Jan 24-Ace of Hearts-Red Angel ch 2 (4073 words, V L)

[Ace of Hearts]

Hi everyone,

 

Me again with the next chapter of Red Angel, and a new PoV character. Hope you all enjoy and thanks for reading!

 

Questions for after reading:

1. Points of interest/engagement? Positive qualities?

2. What's not working for you or is confusing?

3. How are the characters coming across?

4. Reading this over I don't feel like the story knows as much about what to do with Z at the beginning as it does with S. How do you feel about her role in the story? Any suggestions?

[Mandamon]

1. Points of interest/engagement? Positive qualities?
--I wasn't very engaged with this chapter as I wasn't sure what was going on half the time.

2. What's not working for you or is confusing?
--The subject and arc of this chapter seemed to flit from one thing to another. Aside from introducing Z, I'm not really sure what was accomplished.

3. How are the characters coming across?
--Z seems like she has ADHD? and D is in charge of keeping her on target? It was kind of hard to pin the characters down as they're weren't really consistent in what happened.

4. Reading this over I don't feel like the story knows as much about what to do with Z at the beginning as it does with S. How do you feel about her role in the story? Any suggestions?
--Agree. I think taking one aspect of this chapter - Seeking out M, or getting info on the angel, or attending the refugees, or the fight, or the purpose of the organization, or stopping to sketch things... - basically it needs to be condensed to an arc that's recognizable. I'd suggest taking some of the information away and focusing on what is the most important at this early point in the book.

Notes while reading:

Pg 1: I'd break the first sentence into two, one about hitting the punching bag, and then about how it's made.

pg 1: You could probably condense a lot of this first page to get to D coming in sooner.

pg 1: "that covered even the skin around her eyes, but when Z looked close she saw that D’s eye color was leaf-green..."
--So does this just have eyehole cutouts like a mask? Also, if she already knows the eye color, she wouldn't have to look close here.

pg 2: “tell it to me straight.”
--a bit anachronistic?

pg 3: "ask something out of line.”
--What is her status that this was out of line?
--also, the question she eventually asks seems pretty benign and appropriate for a risky mission.

pg 3: "what to do about that"
--about what? I"m not really sure what's going on yet. About the day? M getting captured? Something else?

pg 3: "It was a mercy that she didn’t remember"
--so she doesn't remember the challenge and one of the princes getting killed? Is that what M is supposed to find out? I thought S already knew? Couldn't she ask him?

pg 4: Confused now. I'm not sure which events Z is talking about or what she wants to discover.

pg 4: "You know, for someone in charge of a group called the Freedom Fighters..."
--the topics here are meandering a lot and i'm not really sure what's going on.

pg 5: "Of course it came back to her not being able to bond with a crystal..." "...since D was a telepath"
--We haven't seen any sign of D using telepath, have we? Also, I guess their scheme is to kill the Holy Ruler? There seems to be a lot of other stuff going on as well.

pg 5: "that she knew how to paint"
--She can sketch, but can't paint? They seem like...related skills.

pg 6: "Z cut herself off before remembering any further"
--This is a bit of an awkward trope. It's hard not to think about something once you start.

pg 7: "The Creator must want her to come to terms with her past today"
--again, this seems a little forced. Was there a reason for sketching cactus or randomly following a bird? It seems like a plotful way to get Z here.

pg 8: "about her twin brother" "would Z be ready to face the truth?"
--Z'a twin or M's twin?
--Still not sure what truth this is. A lot of this chapter is vague.

pg 9: "why wouldn’t he tell her more about what he found out from their mother?"
--this is adding yet another element to an already confusing sequence.

pg 9/10: I didn't get that this was the angel from just the cloak. And then...they just fight? I'm not really sure what's going on.

pg 11: "She was flying and had daggers floating around her neck like the Red Angel of legends.” 
--so why wasn't she flying this time? Also, I thought she hadn't appeared again, so I'm not sure what Z's significance is.

pg 12: "Be sure not to go easy on that leg"
--Be sure TO go easy?

pg 14: “Do you think the refugees are okay in there?”
--I'm getting whiplash from all the changes in direction this chapter takes.
 

[kais]

 

Overall

This chapter also does not seem to have an inciting incident. Why does the narrative start here, and not farther in? Right now we seem to be getting 'slice of life' shots but no real plot progression or meat. The dialogue is also hard to parse (and there's a lot of it!) because it's so modern, and the setting is not, say urban fantasy. 

