Kaladin's 5th Ideal

[+En-priestess]

On my last re-read of WoK I noticed that the Alethi war codes that Dalinar adheres to are very Windrunner-like, and it turns out that they date back to the time of the Radiants. We know that Windrunners were most often from Alethkar, so it makes sense that their war codes were culturally influenced by the Windrunner ideals. But then I got thinking, what if the codes themselves were actually authored by a Windrunner? And if so, what if that was in fact their 5th ideal? I think this would make sense for the progression of the ideals, as we've seen through Kaladin's struggle with the idea that he cannot protect everyone. If he can't protect everyone, but the Windrunners are focused on protecting and leading, then perhaps the final progression of this would be to leave behind some kind of work that could have a greater impact, to lead by example and empower others to protect! If this were the case, it would make a lot of sense why very few Radiants reach this 5th ideal, as it is something that can only be done after much experience and growth through the other ideals. 

I think it makes sense for Kaladin's arc too. So far his protection has been focussed quite narrowly - protecting Tien, protecting his squad, bridge four, etc. He has sworn to protect those who cannot protect themselves, even those he hates so long as it is right, and that there are those he cannot protect. To be able to carry out these oaths to the greatest effect, he really needs to empower others to uphold these same ideals - not to put all of the responsibility on himself. Not only this, but his arc shows that Windrunners don't necessarily have to remain in combat forever; that he can protect in other ways too (e.g. his support work with people suffering from mental illness in RoW). 

So I can imagine Kaladin's 5th ideal being to write a book or start some kind of clinic focussed on mental health and reforming the current treatment of those suffering from mental illnesses. In this way, he is protecting people on such a bigger scale than he ever could fighting alone, empowering others to learn and develop whole new understandings and treatments regarding mental health that would continue to protect people well into the future. 

I could imagine something similar being the case for the other Knights Radiant orders too. For Lightweavers, perhaps their 5th ideal being some kind of art piece that captures something important about the self to preserve that knowledge for future generations - be it a painting, a play, song, poem, etc. I think we currently only know the 5th ideal for the Skybreakers - they "become the law" - which fits with this broader idea as I suppose this could involve actually writing their own legal code to inspire legal reform and advocate justice on a wider scale. Perhaps the in-world Way of Kings is an example of this too, potentially being Nohadon's fifth Bondsmith ideal as it inspires unity across societies and class, and is a legacy of honor to be drawn upon by future generations? 

Personally, I feel that the 5th ideal really has to be about having a greater impact/leaving a legacy in the realm of what the Radiant's previous oaths are themed towards - be it protection, freedom, truth, justice, responsibility, unity, etc. Anyway, these are my rambling thoughts. Thank you for reading and do let me know what you think

Edited December 30, 2021 by En-priestess

[Legui01010]

I like the idea, but I cannot completely agree with it. While the Alethi War Codes are reminiscent of the Windrunners, they might not necessarily be their 5th Ideal, perhaps just their self sacrifice and desire to protect inspire the Alethi to take it as a basis for their War Codes. But the Ideals, they are unique (at least for me) for every single individual, for they encompass the personality of the Radiant and the struggle they go through to achieve said Ideal.

Kaladin is special, for he is the embodiment of Honor (even called Child of Tanavast by the Stormfather, a title reserved only to Kaladin), to levels that are just not normal. The rest of the Orders, their last Ideals might be "easy" to decipher, but the Windrunners really throw me off: it is already stated, through the 2nd to 4th Ideal that they will protect those who need it, regardless of their personal relationship with said individual that they are protecting; so the 5th Ideal to them, it would be weird that it would try to encompass the idea of protecting others even more, or at the very least, very extremist. So in my opinion there 2 possibilities: one is the idea of committing the ultimate sacrifice to protect (again, not to my liking, and rather odd, for it would go against the the 1st Ideal, Life before Death); and the 2nd option would be to Protect Oneself. Let me explain myself here: Kaladin was once captured by a group of Singers (during the first parts of Oathbringer if I'm not mistaken), what would've happened if those Singers, who weren't in the condition to protect themselves, decided to kill Kaladin right there? Would he have defended himself? With the possibility of harming or killing another who is defenseless? Time and time again Kaladin has given his everything, his life on occasion but he survived. After the events of RoW, and accepting that he cannot protect everyone (removing the possibility of an almighty Protector) Kaladin realized that there was much for him to heal, to care for himself.

The Ideals mark (for Lightweavers and Windrunners at least) the process of healing themselves, in relation to what each Radiant embodies. For Shallan it was about accepting the truth instead of falling to the lies that almost shattered her completely. Kaladin said to Lirin, "Radiants break to, but then we fill the gaps with something stronger.". All Radiants, without exception are "broken", and the swearing of Ideals, the Journey which they walk, lead to their ultimate healing and fixing of themselves, and it's different for each Radiant. For Shallan is accepting her past and the horrible things she'd done, for Lift is going beyond her selfishness, Venli her cowardice and hunger for power, Dalinar his desire for domination and running from his guilt, and Kaladin his excessive selflessness and undermining of himself. 

