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Syl becomes human?


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Just now, Frustration said:

No, he was going to take bridge four and make a run for it.

Afterwards he had no reason to stay other then simple curiosity.

Yeah he was. Until he had an option that was 100x better. Go from an uncertain fate, with the options of either starting up a mercenary group, becoming bandits, or splitting up to try and hide amongst normal society, to one of the safest jobs for soldiers, with guaranteed pay, a commander who has shown his willingness to sacrifice greatly to keep you alive, free equipment, and the chance to train your men in ideal conditions. Who in their right mind would give that up to walk away into the wilderness so that Sadeas could send soldiers out to hunt them down and kill them. It's not like Kaladin completely abandoned the idea either. I believe that during a conversation with Moash, Kaladin brought up leaving as an option, but said that it would be better if they left with all the bridgemen, as a trained army a thousand strong.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How much of that was RoW? How much of that actually incapacitated him?

He was getting better by the end of OB, and there was a full year in between.

Really Kaladin has ended every book in the same state.

1. So a book series doesn't matter, and you have to do all the development in one book in order for it to matter? We had a rehashing of Kaladin's problems in the beginning. We saw what Sigzil almost dying did to him.

2. Getting better? When was Kaladin getting better in OB? Was it when he first froze on the battlefield? When he obsessively pushed the group on a mission to save Dalinar? Or  was it when he completely failed to swear the fourth ideal? At no point in that book did Kaladin do anything more to address his issues than say "I'm fine" and continue to try to soldier on, ignoring it as best he could. His development in OB was basically: 1. Love triangles are stupid, Shallan and Adolin are a good couple, I don't love Shallan. (Thank you Brandon) 2. Ignoring depression and battle shock is stupid and only works until it doesn't. When it doesn't, and you're on the battlefield, you'll get people killed because of your inability to save them. 3. Amaram is dead now. Yay. This changes nothing about the long-lasting trauma he inflicted on me, but at least we don't have to worry about him causing anyone else long-lasting trauma. 4. I can't swear the fourth ideal, because I don't see purpose in life if I can't protect everyone.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Would you prefer I call it convuluted?

BAM get's released Adolin swears three-five ideals in a row and then dies in a single chapter.

I mean, he could do it, but why? That just feels forced

Why would Adolin need to swear oaths? We don't know what a bond with a deadeye looks like, but RoW really looked to me like Adolin and Maya had deepened their bond to each other, without Adolin swearing an oath. Besides that, this was just an example. My point is that killing Kaladin solely for the sake of showing that characters are not invincible is bad writing.

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian winning in any manor doesn't mean anything if there isn't danger to the characters. It's not just a SA problem it's been consistent with all of his works.

Again, we had this argument before, and I disagree. That's the whole point of our bet.

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34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah he was. Until he had an option that was 100x better. Go from an uncertain fate, with the options of either starting up a mercenary group, becoming bandits, or splitting up to try and hide amongst normal society, to one of the safest jobs for soldiers, with guaranteed pay, a commander who has shown his willingness to sacrifice greatly to keep you alive, free equipment, and the chance to train your men in ideal conditions. Who in their right mind would give that up to walk away into the wilderness so that Sadeas could send soldiers out to hunt them down and kill them. It's not like Kaladin completely abandoned the idea either. I believe that during a conversation with Moash, Kaladin brought up leaving as an option, but said that it would be better if they left with all the bridgemen, as a trained army a thousand strong.

By the end of WoK Kaladin still is unsure which path he wants to take, going so far as to say he thinks that bridge four will do whatever he does, and he doesn't know what he wants to do. On a pure character standpoint, he can get his men into a far safer position away from fighting altogether.

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

1. So a book series doesn't matter, and you have to do all the development in one book in order for it to matter? We had a rehashing of Kaladin's problems in the beginning. We saw what Sigzil almost dying did to him.

When does someone say something to Kaladin that completly floors him outside of that scene?

