Stabalizing your Spiritweb to Protect it from Hemalurgic Control?

[Trusk'our]

Is there a way to stabilize your spiritweb to make it less damaged by Hemalurgic use?

The kandra blessings of Presence and Stability both make the kandra less susceptible to being controlled, but since they are imparted via Hemalurgy itself, it also causes more holes to be made in their spiritweb than before.

Could there be some way to stabilize, heal, or somehow reinforce your spiritweb to make it less susceptible to being controlled via the holes left by the use of Hemalurgy, that doesn't involve using more Hemalurgic spikes?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I would question if A aluminum could help with savantism levels of burning.  Then again if you were to clean your spiritweb would it allow you to keep any benefits given to you via the hemalurgy itself?   Seems risky for a kandra to try and repair those holes since they only have sentience because of those spikes.   

Maybe it could come in the form of a boon from old magic?   Freedom of sorts.  Though the curse likely would not make it worth it.  

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would question if A aluminum could help with savantism levels of burning.  Then again if you were to clean your spiritweb would it allow you to keep any benefits given to you via the hemalurgy itself?   Seems risky for a kandra to try and repair those holes since they only have sentience because of those spikes.   

Maybe it could come in the form of a boon from old magic?   Freedom of sorts.  Though the curse likely would not make it worth it.  

I suspect that you couldn't completely close the holes themselves, as I'm fairly certain that those are necessary on a fundamental level to imparting the powers from the spikes to the recipient; no other magic we've seen allows you to make use of an invested item that holds another person's Identity.

The Old Magic likely could work because it's basically meant for plot progression and therefore can do anything that the story needs, but yeah, even if you did get it the curse would probably suck so much that it wouldn't be worth getting.

[Pathfinder]

I think the main issue is the identity of the spiritweb being stapled. Its like having a hunk of green play doh. You then take a small chunk of orange play doh, and push it into the green. You still see the chunk of orange in the large hunk of green. Kneading the play doh is basically what the spirit web is trying to do. Make it all one color. But it takes a lot to mix the orange chunk into the green hunk, and the color you get afterwards is still different than what it started as. So I guess you would need to find a way to change the orange chunk to green?

[Trusk'our]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the main issue is the identity of the spiritweb being stapled. Its like having a hunk of green play doh. You then take a small chunk of orange play doh, and push it into the green. You still see the chunk of orange in the large hunk of green. Kneading the play doh is basically what the spirit web is trying to do. Make it all one color. But it takes a lot to mix the orange chunk into the green hunk, and the color you get afterwards is still different than what it started as. So I guess you would need to find a way to change the orange chunk to green?

You mean convert the Identity of the donor's spike to the Identity of the recipient? Perhaps, in an ideal setting where you had a willing donor and access to the resources needed to create Unsealed Metalminds, you could have the donor blank their Identity while simultaneously tapping the Identity of the recipient via Unsealed Metalminds. Perhaps then the spike made from the donor would have enough of the Identity of the recipient to make it more stable?

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

You mean convert the Identity of the donor's spike to the Identity of the recipient? Perhaps, in an ideal setting where you had a willing donor and access to the resources needed to create Unsealed Metalminds, you could have the donor blank their Identity while simultaneously tapping the Identity of the recipient via Unsealed Metalminds. Perhaps then the spike made from the donor would have enough of the Identity of the recipient to make it more stable?

Was thinking about that, but if you have the ability to wipe the identity, then might as well just make a unsealed metal mind. More efficient, less damaging, and you can make multiples. 

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Was thinking about that, but if you have the ability to wipe the identity, then might as well just make a unsealed metal mind. More efficient, less damaging, and you can make multiples. 

True, but Hemalurgy is more long term, as you don't need to worry about running out of fuel for your powers; you just pop some more metals in your mouth or fill a metalmind, while Unsealed Metalminds (with the exception of ones that allow for nicrosil compounding) are more temporary enhancements that will cease to be useful once you've drained them.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

True, but Hemalurgy is more long term, as you don't need to worry about running out of fuel for your powers; you just pop some more metals in your mouth or fill a metalmind, while Unsealed Metalminds (with the exception of ones that allow for nicrosil compounding) are more temporary enhancements that will cease to be useful once you've drained them.

