KaladinWorldsinger Posted December 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: On 12/8/2021 at 3:12 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said: To me the difference comes with the effort needed to 'fix' them. Each of our main characters has a loooong journey to deal with their issues and they are still not done. With Taln, someone swearing an ideal near him was enough to 'fix' him for a second. He gains lucidity in an instant and he can suddenly talk properly and have a conversation, he still cares about humanity. It's too fast for me to really think he is broken in any meaningful way. I think that this is acceptable as a magical effect, especially post-RoW. Ishar drops the fact that people see clearer when a Radiant swears an Ideal: Quote "I can see clearly," the voice said from within the perpendicularity. "O do not know why. Has a new Bondsmith been sworn? We have a Connection, all of us . . . Nevertheless, I feel my sanity slipping. My mind is broken, and I do not know if it can be healed." "Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm." -RoW, chapter 111 This is said as being because the Radiant touches the Spiritual, and Taln's moment of lucidity was attached to an instance when at least two Ideals were sworn (Dalinar and Szeth), as well as Dalinar uniting the Realms. The Spiritual is almost the same as the Physical at this time. The sequence of events is this: Quote UNITE THEM! Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought. He thrust his right hand to the the other side, touching something vast, soemthing that wasn't a place—it was all places in one. He'd seen this before, in the moment when Odium had let him glimpse the Spiritual Realm. Today he held it in his hand. [...] Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning. "I am Unity." He slammed both hands together. And combined three realms into one. [Kaladin pov] [Ash pov with lucid Taln] -Oathbringer, chapter 119 Except for the short Kaladin pov, Taln's lucidity comes immediately after Dalinar unites the Realms. If someone just touching the Spiritual is enough to make people see more clearly, can't we expect someone grabbing it and overlapping it with the other Realms to do the same, but much more? We can even see that the Realms are still touching later: Quote Jasnah stepped over a corpse. Her Blade vanished in a puff of Stormlight, and Ivory appeared next to her, his oily black features concerned as he regarded the sky. "This place is three, still," he said. "Almost three." "Or three places are nearly one," Jasnah replied. Another batch of gloryspren flocked past, and she could see them as they were in the Cognitive Realm: like strange avians with long wings, and a golden sphere in place of the head. Well, being able to see into the Cognitive Realm without trying was one of the least unnerving things that had happened so far today. -Oathbringer, chapter 120 I think this implies a fairly major effect, so Taln snapping back to lucidity from being basically insensate isn't that strange. On 12/8/2021 at 3:12 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said: Each herald still feels broken in the real sense too ie that they clearly had a threshold of pain they could handle before giving up. To me, their problems are not just magical in nature. I actually think the millennia of torture may be what makes the difference here. Kalak is exhausted and talks about how he doesn't remember, Ash admits to losing long stretches of time. Part of the problem for the other Heralds is existing for so long, sensory imput, memories and all. Taln probably only has torture for the last four-and-a-half thousand years, not any varied imput or experience. The other nine are exhausted in a way Taln isn't, but Taln is far more worn down, as he just held out. On 12/8/2021 at 3:12 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said: Ooh, Where did we learn that? I don't remember this. It's in the Shadesmar sequence: Quote They'd stopped in a large circle, surrounding something at their center. Adolin gritted his teeth and guided Gallant with his knees to charge in close so he could survey better. Spren had been . . . cagey about whether they could be killed in Shadesmar. He'd seen them carry weapons, and during his earlier trip, Notum's sailors had admitted that spren could be cut and feel pain. "Killing" them involved hurting them so much that their minds broke and they became something akin to a deadeye. -RoW, chapter 35 Quote "Do you know this Cryptic?" Amuna demanded from the steps. "If it's the same one I saw when I first landed on these shores," Adolin said, "then no. I just saw them once, in the market where the caravans cross." "You know here story?" "I . . . Yes, I was told it by a shopkeeper." "She was killed only a few years ago," Amuna said. "This is proof of your lies. Modern Radiants cannot be trusted." "There is no evidence that a Radiant did this," Adolin said. "We encountered humans—who have nothing to do with my people—who attacked Notum. Perhaps they attacked her." "That kind of attack leaves a spren who can eventually be healed, with enough Stormlight," Amuna said. "The only true death for a spren—the only way to create a deadeye—is through broken Radiant oaths." -RoW, chapter 