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

2. Getting better? When was Kaladin getting better in OB? Was it when he first froze on the battlefield? When he obsessively pushed the group on a mission to save Dalinar? Or  was it when he completely failed to swear the fourth ideal? At no point in that book did Kaladin do anything more to address his issues than say "I'm fine" and continue to try to soldier on, ignoring it as best he could. His development in OB was basically: 1. Love triangles are stupid, Shallan and Adolin are a good couple, I don't love Shallan. (Thank you Brandon) 2. Ignoring depression and battle shock is stupid and only works until it doesn't. When it doesn't, and you're on the battlefield, you'll get people killed because of your inability to save them. 3. Amaram is dead now. Yay. This changes nothing about the long-lasting trauma he inflicted on me, but at least we don't have to worry about him causing anyone else long-lasting trauma. 4. I can't swear the fourth ideal, because I don't see purpose in life if I can't protect everyone.

He was looking at a rock he put water on and said something to the effect of "He couldn't get rid of the darkness but he didn't have to let it rule him."

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why would Adolin need to swear oaths? We don't know what a bond with a deadeye looks like, but RoW really looked to me like Adolin and Maya had deepened their bond to each other, without Adolin swearing an oath. Besides that, this was just an example. My point is that killing Kaladin solely for the sake of showing that characters are not invincible is bad writing.

Because without the tools other radiants have it doesn't show them at risk.

And losing one character to highten stakes isn't that bad.

Imagine Odium's Champion, who for the rest of this I will just call El, shows up in Shinovar to kill Ishar so Dalinar can't learn from him, Szeth and Kal go to stop him, and he beats the crap out of both of them, and kills Kaladin. And is only driven back by Nightblood. All without revealing that he is the champion. Then at the end of the book Dalinar goes to the top of Urithiru to find who his opponent is, and it's El. The guy who 2v1'd Kaladin and Szeth, powered up with Yelig-nar and now Dalinar has to beat him in single combat. End that part of the book.

That would be such a moment of sheer dread, something to make the climax's of the last four books look like children's novels.

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Again, we had this argument before, and I disagree. That's the whole point of our bet.

Alright I'll let this point be from now on.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

By the end of WoK Kaladin still is unsure which path he wants to take, going so far as to say he thinks that bridge four will do whatever he does, and he doesn't know what he wants to do. On a pure character standpoint, he can get his men into a far safer position away from fighting altogether.

Actually, Kaladin is only unsure about what he's going to do until Dalinar offers him a job as his bodyguard, agrees to put him in charge of a battalion of former bridgemen, pay the bridgemen as a normal lighteyed honorguard would (triple standard soldier's pay), let Kaladin train them with full requisition rights, make his own command structure, and put them on patrol duty for the next year. After which he just about immediately accepted, as just about any sane person would. His men will be safer and happier as bodyguards that don't have to go into battle, are in high-ranking social positions as opposed to being seen as deserters, and get paid incredibly large amounts of money to stand around watching people.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When does someone say something to Kaladin that completly floors him outside of that scene?

No one else both knows Kaladin well enough and is malicious enough to want to convince him to commit suicide. What would Kaladin have done if Syl told him that jumping into Honor's chasm was the best choice?

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He was looking at a rock he put water on and said something to the effect of "He couldn't get rid of the darkness but he didn't have to let it rule him."

That... just means he's currently doing better (He has seasonal depression, and this is just after a victory where everyone survived fine) and that he's just going to continue trying to soldier on. Not that he's actually going to try to get help, which he desperately needs, but that he's going to continue pretending that he doesn't need help.

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because without the tools other radiants have it doesn't show them at risk.

And losing one character to highten stakes isn't that bad.

I'm not an author, and that was just an example. Maybe you could give Adolin radiant powers early in the book. Maybe he and Maya skipped oaths because of their pre-un-deadeying bond. Or maybe killing Adolin off would be a bad way to introduce tension.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Imagine Odium's Champion, who for the rest of this I will just call El, shows up in Shinovar to kill Ishar so Dalinar can't learn from him, Szeth and Kal go to stop him, and he beats the crap out of both of them, and kills Kaladin. And is only driven back by Nightblood. All without revealing that he is the champion. Then at the end of the book Dalinar goes to the top of Urithiru to find who his opponent is, and it's El. The guy who 2v1'd Kaladin and Szeth, and now Dalinar has to beat him in single combat. End that part of the book.

I really don't want this to turn into Marvel/Dragon Ball. "Oh no, its a new villian! Watch as they kill some random characters no one cares about" "Oh no, it's a new villian! This one's really bad, he beat two main characters and killed one of them! Oh no, how will the main character beat him? Whatever shall they do?"