That said, I think unsealed metalminds will become the military tech of the future.  Not only do you eliminate the risk of handing over an army of hemalurgically spiked minions to a shard or extrapowerful soother/rioter, but you also put a limit on the amount of power that a single soldier (or citizen if allowed) has access to.  From a government or big cooperate viewpoint anything that just gives a person unlimited access to power is spooky.  Gun control doesn't have to be as big of a topic if you have a pandemic to limit ammo production though.  Medallion tech is also going to be a lot less frowned upon from a moral standpoint than hemalurgy.  

Back to the topic it would be awesome to have a way to stabilize your spiritweb with spikes but that almost defeats the purpose of them.   Oldmagic as a plot driving option (and curses never seem to really deter a character who needs help with their plot line) does seem the only truly viable option but that also requires some world hopping and hoping your curse doesn't totally wreck you.  

I would hate to see medallion tech completely erase hemalurgy and frankly when evil people have a chance to get even a slight edge over the rest of the population they will still take it.  

[Trusk'our]

 

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That said, I think unsealed metalminds will become the military tech of the future.  Not only do you eliminate the risk of handing over an army of hemalurgically spiked minions to a shard or extrapowerful soother/rioter, but you also put a limit on the amount of power that a single soldier (or citizen if allowed) has access to.  From a government or big cooperate viewpoint anything that just gives a person unlimited access to power is spooky.  Gun control doesn't have to be as big of a topic if you have a pandemic to limit ammo production though.  Medallion tech is also going to be a lot less frowned upon from a moral standpoint than hemalurgy.  

Back to the topic it would be awesome to have a way to stabilize your spiritweb with spikes but that almost defeats the purpose of them.   Oldmagic as a plot driving option (and curses never seem to really deter a character who needs help with their plot line) does seem the only truly viable option but that also requires some world hopping and hoping your curse doesn't totally wreck you.  

I would hate to see medallion tech completely erase hemalurgy and frankly when evil people have a chance to get even a slight edge over the rest of the population they will still take it.  

Actually, if got a Boon/Curse from the Old magic you could Hemalurgicly remove both, then split the two and despose of the Curse while keeping the Boon. Maybe you could even Allomanticly burn the Boon spike instead of piercing yourself with it so as to not have an additional spike in your system. 

I'm on my mobile right now, so I'll have to find the quote later. Sorry about that. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

49 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

 

Actually, if got a Boon/Curse from the Old magic you could Hemalurgicly remove both, then split the two and despose of the Curse while keeping the Boon. Maybe you could even Allomanticly burn the Boon spike instead of piercing yourself with it so as to not have an additional spike in your system. 

I'm on my mobile right now, so I'll have to find the quote later. Sorry about that. 

I am definately interested in more info on how this would work when you are able.  Is it just spiking yourself to remove that specific portion of the soul that has the boon attached or curse attached?   Would that be a nicrosil spike or what?   

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

True, but Hemalurgy is more long term, as you don't need to worry about running out of fuel for your powers; you just pop some more metals in your mouth or fill a metalmind, while Unsealed Metalminds (with the exception of ones that allow for nicrosil compounding) are more temporary enhancements that will cease to be useful once you've drained them.

Wasn't there a way to refill the metalmind with the ability through compounding? Wax said he nearly emptied the bands of mourning, but knew he could refill it and the abilities, just by burning some metals. Also keep in mind, the person you got the blanked identity ability from is dead, and the power you get is weaker. Meanwhile there does not seem to be a depreciation in strength regarding the metal minds. (Yes i know about the law of diminishing returns when you tap more and more, I mean the power itself is weaker with hemalurgy)

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would hate to see medallion tech completely erase hemalurgy and frankly when evil people have a chance to get even a slight edge over the rest of the population they will still take it.  

I agree, I don't see hemalurgy ever going away, but if the goal was to try and minimize the negative effects, I figure unsealed metalminds are just the better option in the end. 

[Trusk'our]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am definately interested in more info on how this would work when you are able.  Is it just spiking yourself to remove that specific portion of the soul that has the boon attached or curse attached?   Would that be a nicrosil spike or what?   

I'm now off of work, and was able to find the quote on my laptop. Here you go!

Quote

Questioner

Using Hemalurgy, could you steal the boon from the Old Magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, from the Nightwatcher? This is theoretically possible.

Questioner

Would that take the [curse] with it as well?

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitantly* Yes. Though it's also theoretically possible to split them apart, that would be a lot harder. Getting the boon, if you knew what you were doing, would not be that difficult.

Now, what Cultivation would do to you when she found out that had happened is another thing entirely. Because those are willful grants of Investiture.

