WhiteEmporer

More than three Bondsmiths?

32 posts in this topic

So I just recently finished RoW (I know, super late), and have been listening to my backlog of un-listened Shardcast episodes. In one (I think it was "lights") the possibility of Sja-anat forming a Bondsmith bond with someone was discussed, which got me thinking:
We know that in the current system the Radiants  are really all about Honor and Cultivation, so the three Bondsmiths bond (respectively) a spren for Honor (Stormfather), a spren for Cultivation (Nightwatcher) and a hybrid between the two (Sibling). But Radiants like Renarin seem to show that there are other ways of doing things beyond the system. Is it possible for other representative spren to for bonds for bondsmiths? Could Sja-anat, an Odium corrupted spren previously of Honor, become a hybrid bondsmith spren like the Sibling, but for the new Honor/Odium light? Could a spren of Odium bond a bondsmith specializing in Voidlight?

Of course this hasn't happened before because anything connected with Odium was connected with an enemy. But one of the themes I picked up in RoW is that things aren't as simple on Roshar as good guys and bad guys. Also that the situation with shards can change very quickly.

I can theoretically see (probably in the back 5) a new situation where Odium's investiture is used for good, and "odious" bondsmiths join the ranks. Or, alternatively, if another faction like Odium or Sja-anat forms a Bondsmith to rival those of the Radiants. They don't all have to be on the same team (I'm looking at you, you dirty Skybreakers).

Whadda you guys think?

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If there's any candidate for a Voidlight Bondsmith spren, it would be Ba-Ado-Mishram, right? I mean, the False Desolation was basically that, on the side of the Singers.

I also agree that there's potential for Sja-Anat to be the Warlight bondsmith's spren.

We also can't forget Ishar's Honorblade, though. That one's a real wildcard.

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8 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

If there's any candidate for a Voidlight Bondsmith spren, it would be Ba-Ado-Mishram, right? I mean, the False Desolation was basically that, on the side of the Singers.

I also agree that there's potential for Sja-Anat to be the Warlight bondsmith's spren.

We also can't forget Ishar's Honorblade, though. That one's a real wildcard.

I hadn't even factored the honorblade in. I guess I sort of figured it would make him work like the Stormfather's bondsmith, but maybe it's more versatile.

By the way, for any who aren't sure what we're talking about with the lights: In the "Lights" Shardcast episode, they theorized that each Bondsmith can produce the Light associated with their spren (Like Navani makes Towerlight). So theoretically, A Sja-Anat Bondsmith could make Warlight--unless Sja-Anat is more of Cultivation than Honor. In that case, it would be whatever that hybrid light is called.

Also wondering if it's possible at the moment to have a bondsmith connected with Odium. It seems like the Bondsmiths are the most honor-connected, and Honor and Odium seem rather opposed at the moment. But perhaps with a new Odium things will be different.

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Given that Sja-anat is now working against Odium, a Bondsmith of hers seems possible. Maybe an altered version of a Bondsmith like how Renarin is an altered Truthwatcher?

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1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Given that Sja-anat is now working against Odium, a Bondsmith of hers seems possible. Maybe an altered version of a Bondsmith like how Renarin is an altered Truthwatcher?

I like to call Renarin's style of Truthwatcher "Fatewatchers" as a distinguishing term, so... "Bondshift" sounds like a clever way to sum up what I could see Sja-Anat granting to a Radiant bond-mate.

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40 minutes ago, WhiteEmporer said:

So theoretically, A Sja-Anat Bondsmith could make Warlight--unless Sja-Anat is more of Cultivation than Honor. In that case, it would be whatever that hybrid light is called.

I like to call it Rebellionlight because of Venli's association of defiance and freedom with it

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Also wondering if it's possible at the moment to have a bondsmith connected with Odium. It seems like the Bondsmiths are the most honor-connected, and Honor and Odium seem rather opposed at the moment. But perhaps with a new Odium things will be different.

