Syl becomes human?

[forum user]

Has anyone suggested the idea that Syl becomes human, as throughout the books she just wants to explore and experience new things. 

This would also pair nicely with the idea of Kaladin stepping back from battle as then after sly becoming human they work together helping treat and heal those with mental health issues - as we've as seen Syl struggle in this aspect herself.

Any Thoughts?

This is my first theory post, so bare with...

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by forum user

[Olmund]

Autocorrect, how we love thee. It took me a bit to realize you were talking about Syl, though I think I've seen that same autocorrect before (which is why the name rang a bell, and I initially thought it must be some incredibly minor character I had forgotten about).

In any case, yes, there are quite a few of us who think that Syl becoming human could be part of what Ishar's experiments in Rhythm of War were foreshadowing. We know Honorspren already live the longest post-conversion, and Syl's character arcs have involved her becoming more "human," so it's possible that eventually her cognitive identity will become similar enough to human biology that she will actually be able to fully survive the transformation (unlike those Honorspren who only survived for minutes). I imagine some Syladin shippers are banking on this.

There has also been some theorizing about the Siah Aimians (the blue ones, like Axies the Collector). Someone noted that their strong tie to the cognitive realm (hence their reverse shadow and ability to manipulate their appearance) as well as their blue color may hint at having Honorspren heritage. I personally think that to be unlikely (assuming Honorspren do not predate the arrival of Tanavast/Honor on Roshar), but it's interesting to think about.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I definitely think that syl will become human(or siah aimian or whatever), it is the natural completion of her arc. She might even have adhd now that she would become physical.

I am interested in what would happen to kaladin's powers then

[forum user]

 

1 hour ago, Olmund said:

Autocorrect, how we love thee. It took me a bit to realize you were talking about Syl, though I think I've seen that same autocorrect before (which is why the name rang a bell, and I initially thought it must be some incredibly minor character I had forgotten about).

In any case, yes, there are quite a few of us who think that Syl becoming human could be part of what Ishar's experiments in Rhythm of War were foreshadowing. We know Honorspren already live the longest post-conversion, and Syl's character arcs have involved her becoming more "human," so it's possible that eventually her cognitive identity will become similar enough to human biology that she will actually be able to fully survive the transformation (unlike those Honorspren who only survived for minutes). I imagine some Syladin shippers are banking on this.

There has also been some theorizing about the Siah Aimians (the blue ones, like Axies the Collector). Someone noted that their strong tie to the cognitive realm (hence their reverse shadow and ability to manipulate their appearance) as well as their blue color may hint at having Honorspren heritage. I personally think that to be unlikely (assuming Honorspren do not predate the arrival of Tanavast/Honor on Roshar), but it's interesting to think about.

Haha thank you for the catch! A dyslexic + autocorrect = a lot of errors haha

I haven't heard the Siah Aimian theory before!

Also, feel Syl becoming human fits Kaladins arc well. Be that if he dies in book 5 he leaves a human Syl behind, if he is a part of a new oath pact leaving Syl behind human (would be heartbreaking) and also if he survives book 5 they set up a Hospital to tackle mental health together, allowing Kaladin to leave the battlefield.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 hours ago, forum user said:

if he is a part of a new oath pact leaving Syl behind human (would be heartbreaking)

I'm actually more worried about it going the other direction. Imo, Ishar's plan is to use spren to reforge the Oathpact, since unlike humans, they can't break their oaths. And as someone mentioned above, honorspren survive the longest in his experiments, and Syl is becoming more humanlike as the bond progresses...

[Milk]

21 hours ago, Olmund said:

There has also been some theorizing about the Siah Aimians (the blue ones, like Axies the Collector). Someone noted that their strong tie to the cognitive realm (hence their reverse shadow and ability to manipulate their appearance) as well as their blue color may hint at having Honorspren heritage. I personally think that to be unlikely (assuming Honorspren do not predate the arrival of Tanavast/Honor on Roshar), but it's interesting to think about.

WoB is that they're not, but he notes they are connected in some way. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Milk said:

WoB is that they're not, but he notes they are connected in some way. 

Annoyingly, that just confirms they aren't honorspren-human, not that they aren't pure honorspren or honorspren-singer...

[Olmund]

3 hours ago, Milk said:

WoB is that they're not, but he notes they are connected in some way. 

Thanks for the info.

