Is Taravangian Connected to all three Realms?

[Borio Singaldi]

Something occurred to me sometime after I read Rhythm of War. In that mind-blowing scene of Rayse dying and King T becoming the new Odium, the text states that Taravangian felt a disconnect from his body upon realizing he had just died from Szeth's stab wound. Immediately afterward, he kills Rayse and Ascends and we know the rest from there. But how "dead" was he? I ask because in Mistborn: Secret History, we see that when Kelsier Ascended to become Preservation, one of the things that limited him was his lack of a tie to the Physical Realm (you know, from being unalive). Ruin gloats about how he's still superior because he has ties to all three Realms. So that would indicate a Cognitive Shadow/soul of a person becoming a Shard doesn't quite get the whole deal. But doesn't this happen to Taravangian? He died, then after he died, he became Odium. Does this mean his tie was severed and he only has a Connection to the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms? It almost seems like a bit of an oversight on Brandon's part for the sake of making King T's Ascension work the way he wanted it to. Or am I wrong and he immediately used his newfound Odium power to immediately tie his soul to his body again and stay connected in all three Realms. That would make sense, considering how very very recent his death was. So does anyone have a definitive answer on that? Or even a most likely one? Has Brandon answered this already or could it be added to a list of questions to ask him? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on that.

[Honorless]

I noticed that too! But sadly, Taravangian's body still dissolved into Investiture upon his Ascension, so he likely got healed. Given what condition Szeth himself got "healed" from, I do think getting an entire Shard would heal death via stab wound (Szeth stabbed him with a knife, not Nightblood), and the Ascension was near immediately after dying, so his spiritweb likely got reattached.

Quote

Szeth had long since climbed to his feet and sheathed Nightblood. Beside him, the assassin had found a burned-out corpse, mostly eaten by the sword’s attack. That was Rayse, Taravangian’s predecessor, but Szeth wasn’t able to tell. The sword had consumed clothing and most of the flesh, leaving bits of stone-grey bone.
They think that’s me, Taravangian thought, reading the possible futures. Szeth didn’t see what happened to me spiritually. He doesn’t know Odium was here.

 

But... his Cultivation given boon bane split still seemed to exist

Quote

In this new role, Taravangian had two sides. On one was his knowledge: ideas, understandings, truths, lies … Thousands upon thousands of possible futures opened up to him. Millions of potentials. So numerous that even his expanded godly mind was daunted by their variety.
On the other side was his fury. The terrible fury, like an unbridled storm, churned and burned within him. It too was so overwhelming he could barely control it.

Quote

Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!
No. No, free to plan. To devise a way to save the world from itself. He could see so far! See so much! He needed to think.
To burn!
No, to plot!
To … To …

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Honorless

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

But... his Cultivation given boon bane split still seemed to exist

I interpreted that to be referring to the division between T's mind and the Intent of the Shard, but I suppose that explanation works as well.

[+Invocation]

3 hours ago, Chiberty said:

I interpreted that to be referring to the division between T's mind and the Intent of the Shard, but I suppose that explanation works as well.

There is every potential for it to be both. The mechanics of Cultivation's meddling are unclear, especially with that, and especially given that she was apparently grooming him to potentially Ascend to Odium. That split may have been a way to specifically separate T from the Shard's insidious Intent, so there'd always be some part of him separate from just being Odium.
I'm looking forward to seeing how deep it runs still.

[Borio Singaldi]

16 hours ago, Honorless said:

I noticed that too! But sadly, Taravangian's body still dissolved into Investiture upon his Ascension, so he likely got healed. Given what condition Szeth himself got "healed" from, I do think getting an entire Shard would heal death via stab wound (Szeth stabbed him with a knife, not Nightblood), and the Ascension was near immediately after dying, so his spiritweb likely got reattached.

Quote

That makes sense. But is this all confirmed or just the most likely conjecture? Like, should I take this question to Brandon if/when I get the chance or is it safe to assume this is the case?

[+Harrycrapper]

I believe the difference is that Taravangian's mind/body/soul were all present when he was Ascending while Kelsier's body was inaccessible at the time. As we saw with Szeth himself, you can die and be brought back if you're quick enough. 

[Honorless]

11 hours ago, Firerust said:

That makes sense. But is this all confirmed or just the most likely conjecture? Like, should I take this question to Brandon if/when I get the chance or is it safe to assume this is the case?

Not confirmed by Brandon. I don't think you should ask him this though, this is central to the plot, you'll just get a Read And Find Out

[The_Nimanator]

On 02/01/2022 at 10:52 PM, Honorless said:

Given what condition Szeth himself got "healed" from, I do think getting an entire Shard would heal death via stab wound

Didn't Vasher tell Kaladin that Szeth is like him, someone who's shadow was stapled back to the body?