90 And as the Heralds (and Cognitive Shadows in general) are compared to spren, it isn't out of the question that they would break in a similar way. Wow, I am really surprised by how many different opinions the thread has over this. So spren can become like deadeyes if you torture them enough but they can be healed through stormlight? What an obscure detail that I still didn't pick up on my reread. Grrr. So spren are very similar to humans! Because I didn't think that torture would effect spren much at all. They don't have real physical bodies, they are made out of investiture, they can heal quickly through stormlight. Clearly I was wrong about that. Do you think these deadeye-like spren can break their oaths? If yes, then then it explains a lot about the heralds as it explains how all the heralds could suffer centuries of torture. It gives a very simple explanation for their superhuman endurances. It doesn't explain why Taln is so much better at this than the others, so I feel like we are back at the same question. Also, the spren gets healed with enough stormlight, but Taln regresses back to his addled state. So I don't know if this works If no, then the two situations are not comparable because we know the 9 heralds broke their oaths. You just burst my brain with this piece of information. I can see this being very important. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Kalak is exhausted and talks about how he doesn't remember, Ash admits to losing long stretches of time. Part of the problem for the other Heralds is existing for so long, sensory imput, memories and all. Taln probably only has torture for the last four-and-a-half thousand years, not any varied imput or experience. The other nine are exhausted in a way Taln isn't, but Taln is far more worn down, as he just held out. Idk about this, I just feel torture is worse than pretty much everything else, even if it will start to blend together. But I can see the point. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: In any case, they gave in to the torture and he didn't, for whatever reason. He stubbornly held out and was basically worn into nothing, they gave in before that point, but were worn thin. What do you mean by worn into nothing? Is that connected to the quote below this? Quote I do like the idea that he was worn down to the point that he basically couldn't give in A psychology where a person 'couldnt' give in is a very weird type of psychology that I don't think exists really. And since Brandon writes deeply about people's psychology in stormlight, something unrealistic like this would not work I feel. But if he just brushes it off, I can see that happening. But then that would be convenient On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: I still find it "reasonable" that Taln managed to hold out, he's known to have achieved impossible victories at the cost of his own life. This could be seen as that idea taken to an extreme I guess, then it will be very interesting how the characters in the story interact with him. Do they emulate him, feel inferior to him, hurt themselves to be like him? On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Seeing as we've never seen Taln before the modern day, we really can't say what he was or wasn't like as a person. Other than what we've heard from others. His mind is also... off... what with "torture sublime, for life it meant." Unless that's meant to mean life for Roshar. Though that is still an unhealthy attitude I agree, but I don't see much room for change in his personality from what we have heard and seen. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Ah I think that presenting the moment as positive (turns out there's a way to help the Heralds) doesn't mean that what happens in the moment is positive when examined. Look at how Ash reacts. In fact, I could see self-sacrifice being Taln's madness, just as Nale's legal madness and Ishar's god complex. On which note, Kalak doesn't feel insane to me, just flippant and snarky. At least when he's not being anxiety in human form, but even then, that's not insanity. He's also 110% done with the fight against Odium and is exhausted and disillusioned and wants out. I see Taln's madness being as a simpleton and scared of fighting( both things used to describe Taln right now) Kalak definitely is more sane than some of the others, but he clearly had problems with making a decision. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond to this. I don't think something working automatically justifies that thing. If a plan gives the entire humanity 4500 years to rest and recuperate and heal from a sudden stone age, the plan sounds good. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: I mean, there's also the fact that he barely registers the world around him and isn't functional. Which immediately gets fixed for a second. