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Potentially overly ambitious worldbuilding


CryoZenith

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Preamble

Currently working on a setting, namely, the magic system for that setting. Problem is, I feel like I might've gotten a teensy bit carried away in the complexity department. Now, I'm not one to dismiss things out of hand without first asking for external feedback, especially since complex magic systems can and do work out in practice (Brando's fabrials say hi) so I figured I'd lay it all here to get y'alls take on it. While my main concern that I wanna hear about pertains to the unwieldiness/intricacy of the system, any and all constructive criticism is welcome (possibly with the exception of phrasing/spelling/grammar criticism. While I don't *mind* that per se, I feel like it won't be of particular use to me at this rough draft stage)

Origin

In the world of Dorumar, a rift has opened to other realms, and belligerent, invasive entities from other dimensions (which we shall further refer to as Outsiders) are slowly seeping in from impossible to close portals. The god (lower case g) of Dorumar cannot directly interfere to protect the inhabitants of his world from invasion, but can alter the ambient remnants of the echoes of Creation in order to grant Magic to the people of Dorumar. He has to be careful though, as corrupting energies followed along with the invaders, and Magic users (which we shall further refer to as Ascendants) are much more susceptible to their influence than the laypeople (which we shall further refer to as Mundanes). Given these circumstances, the god tried to design his magic system in such manner that it satisfactorily accomplished three tasks: 1. Being selective about who gets Ascended in the first place. 2. Giving people the powers which make it more convenient for them, on an individual basis, to act virtuously, in a manner of speaking, making the "easy choice" align with the "right choice" as often as possible. 3. Giving Ascendants weaknesses and restrictions that minimize the amount of harm they can cause even post-corruption, as an insurance plan. Here's what the god came up with:

Access

Any Mundane 18 years of age or older, of their own free and uncoerced will, may petition god to grant them Ascension through a specific prayer (this particular prayer is public knowledge on Dorumar, there's no extra requirements to get a hold of it). If deemed unworthy, the Mundane may never make the same request again for the rest of their life (I'm still debating if this should be an absolute with no loopholes or simply something that most people don't know how to do; currently leaning the former). If deemed worthy, the Mundane Ascends. Worthiness is defined in a very specific, exact way: the Mundane must be in the top 10% of the world's population in terms of a minimum of one of the Six Virtues, and in the bottom 10% of the world's population of a maximum of one of the Six Impediments. The god is a very intelligent mindreader, but he is neither omniscient nor capable of future sight (lower case g theme) so when he is evaluating a petitioning Mundane, he is only judging them on the grounds of their current Worthiness; he does not know anything about that Mundane's potential for growth or future growth trajectory. This is, once again, public knowledge on Dorumar, so people seeking Ascension delay the petition until they are as certain as they can possibly be that they have a solid shot of making it.

Virtues and Impediments

The Six Virtues are, as follows: altruism, diligence, serenity, clarity, courage, devotion.

In broad terms, altruism is the Virtue of being willing to benefit others irrespective of personal gain. Diligence is the Virtue of being willing to put in the work irrespective of personal motivation. Serenity is the Virtue of keeping calm irrespective of personal offense, hatred, or vengefulness. Clarity is the Virtue of awareness of objective reality irrespective of confusion, temptation, or trickery. Courage is the Virtue of being willing to proceed irrespective of personal risks. Devotion is the Virtue of being willing to acknowledge and follow orders, laws, customs, and advice, irrespective of personal opinion.

The Six Impediments are, as follows: coldheartedness, akrasia, impulsivity, bias, cowardice, rebelliousness.

In broad terms, coldheartedness is the Impediment of having baseline low empathy for others. Akrasia is the Impediment of having baseline low motivation. Impulsivity is the Impediment of having a strong innate leaning towards aggressiveness and recklessness. Bias is the Impediment of having a baseline unreliable intuition, when it comes to both cold as well as hot cognitive biases. Cowardice is the Impediment of having a very strong baseline sense of self preservation. Rebelliousness is the Impediment of having a strong knee-jerk reaction to being controlled or told what to do, irrespective of what you wanted to do in the first place.

The order of presentation of the Six Virtues and the Six Impediments is mechanically relevant; the nth Impediment is considered the Opposition of the nth Virtue (as you may notice, however, they are not exact opposites. This will be relevant later on for Discordants.)