I think it might be worth going through your first few chapters and seeing where the book truly begins. Where is the event that kicks off the plot? That's the place to start chapter one, with maybe a memory prologue before it. It seems like a lot of trauma is around the king's ascension. That might be a reasonable prologue to write out in full.

As I go

- not the most dynamic opening

- pg 1: She’s out of your hands now <-- unclear. Who is 'she'. No point in being vague here. As a new POV we cannot relate to her without more information

- pg 2: forced her to make before they kissed for the first time <-- okay hi. This is excellent and I would like emotions around it, and possibly a full memory. First kisses are exciting, although this does age our MC down a bit.The summation robs the reader of any tension or character buy in and turns the scene into a hand-wave type of write off. If the MC doesn't really care enough to emote, why should we?

- pg 4: there are a lot of summarized memories doing the info dumping here. I think space would be better spent with a prologue that shows maybe the brother ascending to the throne, or little interludes that show us these memories in full. When they're just summarized like this I don't care about them at all

- pg 8: I'd much rather get a memory in full about the twin brother, than the summary. Also if she was blocking the memory of her brother and it just came back, where are the emotions around that?

- pg 13: Super badass. <-- the narrative is filled with modern phrases like this that toss me out of the narrative. The world is loosely based on a sort of Arabic historical setting, yes? The people then wouldn't speak like 2010s US natives, I would think. 

- this chapter also seems to lack an inciting incident

[Ace of Hearts]

Thanks for the feedback @kais @Mandamon! I could feel that something wasn't clicking this chapter and this helped me identify more of why. 

On 1/25/2022 at 10:50 AM, Mandamon said:

Aside from introducing Z, I'm not really sure what was accomplished.

 

On 1/25/2022 at 0:52 PM, kais said:

this chapter also seems to lack an inciting incident

Yeah, I think this is the key. Especially since Z is specifically *not* focusing her story around rescuing her partner, and I wanted the brother to be important but no real progress was made on that front. I think the next Z chapter is a little more focused but I'll have to see if that's also not enough. There's a big event concerning the brother's death a couple more chapters in with Z so maybe it makes more sense to start there for Z. 

On 1/25/2022 at 0:52 PM, kais said:

- pg 13: Super badass. <-- the narrative is filled with modern phrases like this that toss me out of the narrative. The world is loosely based on a sort of Arabic historical setting, yes? The people then wouldn't speak like 2010s US natives, I would think. 

This is something I see from time to time and I've never really quite understood the rationale behind, so I'm wondering if you'd be able to talk more about this. Is is really more accurate if they sound generically 18th/19th/20th century instead of generically 21st century? Or is the issue period-specific slang? I don't really consider words like "badass" to fall under that category, though maybe that's just me being a zoomer lol. I definitely understand why you wouldn't include stuff like modern internet slang but I need more help understanding why something like this is off-putting. 

Thanks again!  

[Ace of Hearts]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:50 AM, Mandamon said:

--Z seems like she has ADHD?

Oh this doesn't really have much to do with anything but funnily enough I wrote multiple drafts without realizing that Z has ADHD. After I got diagnosed, I looked back and was like "...huh."

[kais]

2 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:

is is something I see from time to time and I've never really quite understood the rationale behind, so I'm wondering if you'd be able to talk more about this. Is is really more accurate if they sound generically 18th/19th/20th century instead of generically 21st century? Or is the issue period-specific slang? I don't really consider words like "badass" to fall under that category, though maybe that's just me being a zoomer lol. I definitely understand why you wouldn't include stuff like modern internet slang but I need more help understanding why something like this is off-putting. 

I think generally writers try to avoid any period-specific slang when writing things outside that specific time period. Slang adds another dimension to your world. It's part of the world building. So if you are building a fantasy, loosely Arab world that has magic and is pre-industrialization, that puts a certain time period in my head. Using 21st century slang then doesn't match, and each time it appears it punts me from the narrative. There's no rule that says you can't do it, but it will be jarring for many readers I think. Unless you again, hang a lantern on it and give us some reason for why it exists, such as blending in some modern world items that would then tie into the slang (like, oh, there's surfer culture here too and everyone says 'bro' a lot).