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: As has been pointed out, it seems no-one expected the Heralds to be able to break. I don't believe this for a sec, because they clearly had precautions for when they break. Also, nobody is that stupid right? On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Fair enough, though as RoW is the first book to make this connection explicit, and coming off the first that properly establishes the "killing" of spren, we haven't had the information to work from before. Also, there's been so little focus on the Heralds over all. I strongly believe in Brandon because how real his characters feel. I know whatever reason he has for Taln's incredible feat would make sense and I don't think it will be revealed as just pure determination. If the answer is that he is a total spren, then I think Brandon can't afford to be vague about the distinction between spren and men for the sake of wonder because of all his fans who suffer from things like depression and can be easily confused with what Taln means in the story. On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Question, is your problem that Taln never gave in, or broke, or that he isn't broken? Because I might have misunderstood what you took umbrage with and argued against a position that you don't actually hold. I have three issues that I think need explaining 1) the idea that someone could handle 7000 years of torture and still not give up. 2) that after that much pain, he seems ok when he gains lucidity and seems normal 3)that he is mentally broken in any meaningful way if he can be fixed quickly On 12/19/2021 at 4:46 PM, Inquisitor #5 said: Ooof, right in the mental health. Yeah, that I can fully agree with, Taln can easily become a problematic symbol in-world. Someone needs to make sure Kaladin never learns of this... On 12/20/2021 at 5:52 AM, Sp00ks said: I do agree that from a story telling perspective, Taln breaking eventually would have been better. Just makes him seem somehow more heroic and real that way. Yay! Some people agrees with me.(sings to validation) ( I for some reason can't get outside the quote boxes. It's really annoying) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: It doesn't explain why Taln is so much better at this than the others, so I feel like we are back at the same question. Wouldn't that just be because he is essentially becoming a spren of Endurance? The other Heralds represent different ideals, so becoming less a person and more an ideal would not give them more endurance- but it would do that for Taln. I think this transformation is a pretty general Cosmere process, like Ati/Ruin being once "a kind and generous man" and ending up as what we see in Hero of Ages. I think Zahel comparing himself to a fossil and talking about the nature of Cognitive Shadows in RoW, and the Fused spiritual/mental "decay", are big hints towards this. The Heralds are not really human any more, just as the Fused are not really singers any more (the Stormfather calls them "the spren of the dead"). I expect Taln's flashbacks to be deep past, Ashyn migration or early Desolations era, when he was much more human. Present Taln doesn't need to be much of a character for the flashbacks to work (like Eshonai's in RoW). 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: I don't believe this for a sec, because they clearly had precautions for when they break. Also, nobody is that stupid right? The Stormfather specifically said they expected it to be forever. He also specifically says "They were wrong. Honor was wrong" with reference to its lasting forever. And that it was meant to be a permanent end of war (so cyclical Desolations were definitely not intended). So I think the plans for the Returns / Desolations must be later, after it had gone wrong the first time. I don't know that anyone had to be stupid. It's possible there was no way to know that would work until it was actually tried- torturing the Heralds might have been a low probability desperation move by the Fused that turned out to work. Maybe they wouldn't have expected coercion to "count" for purposes of the oath. Or maybe they were expected to be disembodied Cognitive Shadows on Braize, and so didn't expect it to be possible at all (but the Fused discovered something unexpected). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: So spren can become like deadeyes if you torture them enough but they can be healed through stormlight? What an obscure detail that I still didn't pick up on my reread. Grrr. Yeah, happens to all of us. I caught something that was basically spelled out in WoK just earlier today. 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: So spren are very similar to humans! Because I didn't think that torture would effect spren much at all. They don't have real physical bodies, they are made out of investiture, they can heal quickly through stormlight. Clearly I was wrong about that. Well, as long as they can feel pain. Even if physical trauma doesn't last, they've still been hurt. 