Theories about why Hemalurgy Hurts your Spiritweb, and How to Fix That

[Trusk'our]

As someone who thinks about how interesting and diverse the system of Hemalurgy is, I have tried on multiple occasions to figure out ways to overcome it's limitations. In order to do that most effectively though, we would have to know what causes this problem in the first place. Unfortunately, we don't know what it is for certain yet, but here are some theories I and others came up with.

1. (this particular theory was made by the 17th Sharder, Pathfinder) The Identity of the spiritweb held within the Hemalurgic spikes causes damage to the spiritweb of the recipient because their own Identity isn't compatible with that of the donor.

2. The holes created in your spiritweb by Hemalurgic spikes are a fundamental requirement of how the powers get stapled into you own spiritweb; you need a hole in your soul in order to shove another piece of someone else's soul in there.

3. It is Ruin's own investiture that causes the damage, and is a fundamental part of how that investiture works.

If the damage done to one's soul is caused by conflicting Identity, you could blank the Identity of the donor before their power was taken. Easier said than done, as the only practical method of doing this is with their consent, but if you could grant them four or more Hemalurgic spikes, then use emotional Allomancy to control them, you could then force them to blank their Identity so that you can spike them.

If the Hemalurgic weakness is caused by it needing to be a hole in your soul to grant access to the power, then you could follow similar steps as with the Identity theory, but then Allomantically burn the spike to grant you that power permanently without needing you pierce your soul with a foreign piece of spiritweb. This has some assumptions tied to it, as we don't know for certain that splicing your spiritweb with someone else's through this method will grant you their power.

If it really is Ruin's own investiture that is causing the problem...that's pretty difficult to deal with, seeing as how standard Hemalurgy is all tied to his investiture. However, you might be able to replicate a Hemalurgic charge with Selish Forgery, which would be powered by the Dor, not Ruin, so it might be a functional workaround. The amount of investiture within the art of Forgery isn't naturally big though, so you'd have to solve that problem, and you'd still have to deal with the location limitation. Not only that, but it might be the case that using Forgery to replicate a Hemalurgic charge would actually draw on Ruin's investiture (though it's pretty unlikely, who knows what could happen when dealing with magic system hacking like this?), which would make this method ineffective when dealing with this theory's workings.

Does anyone else have any theories on why Hemalurgy causes damage to your spiritweb, and how to fix it?

[Halyo_Alex]

As far as I know, Ruin "intentionally" built a flaw into his metallic art because HE wanted to be able to manipulate people who used it. So I believe it is somehow a fundamental part of "normal, functioning" Hemalurgy.

I think the method most likely to solve it is allomantically burning the spike, but that does probably involve at least SOME side effects.

[cometaryorbit]

I think it's the "stapling in a power requires making a hole in the soul" thing. I see it as analogous to Allomancy's Snapping and similar things in other cosmere systems- foreign power needs a way to get in- but more damaging since it's Ruin's system.

I don't think there is actual power from Ruin himself coming in - Hemalurgy is end-negative, the Investiture given to the spike recipient is the Investiture of the donor minus Hemalurgic decay. It's Ruin's magic system, but not really directly powered by him.

(Although there's Ruin in everything/everyone on Scadrial, so technically there would be some Ruin Investiture there... but Ruin's not serving as a power source the way Preservation is for Allomancy or the Dor is for magic systems on Sel.)

[+ShardlessVessel]

The way I understand it, when you spike someone, either spiking something out or spiking something in, the spike itself undergoes Realmic transition (which isn't a ridiculous notion - this is essentially how sand mastery works) and literally touches the spiritweb.

When you extract a trait from someone, the spike adheres to the spiritweb and rips a piece off of it. When you then insert the spike in someone else, it literally sticks to their spiritweb and creates a weak point.

To make the point again because I sound vague even to myself: the spike transitions into the Spiritual Realm, as if it travelled through a tiny perpendicularity, and literally pierces the soul. That's why there are holes.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, ShardlessVessel said:

The way I understand it, when you spike someone, either spiking something out or spiking something in, the spike itself undergoes Realmic transition (which isn't a ridiculous notion - this is essentially how sand mastery works) and literally touches the spiritweb.

When you extract a trait from someone, the spike adheres to the spiritweb and rips a piece off of it. When you then insert the spike in someone else, it literally sticks to their spiritweb and creates a weak point.

To make the point again because I sound vague even to myself: the spike transitions into the Spiritual Realm, as if it travelled through a tiny perpendicularity, and literally pierces the soul. That's why there are holes.

That would also help explain why being stabbed through the eyes and stuff doesn’t instantly kill an Inquisitor…

[Zoey]

8 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That would also help explain why being stabbed through the eyes and stuff doesn’t instantly kill an Inquisitor…

IIRC, it is explained it doesn't kill them because it has the organs move away from the spike. Shaping around it. 

[Halyo_Alex]

46 minutes ago, Zoey said:

IIRC, it is explained it doesn't kill them because it has the organs move away from the spike. Shaping around it. 

…Can it be both?

[Karger]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:16 AM, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think there is actual power from Ruin himself coming in - Hemalurgy is end-negative, the Investiture given to the spike recipient is the Investiture of the donor minus Hemalurgic decay. It's Ruin's magic system, but not really directly powered by him.

No power from Ruin does come in.  It is still end negative due to the inefficiency.  Ruin's power is just priming everything.

On 1/12/2022 at 8:44 PM, Trusk'our said:

Does anyone else have any theories on why Hemalurgy causes damage to your spiritweb, and how to fix it?