General Ascendant Characteristics

When a Mundane Ascends, their physiology changes and they gain certain nonmagical and magical characteristics. This segment covers the things that all Ascendants get, irrespective of their primary Virtue and primary Impediment.

Aging: Mundanes who Ascend before they are 30 years old continue to age at a normal rate until they are 30, then stop there. Mundanes who Ascend after they are 30 years old immediately revert to the appearance they had when they were 30 years old and stay there.

Dying of Old Age: Despite not aging, Ascendants are not immortal. Aside from the fact that they can be killed, they also have a maximum age they cannot go past. Ascendants instantly die either on their 120th birthday or after 10 years of Ascending, whichever is longer (this implies that there exist perfectly normal people on Dorumar who live past 110; this is true, but extremely rare. The average life expectancy, ignoring infant mortality, is around 66).

On-Ascension Anatomical Changes: When someone Ascends, all their anatomical imperfections are instantly fixed. This fix is based both on the general perception of what a human body should be like as well as the perception of the individual Ascendant. Some examples: 1. Missing limbs grow back, although the muscle memory is not automatically restored, so the Ascendant must get that back the hard way. 2. Ascendants who are binary trans will change the entire anatomy of their body to that of the other sex (sort of like how becoming a Knight Radiant works here). 3. Anatomical flaws that are not known to the Ascendant, such as undiscovered tumors or hernias, *do* get fixed. 3. Traits that are considered generally unaesthetic but not pathological only get fixed if the individual Ascendant has a strong aversion to them. For example, given two Ascendants with equally large and blocky noses, one who isn't self-conscious about this and one who is, only the latter will get their nose fixed. 4. Traits that are considered generally inhuman will not get added into the Ascendant's anatomy, regardless of their self-perception. For example, nobody can get a third arm or a third eye when they ascend, regardless of how strongly they believe it should be part of them. 5. Psychiatric pathologies are healed, but mental disorders are not. I know the line is pretty fuzzy here, but for example: Alzheimer's gets healed, chronic depression doesn't. 6. Lost senses are restored, but, just like with missing limbs, the neural connections required to use the senses well must be build up the hard way.

On-Ascension "Aesthetic" Changes: Ascendants gain a minor alteration to their appearance based on their primary Impediment. Coldhearted Ascendants gain pale skin, Akrasiastic Ascendants lose their eyelashes, Impulsive Ascendants gain red irises, Biased Ascendants gain purple lips, Coward Ascendants gain pointy ears, Rebellious Ascendants gain black fingernails.

Metabolic Changes: Ascendants require 50% more food and water than perfectly healthy Mundanes of the same height and weight. They can survive for 33% less time without food or water than a perfectly healthy Mundane of the same height and weight, but the effects of hunger and thirst are less pronounced on them during the process (by "effects" here I mean physiological effects, not psychological effects. A starving Ascendant will be just as hungry, if not even more hungry than an equally starving Mundane, but they will be less somnolent, for example. They will also not experience acid reflux or altered urine). Overeating will not cause an Ascendant to become overweight; however, undereating will cause them to become underweight. Ascendants maintain musculature they build without continuous exercise for longer than Mundanes, but not indefinitely, and the process of building up that musculature in the first place takes equally as long. Ascendants breath about as much air as a perfectly healthy Mundane of the same height and weight, and die from asphyxiation about as fast.

Disease Response: Ascendants are completely immune to all nonmagical bacterial and viral infections. In case of parasites or fungae, the invading organism will be immediately destroyed by the Ascendant's immune system. They are also immune to genetic disorders, cancer, and autoimmune disease. Mental disorders can still affect them normally. Disorders caused by dietetic imbalances can still affect them normally, but correcting the imbalances will lead to 6 times faster healing than a regular person. They are immune to diseases caused by overuse and wear and tear of organs, such as most forms of cardiopathy. They are not immune to diseases caused by substance exposure, however see Blessed Sleep. They are not immune to diseases caused by mechanical damage (whether blunt trauma or piercing) to internal organs, however see Blessed Sleep.