15 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Annoyingly, that just confirms they aren't honorspren-human, not that they aren't pure honorspren or honorspren-singer...

True, but the way he dismissed the idea does sound like he views them as completely separate creatures (tied mainly by their connection to the cognitive realm). If I had to throw out a wild guess, I'd say the Siah Aimians may have been humans who used the change dawnshard to transform themselves into spren-like cognitive beings in order to achieve immortality, similar to the Returned on Nalthis. This might have been part of what prompted the scouring -- other Aimians (particularly the sleepless) did not like the fact that the Siah Aimians were drawing too much attention to the dawnshard, and thus orchestrated the destruction/sealing of Aimia.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Olmund said:

True, but the way he dismissed the idea does sound like he views them as completely separate creatures

Tbf, we don't have the audio, so we don't actually know how he said that. (Now, I don't really want them to be honorspren, but Brandon looooves his sneaky answers...)

[+Child of Hodor]

On 1/6/2022 at 9:10 AM, Olmund said:

There has also been some theorizing about the Siah Aimians (the blue ones, like Axies the Collector). Someone noted that their strong tie to the cognitive realm (hence their reverse shadow and ability to manipulate their appearance) as well as their blue color may hint at having Honorspren heritage. I personally think that to be unlikely (assuming Honorspren do not predate the arrival of Tanavast/Honor on Roshar), but it's interesting to think about.

On 1/7/2022 at 6:27 AM, Milk said:

WoB is that they're not, but he notes they are connected in some way. 

On 1/7/2022 at 10:14 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Annoyingly, that just confirms they aren't honorspren-human, not that they aren't pure honorspren or honorspren-singer...

I had that theory. 

I really don't want Syl to become a siah aimian or other physical realm being. I suppose it would be fine as long as she doesn't become Kaladin's wife. Too many issues with it like how she bonded him initially without his knowledge and they are stuck with each other unless Kaladin breaks the bond. With the bond they are functionally the same person at the spiritual level.  It's romantic in a way they are "soulmates", but in another way Kaladin is kind of marrying himself. I don't like it. 

[Anomander Rake]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Syl's "becoming more human" just her mental capacity in the physical realm increasing as her nahel bond with Kal progresses, and thus her regaining access to her full personality and human-like behaviors and idiosyncrasies?  I haven't really felt like her arc thus far has pointed to her fully changing like that - she is still very much a spren who loves soaring with the winds, I cannot see her being bogged down by all that comes with flesh and blood.

[Olmund]

59 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Syl's "becoming more human" just her mental capacity in the physical realm increasing as her nahel bond with Kal progresses, and thus her regaining access to her full personality and human-like behaviors and idiosyncrasies? 

That's fairly spot on for the first three books, but as of RoW it's pretty undeniably something else -- she went to Dalinar with the express purpose of understanding Kaladin's mental illness, wanting to feel what he felt despite the consequences. Dalinar refused, though he intuited that it may be possible. In the end, a bondsmith wasn't needed for her to achieve greater empathy for Kaladin (she seemed to achieve that simply by trying to strengthen their bond and unlocking pre-recreance memories she had sealed away), but the groundwork for a bondsmith playing a role in making a spren human-like has been laid (culminating in Ishar's experiments).

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

I haven't really felt like her arc thus far has pointed to her fully changing like that - she is still very much a spren who loves soaring with the winds, I cannot see her being bogged down by all that comes with flesh and blood.

It would be an incredible sacrifice for her, no doubt -- but her desire to become more human despite the consequences has already been established in RoW.

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I had that theory. 

I really don't want Syl to become a siah aimian or other physical realm being. I suppose it would be fine as long as she doesn't become Kaladin's wife. Too many issues with it like how she bonded him initially without his knowledge and they are stuck with each other unless Kaladin breaks the bond. With the bond they are functionally the same person at the spiritual level.  It's romantic in a way they are "soulmates", but in another way Kaladin is kind of marrying himself. I don't like it. 

Sorry for failing to give you proper credit. I agree that the Syladin ship has issues, and personally I don't think that's where the story is headed. I'm still fairly convinced Kaladin's story is coming to an end in the next book; his death is one of the few ways Brandon can offer significant closure for the first half of SA (since he was the main viewpoint of the first book, and has had a massive presence in every book since). The only thing that has me wavering in that prediction is that an honorable, meaningful death for Kaladin would run the risk of being too similar to Vin's sacrifice in HoA.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 minutes ago, Olmund said:

she went to Dalinar with the express purpose of understanding Kaladin's mental illness, wanting to feel what he felt despite the consequences

Also there is a very good chance that she will have adhd if she becomes a human, because Brandon has said that he based her to be like his son who has ADHD.