[shatteredsmooth]

Positive qualities

I feel very grounded in the world. It's detailed and the magic system is clearly explained and makes sense.  I feel like you have just enough exposition and world building to set it up for me but not so much I get bogged down. 

 What's not working for you or is confusing?

Overall, I felt a little lost because not much happened until the end. In the opening scene, I thought Z was leaving to go on a mission with the other character, but then Z was just wandering around the street looking at bird until the person in red showed up. So in general, that left me a little confused about what was going on. Right before the fight with the person in red, I was almost ready to give up on the chapter. 

The fight gave it some direction, but it would've been more satisfying if it hadn't felt so accidental that Z stumbled upon that person. I also felt like it was over very quickly and easily. I wasn't worried during it. The stakes didn't feel super high. Though I am guilty of doing this with every fight I write, so maybe I shouldn't be criticizing it. 

Characters

I'm not sure how I feel about them. Z's optimism and general acceptance of everything is a little hard for me to buy into, particularly in the begining when she is talking about her partner being captured and doesn't seem worried at all. I know you explain why, but it feels forced, and even with the explanation I almost don't believe it. But this could be because I am so prone to anxiety and worry that it's a me problem and not a the character problem.

The other one doesn't seem like a problem, but also didn't come across super vivid to me either. Neutral feelings. 

Z's role

If you're not sure with what to do with her right away, it's probably okay to wait a few chapters before you introduce her.

 

Side note: Based on my "for fun" reading, I notice that I have a much harder time engaging with at least half the adult sci-fi and high fantasy than with YA, so if disengaged, it could be a me thing. I haven't read the other comments to know if they had similar or different experiences with me, but I know with your other book (which I LOVED) I tended to have opposite reactions to everyone. 

[Silk]

P2 “For a moment, Z was convinced that M’s plan veered off into a mirage.” Not sure what is meant here.

“This was not the reaction I expected.” Me neither, D. I have no idea what Z is actually worried about then. If nothing else, wouldn’t she be worried for her own skin?

Since we don’t know anything else about these characters, how competent they are or what their aims are, Z’s belief that everything will be just fine without, as far as I can tell, anything to back it up is coming across as quite naive.

P3 “What if your optimism as wrong?” This doesn’t seem like a particularly out-of-line question.

“...asking if any of the princes wanted to challenge J for rulership…” Wait – the narrative has referenced a few times a brother who got themselves killed… but this discussion implies that that happened today (since it all seems to be connected to J’s ascension). I had zero indication that it was that recent – I had been operating under the assumption that it was years ago, based on the fairly muted emotional reactions of the POV characters describing it.

I’m struggling with Z being so willing to just accept that her girlfriend has been captured. Part of it that naivete, but it also makes her fairly passive. Right now, I really want a character who is going to leap into action. I feel even more strongly about this by the end of the scene, when it seems that, despite her girlfriend getting captured, nothing has really changed for her.

Z and S also strike me right now as being very similar characters – young and eager to prove themselves but maybe not quite acclimated to the way the world actually works. I’m hopeful we’ll get a bit more that differentiates them in terms of personality and arc fairly soon.

P5 I like the detail of the reed pen!

So… her paramilitary organization is leaving and she’s hanging around sketching flowers?

P6 “This is where her J was keeping…” Should either be “this is where her brother” or “this is where J,” I think

“D could speak X, but Z knew that most Ss couldn’t” and also D isn’t here, unless I’ve missed something.

“Most of them looked too weary to care about her” seems to be contradicted by the fact that they’re staring at her

“...that could be what pushed him to fight an impossible duel.” Is the fact that the RA happened to appear the only thing making Z and S draw a connection between the RA and N’s death? Because that seems like a very thin thread of evidence if so.

“...he did a [redacted so the forum doesn’t yell at me] job of making it count.” lol.

At this point, I am really quite anxious for Z to do something. She wants to find out more about her dead brother, fine, but I really, really want her to action that somehow.

So… the RA is a person? I was expecting something much more eldritch and unknowable (but Z doesn’t seem surprised). Why do they appear in the street and goad Z into starting a duel?

I do like that our female protagonist is bigger and stronger than her opponent!

Are other people watching this duel in the street? She’s still in the middle of the marketplace, yes?