Questioner

Similar to Endowment's with the Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, things like that. When you get a Shard involved and the Shard has..  power to... Same thing like...it's on a much grander scale what's happening with the spren bond, right?

Questioner

When Hemalurgy does spread, most Shards will not be happy about this, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is correct.

 

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Wasn't there a way to refill the metalmind with the ability through compounding? Wax said he nearly emptied the bands of mourning, but knew he could refill it and the abilities, just by burning some metals. Also keep in mind, the person you got the blanked identity ability from is dead, and the power you get is weaker.

Yes, it was mentioned by Wax in The Bands of Mourning that if he compounded he could recharge the Bands, so I it is certainly possible to refill an Unsealed Metalmind if you have access to nicrosil compounding to fuel it.

Technically, if you're careful you don't have to kill the donor of the spike, and they can even regain their natural power if they have a sufficient amount of healing investiture, such as with Feruchemical gold. But there is likely going to be some more or less permanent spiritual scarring that will happen, though we're not entirely sure what it will do, or how serious of a problem it would be.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Trusk'our

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Technically, if you're careful you don't have to kill the donor of the spike, and they can even regain their natural power if they have a sufficient amount of healing investiture, such as with Feruchemical gold. But there is likely going to be some more or less permanent spiritual scarring that will happen, though we're not entirely sure what it will do, or how serious of a problem it would be.

So here is the thing. The purpose of this thread is to find a way to circumvent one of the main issues with hemalurgy right? Messing up your spirit web, and leaving it open for influence. I theorize that has to do with the identity issue. So then we discussed ways of handling the identity issue, but the way that it could be handled, is pretty much the way it is handled with metalminds, which lack all the other issues hemalurgy have. When developing things, there inevitably reaches a point where trying to fix issues with a thing becomes more costly than the value of the task the thing accomplishes and thereby it is just better to try a different way entirely. Which is my point, sorta. Basically, the task that hemalurgy helps you accomplish is taking a quick and dirty short cut to power with minimal set up. Grab a person, stabbity them, stabbity yourself, you have yourself a power. Once you have to go through alllll the trouble of setting up a person with a whole bunch of powers just to shore up one negative aspect, hemalurgy loses its worth. So I believe what should be sought to make the identity issue no longer an issue, is an alloy or bind point where a power can be stolen without the accompanying identity. I do not know if such exist, but if it did, then I think hemalurgy would still be cost effective and still accomplish your goal of eliminating a negative aspect of it. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm now off of work, and was able to find the quote on my laptop. Here you go!

 

Yes, it was mentioned by Wax in The Bands of Mourning that if he compounded he could recharge the Bands, so I it is certainly possible to refill an Unsealed Metalmind if you have access to nicrosil compounding to fuel it.

Technically, if you're careful you don't have to kill the donor of the spike, and they can even regain their natural power if they have a sufficient amount of healing investiture, such as with Feruchemical gold. But there is likely going to be some more or less permanent spiritual scarring that will happen, though we're not entirely sure what it will do, or how serious of a problem it would be.

Yeah I remember seeing something about how Miles could have become a gold compounding spikes factory.  What a waste.  Not that anyone on Scadrial should be excited about having a ton of Miles running around.   I believe it was in part his inability to die that eventually pushed him over the edge.  

As for the bands... this is why I believe F-nicrosil to be the single greatest power on all of scadrial.   With medallion tech and hemalurgy having the base ability to simply store investiture would allow you, with just an A-nicrosil medallion or spike, would allow you go around collecting a single medallion or faint spike at a time and eventually be able to infinitely compound out bands.  

We know burning metals doesn't happen at once but theoretically you could pair duralumin to burn down the bands of mourning and store up 10 other sets of bands all while tapping a bit of gold or burning some aluminum afterwords to heal the damage that burning that much metal has to be doing to your spiritweb.  

To return to the point of this thread as well, you could get access to F nicrosil through any other means than hemalurgy and then once you have collected enough other powers whether through spikes or through medallion tech start yourself a compounded set of powers that you take from spikes then remove the spikes and continue to simply compound out your own set of bands.  

