More than three Bondsmiths?

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Which is why none of the Unmade can form Bondsmiths

Historically, yeah.

But with Sja-anat no longer working for Odium...

Also, are the Unmade actually Odium's spren (i.e. Splinters of Odium) or are they native Rosharan spren (either of Adonalsium or Honor/Cultivation) corrupted or Unmade by Odium?

If the latter is true, it might not be any more of a problem than bonding an Enlightened/corrupted spren like Glys.

If they are actually Odium's Investiture, it might take Bondsmith shenanigans to make work, or might be possible now that Odium's tone is one of Roshar's pure tones.

...Hmm, if Odium is actually invested in Roshar now, does that mean potentially 7 Bondsmith spren?

Honor = Stormfather

Cultivation = Nightwatcher

Honor+Cultivation = Sibling

Odium =  ? (Ba-ado-Mishram???)

Honor+Odium = ?

Cultivation + Odium = ?

Honor+Cultivation+Odium =? (Sja-anat maybe?)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Historically, yeah.

But with Sja-anat no longer working for Odium...

Shouldn't change anything.

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Also, are the Unmade actually Odium's spren (i.e. Splinters of Odium) or are they native Rosharan spren (either of Adonalsium or Honor/Cultivation) corrupted or Unmade by Odium?

They were something before becoming Unmade, we know that much.

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

If the latter is true, it might not be any more of a problem than bonding an Enlightened/corrupted spren like Glys.

Still wouldn't make their bondmate a Bondsmith.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Shouldn't change anything.

They were something before becoming Unmade, we know that much.

Still wouldn't make their bondmate a Bondsmith.

I don't think we know enough about what makes a spren a Bondsmith spren to say that.

What do the Stormfather, the Sibling, and the Nightwatcher share with each other that they don't share with Cusicesh?

There's a WoB that it's more than just quantity of Investiture, but what? It seems the KR orders were mostly set up by the spren and humans themselves, not the Shards, so I don't think it was Honor's decision.

Ishar was involved in creating the KR Orders, so maybe he used the Bondsmith Honorblade to create the right Connections, in which case Sja-anat couldn't do it on her own, but Navani or Dalinar to set it up.

Maybe it's kind of just a natural result of those Shards being Invested in the world and those spren being their 'representatives', in which case Odium becoming Invested in Roshar might have opened up new Bondsmith Spren "jobs" that no appropriate spren has tried to fill yet. But the Unmade might not fit, if they are just corrupted "native " spren vs Odium or Odium + Honor and/or Cultivation spren.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think we know enough about what makes a spren a Bondsmith spren to say that.

Considering Brandon himself says that therre is no Bondsmith equivelent among the Unmade I think we can.

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

What do the Stormfather, the Sibling, and the Nightwatcher share with each other that they don't share with Cusicesh?

An affinity with a specific Shard in the same way as Shard metals

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ishar was involved in creating the KR Orders, so maybe he used the Bondsmith Honorblade to create the right Connections, in which case Sja-anat couldn't do it on her own, but Navani or Dalinar to set it up.

Considering Ishar was also caught off guard, and had severly limited powers at the time I highly doubt that.

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Maybe it's kind of just a natural result of those Shards being Invested in the world and those spren being their 'representatives', in which case Odium becoming Invested in Roshar might have opened up new Bondsmith Spren "jobs" that no appropriate spren has tried to fill yet. But the Unmade might not fit, if they are just corrupted "native " spren vs Odium or Odium + Honor and/or Cultivation spren.

Even so Odium did not make a Bondsmith equivelent in the Unmade.

[cometaryorbit]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering Brandon himself says that therre is no Bondsmith equivelent among the Unmade I think we can.

There *is* no Bondsmith equivalent, absolutely.

That doesn't mean there *won't* be in the future.

And anyway, if Sja-anat bonded a Bondsmith I am not sure she would really be considered one of the Unmade any longer. (Remade???)

(Also, I think that WoB is actually talking about a less direct and more symbolic correspondence between the nine Unmade and the nine non-Bondsmith orders or nine non-Adhesion Surges-- it does say the correspondence is "not as one to one").

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:48 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think we know enough about what makes a spren a Bondsmith spren to say that.

What do the Stormfather, the Sibling, and the Nightwatcher share with each other that they don't share with Cusicesh?

There's a WoB that it's more than just quantity of Investiture, but what? It seems the KR orders were mostly set up by the spren and humans themselves, not the Shards, so I don't think it was Honor's decision.

Ishar was involved in creating the KR Orders, so maybe he used the Bondsmith Honorblade to create the right Connections, in which case Sja-anat couldn't do it on her own, but Navani or Dalinar to set it up.

Maybe it's kind of just a natural result of those Shards being Invested in the world and those spren being their 'representatives', in which case Odium becoming Invested in Roshar might have opened up new Bondsmith Spren "jobs" that no appropriate spren has tried to fill yet. But the Unmade might not fit, if they are just corrupted "native " spren vs Odium or Odium + Honor and/or Cultivation spren.

From what Khriss says in AU and Brandon says in WoBs, it sounds like a Radiant spren is a Radiant spren because it embodies the Surges it grants (and several also seem tied to the Essence of the order). So in the case of the Bondsmith spren, they are presumably Bondsmith spren because they are direct personifications of the Surges of Adhesion and Tension, and perhaps the Essence of Sinew (a metaphorical way of saying "the things that hold the world together" or something like that?), not necessarily just because of Investiture or a Shardic association.

(Worth noting also that the intelligent spren had to be created by the Shards, even if Surgebinding wasn't an expected outcome, so that may also play a role.)