 

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

really don't want Syl to become a siah aimian or other physical realm being. I suppose it would be fine as long as she doesn't become Kaladin's wife. Too many issues with it like how she bonded him initially without his knowledge and they are stuck with each other unless Kaladin breaks the bond. With the bond they are functionally the same person at the spiritual level.  It's romantic in a way they are "soulmates", but in another way Kaladin is kind of marrying himself. I don't like it. 

If syl did not become kaladin's girlfriend, would you still not like it? Because we can be sure there won't be syladin at all. Simply because Kaladin has not yet shown any attraction to syl at all. No scene where she thinks she looks beautiful or cute. Nothing.

11 minutes ago, Olmund said:

I'm still fairly convinced Kaladin's story is coming to an end in the next book; his death is one of the few ways Brandon can offer significant closure for the first half of SA (since he was the main viewpoint of the first book, and has had a massive presence in every book since). The only thing that has me wavering in that prediction is that an honorable, meaningful death for Kaladin would run the risk of being too similar to Vin's sacrifice in HoA.

It would be in very bad taste to kill off a character who is recognised for his representation of depression and has survived 2 suicide attempts. We can be sure he won't die.

[Anomander Rake]

5 minutes ago, Olmund said:

That's fairly spot on for the first three books, but as of RoW it's pretty undeniably something else...a bondsmith wasn't needed for her to achieve greater empathy for Kaladin (she seemed to achieve that simply by trying to strengthen their bond and unlocking pre-recreance memories she had sealed away), but the groundwork for a bondsmith playing a role in making a spren human-like has been laid (culminating in Ishar's experiments).

It would be an incredible sacrifice for her, no doubt -- but her desire to become more human despite the consequences has already been established in RoW.

Well put, ty, that did a good job of tying things together for me.  Syl being a member of Oathpact 2.0 would be a wonderfully horrible end for her arc.

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

don't want Syl to become a siah aimian or other physical realm being. I suppose it would be fine as long as she doesn't become Kaladin's wife. Too many issues with it like how she bonded him initially without his knowledge and they are stuck with each other unless Kaladin breaks the bond. With the bond they are functionally the same person at the spiritual level.  It's romantic in a way they are "soulmates", but in another way Kaladin is kind of marrying himself. I don't like it. 

14 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Sorry for failing to give you proper credit. I agree that the Syladin ship has issues, and personally I don't think that's where the story is headed.

Same.  The inherent emotion behind nahel bond always struck me as similar to that of the Warder - Aes Sedai bond, something extremely intimate and personal without being romantic (though ofc feelings could develop beyond the bond), knowing the other as you know yourself, sharing your everything and existence.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

It would be in very bad taste to kill off a character who is recognised for his representation of depression and has survived 2 suicide attempts.

How so?

9 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

We can be sure he won't die.

We can but not for that reason.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

How so?

Because the entire point of his arc and story is that his life matters? That he may fail and make mistakes, but he isn't as worthless as his mind tells him? That he deserves to live.

You can't kill a character like that lol

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Because the entire point of his arc and story is that his life matters? That he may fail and make mistakes, but he isn't as worthless as his mind tells him? That he deserves to live.

You can't kill a character like that lol

You can.

Why is his life suddenly more valuable than someone who's arc is sacrifice?

Why can't he make a heroic sacrifice and save the day?

[NameIess]

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can.

Why is his life suddenly more valuable than someone who's arc is sacrifice?

Why can't he make a heroic sacrifice and save the day?

Why can't Adolin bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner? Because a big part of his character, and his story arc (especially in RoW) is about feeling useless and insecure in a world filled with gods. He's an incredible soldier who within a year went from being one of the most powerful and important people on the planet, an essential part of every battlefield he fought on, to being outclassed in basically every way by hundreds of people. He's the "normal person" in the group. If he simply gains radiant powers, it would feel cheap. That's not to say that Brandon couldn't write Adolin gaining Radiant powers or Kaladin sacrificing himself well, because I don't doubt that he could. I'm just saying that given the characterization Kaladin has now, his arc is leading towards him surviving, not dying heroically.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Death has never been difficult for Kaladin, nor has sacrificing way too much of himself. The difficult thing has been fighting against those urges. Dying and especially sacrificing himself wouldn't be a capstone to his arc, it would be a complete reversal of it and contradiction of its themes.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

You can.

