Taln is a very problematic character...[Discuss]

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Taln as we have actually seen him is entirely Undependable because he is either coherent and comepant or far more often a shuffling, mumbling child, with no predictable pattern, so you cannot Depend on him for literally anything including Being Crazy.  He might be more stoic than the rest or have proven more resilient, etc. but he cannot be Depended upon for anything as he is now.  Taln's a special case in the Oathpact though. For all we know only recently and very suddenly gained the condition once he returned and was his fully capable self before he returned to Roshar this most recent time, where the others might have gained the effect slowly in the time they've remained here.  

Nale himself openly doubts his own interpretation of Justice to the point where he warns Szeth against swearing this Ideals to Nale directly, which is a level of self-doubt that the "Herald of Confidence" shouldn't normally reach.  

So you think that Taln didn't break for four millenia by normal human strength of will? Nale might not be confident now but that is because of the return of the voidbringers and his interaction with Lift. Him telling Szeth not to look at him for an example of justice comes from the last shreds of his humanity that tells him that something is wrong with him. If he was the antithesis of confidence and justice, then he would not be able to make the decision to join the voidbringers, and he would certainly not have told Szeth this at the end of OB:

Quote

"Then we will both fight with confidence, knowing that we obey the precepts of our oaths."

The return of the voidbringers and his temporary sanity with Lift barely caused him to so much as admit that he might not be as perfect a judge as he thinks he is.

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

So you think that Taln didn't break for four millenia by normal human strength of will?

Nope, I personally think his Mind broke a long time ago in a way that was less useful to the Void forces torturing him because he became too broken of mind to muster the Intent they needed for him to Break his Oath. 

But since it's explicitly a magical ailment and not purely a more normal result of intense, nigh infinite torture, so I can't discount the possibility that he was entirely sane and coherent until the recent changes to the Void (the Everstorm, etc) that let Odium return without him "breaking" like the others to start a Desolation. 

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Nale might not be confident now but that is because of the return of the voidbringers and his interaction with Lift. Him telling Szeth not to look at him for an example of justice comes from the last shreds of his humanity that tells him that something is wrong with him. If he was the antithesis of confidence and justice, then he would not be able to make the decision to join the voidbringers, and he would certainly not have told Szeth this at the end of OB:

The return of the voidbringers and his temporary sanity with Lift barely caused him to so much as admit that he might not be as perfect a judge as he thinks he is.

And in theory that is the only time he's been his usual non-Mad self, being in the presence of a Radiant as they Swear a new Ideal (as Ishar said it does).  But it passed pretty quickly and again he started going to Ishar for guidance and telling Skybreakers that he considers himself an inferior Judge as compared to his past self.  

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

And in theory that is the only time he's been his usual non-Mad self, being in the presence of a Radiant as they Swear a new Ideal (as Ishar said it does).  But it passed pretty quickly and again he started going to Ishar for guidance and telling Skybreakers that he considers himself an inferior Judge as compared to his past self.  

So you think that Nale, while sane, would accept the right of the voidbringers to rule Roshar? After fighting against them as a herald for thousands of years? If Nale wasn't confident then he wouldn't have tried to kill Dalinar in RoW. There would be at least a few skybreakers that decided to fight against the parshmen instead of with them. We don't see that happening. In fact, when Nale is uncertain is when he seems most sane. When he is admitting that his sense justice is not trustworthy any longer. When he is at his most insane, such as when he is killing radiants, he is utterly confident in his ideals. When he is sane after Lift swears her third ideal is the first time we see him to be unconfident. Even when the parshmen return, he refuses to accept it, because he is utterly confident in Taln's ability to hold them off.

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

So you think that Nale, while sane, would accept the right of the voidbringers to rule Roshar? 

At minimum I think you'd have a better chance at a reasoned discussion with him in that case. 

Personally I would point out that his own argument of escalating Rights to the World might not stop at the mortal singers and instead would keep going up to the Shards where Cultivation would still be the Ruler Defending against the Invader. He's also still operating under the outdated racial assumptions, but the sides are not that clear cut anymore, with singers, humans and Spren on both sides. 

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

After fighting against them as a herald for thousands of years?

He literally IS a Voidbringer, the first generation.  Then he fought for them for millenia.  Then he operated a shadow cult that respected their laws while arranging the deaths of a subset of them that made him afraid. Im not really making assumptions on how he is going to react at this point, he's been on all the sides.  

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

If Nale wasn't confident then he wouldn't have tried to kill Dalinar in RoW.

I disagree, there's relatively little link between confidence and assassination.  And the implication has been that Nale's following Ishar's advice more than charting his own proverbial course.  

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

There would be at least a few skybreakers that decided to fight against the parshmen instead of with them. We don't see that happening.