Again, this is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree completely and correct me if you think I'm mistaken. 

[+En-priestess]

1 hour ago, Legui01010 said:

I like the idea, but I cannot completely agree with it. While the Alethi War Codes are reminiscent of the Windrunners, they might not necessarily be their 5th Ideal, perhaps just their self sacrifice and desire to protect inspire the Alethi to take it as a basis for their War Codes. But the Ideals, they are unique (at least for me) for every single individual, for they encompass the personality of the Radiant and the struggle they go through to achieve said Ideal.

I think you might be misunderstanding me a bit. I don't think that the Alethi war codes are the 5th Windrunner ideal. I think they could have been one Windrunner's 5th ideal in the past. Their personal legacy to inspire protection and leadership in society since they have sworn to protect, yet also understood that they personally cannot protect everyone. This would be a way to continue to protect, yet also empower others to be part of that protecting and not forcing all of the responsibility on oneself. In that way, the fifth ideal would be a Radiant's personal embodiment of the ideals in some form that could be used by society more broadly and have the greatest impact. I completely agree that the ideals are unique to each individual, as we have seen in the books many times now, so my idea was that Kaladin's 5th ideal would also be something of a legacy for protection in the vein of his own personal struggle - something like a book or clinic that aims to improve support for people experiencing mental illness like he was starting to do in RoW.

[Blackwarder]

I like the basic idea behind this, I don’t think that writing a book is part of it though.

 

“I will protect those who can not protect themselves” - 2nd Windrunner ideal.

”I will protect even those who I hate as long as it’s right” - 3rd Windrunner ideal (Kaladin version)

”I except that I cannot protect everyone“ - 4th Windrunner ideal.

“I will show others how to protect themselves” - possible 5th Windrunner ideal.

Which is something Kaladin have been doing all on his own already. And in this context the Alethi war codes could be a remnant of some 5th ideal Windrunner/s.

Damn, I just realized that it’s also “A Wisdom of Lirin” like the rest of the oaths:

Quote

“And his father’s voice seemed to whisper a reply. Somebody has to start, son. Somebody has to step forward and do what is right, because it is right. If nobody starts, then others cannot follow.”

Excerpt From
The Way of Kings
Brandon Sanderson

I think we are on to something here.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Blackwarder

[Legui01010]

3 hours ago, En-priestess said:

I think you might be misunderstanding me a bit. I don't think that the Alethi war codes are the 5th Windrunner ideal. I think they could have been one Windrunner's 5th ideal in the past.

My bad there, but now I see your point, which makes a great deal of sense.

41 minutes ago, Blackwarder said:

“I will show others how to protect themselves” - possible 5th Windrunner ideal.

This might actually be it. I forgot that the Windrunners also represent Leadership. My proposal of Ideal might even be a little selfish, considering that each Radiant's journey is one of improvement and self care, but this one is really possible and makes a whole lot of sense, specially if you part from the 4th Ideal, acceptance that you cannot protect everyone, so how do you improve upon it? What is the next step? What better way to show leadership and improvement than showing others to protect themselves.

[Blackwarder]

8 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

 

This might actually be it. I forgot that the Windrunners also represent Leadership. My proposal of Ideal might even be a little selfish, considering that each Radiant's journey is one of improvement and self care, but this one is really possible and makes a whole lot of sense, specially if you part from the 4th Ideal, acceptance that you cannot protect everyone, so how do you improve upon it? What is the next step? What better way to show leadership and improvement than showing others to protect themselves.

Exactly, ive been trying to reconcile Windrunners Leadership trait with their oaths for years now, and I admit that the 4th ideal threw me off a bit, but En-priestess point about the Alethi warcodes being related to Windrunner just made it all klick.

I’m not thrilled with the actual wording though, need a bit of work.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Blackwarder
Adonalsium damned autocorrect

[Legui01010]

1 minute ago, Blackwarder said:

I’m not thrilled with the actual wording though, need a bit of work.

Of course, but the "soul" of the Ideal remains the same. For each Radiant the wording is different, unique in their way but the meaning behind it stays true to the way you showed it.

[bungus]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:38 PM, Legui01010 said:

I like the idea, but I cannot completely agree with it. While the Alethi War Codes are reminiscent of the Windrunners, they might not necessarily be their 5th Ideal, perhaps just their self sacrifice and desire to protect inspire the Alethi to take it as a basis for their War Codes. But the Ideals, they are unique (at least for me) for every single individual, for they encompass the personality of the Radiant and the struggle they go through to achieve said Ideal.

