might be talking about. Gavilar is REALLY egotistical if you haven't noticed. With that in mind, the level of composure he has while bleeding out in TWoK is... rather strange. This is a guy who was claiming a few hours earlier that he would live forever, a guy who spent his whole life fighting to be on top. And how he's just chatting with his killer while he dies? He's not trying to still fight or live with the kind of animal desperation I would have expected. On the contrary, he's fishing for information from Szeth, and making bold claims like "he's too late."

It feels to me like the words and actions of a man who hoped to have more time... but who is not particularly phased by the speedbump of death.

How can Gavilar be Odium's champion? Why?

I don't think this one is terribly hard to see HOW, if he is still alive. Odium can pick whoever he wants, if they are willing. The real questions are "why would Odium pick Gavilar?" and " why would Gavilar be willing?"

Recall that Taravangian and Gavilar were working together in some capacity prior to Gavilar's assassination. We still don't fully know the extent of their involvement. But there's room there for an established, important relationship that was never explored. Sure, it's possible that the SA5 prologue will briefly explain it and be done with the whole fact, but I think it's fertile ground for possibilities. Certainly enough for Taravangian to consider Gavilar. (Also, this also presents a reason for why Rayse never tapped Gavilar. They didn't have a relationship)

Why would Gavilar be willing? This is hard to say considering we still don't fully know what Gavilar's ultimate plans were. And even harder to say without knowing what Taravangian's ultimate plans are, now. We DO know that Taravangian wants to "save them all" and that some "greater war of the cosmere" appears to be inevitable. We know that Gavilar was super into empire building and having some notable legacy. He wanted to live forever and... do what? Maybe conquer the rest of the Cosmere? Is it possible that Roshar was looking too small?

I think it's pretty easy to see how their goals might be aligned, even if we don't have enough info to make arguments either way.

Common Criticism

The most common complaint I hear with this idea is that it isn't sufficiently foreshadowed, and this was the argument that I started to make as well. My response two this is twofold. First, as I said before, I think foreshadowing on such a twist would have been nearly impossible. That's why there's not much of it. Second, is that I would actually disagree... He TOLD Navani that he would persist. He TOLD Thaidakar that he was too late. And he was working with Heralds and all kinds of wild magic. It's not evidence... But it's the sort of thing that, if read AFTER a hypothetical explanation for all this, will have people saying "OMG, he said it right here in the prologue and we missed it."

The second most common complaint that I hear is with Brandon going overboard on resurrections. But guys. We haven't had a real death fakeout in Stormlight Archive since Words of Radiance. When Stormlight 5 comes out, that will have been 3 books and nearly 10 years ago. We didn't have any death fakeouts in Oathbringer or Rhythm of War, though we did get some pretty hard-hitting true deaths. (Eshonai, Elhokar, Evi, Jezrien, Teft & Phendorana...) If you ask me, Brandon has earned another opportunity for a resurrection. Particularly if it's a pointed one that does something interesting in the story....

Of course people often bring up the issue of how he could still be alive, but I've addressed that rather thoroughly.

The only other big hole in the idea is the question of... what has Gavilar been up to all of this time? But I'll speculate on this more below. I don't think this is an issue with the idea of Gavilar still being alive and becoming Odium's champion. It's just a gap that we don't know enough to make a good guess about.

Why this is a fantastic idea!

Okay, here's the fun part. Because, yeah, this is absolutely all more a bunch of wild supposition than a theory built on firm points of evidence. :) To me, all of the possible explanations of "how" and "why" were driven by the fact that the end result is amazing.

Gavilar surviving

I mean, the first thing is that we simply have to acknowledge how CRAZY it will be when we're reading Gavilar's prologue, and get to the part where he dies... and it keeps going. Now, to be fair, we can still sort of get this without Gavilar sticking around long term. We can have a few moments of Gavilar in Shadesmar before he dies all the way. But I just love the idea of reading that prologue thinking that we know how it ends (with Gavilar's death) and then SURPRISE, he's not dead and the story is not done with him. I mean, this alone is nearly worth the death fakeout!

Other champion candidates

Before I get into why Gavilar would make an awesome champion, let's talk about why all of the other champion candidates just... mostly aren't that exciting, in my humble opinion. I'm going to go through MOST of the possibilities I've seen mentioned before, in no particular order.