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Do you think these deadeye-like spren can break their oaths? Hmm. Good question. I can see the rules being similar but not quite the same between spren and Cognitive Shadows. Wait... Quote "You cannot break oaths," Dalinar said, fingers still resting on the Honorblade. "Right?" I cannot. "What of the thing we fight? Odium, the origin of the Voidbringers and their spren. Can he break oaths?" No, the Stormfather said. He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time. These things cannot break their own rules. Nor can he. -Oathbringer, chapter 16 This claims that spren and Vessels can't break their oaths. However: Quote "I cannot break my word," Odium said, the heat increasing. "I basically am incapable of it." "Basically?" Dalinar pressed. "What happens, Odium, if you break your word." "Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me." -RoW, chapter 112 This confirms that Vessels can break their word (which is presumably equivalent to an oath), but it hurts them. Quote "Grand ideals," Zahel said. "Optimism. Yeah, you'd make a terrible swordmaster. Be wary of those Fused, kid. The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We're spren masquerading as men. That's why she takes our memories. She knows we aren't the actual people who died, but something else given a corpse to inhabit. . . ." -RoW, chapter 15 Here we see first a comparison to spren, then directly the idea that Cognitive Shadows are spren inhabiting bodies. The latter I think isn't quite true, but they are something very similar to spren. So, we have a direct comparison between Cognitive Shadows and spren, and a comparison between Vessels and spren. Spren are said to not be able to break oaths, but I think it's reasonable to think that they can't break oaths in the same way that Vessels can't. They technically can, but it harms them. So, if similar rules govern spren and Vessels, and similar rules govern Cognitive Shadows and spren, then it's plausible that Vessels and Cognitive Shadows follow similar rules. So, all three can break oath, but all three are harmed by it. This might in fact be part of what happened to the other Heralds, at least the first time they gave in it hurt them Spiritually, being part of why they are so broken now. I think that a pseudo-deadeye might have a hard time breaking oath, actually. At least with Intent. 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: If yes, then then it explains a lot about the heralds as it explains how all the heralds could suffer centuries of torture. It gives a very simple explanation for their superhuman endurances. It doesn't explain why Taln is so much better at this than the others, so I feel like we are back at the same question. Yes, I think it's a rather elegant solution. As for Taln, all the others gave in before him, and I'd think that once they gave in, assuming this damaged them as speculated above, it was probably easier for them to break subsequent times. Remember that all that's necessary for a Desolation to start is that one Herald breaks, so as long as a single other Herald broke before he did, he could have gotten through all the ancient Desolations without breaking. Just like the joke about being chased by a bear, you don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. We know from Kalak that it's been 7000 years, 4500 of those are Taln's Endurance Hour, this gives him 2500 years where he didn't break on account of someone else breaking first, where he had time to become more spren-like, more aligned with his Intent. Now, we don't know what that Intent is, but given that the Heralds were supposed to seal away the Fused, it's probably something to do with that. If he had 2500 years to be moulded to that Intent, without the damage incurred by breaking, then he might basically be a spren of holding the Fused back. Being much less able to break simply by his his nature at that point. 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Also, the spren gets healed with enough stormlight, but Taln regresses back to his addled state. So I don't know if this works I understood the spren healing to be a gradual process, they can recover with time and Light. Taln's lucidity I don't think comes from the Stormlight pouring out of the perpendicularity, but from the Spiritual being so close. A major but temporary effect. I also don't know if the rules are the exact same, though even if they are, Taln would need a way to take in Light, which he currently doesn't. 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Idk about this, I just feel torture is worse than pretty much everything else, even if it will start to blend together. But I can see the point. Right, I'm not saying it's worse, just that the torture probably isn't a ton of distinct memories. And part of the problem for the Heralds is the memory issue. (Which I assume ties into their mental states, though I could be wrong on this.) Their minds are overwhelmed both by repeated breaking under torture and by sheer information density, they can't retain thousands of years worth of memories. 6 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: What do you mean by worn into nothing? Is that connected to the quote below this? The other Heralds broke, like something brittle. They are cracked, broken, shattered. Taln is ground down, never reaching a point where someting snapped or cracked, but instead the entire thing was ground into dust. In this scheme, Taln is much more thoroughly broken (ground into nothing). Does this make sense? 7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: A psychology where a person 'couldnt' give in is a very weird type of psychology that I don't think exists really. Ah, I meant in the sense that was brought up earlier in the thread, that Taln is beyond the point where he can make a conscious choice. And seeing how the magic works, being able to do it with Intent might matter. 