P14 “I have my own reasons for wanting to observe S…” And Z doesn’t even seem to react. She cannot possibly be this naive.

Overall: I had a harder time with this chapter than the last one, but my comments are similar: I think we need a clearer sense of purpose and stakes. Z is apparently driven enough to a join a rebellion that’s acting directly against her family, but I have no idea why. The fact that she’s signed on with a paramilitary organization doesn’t really seem to have registered for her. And beyond defeating the ruler, I have no idea what the goals of this rebellion are either – do they want to replace it with a different structure? Are they just out for blood? Etc?

We’re about halfway through the chapter before we find out what seems to be motivating Z, the death of her brother, but I’m struggling with the way the characters are making it out to be a mystery when he died in a duel. I think that if the text is more up front about what the RA does and why S and Z are so convinced that drove N to his death, that might help us feel like Z has more direction here – but we also just need to understand Z’s stake in this whole thing a lot sooner.

I’m also really struggling with the lack of information we’re getting just in a general sense. I think you can be much more clear and direct about what the characters are up to and why those things matter than you have been – we just don’t have the information to read between the lines the way the story seems to expect us to right now.

Finally: I really want the characters to start doing things. Z is very reactive in this chapter, which contributes to the character herself feeling aimless. I really want to not only understand her goal, but to see her act on it, not just react to things as they’re thrown at her.

On 1/24/2022 at 5:57 AM, Ace of Hearts said:

4. Reading this over I don't feel like the story knows as much about what to do with Z at the beginning as it does with S. How do you feel about her role in the story? Any suggestions?

I think I've mostly answered your questions in the critique (I really have to start looking at those before I read ) but I absolutely agree. I think I've harped on the clear goals/reasons enough, but for Z, it might be interesting to really dig into what drove her to rebellion, to really understand how far she's willing to go, (right now it mostly reads like a fun lark?), and to get some foreshadowing on the extent to which she might be tested on that. Something that sets her apart from the "rebellious princess going through a phase" trope.

[Silk]

11 hours ago, kais said:

I think generally writers try to avoid any period-specific slang when writing things outside that specific time period. Slang adds another dimension to your world. It's part of the world building. So if you are building a fantasy, loosely Arab world that has magic and is pre-industrialization, that puts a certain time period in my head. Using 21st century slang then doesn't match, and each time it appears it punts me from the narrative. There's no rule that says you can't do it, but it will be jarring for many readers I think. Unless you again, hang a lantern on it and give us some reason for why it exists, such as blending in some modern world items that would then tie into the slang (like, oh, there's surfer culture here too and everyone says 'bro' a lot).

I'm only skimming the others' comments, but the slang (and the particular line kais quoted) was a bit jarring for me to. For me, it was only partially the modern tone - it also really aged Z down in my mind.

[Ace of Hearts]

@shatteredsmooth@Silk Thanks for the feedback! It's really good to get some guidance about what's going on with Z. I think what's being hammered in here is that Z's story really isn't coming together into anything cohesive yet. I think part of Z coming across as strange is just due to how much focus there is on her *not* being a certain way (i.e. not up in arms to rescue her partner) but there's not enough actually going on to give context about what that means. I think I will either revamp this chapter or wait a bit to introduce her. 

[kais]

Since there is no thread for the new sub, I'm going to put my crit here. 

Overall

This chapter did not appear to have any events, just talking. There was a lot of potential for tension, which never materialized fully. More needs to happen in this chapter, and there needs to be solid plot progression. Instead of constantly being told history and backstory and emotions, I want to experience them in scenes. I think you have all the ingredients here, just not the right execution. 

As I go

- the opening sentence is not a particularly dynamic chapter opening

- The palace doctors said that his condition was why it took him longer than normal to read, and write <-- oh yay! Solid coding here

- pg 2: I'm not really sure what all they're talking about here. It's going over my head

- pg 4: lot of talking, not a lot of plot movement for four pages. Can they be doing something while they talk?

- pg 5: I am still not clear what is going on. I think part of the issue is that it's a lot of talking about things that I'm not seeing. I want to see the plot unfold, not just learn about it from conversation. Also, it's hard not to skim when people are just talking. Consider having them doing something that moves them towards the plot in tandem with the talking, so there are multiple things going on at the same time.