I do suspect that we might, after all it's about time that the Voidbinding chart started to become more meaningful.

 

There are WoBs that one could bond with the Unmade

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Questioner

Can the Unmade be bonded?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, plausible... Yes, or possible, I should say.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)
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Questioner

Someone asked you last year if the Unmade could be bonded and you said technically yes. Have we seen any evidence of this, or will we?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh, you-- Eh-- Not yet, no. It doesn't really happen. Technically it could but it just doesn't really happen.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

The Unmade do seem to be on about the same level of power as the Bondsmith spren, but Cusicesh is said to be almost on the same level too, and that there's something more than just power needed to become a Bondsmith spren

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Jurble

Are Bondsmith spren created as a matter of intent by Shards or are they 'natural' insofar as any spren made of enough Investiture would create a Bondsmith bond? That is, for example, the Everstorm is clearly a giant mass of Odium's Investiture, if someone were to bond its spren (which is presumably very young and insensate currently), would it form a Bondsmith bond as a matter of (super)natural laws or would Odium have to tweak something on a metaphysical level to allow a Bondsmith bond to form?

Brandon Sanderson

It wouldn't naturally become a Bondsmith spren, as it's not JUST the amount of Investiture that makes one. (For example, there's that odd spren in Iri that has a ton of Investiture, but didn't become a Radiant spren.) To become a Radiant spren requires some different things.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 28, 2020)

 

All of the Unmade may not be Bond-able in this manner. Nergaoul / the Thrill's effect technically is a weak bond, I think, given the Sadeas army possession thingy that happened at Thaylen City, that a Fused compared to Singer bonds and according to Odium was possible because of intense emotions, iirc. Yelig-Nar's bond also enables possession and taking over, kinda like a Fused's bond with Singer but slower acting, and it apparently grants quite a few more Surges.

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I would like to contest the idea that the Unmade could form bondsmiths

Spoiler

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

They might have unique abilities, and from bonds, but they won't be a Bondsmith

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58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They might have unique abilities, and from bonds, but they won't be a Bondsmith

I'd be inclined to agree that you can't have a bondsmith for just any unmade. The spren for Bondsmiths are aligned in a special way (which I don't fully understand) with a shard or with a joining of two shards. I don't think all of the unmade are like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher in this respect. 

I think Sja-Anat could possibly attain this position as a dual Honor/Odium spren. It's also possible there could be a spren who is to Odium what the Stormfather is to Honor, in which case that spren could form a Bondsmith bond. 

A relevant point: it seemed from Navani's research in RoW that Odium may have at some point BECOME one of the "gods" of Roshar. I suppose before he was merely a visitor. But right now his tone IS one of the three "pure tones of Roshar ". So potentially some of these possibilities we're discussing weren't feasible until Odium was sufficiently invested in the planet. It seems like he is now, though, so I'd be on the lookout for it, especially once we get to the back 5.

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

They might have unique abilities, and from bonds, but they won't be a Bondsmith

The problem is that there's no hard and fast definition for what makes a spren a "Bondsmith" spren. We've been told that there can only be three Bondsmiths - Nightwatcher (presumably), Stormfather, Sibling - but those three aren't exactly the same type of spren, like where all Windrunners bond honorspren. It could be that it has to do with some sort of selection by a Shard, since all three of these have some sort of unique, powerful position. IF anything, I'd bet that Sja-anat would be considered an Odium-selected spren, and would therefore be a Bondsmith of Odium.

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Aurimus

Firstly, is there a general name for all the Bondsmith spren? Along the lines of the word "honorspren" for all the Windrunner spren.

Brandon Sanderson

In world, they're just called Bondsmith Spren. But godspren isn't terrible for discussions, as it does relate a little to things like the god metals.

This also implies that it might be directly connected to individual shards.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Historically there have never been more than 3 Bondsmiths. At one time

"HIstorically" is important here, since it implies there could be more. Not super related to my point, just relevant to the topic.