Edited January 11, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Trusk'our]

 

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So here is the thing. The purpose of this thread is to find a way to circumvent one of the main issues with hemalurgy right? Messing up your spirit web, and leaving it open for influence. I theorize that has to do with the identity issue. So then we discussed ways of handling the identity issue, but the way that it could be handled, is pretty much the way it is handled with metalminds, which lack all the other issues hemalurgy have. When developing things, there inevitably reaches a point where trying to fix issues with a thing becomes more costly than the value of the task the thing accomplishes and thereby it is just better to try a different way entirely. Which is my point, sorta. Basically, the task that hemalurgy helps you accomplish is taking a quick and dirty short cut to power with minimal set up. Grab a person, stabbity them, stabbity yourself, you have yourself a power. Once you have to go through alllll the trouble of setting up a person with a whole bunch of powers just to shore up one negative aspect, hemalurgy loses its worth. So I believe what should be sought to make the identity issue no longer an issue, is an alloy or bind point where a power can be stolen without the accompanying identity. I do not know if such exist, but if it did, then I think hemalurgy would still be cost effective and still accomplish your goal of eliminating a negative aspect of it. 

 

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah I remember seeing something about how Miles could have become a gold compounding spikes factory.  What a waste.  Not that anyone on Scadrial should be excited about having a ton of Miles running around.   I believe it was in part his inability to die that eventually pushed him over the edge.  

As for the bands... this is why I believe F-nicrosil to be the single greatest power on all of scadrial.   With medallion tech and hemalurgy having the base ability to simply store investiture would allow you, with just an A-nicrosil medallion or spike, would allow you go around collecting a single medallion or faint spike at a time and eventually be able to infinitely compound out bands.  

We know burning metals doesn't happen at once but theoretically you could pair duralumin to burn down the bands of mourning and store up 10 other sets of bands all while tapping a bit of gold or burning some aluminum afterwords to heal the damage that burning that much metal has to be doing to your spiritweb.  

To return to the point of this thread as well, you could get access to F nicrosil through any other means than hemalurgy and then once you have collected enough other powers whether through spikes or through medallion tech start yourself a compounded set of powers that you take from spikes then remove the spikes and continue to simply compound out your own set of bands.  

You guys are right that medallion tech is going to become better than Hemalurgy in the long run, I suppose. 

I merely enjoy thinking about realistic  ways to improve a magic system's use in Sanderson's books, and figure out ways to use it creatively. I'm not trying to say that Hemalurgy is superior to Unsealed Metalminds in all aspects,  I'm just trying to come up with new ways to use Hemalurgy more effectively. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

 

 

You guys are right that medallion tech is going to become better than Hemalurgy in the long run, I suppose. 

I merely enjoy thinking about realistic  ways to improve a magic system's use in Sanderson's books, and figure out ways to use it creatively. I'm not trying to say that Hemalurgy is superior to Unsealed Metalminds in all aspects,  I'm just trying to come up with new ways to use Hemalurgy more effectively. 

I was concerned my post would come off that way. I was not intending to stifle your creativity or say you shouldn't consider these things. I was referring to the direction. I tried breaking it down like this:

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

1. Quick and "easy" way to get a power. Find a person with the power you want. Stab them. Stab yourself. Get the power. Don't need the individual's permission, and can grab anyone with the ability you want.

2. Combine various unrelated powers in numerous ways without (mostly) any limitation

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. spirit web gets messed up

3. shards and certain powers can control you

4. power stolen is weaker than original

Unsealed Metal Minds

Pros

1. Metal mind "factory". Can replicate over and over and over

2. Power at same strength, or can be compounded to be stronger

3. Can combine various powers

Cons

1. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process. Individual has to voluntarily choose to make more. 

 

So in this process we are trying to eliminate the con that the "spirit web gets messed up". We theorized that it has to do with the identity of the power taken. You suggested getting a person who can store their identity to do like they do theoretically with metal minds. The reason why I said you might as well just make a unsealed metal mind then, because you eliminate the Pro of hemalurgy by trying to eliminate a con. This would be the new spread on hemalurgy

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

 

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. shards and certain powers can control you

3. power stolen is weaker than original

4. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process.

 

You now need someone that can store identity AND has the ability you want. The person then has to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. You now have to find ANOTHER individual with the ability to store identity AND has the next ability you want. You then have to get that person to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. Rinse and repeat for every single ability. Or as you said, they have to also have the ability for gold, to survive the experience. But if that is required, then you might as well need a person with ALL the abilities, so you can repeatedly stab out all of the abilities while they are storing their identity and healing so they don't die and you can do it again. So the one Con for unsealed metalminds, is now a Con for hemalurgy, negating the one major Pro. 

