KaladinWorldsinger

Unanswered questions and Obscure details from RoW

46 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, Zoey said:

I mean, again

We know they are canonically the best order at Transportation. Willshapers can do it, but they are known to be less skilled with it than Elsecallers. 

Both of the Elsecaller Surges center around traveling to the Cognitive Realm. Makes sense that they spend a lot more time there, whereas the other two would have to split their time between Realms to train with both Surges properly, and ultimately with Elsecallers being around it's not as important for them to anyway, so they probably didn't train as much. Don't see why that requires them to be inherently better with one Surges, especially when again our Elsecaller almost never uses it and seems to be kinda bad at it, while our Willshaper uses it constantly. 

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm pretty sure Venli has used Transportation far more than Jasnah xD

When? I was really hoping to see her use it so we could finally put to rest whether or not transportation the surge provided instantaneous transfer between two locations in the physical realm, but I don’t recall seeing it. She used a whole lot of cohesion. Is that the surge you are referring to? Because if I missed it please tell me where so I can check it out! Lol

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7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

When? I was really hoping to see her use it so we could finally put to rest whether or not transportation the surge provided instantaneous transfer between two locations in the physical realm, but I don’t recall seeing it. She used a whole lot of cohesion. Is that the surge you are referring to? Because if I missed it please tell me where so I can check it out! Lol

She peeks between Realms using it a ton. If you have an eBook, you can do a search for "Shadesmar" and a decent number of the results will be her using it (though since part of the book is in Shadesmar, obviously not all the results, lol). Doesn't ever teleport from location to location, though.


Also, another point on this that I forgot:

1 hour ago, Zoey said:

We know they are canonically the best order at Transportation. Willshapers can do it, but they are known to be less skilled with it than Elsecallers. 

If Elsecallers are the best with Transportation and Lightweavers the best with Illumination, which order is best at Soulcasting? And if Lightweavers are best at Illumination and Edgedancers are best with Progression, which Surge are Truthwatchers best at? Every attempt I've seen to set "primary Surges" for the orders runs into an issue with missing one order/Surge or another, or ends up with counterintuitive results like Lightweavers being better at Soulcasting than Lightweaving (which is certainly not universally true).

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4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

If Elsecallers are the best with Transportation and Lightweavers the best with Illumination, which order is best at Soulcasting? And if Lightweavers are best at Illumination and Edgedancers are best with Progression,

I am afraid I have to point out that the Edgedancers are named for their use of Abrasion, not Progression. Also Lift became spontaneously awesome. Progression took time to learn.

You could make a case for the dampening voidfabrial affecting the secondary Surges less.

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

which Surge are Truthwatchers best at? Every attempt I've seen to set "primary Surges" for the orders runs into an issue with missing one order/Surge or another, or ends up with counterintuitive results like Lightweavers being better at Soulcasting than Lightweaving (which is certainly not universally true).

If you make the assumption that all Surges are equal.

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

She peeks between Realms using it a ton. If you have an eBook, you can do a search for "Shadesmar" and a decent number of the results will be her using it (though since part of the book is in Shadesmar, obviously not all the results, lol). Doesn't ever teleport from location to location, though.

Ah, then if it’s just for peeking into the cognitive, I disagree about her using it more than Jasnah. Now, building on that, personally although both transportation and transformation allow to peer into the cognitive, I term true use of the surge as in soul casting the object or transitioning between realms. 

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Also, another point on this that I forgot:

If Elsecallers are the best with Transportation and Lightweavers the best with Illumination, which order is best at Soulcasting? And if Lightweavers are best at Illumination and Edgedancers are best with Progression, which Surge are Truthwatchers best at? Every attempt I've seen to set "primary Surges" for the orders runs into an issue with missing one order/Surge or another, or ends up with counterintuitive results like Lightweavers being better at Soulcasting than Lightweaving (which is certainly not universally true).

So based on two WoB the trend is counter-clockwise though it is not ironclad for meta reasons. Basically Brandon was asked if each radiant starts with a specific surge. He said yes sorta. That he has done that because he wants to introduce the magic gradually. There ends up being exceptions for narrative purposes. So the break down is as below:

 

elsecaller transformation

lightweaver illumination

truthwatcher progression

edgedancer abrasion

dustbringer division

skybreaker gravitation

windrunner adhesion

bondsmith tension

Stoneward cohesion

Willshaper transportation

 

 

Overlord Jebus

So I've noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge?

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Overlord Jebus

Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person!

Brandon Sanderson

They do tend to-- Now, I'm gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons.