Nonmagical Healing Factor: Ascendants heal 6 times faster than Mundanes. For example, a cut that would take a regular human 6 minutes to stop bleeding would only take an Ascendant 1 minute. This makes some wounds that are short-term fatal to Mundanes become nonfatal for Ascendants, but not most of them. This also applies to poisons: the rate at which a particular poison would do damage to the body of an Ascendant is 1/6th the rate at which it would do damage to a Mundane. Furthermore, the rate at which Ascendants metabolize and neutralize poisons is faster, making the lethal doses required to reliably poison an Ascendant far above the normal LD50 of the substance.

Magical Healing Factor/Blessed Sleep: When an Ascendant sleeps continuously for at least 6 hours, their body is completely healed of any ailment with the exception of magical damage, magical disease, dietary imbalance, undereating, or underdrinking. All of this healing occurs within the last 6 minutes of the 6th hour; no healing happens before this point, but the first 5 hours and 56 minutes are a necessary component. For example, if an Ascendant is woken up 3 hours after they go to sleep, they don't get any benefit from it. Subsequently, if an Ascendant is woken up 8 hours after they go to sleep, there's no downside. While the Blessed Sleep *does* regrow lost limbs, it does so respecting conservation of mass. An Ascendant waking up from a Blessed Sleep during which they, for example, regrew an entire arm, will be and feel extremely malnourished and will starve to death unless fed quickly. If, due to conservation of mass, the amount of limbs and organs an Ascendant needs to regrow would kill him, the healing will be incomplete, and full healing will require subsequent feeding and Sleeps. If an Ascendant has suffered enough bodily damage to die from it within less than 6 hours, the Blessed Sleep cannot save them. If an Ascendant is healed of brain damage during a Blessed Sleep, they cannot develop disorders or lose mental functions as a result, but they may lose certain memories or skills. There is nothing especially difficult about waking up Ascendants, simply entering the Blessed Sleep does not confer one any particular protections from being woken up (and no, painkillers and anesthetics won't help much either, because of the aforementioned fast metabolizing). With the exception of the Blessed Sleep, an Ascendant doesn't actively need any sleep, but many Ascendants choose to sleep anyway, as it feels nice.

Memory: Information that Ascendants commit to long-term memory decays 6 times slower than it does for Mundanes. However, in terms of how fast they can learn, in terms of how much they remember without actively trying to memorize, and in terms of short-term memory, Ascendants are about on par with healthy Mundanes.

Senses: Ascendants can perceive Outsiders in the normal case (It is a characteristic of most Outsiders that they can choose to only show themselves to whoever they want, or render themselves inconspicuous. THIS is what Ascendants have the ability to see through. However, some Outsiders have straight up invisibility powers, and those do work on Ascendants just fine.) Ascendants can also, while making direct eye contact with someone else, sense whether that person is a Mundane, Ascendant, or Outsider, and, if they are an Ascendant, determine their primary Virtue and primary Impediment. Ascendants can also sense whether magic is actively being used nearby or whether they are inside an Aura, but don't get a clear sense of direction or type (The feeling is indistinct, so Ascendants cannot "train" this sense to get more information; this is more like Saidin sensing than Allomantic Bronze). In terms of their nonmagical senses, Ascendants are neither better nor worse than perfectly healthy Mundanes, aside from the fact that their senses don't decay. (or, to be more precise, they do technically decay a bit, but all the decay is fixed during Blessed Sleep)

Reproduction: Ascendants have normal levels of fertility. Children born from the union of an Ascendant and a Mundane, or two Ascendants, are indistinguishable from Mundane children with one exception: if the mother was Ascendant, the child will be born without birth defects.

Random Meme Weakness: Potatoes are fatally toxic to Ascendants, killing them after the ingestion of about 5 grams. (I'm not sure I'm keeping this. It somehow spawned on my text document during brainstorming and I just shrugged and kept it there just in case. If I'm keeping it, it doesn't have to be potato specific, but I'd probably keep it food specific.)

Concordant Specific Characteristics

An Ascendant's type is determined by their primary Virtue (the Virtue they have in a higher population-percentile than their other five) and their primary Impediment (the Impediment they have in a higher population-percentile than their other five). An Ascendant's type is permanently locked in when they Ascend, so even if their personality changes over time, their type stays the same (it's not uncommon for an Ascendant to act "off-type" after a couple decades as all people are capable of growth, Mundane or Ascendant, but it's not the norm; again, god is not omniscient, but he's pretty good at what he does). However, an Ascendant's power level is NOT locked in; the strength of their Blessing does vary over time depending on the population-percentile height of their Virtue (the strength of their Limiter doesn't, since Limiters are general purpose). Ascendants whose primary Virtue and primary Impediment are not in Opposition are called Concordants. Concordants gain a Blessing depending on the Virtue and a Limiter depending on the Impediment.