7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Do they emulate him, feel inferior to him, hurt themselves to be like him? All plausible. 7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: I see Taln's madness being as a simpleton and scared of fighting Entirely possible, I personally think the latter is a likelier madness and the former an effect of the torture. 7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: If a plan gives the entire humanity 4500 years to rest and recuperate and heal from a sudden stone age, the plan sounds good. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I suppose it depends on whether one considers it "broke" then. 7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Which immediately gets fixed for a second. I would put the emphasis on "for a second," rather than "immediately." Taln is being something close to his ideal self in that moment, but it seems to have had no lasting effect on him. It's not something that I see as a solution to the problem. If one could facilitate it happening perpetually it could "work" but it doesn't actually heal the underlying problem, but bypasses it. Basically, Taln is old Taln, not healed Taln in that moment. Or so I think anyway. 7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: I don't believe this for a sec, because they clearly had precautions for when they break. Also, nobody is that stupid right? Well, believe it: Quote THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG. "He was like a spren himself," Dalinar said. "You told me before—Odium too." HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL. THE TEN HERALDS WERE SEALED UPON DAMNATION, TRAPPING THE VOIDBRINGERS THERE. HOWEVER, IF ANY OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN. -Oathbringer, chapter 38 And yes, Honor was, if not that stupid, that ignorant. 8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: If the answer is that he is a total spren, then I think Brandon can't afford to be vague about the distinction between spren and men for the sake of wonder because of all his fans who suffer from things like depression and can be easily confused with what Taln means in the story. Yeah, it would be nice for him to establish the distinction between Herald madness and mundane mental health clearly in the books, though I think that RoW has laid the groundwork to do so, now it just needs to happen. 8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: 1) the idea that someone could handle 7000 years of torture and still not give up. I hope that my first point has offered at least a plausible explanation for that. 8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: 2) that after that much pain, he seems ok when he gains lucidity and seems normal 3)that he is mentally broken in any meaningful way if he can be fixed quickly I feel like both of these I've also addressed, though how satisfactory or likely my ideas sound to you I don't know. ¤_¤ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 18 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Taln's lucidity I don't think comes from the Stormlight pouring out of the perpendicularity, but from the Spiritual being so close. A major but temporary effect. This seems analogous to Mistborn things: Spoiler Mistwraiths are humans who have a blockage between Physical and Cognitive. When TLR made mistwraiths and then turned the First Generation into kandra, the spikes restored their minds & memories. Koloss lose much of their minds, but when they die and appear in the Cognitive Realm, they are coherent. But as Taln is a Cognitive Shadow, he's probably worse off- his Cognitive aspect is presumably itself damaged, not just blocked from connecting properly to his Physical self. But if you could permanently connect Taln to the *Spiritual* Realm more fully, maybe he'd be more coherent in a lasting way? -- Rosharans use the word "spren" pretty broadly - there's a WoB that they'd probably call Adonalsium a spren, and another one that they use that word for regular Cognitive aspects ("everything has a spren", etc). So Cognitive Shadows are spren to them (eg when the Stormfather calls the Fused "the spren of the dead") though Khriss etc. would draw a distinction. Re the contradicting quotes on Odium's ability to break an oath: the Stormfather's understanding may be imperfect here, as he is a spren himself. The Shards are held by human Vessels; the Shard of Odium itself is a cosmic force "like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time", but with its Vessel... This may matter more in the next book, as Taravangian is a new Vessel not yet heavily shaped by the Shard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 24, 2021 Report Share Posted December 24, 2021 Re spren free will and ability/inability to break oaths: Quote Blightsong Can honorspren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil despite their relationship to Tanavast or Cultivation? Brandon Sanderson Yes, because I don't call the Shards good and evil. There are no good and evil Shards in my opinion, like and so, what's evil and what's not evil- you can totally have spren that are of Honor that you would consider evil. They have free will; they are much more strictly limited in that free will than we are, because of their nature as spren. It's very hard for most spren to ever break an oath or to lie. That's just like- as manifestations of laws of nature makes it very hard for that to happen, but they can be cruel. