Saodar

Fifth Ideal Windrunner Abilities

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There's a lot of thoughts going around as to what new abilities might be gained at the Fifth Ideal of the Windrunners.

One possibility I thought of is the Radiant spren is brought enough into the Physical Realm that they can Surgebind almost on their own. For example, a spren could lash an item toward the Radiant, almost acting as a form of telekinesis.

I'd be curious to hear what other people think of this idea!

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Syl can has been using Adhesion since the beginning (and apparently that's the kind of thing windspren in general do a lot, since their reputation is for sticking things together for shenanigans), so unless it would send that to another level, I don't think they'd necessarily need a 5th Ideal Radiant to pull that kind of thing.

But my record on predicting these things is very bad, so don't take my word for it.

Edited by Invocation
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29 minutes ago, Invocation said:

...so unless it would send that to another level, I don't think they'd necessarily need a 5th Ideal Radiant to pull that kind of thing.

This is exactly what I'm theorizing: an existing function of the spren, boosted and powered by the strengthened relationship with the Radiant.

I'm typically of the frame of mind that new abilities don't come out of nowhere, they build on what is already present. This feels like a natural progression, as we've already seen Syl becoming more "advanced" in the physical realm (i.e. changing her dress's color)

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19 hours ago, Saodar said:

This is exactly what I'm theorizing: an existing function of the spren, boosted and powered by the strengthened relationship with the Radiant.

 

Ah, my bad, I misunderstood. 

Yeah it might be a progression of that. 

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My brother thinks the fifth Ideal lets them hold stormlight indefinitely, but after RoW, I don't think that's it.  It would likely be something that doesn't create a physical object, and it's likely the same for every order.  I think the only radiant if the fifth ideal currently is Nale, at least as far as we know.  We also know that it's possible to break a Nahael bond without killing the knight up until the fifth ideal, according to Notum.  

This is just a guess, but since all the other radiant ideals create something external, maybe the fifth is some kind of self-actualization and helps heal their souls, the trauma they've gone through. I know Kaladin says at the end of RoW that the oaths don't fix them, but twice now it's been mentioned that radiant's fill the cracks with something stronger (a line I love, by the way).

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Windrunner powers seem particularly geared towards recruiting, assisting, and defending others. We're already seeing the beginning of a Cult of Kaladin forming, and I think the 5th Ideal power will reflect that and enhance it: Allowing the Radiant to infuse others with temporary Radiant powers at will. Through Spiritual Gravitation and Adhesion, Kaladin could forge a connection with basically anyone but especially people who idolize him and paint his sigil on their faces. I imagine a burst of light washing over a crowd and leaving them all glowing. 

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Wait, would the fifth ideal mean that a radiant could not break their oaths? If only death can separate a radiant and spren, would breaking oaths not affect them? Or does breaking oaths not break the Nahael bond? After all, Kaladin did restore his bond with Syl in Words of Radiance after breaking his oaths.

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On 12/9/2021 at 2:05 PM, Jake Tenebris said:

Wait, would the fifth ideal mean that a radiant could not break their oaths? If only death can separate a radiant and spren, would breaking oaths not affect them? Or does breaking oaths not break the Nahael bond? After all, Kaladin did restore his bond with Syl in Words of Radiance after breaking his oaths.

The comment you're referring to in Oathbringer: re "breaking" of the bond that was being discussed was a: against the will of both spren and human and b: safe for the spren. The honorspren wanted to forcibly part Kal and Syl without breaking Syl. They implied that if Kaladin was at 5th oath, they would not be able to do this. But a knight breaking his oath would still do it.

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how about that they get a ryshadium? imagine Kaladin riding a ryshadium through the sky.... my cousin is fearing that image in their head.

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On 12/6/2021 at 10:18 PM, Letryx13 said:

My brother thinks the fifth Ideal lets them hold stormlight indefinitely, but after RoW, I don't think that's it.  It would likely be something that doesn't create a physical object, and it's likely the same for every order.  I think the only radiant if the fifth ideal currently is Nale, at least as far as we know.  We also know that it's possible to break a Nahael bond without killing the knight up until the fifth ideal, according to Notum.  

This is just a guess, but since all the other radiant ideals create something external, maybe the fifth is some kind of self-actualization and helps heal their souls, the trauma they've gone through. I know Kaladin says at the end of RoW that the oaths don't fix them, but twice now it's been mentioned that radiant's fill the cracks with something stronger (a line I love, by the way).

My current theory (which is very crackpot and I openly admit that) leans a little more into the "anime" inspirations/undertones of SA, but still builds logically on those features of the actual bond.

TL;DR The bond between Radiant and Spren becomes so deep and thorough that their Spiritwebs and Identities are no longer individually distinguishable, and they become one entity.

To what extent, I'm not entirely sure. But this would certainly explain why the bond suddenly becomes impossible to break safely, would likely result in a huge boost for the Radiant, and the Spren would gain a truly Physical aspect, the physical aspect of their radiant. The cracks in the Radiant's soul would be totally filled in.