That is why I suggested looking in a different direction. Don't look for a specific individual, look for a spike or bind point that will solve the issue. Thereby hemalurgy's main pro remains viable. I came up with an example in my head last night that I am going to share. I don't think it is necessary at this point, but I am rather proud of it, and wanted to relate it anyway.

Let us say for instance you don't like having to get up to flip the light switch to turn on all your lights. So you get this wireless remote that you can put anywhere or keep on you, that enables you to push a button and all the lights go on. So you won't have to get up. Problem is, the wireless remote has to always be on to accomplish this, so it drains the battery and dies quickly and from very little use. To solve this issue, you plug the wireless remote into the wall so it is always charging, and thereby won't die. Thing is, the wall socket is by the light switch. So you solved the battery drain, but now you have to get up to turn on the light switch. The very thing you got the wireless remote to prevent. So I would suggest looking into ways to include a longer lasting battery, or reduce the power drain on the remote. That way the charge will last longer, and you can still turn on the lights from the comfort of where ever you want. So I am not saying get rid of the remote. Just direct the means of fixing the problem in a different direction that still utilizes the remote's benefits.

 

edit: Looking at the hemalurgic table, duralumin spike steals identity. Maybe find a way to stab away the identity, and see if stabbing the ability you want shortly after hopefully in time so as the person has not died, but after the identity was removed?

Edited January 11, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I was concerned my post would come off that way. I was not intending to stifle your creativity or say you shouldn't consider these things. I was referring to the direction. I tried breaking it down like this:

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

1. Quick and "easy" way to get a power. Find a person with the power you want. Stab them. Stab yourself. Get the power. Don't need the individual's permission, and can grab anyone with the ability you want.

2. Combine various unrelated powers in numerous ways without (mostly) any limitation

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. spirit web gets messed up

3. shards and certain powers can control you

4. power stolen is weaker than original

Unsealed Metal Minds

Pros

1. Metal mind "factory". Can replicate over and over and over

2. Power at same strength, or can be compounded to be stronger

3. Can combine various powers

Cons

1. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process. Individual has to voluntarily choose to make more. 

 

So in this process we are trying to eliminate the con that the "spirit web gets messed up". We theorized that it has to do with the identity of the power taken. You suggested getting a person who can store their identity to do like they do theoretically with metal minds. The reason why I said you might as well just make a unsealed metal mind then, because you eliminate the Pro of hemalurgy by trying to eliminate a con. This would be the new spread on hemalurgy

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

 

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. shards and certain powers can control you

3. power stolen is weaker than original

4. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process.

 

You now need someone that can store identity AND has the ability you want. The person then has to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. You now have to find ANOTHER individual with the ability to store identity AND has the next ability you want. You then have to get that person to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. Rinse and repeat for every single ability. Or as you said, they have to also have the ability for gold, to survive the experience. But if that is required, then you might as well need a person with ALL the abilities, so you can repeatedly stab out all of the abilities while they are storing their identity and healing so they don't die and you can do it again. So the one Con for unsealed metalminds, is now a Con for hemalurgy, negating the one major Pro. 

That is why I suggested looking in a different direction. Don't look for a specific individual, look for a spike or bind point that will solve the issue. Thereby hemalurgy's main pro remains viable. I came up with an example in my head last night that I am going to share. I don't think it is necessary at this point, but I am rather proud of it, and wanted to relate it anyway.

Let us say for instance you don't like having to get up to flip the light switch to turn on all your lights. So you get this wireless remote that you can put anywhere or keep on you, that enables you to push a button and all the lights go on. So you won't have to get up. Problem is, the wireless remote has to always be on to accomplish this, so it drains the battery and dies quickly and from very little use. To solve this issue, you plug the wireless remote into the wall so it is always charging, and thereby won't die. Thing is, the wall socket is by the light switch. So you solved the battery drain, but now you have to get up to turn on the light switch. The very thing you got the wireless remote to prevent. So I would suggest looking into ways to include a longer lasting battery, or reduce the power drain on the remote. That way the charge will last longer, and you can still turn on the lights from the comfort of where ever you want. So I am not saying get rid of the remote. Just direct the means of fixing the problem in a different direction that still utilizes the remote's benefits.

 

edit: Looking at the hemalurgic table, duralumin spike steals identity. Maybe find a way to stab away the identity, and see if stabbing the ability you want shortly after hopefully in time so as the person has not died, but after the identity was removed?