[Honorless]

On 1/11/2022 at 2:30 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

From what Khriss says in AU and Brandon says in WoBs, it sounds like a Radiant spren is a Radiant spren because it embodies the Surges it grants (and several also seem tied to the Essence of the order). So in the case of the Bondsmith spren, they are presumably Bondsmith spren because they are direct personifications of the Surges of Adhesion and Tension, and perhaps the Essence of Sinew (a metaphorical way of saying "the things that hold the world together" or something like that?), not necessarily just because of Investiture or a Shardic association.

(Worth noting also that the intelligent spren had to be created by the Shards, even if Surgebinding wasn't an expected outcome, so that may also play a role.)

Ooh, that makes Ba-Ado-Mishram even more likely to be Bondsmith capable, she did seem to be integral to Roshar from what Kalak said!

[DiePie]

I would like to bring up another point of contention: Do we know for certain that Bondsmiths' powers have to be in terms of Spiritual Connection like Dalinar's are? It seems more than likely that they have to use the powers of Adhesion and Cohesion, but there is no reason why they couldn't be expressed differently. I see no reason that a Spren created by Cultivation to represent her would grant Honor's whole thing (that of bonds) to a bonded person than a similar Spren of Odium. In that way someone bonded to one of the unmade may have access to those powers (or perhaps just adhesion, staying in line with the rest of the fused only having one surge instead of the Radiant's precedent), but they would be expressed in a different way.

 

However it seems much more likely that most of the Unmade have the power to become a Bondsmith Spren, but aren't built in a way that would allow them to grant the two requisite surges. In the same way that your home computer can't fly a plane, despite most likely having the needed processing power, storage etc. It would need to be outfitted with additional controls, meters, and programming to be used in such a way.

I think that Dalinar could probably turn the Unmade into Bondsmith Spren if he knew what he was doing, but that bonding one of the unmade wouldn't give you access to the surges of Adhesion and Cohesion, or even a Nahel bond at all.

[Truthwatcher94]

As with all the Orders, including the Bondsmiths and the “enlightened” Truthwatchers, all of them are still bound by oaths, right? I think, it’s just that simple, people. Spren that can bind people with oaths and ideals, together they can be Radiant. I can’t recall anything as of this writing as to Sja-anat accepting oaths just like the Stormfather and the Sibling. We can assume that this is how the Nightwatcher operates, as well. As for Sja-anat, with her limited scenes, I can only remember her corrupting or giving enlightenment to other spren. Although, this might make her rather superior to others of her kind, she hasn’t bonded with anyone or, at least, implied that she can, IIRC. 

Assuming the Unmade are once of Honor/Cultivation, then unmade by Odium, then maybe, there are still parts with H/C in them, which makes them hybrid spren. But does that make them Bondsmith-spren/godspren material? I don’t think so. 

Bondsmith is the only Radiant Order with no equivalent group from the Fused. I believe there was a WoB about this, and this has a lot to do with the surge of Adhesion, which is believed to be purely of Honor and their obsession with Connection. Also, what abilities will the Fused’s Bondsmith have? Each type has only one ability and Adhesion is viewed with prejudice. So, I just strongly disagree that there would be a Bondsmith from Odium’s side. I would rather entertain the idea of a hybrid Bondsmith like the Sibling with Honor-Odium or Cultivation-Odium combos. At least, with this, if there ever is a possible spren, then it would still be bound by oaths. If the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher might have “mingled” with one of the Unmade, produced an offspring like the Sibling, then maybe. 

Sja-anat will definitely play an important role in the future, though. If your theory was “maybe Sja-anat is an offspring of Honor/Cultivation and an Unmade or some other Odium spren”, then maybe she can be a Bondsmith spren. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Truthwatcher94

[CryoZenith]

I think that if any Unmade were to be modified to be bondsmith-able, it would have to be BAM (if any). BAM just conceptually relates to Connection so much more than Sja-Anat that it would feel narratively counterintuitive to me for Sja-Anat to get that role.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, DiePie said:

I see no reason that a Spren created by Cultivation to represent her would grant Honor's whole thing (that of bonds) to a bonded person

I mean, they're Bondsmiths, I'd be shocked if the NW Bondsmith doesn't, well, smith bonds.

On 1/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, DiePie said:

However it seems much more likely that most of the Unmade have the power to become a Bondsmith Spren, but aren't built in a way that would allow them to grant the two requisite surges. In the same way that your home computer can't fly a plane, despite most likely having the needed processing power, storage etc. It would need to be outfitted with additional controls, meters, and programming to be used in such a way.

Agreed.

On 1/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, DiePie said:

I think that Dalinar could probably turn the Unmade into Bondsmith Spren if he knew what he was doing

I'm not as sure on this, depends on what exactly defines what a spren is the spren of. Possible, though, especially with Dalinar's whole "remnants of the Shard of Honor" stuff going on.

On 1/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, DiePie said:

but that bonding one of the unmade wouldn't give you access to the surges of Adhesion and Cohesion

Definitely agreed. (Side note, Bondsmiths get Tension, not Cohesion, but even Brandon made that mistake in Oathbringer and needed to fix it in later editions after the book was published, so understandable mixup )

On 1/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, DiePie said:

or even a Nahel bond at all

Assuming you mean it in the sense of Radiant bond specifically (since Brandon uses it incredibly inconsistently lmao), yeah I doubt it would be the same thing.

40 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I think that if any Unmade were to be modified to be bondsmith-able, it would have to be BAM (if any). BAM just conceptually relates to Connection so much more than Sja-Anat that it would feel narratively counterintuitive to me for Sja-Anat to get that role.

Agreed, Sja-anat doesn't strike me as terribly Bondsmith-y or Connection-y.