  1. "Child Champion" / Gavinor - Please nooooooo.
     
  2. Moash - Moash is Kaladin's business. There's no way Moash and Dalinar will face off in the contest. Moash only works as a chapmion if things go way off the rails and Dalinar can no longer be his own champion. It's possible, but I think it's pretty unlikely considering the effort RoW made to tell us that Dalinar would be his own champion. Weird reversal.
     
  3. Szeth - Szeth is basically the only other champion candidate that I don't dislike to be honest. I'll admit that Taravangian using Szeth once again to accomplish his goals (more specifically, tasking him with killing Dalinar) has a twisted poetry to it. So I won't make weak arguments against a decent idea. My only major issue with Szeth is that I think the contest of champions is going to be a very Spiritual affair. Remember how Ishar tried to steal the Stormfather's bond from Dalinar? (Or how Re-Shephir tried to tear Pattern from Shallan for that matter?) Remember how Dalinar memory-bombed Nale in RoW part 3? THAT's what I'm expecting to see in this contest. And I have a hard time seeing how Szeth is the right kind of person for such a battle. He's cool for the physical combat, and that would be mostly wasted here.
     
  4. El - He gets thrown around as a possible champion, but... I just don't see how that's supposed to work with so little setup. The climactic confrontation of this 5-book story arc is going to come down to a character that we basically didn't even know before opening the 5th book? Nah...
     
  5. a Herald - The Heralds aren't... terrible options here. Some of them. Jezrien is gone obviously. Taln and Ash seem pretty darn unlikely, just seeing how they fit into the story. All the rest of the women fall into the same issue as El, more or less. We already saw Dalinar face off against Nale and come out on top, so I don't think that's happening. Kalak is just a pushover at this point, so that's not happening. So... Okay, I take it back all of the Heralds except for Ishar are pretty terrible options. :D
     
  6. Ishar - Ishar is... possible. We've seen that he's threatening. He's not entirely underdeveloped. He works well for my image of the contest of champions. But he's just... not super compelling I guess? We know him better than El, but that's not saying much. And while Ishar IS totally off his rocker, he hasn't turned over to Odium's side yet. He's just kind of on his own weird, delusional side.

Gavilar as Odium's champion

But if we're looking for the PERFECT character for Dalinar to face off with... Look no further than Gavilar.

In some ways, Gavilar started all this--or at least, the story started with Gavilar--so he's a great person for it to circle back to. We've spent 4 prologues slowly peeling back what he was up to, with one more to go. Will the fifth prologue simply give us an answer and then move on? How will that answer MATTER though? If he gets pulled back into the story, the answer to that is easy. Gavilar is a RICH character with so much potential... And all we're going to get is one more prologue about how he's mostly not relevant any more? Making him Odium's champion means all of that setup has a payoff.

More than that, Gavilar is the beginning of Dalinar's story, and in some ways he's at the heart of it as well. Most of Dalinar's life was about supporting his brother. Even after Gavilar's death it was about supporting Gavilar's legacy in Elhokar, until something bigger came along. Gavilar was there in the start walking with Dalinar in his darkest moments. He was a bit of a rival before Dalinar had to shove that hunger for power down. He was the one who stole Navani. He was the one or had Dalinar marry Evi, and the one who sent Dalinar on the mission that ended in Evi's death. They went to the Shattered Plains together. And Dalinar's failure to save Gavilar from Szeth, plus Gavilar's words for Dalinar that night, is what drove Dalinar to the Nightwatcher. We can go on and on. I mean, they're brothers. Obviously they are important to one another. Sure. That's the point!

Szeth as the champion had some cool poetry to it... But so does Gavilar and Dalinar. Remember how Odium's Unmade nearly drove Dalinar to kill his brother, and he had to promise himself NEVER to challenge his brother's position again? Remember how that served as a major point of conflict for Dalinar as he struggled to work with Sadeas to support Elhokar before ultimately taking over as "high king", or how he was uncomfortable with Navani before eventually marrying her? How fantastic would it be to have Dalinar come back around to that "promise" he made himself, but now in wildly different circumstances. In fact, I'd say this has much of the same sort of energy as the Gavinor theory... while also making more sense. :D

And Gavilar is just a fantastic person for Dalinar to have to duel. The Connectedness should allow for some fantastic Spiritual struggles: Gavilar knowing who Dalinar was at his darkest, and wanting Dalinar to join him in some grand plan to conquer the cosmere; Dalinar who has rejected all that he once stood for, now wanting to call his brother to join him in a better way.