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoey Posted December 28, 2021 Report Share Posted December 28, 2021 On 12/5/2021 at 10:01 AM, Inquisitor #5 said: So, as people have already mentioned, Taln didn't break under torture, in that he never betrayed his oath. But the torture broke him. Badly. -WoR, interlude I-7 I think it's safe to say that he's thoroughly scarred by his four-and-a-half millenia of torture. I imagine that a lot of the time simply blurred together into a continuous experience of suffering, just being lost in agony. And the Heralds are obviously superhuman in several respects. Taln is something extra, to be fair. Presumably something like having the kind of mind that doesn't easily give in to torture, coupled with being superhuman. I could also see the whole Herald madness thing being helpful here, as he probably didn't suffer the same sort of reaction to people's perception as the others. Assuming that his mind was busy with pain. We know that the Stonewards are the Radiants most similar to their patron in temprament, and it's not improbable that the perception of Taln is an exaggeration of his known traits, such as stubborness. In conclusion, the torture broke all the Heralds, but only caused nine of them to give in. Or all are broken by the torture, but not all broke under torture. ¤_¤ Yeah, this is how I saw it, really. It was a mixture of him not knowing how long passed, and him kinda going too crazy to really give in. He also is likely deeply effected by his perception as the unbreakable and unbendable Bearer of Agonies. He is not perfect, he very much was bent and damaged, but never broke, as in never gave in. He is still mentally broken, and him not giving in was not necessarily out of him being impossibly resistant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 On 12/6/2021 at 4:55 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said: I had almost completely forgotten about this interlude and had to go read it again. But if his mind is that incoherent, then why does he suddenly become coherent when Dalinar opens the perpendicularity? He recovers a little too quickly for PTSd-torture-induced madness. His quick fix and reverting back to original state makes me think it's magical madness than real madness in the interlude. He becomes briefly lucid because Dalinar opened the perpendicularity. Dalinar combined the physical realm, shadesmar, and the spiritual realm, into one place for a few seconds, meaning Taln could, however briefly, reconnect with the bits of him that are in the spiritual realm. That's my theory at least. You see it elsewhere too, with Adolin and Maya. Touching the spiritual realm allowed Maya to regain a mote of her sentience, because that's where part of her is. Also with Dalinar and Evi, and the "I forgive you" line. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 Also, the spiritual realm is kind of timeless, so there might be kind of "memories" of the old pre-broken version of Taln (or Maya) persisting in the spiritual that they can connect to. Either that or Herald insanity and Deadeye "death" are at least partly caused by a Realmatic blockage like Spoiler the mindlessness of mistwraiths on Scadrial, caused by a blockage between Physical and Cognitive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDeadrat Posted May 12, 2023 Report Share Posted May 12, 2023 IMO the simple solution to this problem is showing Taln's life before the oath pact and how flawed he was before becoming an icon for perseverance. This would align with the themes of broken people becoming more than anyone thought they could ever be, especially themselves. You say that that level of determination can't be cultivated, but I think it can. I think Kaladin post 4th ideal is starting to do something that seemed impossible for him in the past and that's accepting the death of those he couldn't save and finding meaning in the moments they have. Who's to say Taln couldn't have experienced a life where he lands of an understanding of the world that makes him unbreakable in this specific situation? Especially since the Heralds are supposed to be the blue prints for 5th Ideal Radiants. The comparison to the other Heralds can be problematic tho. I think an elegant solution to this would be to frame the breaking of the other Heralds as more of a difference in philosophy than a lack of merit. The other Heralds wonder if what they are suffering for is even moral. Are humans even entitled to Roshar? Are they on the wrong side of ethics? For Talns philosophy these questions are irrelevant and he will serve. For the others they act as the cracks that eventually break them time and time again. This doesn't place Taln over the other Heralds as much and puts into question Taln's unrelenting devotion. I think Taln can be handled well, hope he is done justice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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