<Blessings>

Altruism (Blessing of Restoration): Allows the Ascendant to cast healing spells. Works on both animals as well as plant life. Some Ascendants with this blessing can restore inorganic matter as well but it's extremely rare.

Diligence (Blessing of Momentum): Allows the Ascendant to cast telekinesis spells. Telekinesis spells are generally centered around proportional translation of the caster's efforts in one place or onto one object towards another place or onto another object. (think Discworld wizardry or Kingkiller sympathy). Telekinesis is both kinetic as well as thermal.

Serenity (Blessing of Pause): Allows the Ascendant to alter the flow of time. Slowing it down is much easier than speeding it up, and speeding it up is much easier than reverting it.

Clarity (Blessing of the Real): Allows the Ascendant to break and create illusions. Powerful enough Ascendants with this Blessing can create solid illusions with real effects even on people who know they're illusions, but this is very rare.

Courage (Blessing of Might): Allows the Ascendant to cast temporary buffs to the physical attributes, endurance, and stamina of themselves and others.

Devotion (Blessing of Connection): Allows the Ascendant to learn about things and people by touching them, communicate telepathically, and even broadcast their or others' thoughts.

<Limiters>

Coldheartedness (Limiter of Confinement): Renders the Ascendant immune from positive magic, both cast by themselves as well as others. What qualifies as positive magic is any spell which both the caster and the Limited unanimously consider to be beneficial. For example, if an Ascendant intentionally breaks their own leg in order to pretend to be a cripple to spy on a crowd, and another Ascendant passes by, sees the first Ascendant, and decides to heal them out of pity, the heal won't work. However, if the intent of the second Ascendant was to screw with the first Ascendant's disguise, the heal *will* work. This limiter doesn't care about hindsight: for example, if the Ascendant sees the spell as positive now, but has reasons to change their mind in the future upon gaining new information, it's still considered positive magic by the Limiter.

Akrasia (Limiter of Routine): Ascendants with this Limiter must choose an activity, to be performed daily, for at least 30 minutes, at a fixed time interval. In order for this activity to count, it must meet the following three prerequisites: 1. It must be obnoxious to the Ascendant. 2. It must be viewed as productive by the Ascendant. 3. It must be performed well by the Ascendant's honest standards. Failing to perform the activity for a day will render the Ascendant incapable of using magic until the next opportunity they have to perform the activity. (When an Ascendant is incapable of using magic, that disables their Blessing, but their ability to use Blessed Sleep and their Magical Senses are still intact.) Even if an Ascendant keeps properly engaging in the activity, if the activity stops meeting prerequisites (it stops being seen as productive, or it stops being seen as obnoxious to perform, or it stops being performed well), the Ascendant will lose their powers until they choose a new activity.

Impulsivity (Limiter of Forethought): Normally, Ascendants don't have to "prep" their spells, they just cast and it either works or it doesn't. Ascendants with this Limiter are special: they must deliberately think they want to use magic in order to use it, then wait six full minutes, then use it. Six minutes after they stop using magic, they go back to being incapable of using magic without a new six minute primer.

Bias (Limiter of Disagreement): Renders others immune from this Ascendant's magic as long as they do not want to be affected by it. This is both more and less limiting than Confinement. It's more limiting in the sense that it doesn't require unanimity, the opinion of the target is singularly relevant, but less limiting in the sense that the refusal to be affected must be conscious: if the target is taken by surprise, the magic will temporarily work even if they wouldn't want to be affected in principle, and if the target is unaware magic is being performed on them, the magic may work indefinitely.

Cowardice (Limiter of Risk): Whenever an Ascendant with this limiter casts a spell, they have a 0.6% chance to instantly die. No amount of healing spells or endurance enhancing spells can prevent this or lower the odds.

Rebelliousness (Limiter of Command): Spells cast by this Ascendant in the normal case are performed at only 50% power level. For the Ascendant to cast normally, they must be told by someone else to cast the particular spell. The Ascendant telling someone else to tell them to cast a particular spell does not circumvent this Limiter, but the Ascendant telling someone else that they have the Limiter but letting them give orders uninfluenced afterwards does.