Overlord Jebus

How do you mean?

Brandon Sanderson

I designed that partially because I didn't want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It's not a hard fast rule, it's something that I've kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it's more of form following function than the other way around.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

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3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I have to point out that the Edgedancers are named for their use of Abrasion, not Progression

I'm using the example they did earlier in the thread. Though, if we take the primary Surge of Edgedancers to be Abrasion, then we end up with:

  • Bondsmiths: Tension
  • Windrunners: Adhesion
  • Skybreakers: Gravitation
  • Dustbringers: Division

Which doesn't make sense, considering how associated Bondsmiths are with Adhesion, and means that this idea

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You could make a case for the dampening voidfabrial affecting the secondary Surges less.

doesn't work, as Adhesion would be primary for Windrunners, not secondary.

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If you make the assumption that all Surges are equal.

Outside Adhesion being a weird one, we've seen no reason to think any Surges are inherently lesser or greater.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I term true use of the surge as in soul casting the object or transitioning between realms. 

I mean, in that case Jasnah took something like seven years to ever use Transportation a single time, which I'd disagree with. Wouldn't say it's any less a "true" use than a partial Lashing.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

He said yes sorta. That he has done that because he wants to introduce the magic gradually.

Yeah, I linked that WoB earlier in the thread. Mostly a meta thing, not a true rule. The argument I was responding to was someone saying that we "know" that that's not correct and several orders have mechanically-enforced "primary Surges", which I disagree with.

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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm using the example they did earlier in the thread. Though, if we take the primary Surge of Edgedancers to be Abrasion, then we end up with:

  • Bondsmiths: Tension
  • Windrunners: Adhesion
  • Skybreakers: Gravitation
  • Dustbringers: Division

Which doesn't make sense, considering how associated Bondsmiths are with Adhesion, and means that this idea

doesn't work, as Adhesion would be primary for Windrunners, not secondary.

Outside Adhesion being a weird one, we've seen no reason to think any Surges are inherently lesser or greater.

for myself at least it’s not lesser or greater. Its level of proficiency. We know lightweavers could get ranged soulcasting if they especially trained with it but elsecallers tend to be able to. Nale even made that clear to szeth, saying he had access to division but to hold off on training in that one. Meanwhile we see taravangians dustbringer using it casually.

Quote

I mean, in that case Jasnah took something like seven years to ever use Transportation a single time, which I'd disagree with. Wouldn't say it's any less a "true" use than a partial Lashing.

Which would still be one more use than Venli. If we term peering into the cognitive as counting for its use, then I guess my question would be how would we tell which jasnah used which time to peek into the cognitive. She has both after all and there is no discernible difference in peeking in using one over the other. So for all we know jasnah either only used transformation to peek, or only transportation, or switched between the two every single time for funsies.

edit: technically jasnah having two uses more than venli if we count each transition as one (1. entering the cognitive while on the ship 2. Exiting the cognitive and running into wit)

edit 2: also if we take Jasnah's deleted scene as canon, then she has been trying to convince Ivory to let her go. She needed him to be able to full transition. Up until that moment he has been refusing. So it wasn't that she couldn't, or lacked the ability to. He was preventing her because of concerns regarding spren (both his people, and the native fauna). Just like how Jasnah told Shallan not to practice with soulcasting because it is dangerous. Just like Dalinar not using his adhesion powers (regarding people) fully for a bit because again, as per the Stormfather, it is especially dangerous. Lift needed extra instruction with progression. Renarin had trouble with illumination (though we know other reasons for that). Kaladin needed to see Szeth use gravitation before he really began to employ it. 

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Lots of interesting questions... almost too many for one topic!  My thoughts:

On 1/7/2022 at 4:17 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

3) Taravangian's Bravery

4 times! 2 times italicized and at the end, the last 'bravery' is separated from all the other passions. Makes no sense to me, why is this important?

I agree that this felt external somehow.  I interpreted it as the influence of Cultivation on Taravangian... but Valor is also an interesting speculation.  I'm betting that Cultivation's "gifts" to Mr. T are going to turn out to be extremely important at some point.

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4) Taravangian never reveals how he knows szeth's dad died

I simply filed it under "stuff the Diagram knew"... they did have an extensive spy network covering much of Roshar.  But it's also possible Mr. T was paying special attention to Shinovar, and perhaps even had some direct contact.

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7) Close to what, Teft?? Did moash kill another amazing radiant swearing an ideal and getting redemption moment??

That's how I read it, yes.