Gotta agree that I don't mean to derail and divert from the question.  It is one that I have thought about a ton.   Kandra are my favorite monster in any universe and I so badly want them to be liberated.  (Which is ironic because I am the brotherhood of steel through and through in fallout).

I think the edited idea could really work well especially if it were combined with other powers to make a factory of spikes.  

Imagine a world where you have someone with access to gold compounding who can then fill a medallion and grant that massive chunk of healing to an individual.  Offer substantial enough payment and they may even allow you to spike them with duralumin and then repeatedly with other spikes as they continue healing.  I am sure it would jack up a persons spirit web but what is the limit to hemalurgic mind control?  Add in an extraordinarily powerful rioter or soother (perhaps they themselves have respiked their own abilities to themselves)?  Would they be able to then take control of another spike factory and force them to continue to tap that gold until said medallion ran out?   

I am sure I confuse terms in all of that but hemalurgy combined with gold compounding and medallion tech could do some serious damage. 

Does gold healing only heal portions of the spiritweb that don't currently have a spike in them?   Would you have to respike with duralumin every time you try to heal the person?   

Could a powerful enough duralumin compounder use their stored connection to convince a person to willingly tap a medallion to heal themselves enough to get a few spikes if it could?  

Not that any of this would ever liberate Kandra.  I wanted to think that a blessing of stability combined with an ability to be a coppercloud might protect them from ruins influence but with Harmony at the reigns I don't there is anything in Scadrials power that could negate it hence I jump back to old magic via the nightwatcher.  

[Trusk'our]

23 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I was concerned my post would come off that way. I was not intending to stifle your creativity or say you shouldn't consider these things. I was referring to the direction. I tried breaking it down like this:

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

1. Quick and "easy" way to get a power. Find a person with the power you want. Stab them. Stab yourself. Get the power. Don't need the individual's permission, and can grab anyone with the ability you want.

2. Combine various unrelated powers in numerous ways without (mostly) any limitation

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. spirit web gets messed up

3. shards and certain powers can control you

4. power stolen is weaker than original

Unsealed Metal Minds

Pros

1. Metal mind "factory". Can replicate over and over and over

2. Power at same strength, or can be compounded to be stronger

3. Can combine various powers

Cons

1. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process. Individual has to voluntarily choose to make more. 

 

So in this process we are trying to eliminate the con that the "spirit web gets messed up". We theorized that it has to do with the identity of the power taken. You suggested getting a person who can store their identity to do like they do theoretically with metal minds. The reason why I said you might as well just make a unsealed metal mind then, because you eliminate the Pro of hemalurgy by trying to eliminate a con. This would be the new spread on hemalurgy

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

 

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. shards and certain powers can control you

3. power stolen is weaker than original

4. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process.

 

You now need someone that can store identity AND has the ability you want. The person then has to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. You now have to find ANOTHER individual with the ability to store identity AND has the next ability you want. You then have to get that person to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. Rinse and repeat for every single ability. Or as you said, they have to also have the ability for gold, to survive the experience. But if that is required, then you might as well need a person with ALL the abilities, so you can repeatedly stab out all of the abilities while they are storing their identity and healing so they don't die and you can do it again. So the one Con for unsealed metalminds, is now a Con for hemalurgy, negating the one major Pro. 

That is why I suggested looking in a different direction. Don't look for a specific individual, look for a spike or bind point that will solve the issue. Thereby hemalurgy's main pro remains viable. I came up with an example in my head last night that I am going to share. I don't think it is necessary at this point, but I am rather proud of it, and wanted to relate it anyway.

Let us say for instance you don't like having to get up to flip the light switch to turn on all your lights. So you get this wireless remote that you can put anywhere or keep on you, that enables you to push a button and all the lights go on. So you won't have to get up. Problem is, the wireless remote has to always be on to accomplish this, so it drains the battery and dies quickly and from very little use. To solve this issue, you plug the wireless remote into the wall so it is always charging, and thereby won't die. Thing is, the wall socket is by the light switch. So you solved the battery drain, but now you have to get up to turn on the light switch. The very thing you got the wireless remote to prevent. So I would suggest looking into ways to include a longer lasting battery, or reduce the power drain on the remote. That way the charge will last longer, and you can still turn on the lights from the comfort of where ever you want. So I am not saying get rid of the remote. Just direct the means of fixing the problem in a different direction that still utilizes the remote's benefits.

