Bands of Mourning Observations

[Duxredux]

Hi all, I listened to the Medallions of South Scadrial podcast recently and had a few observations about the book that I haven't been able to find addressed, though it's possible it's in the forums and I just haven't found it from searching. In no particular order, here goes:

First, kandra generally don't know how to access the metallic arts other than what they get from their blessings, with the exception of Paalm, right? Except, apparently MeLaan can use the weight medallions. Apparently this doesn't interfere with her blessings (at least in these numbers), so Southern tech can grant Feruchemy and presumably Allomancy to kandra without having to resort to a Trellium spike. That's pretty neat, and it's just glossed over in the concept that everyone can get these powers now, but I think that's a non-trivial point considering how effective Bleeder was at doing things.

Second, the ettmetal Allomantic grenade was odd to me, also in what I consider a significant way. When Wax charged the grenade and threw it, this little cube would throw presumably much heavier guns and equipment aside in its path, not following the usual Newtonian physics we see in Pushes and Pulls in which I would have expected the cube to get deflected from the much heavier weapons sometimes held in soldier's hands. No one in the books comments on this being odd, but it confused me for quite some time. We've seen Steel pushes and Iron pulls work on most metals, even Atium quite readily, while having problems "sensing" heavily invested metals such as metalminds and the Bands of Mourning. I seem to recall Brandon saying that he wishes he had done Atium differently if he had known how the Cosmere was going to develop, and I wonder if Atium would have also been resistant to Pushing and Pulling. Moving on, my theory is that this wasn't an error on the part of the physics of the Allomantic grenade, but that Pushes and Pulls are not using only physical mass in their calculation but more an "Invested mass". A godmetal with a presumably higher Investiture density Pushing against the ordinary metal weapons could push with more strength perhaps. 

Third, an aspect of the medallions that I don't get. Why can multiple people store weight in the medallions? Does their Identity not matter in process of storing in the metal, or is this a weird aspect of the construction of the medallions? Alternately, is this just an aspect of Feruchemy that has never come up, that multiple people can store attributes in a metalmind, but they could only withdraw their own storage? It seems odd to me, where I can see withdrawing from an unkeyed mind would work just fine, but I'm not sure on storing in an unkeyed mind.

Fourth, at the end, presumably Kelsier stores a memory in a copper medallion. So... whatever mechanism that they are doing with the medallions allows copper memory storage that other people can access (which revolutionizes information storage), or it means that Kelsier has gained at least a Copper Ferring's abilities right?

Fifth, another thing that seems highly relevant: Wax and Marasi were able to use the Bands of Mourning. Either from the mechanics of creating them, some aspect of Identity and time that I don't know about, or whatever, for some reason the Bands of Mourning were not Keyed to Kelsier. If Kelsier wanted to make a weapon for himself to reclaim that happened to be a metalmind that he could use, why not make it keyed through Identity to himself? Unless it always a test and he actually meant for someone to find something that powerful on the doorstep to his temple.

[Duxredux]

And as a separate post on my favorite crackpot theory I've come up with for what Kelsier has been doing on Scadrial with the Bands of Mourning.

My theory is that Kelsier is trying to steal/subvert the Prophecy of the Hero of Ages so that it can apply to himself. Why make the Bands and have the iconography of the Bands? Here's the Terris prophecies and I think nearly all of them can apply to Kelsier:

“The Hero of Ages shall be not a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself. ”

—^[19]

Not sure on the "belong to none, not even himself" part, but he's not really a man anymore as a cognitive shadow.

“He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. ”

—^[20]

That's pretty much Kelsier in a nutshell.

“That which has been sundered must again begin to find its whole ”

—^[21]

This one in particular is cool as a cognitive shadow gaining ties back to the physical realm

“The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it. ”

—^[1]

“The Hero will bear the future of the world on his arms. ”

—^[1] [22]

“The Hero of Ages was not simply to be a warrior. He was a person who united others, who brought them together. A leader. ”

—^[17]

Kelsier, yup, again.

“The Hero of Ages was removed from the Terris people. He was not royalty himself, but came to it eventually. ”

—^[17]

Wasn't royalty, but now the Sovereign.

“He commanded the forces of the world. Kings rode to his aid. ”

—^[17]

“He left ruin in his wake, but it was forgotten. He created kingdoms, and then destroyed them as he made the world anew. ”

—^[17]

“...One who is separated from the Terris people, a king of men, a rebel caught between two worlds. ”

—^[15]

“He who is not of his people, yet fulfills all of their wishes. ”

—^[16]

Edited January 14, 2022 by Duxredux

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Hi all, I listened to the Medallions of South Scadrial podcast recently and had a few observations about the book that I haven't been able to find addressed, though it's possible it's in the forums and I just haven't found it from searching. In no particular order, here goes:

First, kandra generally don't know how to access the metallic arts other than what they get from their blessings, with the exception of Paalm, right? Except, apparently MeLaan can use the weight medallions. Apparently this doesn't interfere with her blessings (at least in these numbers), so Southern tech can grant Feruchemy and presumably Allomancy to kandra without having to resort to a Trellium spike. That's pretty neat, and it's just glossed over in the concept that everyone can get these powers now, but I think that's a non-trivial point considering how effective Bleeder was at doing things.