I understand hemalurgy to be similar in nature to organ transplants.  Assuming a willing donor then your biggest problem is how the recipient's body will react to the implant. Blanking identity will help to some degree as it should minimize your odds of having rejection and help the charge assimilate a bit better.  I would also recommend flaring aluminum as a step similar to antibiotics.  Ideally you would also want an artificial soul(similar to awakening maybe) but what you are really asking is how to get rid of the surgical scars and that is kind of tricky.  Even the best practitioners nowadays aren't perfect.  Fundamentally bodies break down and even replacing parts comes with risks and consequences.  Your adding on new parts so I'm not sure any way to do so perfectly even exists. 

[Halyo_Alex]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I understand hemalurgy to be similar in nature to organ transplants.  Assuming a willing donor then your biggest problem is how the recipient's body will react to the implant. Blanking identity will help to some degree as it should minimize your odds of having rejection and help the charge assimilate a bit better.  I would also recommend flaring aluminum as a step similar to antibiotics.  Ideally you would also want an artificial soul(similar to awakening maybe) but what you are really asking is how to get rid of the surgical scars and that is kind of tricky.  Even the best practitioners nowadays aren't perfect.  Fundamentally bodies break down and even replacing parts comes with risks and consequences.  Your adding on new parts so I'm not sure any way to do so perfectly even exists. 

What if you allomantically burn an Identity-blanked spike?

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

…Can it be both?

I think it is. Hemalurgy primarily changes the Spiritual aspect/spiritweb, the Physical changes as a result.

Often in odd ways- the iron spikes used to make koloss steal human physical strength; continuing growth, turning blue, and weird non-size-matching skin are not direct attributes transferred, but some kind of side effect of the spiritweb change.

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

No power from Ruin does come in.  It is still end negative due to the inefficiency.  Ruin's power is just priming everything.

I don't see what any external Investiture would be doing, though. Except maybe to allow the spike to interact with the spiritweb? But I don't think that kind of thing actually involves pulling investiture from the Spiritual/a Shard, any more than a Feruchemist needs to pull Investiture to start storing.

[+Bzhydack]

I think it is option 3, Ruin's own Investiture.

I Always see Hemalurgic spike as literal nail, made from Ruin's investiture, and part of soul is literaly nailed to other soul with this nail. So, like physical nail is causing hole in plank, beside being able to pin something to it, similarly hemalurgic spike will cause damage to the soul.

[Karger]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't see what any external Investiture would be doing, though. Except maybe to allow the spike to interact with the spiritweb? But I don't think that kind of thing actually involves pulling investiture from the Spiritual/a Shard, any more than a Feruchemist needs to pull Investiture to start storing.

You can go back and reread but I believe it is made quite clear.  Basically you need an initial energy input to make the entire thing work. 

7 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

What if you allomantically burn an Identity-blanked spike?

We don't know what happens.  IIRC Brandon RAFOed.

[cometaryorbit]

18 hours ago, Karger said:

Basically you need an initial energy input to make the entire thing work.

Where is that stated, though? I don't think that's universally true.

If Investiture is already present (end-neutral or end-negative systems), I don't think using or transferring it necessarily requires an input of more Investiture. It may require some kind of fuel (color in Awakening) but that's not really more Investiture - and Feruchemy doesn't use any fuel at all, you just store and then take back what you stored.

I think Hemalurgy is like that, you start with X Investiture, steal it, and give X-Y Investiture to the victim (because hemalurgic decay). There's no fuel and no external input.

Even in end-positive systems that need some kind of catalyst ("focus") to shape the effect of the Investiture, like metals in Allomancy or Aons in AonDor - well,, Aons aren't Investiture themselves, they're just symbols. (And I don't think people on Roshar use any catalyst to inhale Stormlight ...)

 

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Where is that stated, though? I don't think that's universally true.

Quote

Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation. The rational mind will see this. For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained. It is provided by an external source—Preservation's own body.

Hemalurgy is of Ruin. It destroys. By taking abilities from one person and giving them to another—in reduced amounts—power is actually lost. In line with Ruin's own appointed purpose—breaking down the universe into smaller and smaller pieces—Hemalurgy gives great gifts, but at a high cost.

IDK seems fairly clear to me that Ruin is involved but I have been wrong before.

[cometaryorbit]

Ruin is definitely involved. The magic system exists because he Invested Scadrial. But I don't think new Investiture is being input *from* Ruin.

Ruin's Investiture is present in everything Scadrian anyway... but I don't think any Investiture is *added* to the spike + victim/donor + recipient system in the process of Hemalurgy.

[+Bzhydack]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Hemalurgy is like that, you start with X Investiture, steal it, and give X-Y Investiture to the victim (because hemalurgic decay). There's no fuel and no external input.

Even in end-positive systems that need some kind of catalyst ("focus") to shape the effect of the Investiture, like metals in Allomancy or Aons in AonDor - well,, Aons aren't Investiture themselves, they're just symbols. (And I don't think people on Roshar use any catalyst to inhale Stormlight ...)

Focus of Investiture may not be directly Investiture, but servs as some sort of conduct for Investiture. Focus of magic pierces throu  Realms and conducts Investiture from Spiritual, or allows to use your own. This is why Aons or burned metals glow.

And people on Roshar use focus for their Magic. They use Spren.

And in Hemalurgy you still need to have some Innitial Power to rip part of Soul. You need Intent, so proper Intent directed Ruin's Investiture into Spike, just like Intent to burn metal directed Preservation's Investiture into it, or like Intent to store something in metal directed your own Investiture into it.