Edited by MGershone
addendum
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3 hours ago, MGershone said:

The problem is that there's no hard and fast definition for what makes a spren a "Bondsmith" spren. We've been told that there can only be three Bondsmiths - Nightwatcher (presumably), Stormfather, Sibling - but those three aren't exactly the same type of spren, like where all Windrunners bond honorspren. It could be that it has to do with some sort of selection by a Shard, since all three of these have some sort of unique, powerful position. IF anything, I'd bet that Sja-anat would be considered an Odium-selected spren, and would therefore be a Bondsmith of Odium.

Seons are spren, and can be bonded but will not make a surgebinder.

Unmade are large spren and can be bonded but will not make a Bondsmith.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Seons are spren, and can be bonded but will not make a surgebinder.

Unmade are large spren and can be bonded but will not make a Bondsmith.

Good point

...

Was this just a point about how the definitions of types of spren are unclear or am I missing something?

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Just now, MGershone said:

Good point

...

Was this just a point about how the definitions of types of spren are unclear or am I missing something?

I'm saying that while an unmade can bond somone, and while that person might get intesting powers, I do not believe that those powers will be that of a bondsmith.

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Just now, Frustration said:

I'm saying that while an unmade can bond somone, and while that person might get intesting powers, I do not believe that those powers will be that of a bondsmith.

Got it. I'm just saying that maybe (as you're saying) a normal unmade won't grant Bondsmith abilities, perhaps there's some thing that a SHard can add in to make it a Bondsmith spren, and since Sja-anat has been Odium's lieutenant kinda, she might fall into that category.

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Just now, MGershone said:

Got it. I'm just saying that maybe (as you're saying) a normal unmade won't grant Bondsmith abilities, perhaps there's some thing that a SHard can add in to make it a Bondsmith spren, and since Sja-anat has been Odium's lieutenant kinda, she might fall into that category.

While I won't say that's impossible, Why Sja-anat?

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

While I won't say that's impossible, Why Sja-anat?

um.....

Because people were talking about her? I can't really think of another spren who'd fit the bill. To that point, Ba-Ado-Mishram might if Odium imbued her with some power during the desolations which then allowed her to Bondsmith her way into bonding Parshendi.

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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

While I won't say that's impossible, Why Sja-anat?

Well, she's the only Unmade who switched sides.

Though now that some Radiants are fighting on the other side, I suppose another Unmade could be involved.

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Just now, cometaryorbit said:

Well, she's the only Unmade who switched sides.

And so she's the closest to gaining the neccesary investiture?

Not BAM who already held the favor of Odium, and could produce light?

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Just now, Frustration said:

And so she's the closest to gaining the neccesary investiture?

Not BAM who already held the favor of Odium, and could produce light?

I actually just meant she might be the only Unmade who would want to have a Bondsmith. Bondsmith-ing isn't really Odium's thing.

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Just now, cometaryorbit said:

I actually just meant she might be the only Unmade who would want to have a Bondsmith. Bondsmith-ing isn't really Odium's thing.

Which is why none of the Unmade can form Bondsmiths

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48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

While I won't say that's impossible, Why Sja-anat?

"It is noted that Sja-anat wants to be a god in her own right" from the coppermind wiki, and with a reference to the Sja-Anat viewpoint interlude from Rhythm of War. I don't remember the actual content  of the statement in that interlude, but heard the idea referenced in the Shardcast as well, which I think it why they postulated the idea of Sja-Anat bondsmith. 

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9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I would like to contest the idea that the Unmade could form bondsmiths

  Hide contents

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

They might have unique abilities, and from bonds, but they won't be a Bondsmith

^ This and

8 hours ago, WhiteEmporer said:

I'd be inclined to agree that you can't have a bondsmith for just any unmade. The spren for Bondsmiths are aligned in a special way (which I don't fully understand) with a shard or with a joining of two shards. I don't think all of the unmade are like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher in this respect. 