Kandra dont know the secret to making Blessings, so they only have access to the ones that The Lord Ruler made for them.  They know or presume it's possible, but dont have any that offer it or any way to make more. But that's about accessing it by the rules of Hemalurgy.  Medallions are a Feruchemy-based tech that uses different mechanisms. 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Second, the ettmetal Allomantic grenade was odd to me, also in what I consider a significant way. When Wax charged the grenade and threw it, this little cube would throw presumably much heavier guns and equipment aside in its path, not following the usual Newtonian physics we see in Pushes and Pulls in which I would have expected the cube to get deflected from the much heavier weapons sometimes held in soldier's hands. No one in the books comments on this being odd, but it confused me for quite some time. We've seen Steel pushes and Iron pulls work on most metals, even Atium quite readily, while having problems "sensing" heavily invested metals such as metalminds and the Bands of Mourning. I seem to recall Brandon saying that he wishes he had done Atium differently if he had known how the Cosmere was going to develop, and I wonder if Atium would have also been resistant to Pushing and Pulling. Moving on, my theory is that this wasn't an error on the part of the physics of the Allomantic grenade, but that Pushes and Pulls are not using only physical mass in their calculation but more an "Invested mass". A godmetal with a presumably higher Investiture density Pushing against the ordinary metal weapons could push with more strength perhaps. 

Id have to go back and read that scene, but your explanation makes sense to me.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Third, an aspect of the medallions that I don't get. Why can multiple people store weight in the medallions? Does their Identity not matter in process of storing in the metal, or is this a weird aspect of the construction of the medallions? Alternately, is this just an aspect of Feruchemy that has never come up, that multiple people can store attributes in a metalmind, but they could only withdraw their own storage? It seems odd to me, where I can see withdrawing from an unkeyed mind would work just fine, but I'm not sure on storing in an unkeyed mind.

Unclear I think, if only because we dont know the full details of the UnSealed Medallions (and the Excisors that are required), but there are options that would work.  Assuming the medallion function doesnt have Identity implications beyond what we have confirmed, all it would take for that is for the people storing to be blanking their Identity, so the Shared Medallion would need to be a Two-power Medallion that grants F-Aluminum as well as whatever Ability they want to pool.  This ensures that the Metalminds being filled are still UnKeyed.  

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Fourth, at the end, presumably Kelsier stores a memory in a copper medallion. So... whatever mechanism that they are doing with the medallions allows copper memory storage that other people can access (which revolutionizes information storage), or it means that Kelsier has gained at least a Copper Ferring's abilities right?

It was an UnSealed Copper medallion, anyone could store or retrieve from it.  How Hoid got one of Kelsiers memories (and such a suspiciously significant one at that) is a different story; I suspect COmpounding Copper will make copies of the Memory, and that one is intended as something of a Ghostblood recruiting tool. 

It's worth noting that Kelsier is the one that gave Medallion tech ot the Southern Scadrians in the first place and made the Bands, so he has access to tricks we dont fully understand.  With some convoluted steps and a feruchemist friend it's possible he could collect all he would need. 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Fifth, another thing that seems highly relevant: Wax and Marasi were able to use the Bands of Mourning. Either from the mechanics of creating them, some aspect of Identity and time that I don't know about, or whatever, for some reason the Bands of Mourning were not Keyed to Kelsier. If Kelsier wanted to make a weapon for himself to reclaim that happened to be a metalmind that he could use, why not make it keyed through Identity to himself? Unless it always a test and he actually meant for someone to find something that powerful on the doorstep to his temple.

You cannot use two medallions at once, and you have to Blank the Identity or not when you fill it.  So he could not fill all 32 powers keyed to himself unless he was himself a Fullborn (which he most likely is not).  

[Duxredux]

 

44 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Kandra dont know the secret to making Blessings, so they only have access to the ones that The Lord Ruler made for them.  They know or presume it's possible, but dont have any that offer it or any way to make more. But that's about accessing it by the rules of Hemalurgy.  Medallions are a Feruchemy-based tech that uses different mechanisms. 

I didn't think Kandra could use Allomancy or Feruchemy, that their Blessings were an entirely different power set right? My point is just that they now can use Feruchemy and Allomancy through tech, where previously we had only seen that through a Trellium spike. I think the Kandra would be very interested in that potential without having to go insane. Also, anything post Bands of Mourning, Kandra might be Allomancers or Feruchemists. 

46 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Unclear I think, if only because we dont know the full details of the UnSealed Medallions (and the Excisors that are required), but there are options that would work.  Assuming the medallion function doesnt have Identity implications beyond what we have confirmed, all it would take for that is for the people storing to be blanking their Identity, so the Shared Medallion would need to be a Two-power Medallion that grants F-Aluminum as well as whatever Ability they want to pool.  This ensures that the Metalminds being filled are still UnKeyed.  