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14) Axindweth knew jaxlim's mental illness. The only way that makes sense to me is through future sight and fortune. Anyone more well versed in mistborn tell me if feruchemists can have an idea of the future?

Not an expert, but with the proper metalminds, Fortune, Connection, and Identity can be stored, so many possibilities can be inferred.  Regarding Axindweth's Terris heritage, it seemed obvious to me.  Other Terris names we've seen:

Vwafendal

Asinthew

Idashwy

Handerwym

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15) Szeth gets shocked when he sees that ishar is a shin-like man. Dalinar doesnt think much about, bu we know that shin are the people who remember the history of the world better than everyone. I have a feeling that this revelation is ground breaking for szeth right now.

Not disagreeing with anyone else's observations, but to me this simply demonstrated that appearance (or "ethnicity" or whatever) is not as important as some in-world characters make it out to be, and that cultural norms have changed many times over the long years of Roshar.

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

for myself at least it’s not lesser or greater. Its level of proficiency.

I'm talking about the "If you make the assumption that all Surges are equal." bit.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Meanwhile we see taravangians dustbringer using it casually.

We don't know what Ideal she is.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

If we term peering into the cognitive as counting for its use, then I guess my question would be how would we tell which jasnah used which time to peek into the cognitive

Fair enough. I should instead phrase that "we have a lot more evidence of use", but that's not as certain as I had put it, that's a very good point.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Up until that moment he has been refusing. So it wasn't that she couldn't, or lacked the ability to. He was preventing her because of concerns regarding spren (both his people, and the native fauna).

Interesting, forgot about that. Wonder why he can deny that when we haven't really tended to see spren be able to consciously deny powers before (closest being when Syl's bond was breaking).

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We don't know what Ideal she is.

True, but she has a shardblade right? I know it was a bit iffy for a bit, but is it generally accepted you get your shardblade at roughly oath 3? I can't remember how the consensus ultimately resolved, but if so, then we can assume she is at least of the third oath. 

Quote

Interesting, forgot about that. Wonder why he can deny that when we haven't really tended to see spren be able to consciously deny powers before (closest being when Syl's bond was breaking).

So purely spitballing on my part, but when we see Jasnah return to the physical realm and run into Wit, it is described as:

"A streak of light spun about the ring, forming a wall five or six feet high. It faded immediately - really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly"

I got the sense that this was Ivory spinning around Jasnah to form the "portal" for her to transfer. So if Ivory refused to "spin", then Jasnah couldn't accomplish fully utilizing the surge. Though to my knowledge off the top of my head, I don't believe we have ever seen a surge require the actual direct participation of the spren in order to utilize it. I recall Shallan attaching an illusion to Pattern, but not that Pattern was needed to create an illusion. Wait! I just had a thought as I wrote this! When Renarin sees the future, Glys transforms into the panes of glass doesn't he? I am going to check and update my post momentarily. 

edit: Nevermind, remembered incorrectly. The panes of glass just appeared. It didn't sprout from Glys.

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

True, but she has a shardblade right? I know it was a bit iffy for a bit, but is it generally accepted you get your shardblade at roughly oath 3? I can't remember how the consensus ultimately resolved, but if so, then we can assume she is at least of the third oath. 

I don't remember if she does, maybe? But if so, that means we can't actually say whether Dustbringers get Division earlier or not, because Third is when Skybreakers unlock it as well.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I got the sense that this was Ivory spinning around Jasnah to form the "portal" for her to transfer

Hmm, interesting idea. But don't Oathgates have a similar effect? Could just be Light.

I wonder if the reason is because she needs an anchor of sorts in the Cognitive to pull on, and he can refuse to do that? Might also explain why it's harder to get back out, because now you and your spren are both fully in the Cognitive and you've got nothing to latch onto in the Physical.

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11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't remember if she does, maybe? But if so, that means we can't actually say whether Dustbringers get Division earlier or not, because Third is when Skybreakers unlock it as well.

She used the oathgate with her shardblade on multiple occasions, so she definitely has one. True regarding Skybreakers but as i said, that was when nale said to hold off because he would prefer to train szeth in it before its use. Now it could be said for all we know malata got training from someone off screen before we met her, but personally i dont think thats the case. 

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Hmm, interesting idea. But don't Oathgates have a similar effect? Could just be Light.

Could be. Though we know oathgates work with spren so could be they also fly around to accomplish the same thing. Nothing certain yet.

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I wonder if the reason is because she needs an anchor of sorts in the Cognitive to pull on, and he can refuse to do that? Might also explain why it's harder to get back out, because now you and your spren are both fully in the Cognitive and you've got nothing to latch onto in the Physical.