If anything, seeing Ishar getting killed by El, considering how much he got hyped up by beating five windrunners at once, would be better. Especially if El claimed Ishar's honorblade and used it to utterly wreck Kal and Szeth.

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30 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Actually, Kaladin is only unsure about what he's going to do until Dalinar offers him a job as his bodyguard, agrees to put him in charge of a battalion of former bridgemen, pay the bridgemen as a normal lighteyed honorguard would (triple standard soldier's pay), let Kaladin train them with full requisition rights, make his own command structure, and put them on patrol duty for the next year. After which he just about immediately accepted, as just about any sane person would. His men will be safer and happier as bodyguards that don't have to go into battle, are in high-ranking social positions as opposed to being seen as deserters, and get paid incredibly large amounts of money to stand around watching people.

alright

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No one else both knows Kaladin well enough and is malicious enough to want to convince him to commit suicide. What would Kaladin have done if Syl told him that jumping into Honor's chasm was the best choice?

Was Kal in the same mental position in those two times?

33 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That... just means he's currently doing better (He has seasonal depression, and this is just after a victory where everyone survived fine) and that he's just going to continue trying to soldier on. Not that he's actually going to try to get help, which he desperately needs, but that he's going to continue pretending that he doesn't need help.

I didn't get that impression

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I really don't want this to turn into Marvel/Dragon Ball. "Oh no, its a new villian! Watch as they kill some random characters no one cares about" "Oh no, it's a new villian! This one's really bad, he beat two main characters and killed one of them! Oh no, how will the main character beat him? Whatever shall they do?"

It wouldn't be an eternal thing but it needs to happen at some point or another.

35 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If anything, seeing Ishar getting killed by El, considering how much he got hyped up by beating five windrunners at once, would be better. Especially if El claimed Ishar's honorblade and used it to utterly wreck Kal and Szeth.

that would be good, not quite the same impact but prety good.

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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Was Kal in the same mental position in those two times?

No. He was worse off when Moash talked to him. He might not have wanted to give up at that point, but his nightmares, his constant exhaustion, everything about him besides his desire to keep going was worse. Now here comes Moash, the perfect person with the perfect knowledge to utterly destroy that desire. To convince Kaladin that it's better to jump into the chasm than to try and save people who are already dead.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I didn't get that impression

Well, considering the way that the books went....

 

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7 hours ago, Nameless said:

If that was true, then when Dalinar told Kaladin that he had been wrong to dismiss him from duty, Kaladin would have gone "Storms yes you were! I'm gonna grab my spear and get back out onto that battlefield before Sigzil makes the Windrunners too bureaucratic!". Kaladin's arc after KoW will probably involve less stabby-stabby and more stichy-stichy. He's going to be a surgeon and a mental health expert, not a battlefield commander.

I really, really hope this is not the case.  It sounds like this is something you would enjoy but for me personally, that's about the worst possible plot arc.  I'm open to Kaladin either living or dying.  I'm not open to him being a mental health expert as his primary role.  Frankly, I'd probably skip his chapters in SA5 if that's where his plot goes and he's my favorite character in the books up to this point.  Kaladin preaching to the cast and audience about how to properly treat folks with mental health challenges is something I'm not interested in reading about.

Personally - I think that the end of RoW showed us Kaladin getting back on the horse.  He's not going to continue as a surgeon and he's not going to become a mental health expert.  He's going to get back to fighting - the whole point of his character arc in RoW was that he had to overcome his belief that he was failing if he couldn't save everyone.  His character arc was him coming to terms with and understanding how to deal with a life where he does have friends die in battle regularly.  He probably won't go back to being exactly the same as he was in WoK or WoR, but he'll be back in action.  I think he'll have some mental health related plot points - sympathizing with and trying to help people who struggle with depression.  But, I don't think that will be a main or even secondary focus of his plot in SA5.

I'd rather he survives SA5 and he could have an interesting story in the back 5.  I agree with those who are saying it would make sense thematically that he is forced to choose to save himself and let someone else make the sacrifice - it would make for a great story for him in the back 5 processing the after effects of being forced to do that.  I'd be sad, but accept it if he does die in SA5.  I think there could be a great story told about his death too.

 

Oh - and to the topic of this thread - please let Syl stay a spren :).  But - I do admit there are hints she might become human, or that at least it may be something that the characters consider.