I don't think each F-storage medallions works like that from what we've seen. When we see this type of weight storage so far, it's been F-Iron + F-Duralumin or F-Iron + F-Brass, right? We've seen these medallions with 2 Feruchemical abilities beyond F-Aluminum, so would these be Three-power medallions? I thought those were really rare, not something I would expect to be standard issue on an airship (though technically all of these "Two-power" medallions have nicrosil). I could be wrong though, but I would expect to see at least some sort of change in a person actively storing Identity, but I didn't pick up anything like that at all from Wax and friends. It's why I'm still not sure how Feruchemical storage works on these things. Which is part of my confusion with the remaining questions.

[Trusk'our]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:48 AM, Quantus said:

You cannot use two medallions at once, and you have to Blank the Identity or not when you fill it.  So he could not fill all 32 powers keyed to himself unless he was himself a Fullborn (which he most likely is not).  

If Kelsier isn't a Fullborn, then how would he have made the Bands of Mourning? The biggest number of powers it's been confirmed you can put into Unsealed Metalminds via the Exisors is three. So how would have Kel done this if he wasn't a Fullborn already?

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think we know enough. It's certainly suggested he was a Fullborn, but how could he get 16 Feruchemy powers from just one spike?

[Trusk'our]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think we know enough. It's certainly suggested he was a Fullborn, but how could he get 16 Feruchemy powers from just one spike?

He might have gained Feruchemy using the method that the ancient Terris did. He did ascend temporarily, so he would have gained some knowledge in this area most likely. 

I believe that the reason he has the spike in his eye is to staple his spiritweb to his body, not necessarily to gain Feruchemical power.

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, possible, I guess - depending on what that original method was. I was assuming direct gift from Preservation, so wouldn't have been available to Kelsier post-giving the Shard to Vin, but if it's something more analogous to becoming Mistborn via lerasium, totally possible.

[Trusk'our]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, possible, I guess - depending on what that original method was. I was assuming direct gift from Preservation, so wouldn't have been available to Kelsier post-giving the Shard to Vin, but if it's something more analogous to becoming Mistborn via lerasium, totally possible.

I thought that it was Allomancers who had power granted via Preservation, and that Feruchemists had an equal balance of Preservation and Ruin; I don't know that Preservation can make someone a Feruchemist, direct action or not. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:38 PM, Trusk'our said:

I thought that it was Allomancers who had power granted via Preservation, and that Feruchemists had an equal balance of Preservation and Ruin; I don't know that Preservation can make someone a Feruchemist, direct action or not. 

The power (Investiture) used in Allomancy comes from Preservation, sure, and Feruchemy is self-powered.

But the Feruchemy "Spiritual gene" had to come from somewhere.

And the Terris were originally worshipers of Preservation. And Feruchemy was the only one of the Metallic Arts known before the Preservation/Ruin conflict "came to a head", ie while Preservation was still fully alive/sane.

I think that suggests Preservation as the source, otherwise why would the one population worshiping him be the one with magical powers?

[Trusk'our]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The power (Investiture) used in Allomancy comes from Preservation, sure, and Feruchemy is self-powered.

But the Feruchemy "Spiritual gene" had to come from somewhere.

And the Terris were originally worshipers of Preservation. And Feruchemy was the only one of the Metallic Arts known before the Preservation/Ruin conflict "came to a head", ie while Preservation was still fully alive/sane.

I think that suggests Preservation as the source, otherwise why would the one population worshiping him be the one with magical powers?

I suppose that makes sense. I just thought that it was a combination of Preservation and Ruin that made the Feruchemists.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:28 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, possible, I guess - depending on what that original method was. I was assuming direct gift from Preservation, so wouldn't have been available to Kelsier post-giving the Shard to Vin, but if it's something more analogous to becoming Mistborn via lerasium, totally possible.

There is a way to become a Feruchemist with Scadrian Godmetals.

[Anomander Rake]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is a way to become a Feruchemist with Scadrian Godmetals.

Not just a Feruchemist!  It is pretty much all but confirmed that an alloy of lerasium + X god metal will connect you to that shard and their magic system, though as the following WoB implies it might be a bit more complex than just burning the alloy.

Spoiler

Yoitsthew

Would a Lerasium/Atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!!

Brandon Sanderson

You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020)

The most relevant one, but the other below also support this

Spoiler

Snarlezz

What's the incentive of alloying lerasium and becoming a misting when you could just burn it normal and be a Mistborn?

AltF4WillHelp

My guess is that you'd presumably you'd use less of it? Also, arguably, not every way of using a magic is going to be the most optimal way.

It's probably just a way that lerasium can work. If you alloy it or somehow mix it with things from other systems, it's quite possible you'd end up getting those magics instead, because it'd Connect you more strongly to a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

The replies to this are correct.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

Spoiler

Stormlightning

If Hoid was to get his hands on "bavadinium," could he alloy it with lerasium and get Sand Mastery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)