Discordant Specific Characteristics

Ascendants whose primary Virtue and primary Impediment are in Opposition are called Discordants. Discordants gain the Limiter associated with their Impediment normally, but instead of gaining the Blessing associated with their Virtue, they gain an entirely different ability (think of it as a Resonance, except the Resonance is so strong it deletes the base ability), detailed below. Concordant Ascendant types are named by listing off their traits (for example, an Ascendant whose primary Virtue is Altruism and primary Impediment is Bias is called an Altruistic Biased Ascendant) whereas Discordant Ascendant types have specific "class" names, detailed below. Discordant Ascendants are much more rare than Concordant Ascendants.

Altruism + Coldheartedness (Warden): Instead of having healing magic, Wardens can place Wards on others. A Ward is an enchantment that requires a specific condition to be met, either on the relationship between the Warden and the target or the mental characteristics of the target. In order to place a Ward, the Warden must select a target and then select the specific Ward they want to place. The Warden doesn't automatically know if the target meets the prerequisite of the Ward before casting. If he attempts to cast a Ward on an ineligible target, he will become incapable of using magic for six hours. There are many Wards, here are some examples: Ward of Martyrdom: The target is engulfed in a force field that will massively electrocute anyone trying to hurt them. The prerequisite of this Ward is that the Warden must be willing to die to save the life of the target. Ward of Allegiance: The target gains resistance to mind-affecting magic. The prerequisite of this Ward is that the Warden must have similar political views to the target. Ward of Brotherhood: The target gains all the nonmagical benefits of being an Ascendant without actually Ascending for the duration of the Ward. The prerequisite of this Ward is that the target genuinely likes and cares about the Warden. etc. A Warden may have multiple Wards on the same target. A Warden may disable his own Wards at any time, either individually or all at once. The strength of Wards as well as the maximum number of active Wards a Warden can have simultaneously both depend on his power level. Since all Wards are considered positive magic by default, a Warden can never Ward himself or another Warden, because of the Limiter of Confinement.

Diligence + Akrasia (Delegator): Instead of having telekinesis, Delegators can create magical servants to perform tasks. This is very similar to Nalthis Awakening, except instead of infusing inorganic matter the Delegator is creating force-based things from thin air. A magical servant cannot perform a task that the Delegator himself lacks either the strength, intelligence, or skill to perform, but a multitude of magical servants working in tandem can (although this is very difficult). A Delegator may disable his own magical servants at any time. Both the number of magical servants as well as the complexity of their tasks depend on the power level of the Delegator. A Delegator is not allowed to create any magical servants tasked with doing the same activity as the one used for his Limiter, nor is he allowed to choose "create magical servants" as the activity for his Limiter, EVEN IF it meets the 3 prerequisites.

Serenity + Impulsivity (Stillminds): Instead of having time magic, Stillminds can lock themselves and others in illusory mental loops wherein they have to repeat a choice or sequence of events until either the end result is satisfactory and guiltless to the one trapped, or the one trapped genuinely comes to the conclusion that they shouldn't make the choice, or a maximum amount of time elapses. (this is similar to the Izanami jutsu in Naruto, except it additionally has the third way out). After the target gets out of the illusion, through whatever means, they become immune to the magic of Stillminds for 6 hours. Both the number of people that can be trapped simultaneously as well as the maximum amount of time of the trap depend on the power level of the Stillmind. Strategic note: because of the Limiter of Forethought, Stillmind magic is quite tricky to use in combat, and nigh-impossible to use when ambushed.