 

edit: Looking at the hemalurgic table, duralumin spike steals identity. Maybe find a way to stab away the identity, and see if stabbing the ability you want shortly after hopefully in time so as the person has not died, but after the identity was removed?

Thank you for clearing that up  

By the way, I really like your theory on how it's the conflicting Identity of what's in the Hemalurgic spike and the recipient's spiritweb, and that being what causes the damage to your spiritweb. Would you mind if I included it in a post I'm planning on making about theories as to why Hemalurgy causes damage to the soul?

Edited January 12, 2022 by Trusk'our

[Pathfinder]

22 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does gold healing only heal portions of the spiritweb that don't currently have a spike in them?   Would you have to respike with duralumin every time you try to heal the person?   

Could a powerful enough duralumin compounder use their stored connection to convince a person to willingly tap a medallion to heal themselves enough to get a few spikes if it could?  

Not that any of this would ever liberate Kandra.  I wanted to think that a blessing of stability combined with an ability to be a coppercloud might protect them from ruins influence but with Harmony at the reigns I don't there is anything in Scadrials power that could negate it hence I jump back to old magic via the nightwatcher.  

 

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Thank you for clearing that up  

By the way, I really like your theory on how it's the conflicting Identity of what's in the Hemalurgic spike and the recipient's spiritweb, and that being what causes the damage to your spiritweb. Would you mind if I included it in a post I'm planning on making about theories as to why Hemalurgy causes damage to the soul?

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine and @Trusk'our So first and foremost I want to preface what I am about to say with I have not extensively read up on hemalurgy, so I could be making some gross assumptions. For instance I had forgotten there was even a spike that stole identity, which makes sense for there to be one. I did a little brief digging to see if this has come up, and Brandon has said repeatedly anything concerning hemalurgy and identity he is RAFOing because he intends to dig into it later. Considering some other comments, it looks like it is going to come up in the Lost Metal, so our questions may be answered soonish. 

Going on the theory/premise that the main cause of the distortion to the spirit-web is because of the identity issues of the foreign spirit-web being spiked to it, and that by spiking out the identity first, and then stealing the power may resolve this. As I typed this I tried doing some more digging, and now I am not totally sure the spiritual identity could be stolen, or if it could be, then that would prevent power usage/recovery because the reason why Miles could still heal back, is he is still spiritually connected to the power. Hmmm, this stuff gets weird. I will post the WoB that I have been reading that confuse the issue lol. Feel free to use the theory on the identity, but it looks like there are a whole bunch of other moving parts to it that I do not fully understand. 

 

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

 

Questioner

So, Miles Hundredlives. If you were to spike his Allomantic gold out of him, would that change his Identity such that he could no longer access his metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

That would not necessarily change his Identity, but it would change his Investiture. So if you took off the piece of his soul that could do Allomancy, and then gave him his metalminds. Well, no... No, this is more complicated than I was assuming. So you're saying if someone took away his ability to do Allomancy, could he still access his Feruchemy metalminds. Yes he could. He could still do that. That should work just fine. 

Questioner

Do the metalminds kind of have a pointer to his Identity, they don't have a copy of his Identity that they're keyed to? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah... he is still him unless you spike him and do something with the Identity specifically. 

Questioner

So you could potentially steal his Identity.

Brandon Sanderson

That strays into RAFO territory, so we'll go ahead and give you a RAFO card. But simply taking it away would not change his Identity to the point that it would prevent-- Good question. Very detailed.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

Questioner

In terms of discussing Identity, I know that in Emperor's Soul, they talk about Identity, and the Parshendi talk about losing their Identity, and then I was just rereading Bands of Mourning, and one of the kandra talks about how the spikes are their Identity. Are all of those things connected somehow or are they different forms of Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

They are connected, although the Parshendi losing their identity is a little more metaphorical. But yeah, the idea of these things-- Identity is an innate attribute in the cosmere that is related to your soul, your spirit, and it is one of the things that Hemalurgy can fiddle with and Feruchemy can fiddle with. It's kind of important to how the [Metallic] Arts play out, but it's important to all the magics...

Identity is involved in why you can't use another person's metalminds, right, that kind of thing. And those are all related. The Parshendi is more metaphorical. 

Questioner

I wondered because it's always capitalized, in the book.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, and it's done intentionally. Peter always asks, "Are you sure this one is capitalized?" "Yeah."

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)