Kaladin is special, for he is the embodiment of Honor (even called Child of Tanavast by the Stormfather, a title reserved only to Kaladin), to levels that are just not normal. The rest of the Orders, their last Ideals might be "easy" to decipher, but the Windrunners really throw me off: it is already stated, through the 2nd to 4th Ideal that they will protect those who need it, regardless of their personal relationship with said individual that they are protecting; so the 5th Ideal to them, it would be weird that it would try to encompass the idea of protecting others even more, or at the very least, very extremist. So in my opinion there 2 possibilities: one is the idea of committing the ultimate sacrifice to protect (again, not to my liking, and rather odd, for it would go against the the 1st Ideal, Life before Death); and the 2nd option would be to Protect Oneself. Let me explain myself here: Kaladin was once captured by a group of Singers (during the first parts of Oathbringer if I'm not mistaken), what would've happened if those Singers, who weren't in the condition to protect themselves, decided to kill Kaladin right there? Would he have defended himself? With the possibility of harming or killing another who is defenseless? Time and time again Kaladin has given his everything, his life on occasion but he survived. After the events of RoW, and accepting that he cannot protect everyone (removing the possibility of an almighty Protector) Kaladin realized that there was much for him to heal, to care for himself.

The Ideals mark (for Lightweavers and Windrunners at least) the process of healing themselves, in relation to what each Radiant embodies. For Shallan it was about accepting the truth instead of falling to the lies that almost shattered her completely. Kaladin said to Lirin, "Radiants break to, but then we fill the gaps with something stronger.". All Radiants, without exception are "broken", and the swearing of Ideals, the Journey which they walk, lead to their ultimate healing and fixing of themselves, and it's different for each Radiant. For Shallan is accepting her past and the horrible things she'd done, for Lift is going beyond her selfishness, Venli her cowardice and hunger for power, Dalinar his desire for domination and running from his guilt, and Kaladin his excessive selflessness and undermining of himself. 

Again, this is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree completely and correct me if you think I'm mistaken. 

Dalinar was referred to as Son of Tanavast, by the stormfather. 

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, bungus said:

Dalinar was referred to as Son of Tanavast, by the stormfather. 

Taravangian

The only one the Stormfather refers to as THE son of Tanavast is Kaladin

[bungus]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian

The only one the Stormfather refers to as THE son of Tanavast is Kaladin

I'll see if I can find that quote again, but you might be right. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, bungus said:

I'll see if I can find that quote again, but you might be right. 

"'Spoken like a true son of Tanavast," Taravangian said, clapsing his hands." -Rhythm of War page 775

[LifeBeforeDeath]

On 12/30/2021 at 1:38 AM, Legui01010 said:

I like the idea, but I cannot completely agree with it. While the Alethi War Codes are reminiscent of the Windrunners, they might not necessarily be their 5th Ideal, perhaps just their self sacrifice and desire to protect inspire the Alethi to take it as a basis for their War Codes. But the Ideals, they are unique (at least for me) for every single individual, for they encompass the personality of the Radiant and the struggle they go through to achieve said Ideal.

Kaladin is special, for he is the embodiment of Honor (even called Child of Tanavast by the Stormfather, a title reserved only to Kaladin), to levels that are just not normal. The rest of the Orders, their last Ideals might be "easy" to decipher, but the Windrunners really throw me off: it is already stated, through the 2nd to 4th Ideal that they will protect those who need it, regardless of their personal relationship with said individual that they are protecting; so the 5th Ideal to them, it would be weird that it would try to encompass the idea of protecting others even more, or at the very least, very extremist. So in my opinion there 2 possibilities: one is the idea of committing the ultimate sacrifice to protect (again, not to my liking, and rather odd, for it would go against the the 1st Ideal, Life before Death); and the 2nd option would be to Protect Oneself. Let me explain myself here: Kaladin was once captured by a group of Singers (during the first parts of Oathbringer if I'm not mistaken), what would've happened if those Singers, who weren't in the condition to protect themselves, decided to kill Kaladin right there? Would he have defended himself? With the possibility of harming or killing another who is defenseless? Time and time again Kaladin has given his everything, his life on occasion but he survived. After the events of RoW, and accepting that he cannot protect everyone (removing the possibility of an almighty Protector) Kaladin realized that there was much for him to heal, to care for himself.

The Ideals mark (for Lightweavers and Windrunners at least) the process of healing themselves, in relation to what each Radiant embodies. For Shallan it was about accepting the truth instead of falling to the lies that almost shattered her completely. Kaladin said to Lirin, "Radiants break to, but then we fill the gaps with something stronger.". All Radiants, without exception are "broken", and the swearing of Ideals, the Journey which they walk, lead to their ultimate healing and fixing of themselves, and it's different for each Radiant. For Shallan is accepting her past and the horrible things she'd done, for Lift is going beyond her selfishness, Venli her cowardice and hunger for power, Dalinar his desire for domination and running from his guilt, and Kaladin his excessive selflessness and undermining of himself. 

Again, this is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree completely and correct me if you think I'm mistaken. 

I have nothing to add.. Just wanted to say I love the idea