I think Sja-Anat could possibly attain this position as a dual Honor/Odium spren. It's also possible there could be a spren who is to Odium what the Stormfather is to Honor, in which case that spren could form a Bondsmith bond. 

A relevant point: it seemed from Navani's research in RoW that Odium may have at some point BECOME one of the "gods" of Roshar. I suppose before he was merely a visitor. But right now his tone IS one of the three "pure tones of Roshar ". So potentially some of these possibilities we're discussing weren't feasible until Odium was sufficiently invested in the planet. It seems like he is now, though, so I'd be on the lookout for it, especially once we get to the back 5.

^ This

I don't believe what you'll have after bonding the Unmade would be anything like a Bondsmith.

I think the Unmade would have to change in some way, in order to become a Bondsmith spren. Ba-Ado-Mishram, who learned to grant Voidlight and was Connected to the spren of Roshar and Connected herself to the Singers seems like the prime candidate. As does Sja-Anat who can alter spren somehow.

And doing so is possible now that Odium is truly one of the Shards of Roshar and the new Odium might be willing to do it.

I do not believe that Odium is incapable of granting Bondsmith powers, as that is supposedly what destroyed Ashyn, Bondsmith unchained and Odium was the Shard that powered the Surges there (well and plus a Dawnshard), also Yelig-Nar can grant all 10 Surges, incl Adhesion, the Pure Surge of Honor, and Connection is also used by the Regal form of Envoyform.

 

The Unmade like Nergaoul the Thrill and Yelig-Nar seem to already be bond capable in a different way, I'm not sure if something like them could be Nahel Bonded though.

Possibly Ashertmarn the Heart of the Revel too, if their effect uses some similar manner of bonding as Nergaoul.

And possibly Moelach of the Death Rattles too, it's possible they Bond to a person at the moment of death to access Fortune in the Spiritual.

Re-Shephir the Midnight Mother is capable of creating Midnight Essence, so she can create spren? That... seems like a very Bondsmith spren level ability? 

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4 hours ago, Honorless said:

I do not believe that Odium is incapable of granting Bondsmith powers, as that is supposedly what destroyed Ashyn, Bondsmith unchained and Odium was the Shard that powered the Surges there

Actually that was Cultivation

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

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54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually that was Cultivation

  Hide contents

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

He's talking about the disease-based magic system there, not the Surges. Both the in-world legends and WoBs support that Voidbinding itself originated in Ashyn and that it is associated with Odium. 

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Just now, Honorless said:

He's talking about the disease-based magic system there, not the Surges. Both the in-world legends and WoBs support that Voidbinding itself originated in Ashyn and that it is associated with Odium. 

the disease based magic system is surgebinding.

I'm also really intrested to see the WoB linking Ashyn to Voidbinding

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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

the disease based magic system is surgebinding.

I'm also really intrested to see the WoB linking Ashyn to Voidbinding

Are you asking if there's a WoB that you can find by those two keywords, I'm afraid not. But Brandon has confirmed that Ashyn used to have a form of Surgebinding, that Odium is associated with Voidbinding, that Odium is connected to the destruction of Ashyn (apparently he didn't just fuel the Surges but tempted Ishar somehow, as per RoW)

Quote

Blightsong

In Oathbringer it is revealed that the humans who originally came to Roshar were the first ones to be named Voidbringers and that they carried magical powers. The Stormfather also implies that modern Surgebinding didn't exist before the Heralds. Were the original powers that the humans possessed Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

So, we're getting into lots of interesting definitional problems here. And also the ways that different entities perceive the definitions of different terms. I will answer this question specifically as we do the flashbacks from Ash and Taln's viewpoints. So you've got a long ways to wait. But understand that definitions are not always-- the way that people define things cannot always be trusted. That said, humans were not using powers from Honor originally.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)
Quote

Ryan

Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges.

Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020)
Quote

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

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