Clarity + Bias (Devils): This is exactly what you think it is. Instead of illusion magic, Devils gain the ability to establish binding contracts between themselves and others. The nature of what can be obtained through those contracts is far-reaching, and dependent on the power level of the Devil. Strategic note: because of the Limiter of Disagreement, targets can always back out of a contract before they sign. Once they sign, however, the Limiter of Disagreement is overruled. Strategic note two: once again, because of the Limiter of Disagreement, only the signatories of the contract are bound by Devil magic. You can't, for example, have a contract of the form "I give you 1000 dollars. Give them back to me with 20% interest within a week or your wife will die." It wouldn't do anything. Failure of the target to comply to the terms of a contract can have a plethora of negative consequences for the target, but the magnitude of the consequences depends on the power level of the Devil. For example, the vast majority of Devils don't have a high enough power level to use "You die." as a failure to comply clause. Strategic note three: because of the technical consensual nature of contract magic, Devils cannot make deals with anyone with a Limiter of Confinement, as it is considered positive magic, regardless of the contents of the contract. Strategic note four: Devils automatically know when one of their contracts is broken, and which that is, so even if they're not powerful enough to enforce failure to comply clauses, they can still use contracts as an information gathering tool by using this effect. Strategic note five: Yes, the irony of this type having the most notes and tangents does not escape me.

Courage + Cowardice (Flickers): Instead of temporary physical buffs, Flickers are able to use any spell accessible to any Ascendant type of any Blessing or Discordant Class. The catch is that instead of a 0.6% chance of instantly dying on-cast, it's 6% for them. They're called Flickers because their lives tend to be rather short but also rather explosive (both in terms of impact as well as sometimes in terms of... actual explosions). Power level affects Flickers in the same way that it would affect a particular Ascendant who is casting a spell because it actually belongs to their Blessing or Discordant Class.

Devotion + Rebelliousness (Custodians): Instead of information gathering and minor telepathy, Custodians have the ability to create Demesnes. A Demesne is an area where the collective consensus of the people inside has a reality bending effect on the properties of the area. A Custodian's power level affects the maximum size Demesnes can be (the minimum size is whatever the Custodian wants) as well as how extremely internal conditions in a Demesne can deviate from baseline reality. The power level does NOT affect the number of Demesnes a Custodian can maintain at any given time, that's always one. The Custodian himself is part of the collective consensus deciding how reality should behave in the area, but he is not privileged: his will has just as much influence as anyone else's. The way Custodian magic interacts with the Limiter of Command is that a Demesne will be twice as weak if at least half the people who were there when it was created didn't tell him to create it; only one person making the call is insufficient to appease the Limiter.

 

Welp, that was a wide ride. Let me know what y'all think.

 

 

Edited by CryoZenith
Spoilered for length
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My main concern is simplification of exposition vs simplification of execution. In other words, the goal of any fantasy novel (even a novel in which worldbuilding IS the main selling point) is to deliver the plot. For the most part, the worldbuilding should be gleaned from what is happening, rather than directly described by characters talking about it. So, naturally, in terms of exposition, the readers don't get all the details, and they don't need to (the details mainly being in the background for the writer to make sure he's not oopsing anything. For example, in Stormlight Archive, we never get told in-story what is the circumference and density of Roshar, but Brando does have exact numbers for those stored somewhere because they're necessary for cross reference). Simplification of *execution* is an entirely different beast though - when, for the sake of improving the plot, you actually have to change the *mechanics*. I don't know if I would have to do that for Dorumar but I suspect I might have to.

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As to if its too complex, it might be a bit. It also greatly depends on the scale of what you’re writing. If your’e writing one 100,000 word standalone, then its probably a bit much. If its for something longer, like a series/trilogy or a very chonky book, then its more normal. Of course, I’d encourage that you write what you want to write. If you want to write something with big complex worldbuilding, then write it. Warning though, don’t get caught up in worldbuilder’s disease, the disease of continually planing and worldbuilding and never actually writing it. But yeah, one piece of advice, you can also divide all your notes into: “stuff that is important to the plot and characters that I’ll need to tell the readers”, and then have the “cool worldbuilding stuff that I can throw in or not, if I have time, but helps me understand the world on an intimate level.”

(also, maybe put your original post in a spoiler box for length) 

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@#1 Taln Fan The plan is for this to be a standalone, but more on the range of ~250'000 words rather than 100'000. Great suggestion in making a clear separation between the elements I actively plan on making plot points around and ones that are just there for personal consistency, will help greatly with my tidiness.

Also thanks for the advice of spoilering for length. For some reason it didn't cross my mind :)) fixed.

@Channelknight Fadran I'm all ears.

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Yeah if its a big chunky standalone then it won’t be too chunky if you only use select parts. There’s the old illustration of picturing your worldbuilding as an iceberg. You can see part of the iceberg, but a lot of it is underwater and unseen. But its the part that you can crash into, above the water, that’s important.