Why is his life suddenly more valuable than someone who's arc is sacrifice?

Why can't he make a heroic sacrifice and save the day?

 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Why can't Adolin bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner? Because a big part of his character, and his story arc (especially in RoW) is about feeling useless and insecure in a world filled with gods. He's an incredible soldier who within a year went from being one of the most powerful and important people on the planet, an essential part of every battlefield he fought on, to being outclassed in basically every way by hundreds of people. He's the "normal person" in the group. If he simply gains radiant powers, it would feel cheap. That's not to say that Brandon couldn't write Adolin gaining Radiant powers or Kaladin sacrificing himself well, because I don't doubt that he could. I'm just saying that given the characterization Kaladin has now, his arc is leading towards him surviving, not dying heroically.

 

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Death has never been difficult for Kaladin, nor has sacrificing way too much of himself. The difficult thing has been fighting against those urges. Dying and especially sacrificing himself wouldn't be a capstone to his arc, it would be a complete reversal of it and contradiction of its themes.

What they said

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Why is his life suddenly more valuable than someone who's arc is sacrifice?

His life isn't more valuable, it's the fact that his death would be much less valuable(negative value indact). The deaths of a character whose arc is themed towards sacrifice would be meaningful and emotionally resonant since it tells a very clear story. Kal's heroic sacrifice would make his death and his life mean less. The only use is narrative surprise and twist. But you would effectively kill a lot of emotional investment. It is possible, but Brandon seems like a better writer than that

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What they said

His life isn't more valuable, it's the fact that his death would be much less valuable(negative value indact). The deaths of a character whose arc is themed towards sacrifice would be meaningful and emotionally resonant since it tells a very clear story. Kal's heroic sacrifice would make his death and his life mean less. The only use is narrative surprise and twist. But you would effectively kill a lot of emotional investment. 

Everything in writing is risk/reward.

All has to be looked at as what you lose against what you gain.

What you lose is a character you're almost done with anyway.

What you gain is some real stakes that have been missing since WoK.

20 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

It is possible, but Brandon seems like a better writer than that

It's not possible, Brandon doesn't kill PoV characters.

and it would be better writing to kill him but that's an opinion

[NameIess]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Everything in writing is risk/reward.

All has to be looked at as what you lose against what you gain.

What you lose is a character you're almost done with anyway.

What you gain is some real stakes that have been missing since WoK.

I really doubt that Brandon is almost done with Kaladin. What was the point of setting up his surgeon arc in RoW, if there will be no payoff to it? What's the point of Kaladin realizing that Roshar need a mental healthcare revolution if he's just going to die and nothing happens?

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's not possible, Brandon doesn't kill PoV characters.

and it would be better writing to kill him but that's an opinion

That is demonstrably untrue. Brandon doesn't often kill PoV characters, but he has done so before.

That said, I think we already had this argument.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

I really doubt that Brandon is almost done with Kaladin. What was the point of setting up his surgeon arc in RoW, if there will be no payoff to it? What's the point of Kaladin realizing that Roshar need a mental healthcare revolution if he's just going to die and nothing happens?

Any appearance Kaladin if he lives which he will will be relegated to a about the same type of character Lift and Jasnah are now

Spoiler

Questioner

What is the current plan for the Stormlight Archive *inaudible* what we do *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Oh, that's one of those hard ones.

Questioner

Can you tell us where we - that the Queen's arc, in the question of *inaudible*? Not that I wouldn't read the section on the Herald--

Brandon Sanderson

Nah, that's fine. Nonono, it'll have an arc. The first five are about Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Szeth, and Eshonai in an arc, and then the back five will be about Jasnah, Taln with *inaudible* and stuff like this. So, I mean, some of the same characters from the first five will be characters and still have viewpoints and things, but it's kind of a shift in focus.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That is demonstrably untrue. Brandon doesn't often kill PoV characters, but he has done so before.

That said, I think we already had this argument.

We have

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Any appearance Kaladin if he lives which he will will be relegated to a about the same type of character Lift and Jasnah are now

And that's fine. Why can't characters retire?

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

And that's fine. Why can't characters retire?

So, he's about done. KoW will be he last major appearance.