I really just think that, of ALL the potential candidates for Odium's champion, Gavilar serves as the best foil for Dalinar by a longshot. He's also got some physical combat prowess, in case they need to trade a few blows, and he is uniquely positioned to make for an interesting confrontation when it comes to the Spiritual side of things.

Allow me to speculate...

So there's a lot of ways that this COULD all fit together. Here's my wild guess.

We see in the RoW prologue that Gavilar and some Heralds were experimenting with a fabrial that allowed for transportation of... something... between Braize and Roshar. Voidlight perhaps? I'm going to propose that, in the moments after his death, Gavilar used that fabrial to transport himself to Braize. There, he becomes suffused with Odium's Investiture and he's able to stick around long term. He is, for all practical purposes, a human Fused.

But the Fused are bound to Braize by the Oathpact. Maybe Gavilar thought he could get back. Maybe getting there in the first place wasn't quite what he intended. Regardless, he's there, and now he's stuck. The Fused probably liked having a human around that they could chase or torture or whatever. Rayse probably just didn't care about him.

We don't have a clear idea of how the Fused travel from Braize to Roshar, but we know that some of them were STILL slowly filtering back at the time of RoW, over a year since the Everstorm was summoned. So it's not unreasonable that Gavilar wasn't able to get back to Roshar sometime soon after Words of Radiance.

So when Taravangian Ascends, and takes a quick survey, he sees his old buddy Gavilar... The PERFECT person to defeat Dalinar and recruit him into their cosmere war plans...

Thoughts?

You can direct all your hate mail to the person on Reddit who planted the seed of this idea in my head. (Good luck finding the post, I had no luck.) :D

Anybody have any specific favorite reasons why Gavilar would make such a good champion for Dalinar to face off with?

 This is perfect though I personally always leaning towards  his 1st wife being the champion  I think this might actually be better.

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On 2/3/2022 at 3:26 PM, DiePie said:

All I'm going to say, is that this would be a cool place for Gavilar to have shown up as a bondsmith, having bonded to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Not only was he obsessed with the spren, he was a potential bondsmith candidate, and I think Taravodium would be perfectly willing to... alter the rules a bit to allow Ba-Ado-Mishram to form a Nahel bond and give Adhesion in the same way that other bondsmith spren do. This would also be a way for the battle to be more... spiritual in nature than other candidates would.

I think it would also be dope if, during the first part of book 5, deadeye spren start to act up, giving us the hint that Ba-Ado-Mishram was let out of their gemstone.

 doesn't the vision show odium champion bonded to all 9 unmade?

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11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 doesn't the vision show odium champion bonded to all 9 unmade?

Dont thinks so. If youu talking about "Nine Shadows" of champion (Dalinar), this can mean anything, even Odium himself. Also, visions of future can change, and can be not clear. So this is not obligatory.

But I remember this theory revolving around Forum some time ago.

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9 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Dont thinks so. If youu talking about "Nine Shadows" of champion (Dalinar), this can mean anything, even Odium himself. Also, visions of future can change, and can be not clear. So this is not obligatory.

But I remember this theory revolving around Forum some time ago.

Well we know the shadows represent the unmade.  I all ways assumed that it ment he would bond all 9 but I guess we aren't really told what it means. Still it would suggest a connection between the champion and the unmade.  

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On 2/2/2022 at 10:10 PM, Jofwu said:
  • Experimenting with Connection magic to send things to/from Braize

I wonder if this is how Odium was able to circumvent the Oathpact this time. If I remember correctly, WoB states that Taln didn't break, meaning that there had to be another way to start the desolation - the Everstorm. But what if it was Galivar's attempts to reach Braize that allowed Ulim to escape and make it to Roshar, and get the ball rolling towards the Everstorm?

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