Also have to be wary of having the beginning being a big infodump

Edited by #1 Taln Fan
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My general plan for the relationship between in-world character knowledge and magic in this setting is that it's pretty well understood. Like, the requirements for Ascending are actually challenging but not SUPER hard. To give an educated guess, a solid 15% or so of the world population is "Worthy" enough to Ascend. The actual number who try is much lower than that, because of the entire "you have only one chance to petition so make sure you're the real deal"  thing, but it's not an entire order of magnitude lower. So the number of Ascended is large enough and the number of Mundanes who know of them is large enough that it's pretty much "common knowledge".

And "common knowledge" is not something you go get lectures about, usually. Someone on Dorumar infodumping about the magic system would be equivalent to someone on Earth infodumping about basic arithmetic. So aside from the "quality of writing" reasons, I have in-world reasons to avoid infodumps.

Edited by CryoZenith
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I think there's definitely a lot of potential here, and I love the magic system. I don't it's too complex, per se, but I think the key will be being very selective about what to include explicitly. I know you talked about the magic system being on the level of basic arithmetic, but I think it might be more helpful to introduce the world/magic system through a character that is uninformed about how the whole thing works. it gives the audience something to latch onto and identify with, and it forces you to figure out what are the most essential parts.

You'll have to think through what someone totally new to your world, i.e. the reader, is confused about, and what questions they will ask. That will help you sift through things I think. For example, a newcomer might feel that the one-chance-to-ascend thing is unjust, but not ever think to ask about whether a 112-year-old ascendent lives to 120 or 122. It's such a great magic system, and I can't wait to see what you do with it! I don't know where you want to go storywise, or if you've even gotten there yet, but regardless, I'm on the edge of my seat.

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6 minutes ago, caminante_blanco said:

I think there's definitely a lot of potential here, and I love the magic system. I don't it's too complex, per se, but I think the key will be being very selective about what to include explicitly. I know you talked about the magic system being on the level of basic arithmetic, but I think it might be more helpful to introduce the world/magic system through a character that is uninformed about how the whole thing works. it gives the audience something to latch onto and identify with, and it forces you to figure out what are the most essential parts.

I think this is a polarizing taste-based thing. Some people have fun with being thrown in the middle of the action without context, other people prefer going slow and steady. I had a friend to whom I recommended Way of Kings, they got off put by how *immediately aggro* the beginning is with the whole Szeth scene without context, I pleaded to them to keep going because they will like the book, they DID eventually admit, after finishing the book, that they liked it, but even after finishing the book, they still said they didn't like how it began. That's just... a them's the breaks sort of situation. Of course, if you can avoid a polarizing technique for free, you should, but it's definitely harder in settings where "magic isn't mysterious". One way I could do this without a literal verbal lesson is with a training montage. Describing how one of the main characters mentally prepares to petition. "show, don't tell" if you may.

Quote

You'll have to think through what someone totally new to your world, i.e. the reader, is confused about, and what questions they will ask. That will help you sift through things I think. For example, a newcomer might feel that the one-chance-to-ascend thing is unjust, but not ever think to ask about whether a 112-year-old ascendent lives to 120 or 122.

Haha, great intuition! I do have one of my main characters having that exact concern (about god being unfair for making petitioning single-try). I have the reason in my notes, but didn't think about how they'll find out yet.

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I agree with the polarizing effect that being thrown in can have. It's definitely something that has to be balanced against how cool it is to feel immersed in a massive world like the one you've written. I definitely don't think you NEED to have a clueless type character, I just think that it would be helpful to go through the kinds of questions you would need to write for them, so you could get a better feel for what the audience might want to know. You can then answer those questions in ways that are less blunt and clunky than would be possible with a newbie character, but you'll still know what questions to answer.

I think the one-chance idea is a great one. I can see some great character struggles around that issue. My vote is for keeping it :)

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It's an issue of breaking suspension of disbelief, essentially. In a world where magic is commonplace and accessible by a decent chunk of the population, and that chunk of the population is generously dishing out their talents to the community (which is what tends to happen when being a nice person is basically the requirement to become magical in the first place) the existence of an in-world character who is clueless about the magic is a pretty big question mark. Like, if you were reading a book taking place during post-Catacendre Scadrial, and you saw a scene with someone genuinely confused, asking why people are drinking shavings of metal, you wouldn't think "This is fine". You would think "This is probably a worldhopper right".