[Kandrafish]

On 1/21/2022 at 7:56 PM, The_Nimanator said:

Didn't Vasher tell Kaladin that Szeth is like him, someone who's shadow was stapled back to the body?

That is a good point. Do we know what the precedent is for a Returned becoming a vessel? 

Also, do we know if Szeth actually killed Taravangian? This was from Taravangian's less intelligent view point. Is it possible that he believed that he was dead, but was actually just very close to death. I don't have the book with me now, but I vaguely remember him saying that he came more fully into the cognitive realm this could indicate whether he actually died or not. 

 

Taravangian may have come further into the cognitive realm after taking what would ultimately be a fatal wound, but so did Wax in The Bands of Mourning when he talks with Harmony.

1) I don't believe that Wax is a cognitive shadow stapled back to his body, but if he is, it is possible that Sazed intervened, which would be similar to what Taravangian could do for himself. 

2) I think it is more likely that Wax was restored by the influx of investiture because he was not fully "cut off at his strings" like Kelsier was. I think that this was similar for Taravangian, but then the investiture flowed in restored his bodily Connection and then "investaporized" the body after connection was restored.

Additionally, I think that Wax is also "dead" when his "already wounded body" is "crushed" by a trap Edwarn activates. In my mind, if Wax is stapled back into his body or Returned or whatever, then so is Taravangian and if he is not stapled or Returned, I would say that I am 99% sure that Taravangian is also not stapled or Returned.

This seems like a more relevant and more applicable case when compared to Szeth who was in the cognitive realm after their his body passed. I would probably put Zahel as being even further from being restored based on how long it took others of his type of invested entity to Return. (i.e. the details of Lightsong's death imply that his return took a significant amount of time)

[The_Nimanator]

1 hour ago, Kandrafish said:

Also, do we know if Szeth actually killed Taravangian? This was from Taravangian's less intelligent view point. Is it possible that he believed that he was dead, but was actually just very close to death. I don't have the book with me now, but I vaguely remember him saying that he came more fully into the cognitive realm this could indicate whether he actually died or not. 

He was noted to feel the snap as he died of his physical body separating from the cognitive and spiritual

 

 

1 hour ago, Kandrafish said:

 I don't believe that Wax is a cognitive shadow stapled back to his body, but if he is, it is possible that Sazed intervened, which would be similar to what Taravangian could do for himself.  

I'm pretty sure it was established by WoB that wax didn't fully die, which is why the bands could heal him

[Kandrafish]

2 minutes ago, The_Nimanator said:

He was noted to feel the snap as he died of his physical body separating from the cognitive and spiritual

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was established by WoB that wax didn't fully die, which is why the bands could heal him

Thanks. I would have checked the book myself if I had it with me.

So Wax did not fully die, but he did leave his body. I suppose Sazed talking to him could be like Odium's visions, which means that this provides not useful information about what is happening to Taravangian, but I feel like there is a similarity between Wax "letting go" and Taravangian feeling a snap.

Taravangian felt a snap, but his body did get investaporized... Maybe my stubborn believe that Taravangian should still have the full powers of a shard based on Wax being alright, is because Wax took a lot of very bad wounds and got literally crushed. Meanwhile, Taravangian gets stabbed once.

I suppose I'll read closer when I have the book with me. 

[Eternal Khol]

9 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

2) I think it is more likely that Wax was restored by the influx of investiture because he was not fully "cut off at his strings" like Kelsier was. I think that this was similar for Taravangian, but then the investiture flowed in restored his bodily Connection and then "investaporized" the body after connection was restored

yeah thats pretty much what happened. The Taravangian part we cant only speculate on but i agree with what you said and the evidence seem to support it.

Theres a couple good WoB  that puts good context in to how it works and we can infer some stuff.

 

Brandon has stated that if, in that moment while he was talking to Harmony while "dead", Wax couldve been infused with Investiture and made a Cognitive Shadow.

But instead, Sazed heals his body and brings him back.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/451/#e14473

Just like in the real world, in the Cosmere, when people die they can do CPR or use regular medicine(since its the Cosmere that includes magical methods) to bring them back to life(in those 7 minutes or so that their body still has oxygen). If brought back fast enough they wont be a Shadow.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260/#e8758

Edited January 30, 2022 by Eternal Khol
Typo

[apepi]

My thought is Tara died, but even though you die, you don't necessarily lose your connect to the physical realm, until they go into the beyond(or maybe slowly lose it).

 

Like, cognitive shadows fill their spirit web with investiture to fill in what was lost, Tara didn't have to do that because he had just died.

 

Maybe in the future we may learn that he is having problems because his connection to the physical realm, but that remains to be seen.