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1 minute ago, Nameless said:

No. He was worse off when Moash talked to him. He might not have wanted to give up at that point, but his nightmares, his constant exhaustion, everything about him besides his desire to keep going was worse. Now here comes Moash, the perfect person with the perfect knowledge to utterly destroy that desire. To convince Kaladin that it's better to jump into the chasm than to try and save people who are already dead.

He was far worse at the Chasm

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, considering the way that the book went....

OB or RoW

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12 hours ago, Frustration said:

He was looking at a rock he put water on and said something to the effect of "He couldn't get rid of the darkness but he didn't have to let it rule him."

Recognising you have a problem is not magically fixing said problem. You said that I don't have the monopoly on dealing with depression. That's true, I don't. I do somehow doubt that you have had to deal with it though, otherwise you would know what absolute rubbish it is to take this one line as "he's getting better."

And yes, he's worse in RoW... Because he doesn't get the help he needs after the revelation you commented on from OB and assumed he could keep going. So, he kept going, he kept seeing people he cared about die, and he kept feeling like a failure. And that would, in turn, make him a little bit worse, and a little bit weaker, and a little bit less able to protect people in the future. It's a spiral he's stuck on, and he can't find a way off it by himself, and he's not willing to open up enough to get the help he needs.

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1 hour ago, Bort said:

Recognising you have a problem is not magically fixing said problem. You said that I don't have the monopoly on dealing with depression. That's true, I don't. I do somehow doubt that you have had to deal with it though, otherwise you would know what absolute rubbish it is to take this one line as "he's getting better."

And yes, he's worse in RoW... Because he doesn't get the help he needs after the revelation you commented on from OB and assumed he could keep going.

Are you saying my expirences did not happen because they don't match your own?

The fact is there is a single choice I can make and depression goes away, I just have to stay phyisically active. Others need social interactions, and some have it far worse to the point of medical attention.

At the time of OB it didn't seem that bad for Kal, circumstances, like military action, can cause spikes in suicidal tendencies, which is why I felt that after WoK, doubtlessly the book where circumctances were worst for him, he never got into the same position up to RoW. Additionally WoK-OB were largy planned together, RoW was not, it is well within the realms of possibility that Kal was planned to get better after this but Brandon decided to change it.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

So, he kept going, he kept seeing people he cared about die, and he kept feeling like a failure. And that would, in turn, make him a little bit worse, and a little bit weaker, and a little bit less able to protect people in the future. It's a spiral he's stuck on, and he can't find a way off it by himself, and he's not willing to open up enough to get the help he needs.

And what help is that?

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Are you saying my expirences did not happen because they don't match your own?

The fact is there is a single choice I can make and depression goes away, I just have to stay phyisically active. Others need social interactions, and some have it far worse to the point of medical attention.

At the time of OB it didn't seem that bad for Kal, circumstances, like military enrollment, can cause spikes in suicidal tendencies, which is why I felt that after WoK, doubtlessly the book where circumctances were worst for him, he never got into the same position up to RoW. Additionally WoK-OB were largy planned together, RoW was not, it is well within the realms of possibility that Kal was planned to get better after this but Brandon decided to change it.

And what help is that?

So, let me get this right. You have a "single choice" for your depression to go away. You have to stay physically active. So, what happens when you stop being active? You find yourself getting depressed again, yes? So, your "single choice" isn't a cure for your depression, it's a temporary fix to make you feel better for a while, correct?

With that in mind, how could you possibly look at a single line and say "Well, that means he's getting better"? You should be well aware that depression doesn't work that way. Otherwise, you'd not need to stay active to keep the depression at bay.

And I would just like to point out that you've been very dismissive of my experiences in this thread, basically telling me I'm wrong about my own depression, because it doesn't match up with your experience. And no, I didn't say your experiences didn't happen, I said I doubted them, because of how dismissive you're being, and how flippant you're being with regards to Kaladin's depression. Then you immediately jump into it again, saying it didn't seem too bad for him in OB. Did you even read the book? Kaladin is seriously damaged in OB. Just because that may not match up with your personal experiences, doesn't mean you should be so dismissive of others discussing it, because it does match up with their experiences of depression.

So, does that bit mean you are saying our experiences didn't happen because they don't match your own?

As for what help Kaladin needs, therapy would be good, or even an environment where he isn't forced to watch people die, and a friend to talk to. More than that though, he needs to figure out how to open up about all of the stuff he's going through. You know, his story arc in RoW.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A man who takes the broken husks of people and makes them a team. Do you think that that man does not have the determination to take the neccesary steps?