Could be. That is how she described the pull. Though the difficulty could also be stormlight accessibility. It is commented on a bunch of times how precious of a resource it is in the cognitive realm. She does ask ivory if the storm light she had left was enough to go back and he said no. So it could be stormlight heavy

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

She used the oathgate with her shardblade on multiple occasions, so she definitely has one.

Ah nice, I couldn't remember if she used her Blade or if it was only after the Windrunner Honorblade was stolen.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

True regarding Skybreakers but as i said, that was when nale said to hold off because he would prefer to train szeth in it before its use. Now it could be said for all we know malata got training from someone off screen before we met her, but personally i dont think thats the case. 

To be fair, all she did was burn a table. I assume that Nale's training would probably be about bigger, and more dangerous, uses.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Could be. Though we know oathgates work with spren so could be they also fly around to accomplish the same thing. Nothing certain yet.

Yeah, could definitely be. I don't remember if we see the spren when it's in use by someone or not, I'll have to keep an eye out.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Though the difficulty could also be stormlight accessibility. It is commented on a bunch of times how precious of a resource it is in the cognitive realm. She does ask ivory if the storm light she had left was enough to go back and he said no. So it could be stormlight heavy

Definitely would also make sense. Could be both, too, lol.

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18 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

almost too many for one topic!  My thoughts:

I was actually afraid of that, lol.

18 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Other Terris names we've seen:

Vwafendal

Asinthew

Idashwy

Handerwym

So basically it's law to have a w in the name.

 

18 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Not disagreeing with anyone else's observations, but to me this simply demonstrated that appearance (or "ethnicity" or whatever) is not as important as some in-world characters make it out to be, and that cultural norms have changed many times over the long years of Roshar.

For any other rosharan character vi would have agreed, but szeth is a shin man, they are the few people who seem to remember the true history

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2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

So basically it's law to have a w in the name.

Well, obviously not a LAW (Sazed and Alendi as counterexamples); just that "three weird syllables" is a very common pattern.  As soon as I saw the name "Axindweth" I thought "must be Terris".

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For any other rosharan character i would have agreed, but szeth is a shin man, they are the few people who seem to remember the true history

Could be.  I wouldn't overhype the ancient wisdom of the Shin, though - I won't be surprised if they are just as ignorant and self-deluded as anyone else on Roshar.  My guess will be that while yes, the Shin remember some specific pieces of history that have been forgotten in the East, there will also be an awful lot they DON'T know... and they will have misinterpreted or misconstrued some of what they do know.

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5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah nice, I couldn't remember if she used her Blade or if it was only after the Windrunner Honorblade was stolen.

No problemo

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

To be fair, all she did was burn a table. I assume that Nale's training would probably be about bigger, and more dangerous, uses.

Taravangian does comment to himself that she willed the flames out while she did it, but she could have sustained them if she wanted to. Now it could be he knew that because of research, rather than ability on her part, but I take that scene to mean she has greater proficiency with it than is immediately seen. But I totally acknowledge it is up in the air

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, could definitely be. I don't remember if we see the spren when it's in use by someone or not, I'll have to keep an eye out.

I will too. To the best of my recollection, we only see the spren after Kaladin and co first transfer to the cognitive by accident, and then when they refuse to let them transfer over in Thaylenah. Dalinar opening the perp is what got them across, not the oathgate, so I don't think we have seen it on screen.  

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Definitely would also make sense. Could be both, too, lol.

Very true. Which is all the more reason why I was hoping to see Venli use it! (or at least to the full extent I mean) But it was not to be lol.

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Well, obviously not a LAW (Sazed and Alendi as counterexamples); just that "three weird syllables" is a very common pattern.  As soon as I saw the name "Axindweth" I thought "must be Terris".

So I hope you don't take this as nitpicking or correcting you. Just meant as informational purposes. Alendi wasn't terris. That was why Rashek was so angry at him. That he was being told and expected to be ok with the hero of ages in the terris prophesies not even being a member of the terris himself. But having said that, Rashek does totally count as a counterexample. 

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4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I hope you don't take this as nitpicking or correcting you. Just meant as informational purposes. Alendi wasn't terris. That was why Rashek was so angry at him. That he was being told and expected to be ok with the hero of ages in the terris prophesies not even being a member of the terris himself. But having said that, Rashek does totally count as a counterexample. 

