Wispsy Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 No if you read the book then it clearly shows that tlr only got such Power because of ruins manipulations and almost success in his own age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darniil Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 So it seems like Ruin had only been manipulating the prophecies for this last cycle since TLR took power... Almost, but not quite. Remember Kwaan's inscription in the Conventical of Seran? The prophecies as Kwann learned them originally (as a youth, probably) were different from the ones that the others were accessing in their copperminds. I don't remember how old Kwaan is supposed to be, but I'd say at least in his 40s - or the Terris-equivalent of what we would expect of someone in his or her 40s these days - if not older. (And I imagine Alendi was in his late 20s or early 30s, with Rashek being just a few years younger.) So Ruin was definitely manipulating things after TLR's ascension, but he also started a little earlier. (My guess is that he started actually doing things some time around when Alendi was born [and had been planning things long before that point]. First he twisted Preservation's Mists into the Deepness, found out which people were Seekers after they Snapped, had a Seeker-spike made for Alendi, put Alendi on the path that would lead him to the Well, and then started manipulating the Terris prophecies to say that the power of the Well should be given away rather than used. Unfortunately, Ruin didn't have Preservation's foresight, and he didn't realize that someone with an eidetic memory would learn the prophecies before he had a chance to change them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Almost, but not quite. Remember Kwaan's inscription in the Conventical of Seran? The prophecies as Kwann learned them originally (as a youth, probably) were different from the ones that the others were accessing in their copperminds. I don't remember how old Kwaan is supposed to be, but I'd say at least in his 40s - or the Terris-equivalent of what we would expect of someone in his or her 40s these days - if not older. (And I imagine Alendi was in his late 20s or early 30s, with Rashek being just a few years younger.) So Ruin was definitely manipulating things after TLR's ascension, but he also started a little earlier. (My guess is that he started actually doing things some time around when Alendi was born [and had been planning things long before that point]. First he twisted Preservation's Mists into the Deepness, found out which people were Seekers after they Snapped, had a Seeker-spike made for Alendi, put Alendi on the path that would lead him to the Well, and then started manipulating the Terris prophecies to say that the power of the Well should be given away rather than used. Unfortunately, Ruin didn't have Preservation's foresight, and he didn't realize that someone with an eidetic memory would learn the prophecies before he had a chance to change them.) Ok, I'll give you that, I just thought that was an interesting quote from the annotations. Thinking back you and Wispsy are correct that Ruin was manipulating things in the previous cycle as well. Brandon has said before that Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers. I take it for granted I guess that when he says that he's not being misleading and saying "Alendi was one of the first allomancers (because he got spiked by a hemalurgic spike making him a Seeker)", but that Alendi was a true Seeker from birth and was simply snapped by the mists. I like the 16^3 age for the age of the well, it does provide a nice tie-in to "16's". It is interesting to me though that if there were 2 cycles of the Well's power, the first Allomancer's appeared only in 3rd cycle, and then really only after TLR took the Lerasium and made his friends Mistborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 it was only because of her earing that vin could hear the well afaik so i would assume alendi had to be a seeker first and then spiked on top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofsoup Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 If Alendi was one of the original mistings, it is likely that he was more powerful than a modern misting or mistborn in the time of the final empire. Also he could easily have become a savant, but it does seem likely that he had some sort of spike to be influenced by Ruin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Alendi was directly influenced by Ruin? Where do we see this? As far as I can see in the epigrams, Alendi began uniting lands in the chaos of the deepness' "attack" on the lands with his friend Kwaan. Eventually Kwaan came to see that Alendi fit the prophecies of the Hero of Ages, and so proclaimed him so and set him on the path. At the end, it seems like he was swept up in the momentum of the movement (which was itself influenced by Ruin with corrupted prophecies), but I don't see Alendi himself being influenced. I think he was just a very powerful Seeker, no need for Hemalurgy One epigram does say that he had "the piercings of the Hero", but that doesn't mean he was influence by Ruin. Sazed had piercings too didn't he? But he was never influenced by Ruin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 he was less powerful, there were so few because they had very little investiture (connection to preservation?) the ones strong enough to snap in those days were like those that barely have enough ability to snap in mb age (afaik) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darniil Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 If Alendi were influenced by Ruin, I'd say it was a more indirect influence. "This kid here will react to a certain set of circumstances in the way I want, so I'm going to make sure he's the one who does all the stuff that will lead to me being freed." Something like that. And yes, he could have been a powerful enough Seeker to feel the Well on his own, but the comment about the Piercings of the Hero sound like that, too, could have been a manipulation of the prophecies by Ruin so as to get a hemalurgic spike in Alendi. Hmm. When Ruin was appearing to Spook, he was only able to do so when Spook was Spiked. Alendi saw "ghosts" as he was on his journey to the Well, though one did eventually attack one of the men in his retinue. Eh. I still think he had a Bronze Spike as one of his piercings. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DariusJenai Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Hmm. When Ruin was appearing to Spook, he was only able to do so when Spook was Spiked. Alendi saw "ghosts" as he was on his journey to the Well, though one did eventually attack one of the men in his retinue. I always assumed that he was seeing the same thing as Vin's mist-spirit, doing its best to keep Alendi away from the well. Even the attack on his men would be somewhat similar to Preservation's attack on Elend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauren.e135 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 it was only because of her earing that vin could hear the well afaik so i would assume alendi had to be a seeker first and then spiked on top I may be wrong, but couldn't Vin hear the well even when she wasn't wearing her earring? Or was it when her bronze was off? I don't recall. I assumed that she could hear it because the Well had chosen her. Hmm. When Ruin was appearing to Spook, he was only able to do so when Spook was Spiked. Alendi saw "ghosts" as he was on his journey to the Well, though one did eventually attack one of the men in his retinue. I agree with Darius. The ghosts were supposed to be the Mist Spirit. Besides, Ruin wouldn't attack Alendi on his was to release the power--that's what he wanted. Preservation was the one who attacked him because he knew Alendi was manipulated into the wrong course of action by Ruin, and was trying to stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I may be wrong, but couldn't Vin hear the well even when she wasn't wearing her earring? Or was it when her bronze was off? I don't recall. I assumed that she could hear it because the Well had chosen her. I agree with Darius. The ghosts were supposed to be the Mist Spirit. Besides, Ruin wouldn't attack Alendi on his was to release the power--that's what he wanted. Preservation was the one who attacked him because he knew Alendi was manipulated into the wrong course of action by Ruin, and was trying to stop him. I believe should could hear it w/o the earring once the well had accumulated enough power/at full potential. So if Alendi didn't take up his quest until later in the accumulation of well power, it could be that he was a normal Seeker. Is it a relevant enough question to add to the Ultimate list of Questions? "Was Alendi a double Seeker? Aka Misting + Hemalurgic spike?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I believe should could hear it w/o the earring once the well had accumulated enough power/at full potential. So if Alendi didn't take up his quest until later in the accumulation of well power, it could be that he was a normal Seeker. Is it a relevant enough question to add to the Ultimate list of Questions? "Was Alendi a double Seeker? Aka Misting + Hemalurgic spike?" Yes. Please post it there. However, in the Hero of Annotations, Brandon says the spikes were indeed so Ruin could manipulate Alendi. Therefore, they were Hemalurgic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Yes. Please post it there. However, in the Hero of Annotations, Brandon says the spikes were indeed so Ruin could manipulate Alendi. Therefore, they were Hemalurgic. Will do! Which Annotation does it say that? I was scouring them for reference to that over the last couple of days, but the only one I found was The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin. To me that just says that Ruin manipulated events, not directly manipulated Alendi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 ah i havent checked but i think towards the end she was just wearing the earing more? i kinda figured that was part of the big reveal about the earing :/ along with noticing she didnt pierce copper clouds without it and never heard the voice without it Oo if any1 does find a part where she hears the well with the earing out tho plx let meknow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 To me that just says that Ruin manipulated events, not directly manipulated Alendi... The evidence in the books is not definite. On the other hand, if Ruin had managed to spike Alendi, he would have been able to push and pull ever so slightly on his emotions. It would have guaranteed that the Hero reacted properly to the situations he put him in. I think that Ruin would have spiked Alendi if at all possible. The piercings of the hero suggest that that might be the case. It think it is more likely than not that Ruin had a hand in the piercings having happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I know somewhere it was said that the piercings of the Hero were a thing that Ruin had invented to control the Hero. Oops. Turned out that was in the Hero of Ages spoiler thread which explicitly spells it out, not the annotations. Quote from: VegasDev on October 16, 2008, 01:12:53 AM Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?1) This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity--which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.) EDIT: Though when you look at this way, the annotations do seem pretty explicit. Sorry for the confusion. Edited November 17, 2011 by Chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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