- pgs 6-7: I was interested in the lineage paragraph, but not much else around it. There's a lot of being told about emotion instead of experiencing it, and while they are currently moving with the plot (yay) and that helps, they're still info dump talking and it's just skating right past me

- pg 10: they're still just talking. Torture is on the table but everyone is talking and the most emotion I'm getting is sass from the one who could be tortured. I need more heart in this, and more plot progression

- pg 14: they're still just talking

 

[C_Vallion]

Wow. Busy around here all of a sudden.

Reading this while overtired was probably not helpful, but I had a lot of trouble finding a specific focus of it. It seemed to go in a few different directions, but it wasn’t clear to me how most of those directions tied into the overall story, except for the specific details related to the circumstances under her brother’s rule and what they’re trying to do about it.

The introduction of the cloaked figure adds in the detail that the RA exists, and gives opportunities to show her history with the RA and her other brother, but the events around stumbling across him/her and the fight itself came a little out of nowhere, and didn’t have a clear purpose.

I’d probably agree with the thought that jumping in a little later with her pov might be more valuable unless there’s a clearer goal she’s trying to achieve here.

 

Pg 1.

While I know next to nothing about punching bags, my random nit-picky thought on the first sentence is that a carpet big enough to be rolled up punching-bag sized seems like it would be pretty heavy. Why not just roll up some rocks in the middle or something?

“didn’t sound like something she wanted to explain” -> “wasn’t something she wanted to explain.” ? This one jumped out because it seems like the extra wordiness/indirectness I often tend toward, and which shouldn’t be imitated.  There are a few others of those as well, but another editing pass would probably help with that.

Pg 2.

“thinking back to the promise…” was that right before she left on this mission? Or is this a more general mission?  The phrasing of it makes it seem like it was a longer time ago, (and therefore that they’ve been together for a while) but it’s a little ambiguous.

Pg 2-5: A lot of the conversation here could probably be trimmed down. There are several points when it seems like a line that one person is saying is just there to prompt the other along to their next line.  I know I’ve done this at times when I’ve been afraid of having one person talk too long at once, but it can end up feeling a little clunky/forced if it’s too evenly back-and-forth.

Pg 3:

There’s also some funny tense stuff going on here and there. Places where it should be past-perfect instead of just simple past tense.

An extra thought transitioning from D’s question to Z’s memory would be helpful.

Do we know anything about the Hul-?

Shouldn’t S be able to feel Z’s emotions about that, though? Her conviction? What array of emotions/feelings are covered by the empathy magic?
 

Pg 4:

“Freedom Fighters” feels a little bland for the setting. This seems like a good opportunity to add some sort of myth reference or something similar as a world-building addition.

Pg 5:

“regular person” as opposed to…?

For the urgency of needing to get out of their hideout in the previous scene, wandering around with a sketchpad seems odd.

“got her glares for indecency”  if she’s part of some sort of rebel group, shouldn’t she be trying to stay under the radar? Seems like she’s going out of her way to attract attention here.

Pg 6:

What’s J’s explanation for kicking them out of the pilgrimage houses? Also, where are they coming from if none of them are able to cross the desert to leave?

Pg 8-10

The appearance of the supposed-RA and the fight seem to come out of nowhere, and the taunting/banter seemed a little odd. Isn’t she surrounded by a bunch of refugees? What’s their response when two people start attacking each other in the middle of the space where they live?  Isn’t she concerned that he’s one of the people who lives there, just wearing a red cape and maybe trying to defend the people there from some armed woman who doesn’t even speak their language?

Pg 11

“looked deep”  I’d say so, if it “lodged itself in her right thigh”

“…are young women.” Oh?

Pg 12:

I have questions about how Z got involved with this group if she hasn’t done anything to impress them.

How far did they walk to get here? And how much blood has she lost in the meantime?  They’re all pretty casual about the wound, which seems like it would have been quite significant. Did they remove the knife? Wrap it in any way? Or is it just bleeding all over?

Pg 13:

“You have to be, if you want to hang on to who you are.” I’m not entirely sure what this is supposed to mean.

Going to echo the other thoughts that the dialogue feels a little out of place for the setting. 

Still more questions about Z’s involvement with the group, and what they’re expecting her to actually do. She seems a little naïve here as she’s asking D to spy on the conversation with S. I sort of expected D to refuse and accuse Z’s royal upbringing of making her assume she can just hand out orders to people.