Yep, that is the literary-device-reason for the one-chance nature of petitioning. To give me a convenient tool for exploring character struggles and especially things such as self-confidence and guilt. The in-world mechanical reason has more to do with the theme of "don't forget, this word's god is a god with lowercase g".

Spoiler

Let's just say that the reason why petitioning is one-chance is the same as the reason why the god didn't give *any* magic to the people of Dorumar before the portals started opening. :3

 

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What happens if someone acsends, changes in ohysical form, but then decides they don't like it. Say they had a big nose all their life, and it shrinks to normal sizes, but now they keep looking at where their nose use to be and thinking how weird it is, would that heal back or would that require blessed sleep?

 

I would say keep the numbers out of the story, as specific numbers wmay bog down your writing.

Also definetly keep the potato weakness.

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18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What happens if someone acsends, changes in ohysical form, but then decides they don't like it. Say they had a big nose all their life, and it shrinks to normal sizes, but now they keep looking at where their nose use to be and thinking how weird it is, would that heal back or would that require blessed sleep?

Depends on the intensity of the dislike. If it's along the lines of "meh, in hindsight I liked it better the old way, but them's the breaks" then nothing happens. If it's along the lines of full blown body dysmorphia, then the nose will be reverted during that Ascendant's next Blessed Sleep.

Basically, healing on Dorumar has a strong cognitive component, but that doesn't exactly mean it's very easy to mindgame through mind tricks and rationalizations. There must be a genuine, heartfelt, and strong disconnect between the Ascendant's self-perception and real appearance.

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I would say keep the numbers out of the story, as specific numbers wmay bog down your writing.

Yeah I view it pretty much the way I view Roshar's gravitation. In Stormlight Archive it's simply described as "weaker than normal"; you have to actively go to the Arcanum to actually get the number "0.7 g" in writing. Numbers aren't relevant unless they are (well Dorumar has a strong theme with the number 6 and multiples of 6, as you may have noticed, but it'd be annoying to the reader to constantly bring that up. Over-indulgence is truly an Impediment of writers haha.)

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Also definetly keep the potato weakness.

I... can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, sorry :'D.

Edited by CryoZenith
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2 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

Depends on the intensity of the dislike. If it's along the lines of "meh, in hindsight I liked it better the old way, but them's the breaks" then nothing happens. If it's along the lines of full blown body dysmorphia, then the nose will be reverted during that Ascendant's next Blessed Sleep.

Basically, healing on Dorumar has a strong cognitive component, but that doesn't exactly mean it's very easy to mindgame through mind tricks and rationalizations. There must be a genuine, heartfelt, and strong disconnect between the Ascendant's self-perception and real appearance.

any particular reason for that or do you like the way it works?

both are fine, jusr wondering

5 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I... can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, sorry :'D.

I find it really funny and potatoes deserve more love in fantasy, rice and wheat get all the attention, potatoes get Sam and Gollum talking about them, the potatoes need more.

So yes I really would like that, and as long as it's not treated like a meme it should work well.

Or I'm really tired and not making any sense, that could be it to.

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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

any particular reason for that or do you like the way it works?

Basically, what constitutes magical healing for Ascendants is limited to Blessing of Restoration spells, Blessed Sleep, and Flicker shenaningans. Aside from those things, Ascendants are basically just humans with an extraordinary (but nonmagical) healing factor of x6 (don't think of them as Radiants). A regular human can't think themselves into having a bigger nose, so an Ascendant can't either through normal means, because 0 effect times 6 still equals 0 effect.

Oh, you just reminded me of something I didn't clarify in the OP. Ascendants aren't *actually* immune to aging. They do age at a normal rate, but Blessed Sleep heals all the oxidative stress and senescence, so it looks like natural agelessness. They don't *know* this in-world, because for an Ascendant to notice this they would have to spend several years in a row without ever going to sleep for 6+ hours, which nobody does.

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I find it really funny and potatoes deserve more love in fantasy, rice and wheat get all the attention, potatoes get Sam and Gollum talking about them, the potatoes need more.

So yes I really would like that, and as long as it's not treated like a meme it should work well.

That's so interesting! Thanks for the perspective.

Edited by CryoZenith
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