First off I have never said anything reguarding your expirience with depression, other than you are not the only one to have it. 

Secondly I did read the book, and my conclusions are drawn from the facts and the facts are OB has over 454,00 words with Kaladin having about 74,000 of them, with all of that, about 1-2 thousand show him in any real mental trouble, that being the Kholinar sequence and a short amount in Shadesmar. That's micro, and complelty understandable, what would you do if two of your friends tried to kill each other?

With all that in mind, and Kal saying he's going to do better at the end, Why wouldn't you assume he's going to improve?

  1. Therapy hasn't been invented yet
  2. name one person after OB excluding teft who died.
  3. He can talk to Syl or any of the bridge four members, Dalinar, Adolin, pick one.
  4. His arc in RoW was "How can I become Roshar's Batman?"

No, I don't think he has the determination to take the necessary steps. If he did, he wouldn't have so many problems come RoW. When you're feeling that low, caring for yourself is far, far harder than caring for others. Caring for others actually helps you feel marginally better, where trying to look after yourself, you just end up staring at what you perceive to be your own failings.

You've never said anything about my depression, apart from every comment in the thread arguing we're wrong in our interpretation because it doesn't match your own experiences. You accuse me of dismissing your experiences, yet you don't seem to understand that you've been doing exactly the same to us this entire thread.

If that's your only takeaway from OB about Kaladin's mental health, you really need to reread it. He's basically catatonic in Shadesmar, partially due to seeing one group of friends butchering another group of friends, only to be put down by a third group of friends, then seeing your "best friend" killing the person you're supposed to be protecting. And while that certainly would have hurt Kaladin, it was his own feelings of uselessness that utterly crippled him.

This is why he was so focused on reaching Dalinar. Because there was someone he might actually be able to help, and that would help banish the shadows from his mind... For a short time at least. It was a desperate clinging on to something vaguely resembling purpose, to try to keep his head above water, metaphorically speaking.

I wouldn't assume he's going to improve because saying you're going to do better is just the first step. There is still a hell of a long way to go before he'd even consider himself to be even a little bit healed.

1. Therapy not existing in the world in a formal capacity does not change the fact that it would be incredibly helpful for him, and if anything, makes his actions in RoW even more important because he's not only changing how he views himself, but how everyone views mental health problems. Huge step forward.

2. Kaladin spent a year between OB and RoW on the front lines. How many people do you expect died during those conflicts? Now imagine that each of those deaths is utterly pointless because your enemy can simply respawn. How crappy would that make you feel, assuming you were already in a highly depressed state?

3. You read the first part of the sentence, but not the second part. Yes, he has plenty of people to talk to, but he also needs to learn how to open up. Until he can do that, talking about his problems is impossible. His mind would just shut down at the attempt. Trust me, this is a big part of my mental health problems, so I know how it goes. Also, it's really not very easy. Even if you can open yourself up like that, actually doing it with someone you are close to and who knows you well is really difficult.

4. Characters can have more than one arc. You may just see the mental health stuff as a tangent to Kaladin flying around kicking ass, but for me at least, I view it the other way around. Kaladin learning about his mental health issues and learning how to deal with them is far more important to character development than kicking yet another fused's behind. To me, at least.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not sure if Ishar would make Syl human, but I did find something in Words of Radiance that got me thinking. In WoR Kaladin keeps mentioning that he's afraid that the lighteyes could somehow take away his powers / connection with Syl. He recognizes the irrationality and there is of course the whole issue of whether he would hold to his oaths, but it made me wonder whether or not this could be foreshadowing of Ishar stealing Kaladin's connection with Syl, which could of course be related to him making Syl human.  

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  • 3 weeks later...
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I'm not sure if Ishar would make Syl human, but I did find something in Words of Radiance that got me thinking. In WoR Kaladin keeps mentioning that he's afraid that the lighteyes could somehow take away his powers / connection with Syl. He recognizes the irrationality and there is of course the whole issue of whether he would hold to his oaths, but it made me wonder whether or not this could be foreshadowing of Ishar stealing Kaladin's connection with Syl, which could of course be related to him making Syl human.

Way to bring the discussion back on topic

All I have to say is that this was the most fascinating digression I've ever seen

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