Totally fair - nitpicking is what we DO!  When I make a mistake (and boy, do I make mistakes) I EXPECT to be corrected.  You are of course correct, I said "Alendi" when I meant "Rashek".  Thanks!

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13 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

So basically it's law to have a w in the name.

The orthography of Terris looks like being based on Welsh to me. In that case the 'w' is basically /u/ like in "bush".

9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Very true. Which is all the more reason why I was hoping to see Venli use it! (or at least to the full extent I mean) But it was not to be lol.

Training with Transportation is truly dangerous. If you train and fail with Adhesion, well, you may drop a chair or a pebble. Gravitation, unless you do something stupid, you fall down, whereever down may be, which won't harm somebody holding Stormlight. Even with Division, if you burn off your hand, it will hurt, but you are a Knight Radiant, enough Stormlight right away will fix it.

Transportation, though, if you do it wrong, you get stuck in Shadesmar and drown in beads.

9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I hope you don't take this as nitpicking or correcting you. Just meant as informational purposes. Alendi wasn't terris. That was why Rashek was so angry at him. That he was being told and expected to be ok with the hero of ages in the terris prophesies not even being a member of the terris himself. But having said that, Rashek does totally count as a counterexample. 

Forch, Telsin, Razal, ...

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4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Training with Transportation is truly dangerous. If you train and fail with Adhesion, well, you may drop a chair or a pebble. Gravitation, unless you do something stupid, you fall down, whereever down may be, which won't harm somebody holding Stormlight. Even with Division, if you burn off your hand, it will hurt, but you are a Knight Radiant, enough Stormlight right away will fix it.

Transportation, though, if you do it wrong, you get stuck in Shadesmar and drown in beads.

True dalinar did stick a chair to a wall, but adhesion with Dalinar certainly works differently than Kaladins when using it on people and can be argued to have a much worse effect if done incorrectly. If kaladin in his early oaths when he couldn’t hold a lot of storm light soared into the air not realizing how much each lashing takes, and then ran out….. Taravangian said that Malata could make the flames persist. Could burn everyone around you, or do a giant explosion with flames out of control. For all we know the flames could act like when in the cognitive realm soulcasting. As in, continually growing and draining storm light unless it is controlled. Transformation has the same problems as transportation and jasnah still learned it first while shallan was warned and told to stick to illusions. So Venli should have learned transportation by timbre bringing her into the cognitive. It didn’t because for narrative reasons it would either reveal her or was too much of a get out of jail free card. So many issues she ran into would have been easily solved. So Brandon used the pursuer to show it. Just the problem is using the fused to demonstrate it is still different than the way a radiant would do it. Still leaving many questions for me.

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15 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Taravangian does comment to himself that she willed the flames out while she did it, but she could have sustained them if she wanted to. Now it could be he knew that because of research, rather than ability on her part, but I take that scene to mean she has greater proficiency with it than is immediately seen. But I totally acknowledge it is up in the air

I mean yeah, she can probably sustain it. I assume Szeth could keep something going for a bit if he freaking tried why do none of the Skybreakers ever touch it but using it responsibly and most effectively is probably a lot more difficult. After all, it's a pretty dangerous power, you don't want to burn everyone around you.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I will too. To the best of my recollection, we only see the spren after Kaladin and co first transfer to the cognitive by accident, and then when they refuse to let them transfer over in Thaylenah. Dalinar opening the perp is what got them across, not the oathgate, so I don't think we have seen it on screen.  

Yeah that sounds about right. Shame.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Which is all the more reason why I was hoping to see Venli use it! (or at least to the full extent I mean) But it was not to be lol.

I bet Jasnah would be extremely annoyed if Ivory didn't let her use it for several Ideals and seven years, and Venli got it in like one xD

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5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean yeah, she can probably sustain it. I assume Szeth could keep something going for a bit if he freaking tried why do none of the Skybreakers ever touch it but using it responsibly and most effectively is probably a lot more difficult. After all, it's a pretty dangerous power, you don't want to burn everyone around you.

Yep. Which is why although I understand why Brandon wants to slowly introduce us to the magics, I still get frustrated and want to see them already! lol. I have too many questions.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I bet Jasnah would be extremely annoyed if Ivory didn't let her use it for several Ideals and seven years, and Venli got it in like one xD

Weeeelllllll just to be a little contrary, Jasnah did respect Ivory's wishes to keep the problem with radiancy a secret even though she disagreed. She also felt bad for limiting Shallan's practice with soulcasting, and apologized. So I could see her understanding that that was just the way it had to go. But I agree it would be funny. 

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