Now, I should also address some of the obvious, potential, issues.

"What happens to the Sprenblade?"
Could be a few different things, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up manifesting as a true extension of their body as normal. I'm not saying, like, their arm turns into a sword, but just that they can still manifest it, now directly Connected to them, making its form-shifting capability even more responsive. I guess Nale is my best example of this, since we know he's at 5th ideal.

"What about Shardplate?"

Well, I don't think the Lesser spren would become fully ingrained in the Radiant's spiritweb. Part of their usefulness in manifesting as shardplate is their individuality.

"But Nale doesn't really look like a person-shaped rift in space..."

Maybe not physically. I wouldn't be shocked if part of the reason Lift calls him "Darkness" has to do with the appearance of his Spren at the 5th ideal... Again, I recognize my theory is VERY CRACKPOT. I accept that I may be wrong, but I still want to see if I'm right.

"But... But Sylladin!"

... She's a Spren. She's already emotionally supportive for Kal. And we already know there's weird stuff going on with Kal and Syl, Realmatically speaking, so I don't think we can assume they'll behave normally at 5th ideal. Son of Tanavast and all that. Or, maybe, the real twist is that Kal is the ONLY Radiant where this actually happens to the fullest extent! Hah! Guess we just gotta RAFO, huh. ;)

Hm. That's all the concerns I can think of. Ask me more if you have any, I'll answer when i've got some more free time. :)

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On 12/20/2021 at 0:36 PM, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

how about that they get a ryshadium? imagine Kaladin riding a ryshadium through the sky.... my cousin is fearing that image in their head.

Probably this. They’re called Knights for a reason. What makes a knight? A sword, armor, and … a horse! Here we have magic sword, magic armor, and magic horses. Easy peezy. And Brandon has all but backed this up. It’s what he was going for with the whole “knight” thing.

As for the fifth oath, I personally believe (and I’ve said it before, so, sorry.) that the Fifth Ideal has to do with the Why of the order. For Windrunners it would be the answer to Zahel’s question (why do you fight?) and an excellent wrapup for Kaladin’s Journey from the beginning of his story (Journey before Destination).

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On 12/7/2021 at 4:18 AM, Letryx13 said:

but twice now it's been mentioned that radiant's fill the cracks with something stronger (a line I love, by the way).

Nice catch! I mentioned that repeat as well!

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23 hours ago, Xaladin said:

Probably this. They’re called Knights for a reason. What makes a knight? A sword, armor, and … a horse! Here we have magic sword, magic armor, and magic horses. Easy peezy. And Brandon has all but backed this up. It’s what he was going for with the whole “knight” thing.

To support this idea, Kaladin is going east with Szeth. While ryshadium don't stay in the Shinnovar specifically, he is getting closer to where they normally are. Mabye he runs into one and forms a bond with it.

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@Halyo_Alex

I think I am with you on this.

 

I kind of feel like they fuse with their spren. Which is the reason why once someone has said their 5th ideal, they can only break their bond with death.

This is why for Sky Breakers, they must 'become the law'. They become the law by fusing with their spren, who embodies law.

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1 hour ago, apepi said:

@Halyo_Alex

I think I am with you on this.

 

I kind of feel like they fuse with their spren. Which is the reason why once someone has said their 5th ideal, they can only break their bond with death.

This is why for Sky Breakers, they must 'become the law'. They become the law by fusing with their spren, who embodies law.

I don't like this, simply because it would likely mean characters like Syl and Pattern would sorta stop existing 

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15 hours ago, Sp00ks said:

I don't like this, simply because it would likely mean characters like Syl and Pattern would sorta stop existing 

I am not sure about that, it is like saying that Preservation and Ruin aren't existing either now.

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8 hours ago, apepi said:

I am not sure about that, it is like saying that Preservation and Ruin aren't existing either now.

Preservation and Ruin aren't characters though. If you're referring to Leras and Ati, they are certainly no longer characters

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On 12/22/2021 at 1:02 AM, Halyo_Alex said:

My current theory (which is very crackpot and I openly admit that) leans a little more into the "anime" inspirations/undertones of SA, but still builds logically on those features of the actual bond.

TL;DR The bond between Radiant and Spren becomes so deep and thorough that their Spiritwebs and Identities are no longer individually distinguishable, and they become one entity.

Wasn't there an implication that all 5th Ideal Radiants are bonded to that degree?

ROW:

Spoiler

If Windrunners keep going with the Protection attribute, then possibly they could extend their Shardplate into a force field, rather than just putting the Plate on an individual. Kind of like a larger Halo bubble shield.
If certain theories that they will shift towards focusing on Leadership are true, then they might provide a boost to their squires in some way. Is it stated how someone becomes a squire of a particular Radiant? Bridge Thirteen become Teft's Squires, but I don't recall why they specifically became his.

 

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