We've seen one so far.  Which is equal to the number of Willshapers, Singer Radiants, and Elscallers we've seen, and one more than the number of modern Stonewards; which is to say there are a bunch of things we havent seen but can reasonably expect to.  And it makes sense to me that Skybreakers as a group would lean toward following an Authority figure over making their own call on the matter.  

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

In fact, when Nale is uncertain is when he seems most sane. When he is admitting that his sense justice is not trustworthy any longer. When he is at his most insane, such as when he is killing radiants, he is utterly confident in his ideals. When he is sane after Lift swears her third ideal is the first time we see him to be unconfident. Even when the parshmen return, he refuses to accept it, because he is utterly confident in Taln's ability to hold them off.

You see as taking confidence to (blindly?) hold to the course he was on, I see it as taking more to acknowledge that he might have been entirely wrong that whole time once the magical effect was removed and his former perspective and capabilities were temporarily restored. 

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

At minimum I think you'd have a better chance at a reasoned discussion with him in that case. 

Personally I would point out that his own argument of escalating Rights to the World might not stop at the mortal singers and instead would keep going up to the Shards where Cultivation would still be the Ruler Defending against the Invader. He's also still operating under the outdated racial assumptions, but the sides are not that clear cut anymore, with singers, humans and Spren on both sides. 

Yeah, but you think that he is sane when he talks to Szeth, right? He still supports the singers even in that moment.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

He literally IS a Voidbringer, the first generation.  Then he fought for them for millenia.  Then he operated a shadow cult that respected their laws while arranging the deaths of a subset of them that made him afraid. Im not really making assumptions on how he is going to react at this point, he's been on all the sides.  

Nale has always supported humans before this desolation, where he is insane. When I say voidbringers, I meant the fused.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

I disagree, there's relatively little link between confidence and assassination.  And the implication has been that Nale's following Ishar's advice more than charting his own proverbial course.  

If Nale was the opposite of confident, he would never be able to make the decision to kill Dalinar. Nale would not have been sure enough in his ideals, or in Ishar's ideals, to justify killing anyone. Confidence does not imply reliance on one's own decision making. It is fully possible to be confident in someone else while not being confident in yourself. That is the entire point of the skybreaker ideals. Being confident in an external code though you cannot be confident in yourself.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

We've seen one so far.  Which is equal to the number of Willshapers, Singer Radiants, and Elscallers we've seen, and one more than the number of modern Stonewards; which is to say there are a bunch of things we havent seen but can reasonably expect to.  And it makes sense to me that Skybreakers as a group would lean toward following an Authority figure over making their own call on the matter.  

What authority figure? an unconfident Nale would never remain an authority figure. Confidence is an essential par of leadership, and Nale should have next to none of it. Without confidence, how did he ever convince even a few of the skybreakers to join the parshmen, let alone all of them aside from Szeth?

4 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

You see as taking confidence to (blindly?) hold to the course he was on, I see it as taking more to acknowledge that he might have been entirely wrong that whole time once the magical effect was removed and his former perspective and capabilities were temporarily restored. 

As I said, he is embodying his ideals separated from all that is human in them. Thus, he will remain blindly confident in his flawed assumptions until forced to accept that he was wrong. If Nale was as unconfident as you say, how has he been able to function as well as he has? Shouldn't he be crippled by uncertainty like Kalak at the least? Shouldn't he be even worse?

Regardless, we've derailed the thread. This is supposed to be a discussion about Taln's character, not a discussion about the madness of the heralds in general.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Ookla the unintelligible

[Quantus]

12 hours ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yeah, but you think that he is sane when he talks to Szeth, right? He still supports the singers even in that moment.

No, I think the exact opposite of that.  When speaking to Szeth he is very much doubting himself and his own sense of Justice, which I believe is his expressions/symptoms of whatever magic Herald madness is at play.  I think I've articulated that as much as I can, it seems like we're going in circles now.  

 

[cometaryorbit]

20 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

  Taln's a special case in the Oathpact though.

Yeah, I kind of thought the "reversed attributes" of the Heralds were a result of abandoning the Oathpact. Not sure if that is just because they're rejecting what they once were (e.g. Ash talks about the Heralds as useless in the current situation) or something more directly magical, the warped effects of the semi-broken but not totally gone Oathpact working on them.

It is not necessarily a direct opposite though,  Nale is acting out warped Justice rather than completely rejecting the concept in the way Ash destroys art.

 

23 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 

Yes I know that? I was responding to the idea that Taln was very broken( in a real sense) and the interlude was shown as proof, but OB perpendicularity moment makes it seem like the effect of a magical madness

See, I'm not sure there is a difference. Taln *is* very broken, but it is magical (in the sense of being non-real-world, not necessarily directly powered by Investiture) because everything about a cognitive shadow is.

[Frustration]

On 12/6/2021 at 9:51 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 

Yes I know that? I was responding to the idea that Taln was very broken( in a real sense) and the interlude was shown as proof, but OB perpendicularity moment makes it seem like the effect of a magical madness

So why are you ok with the other heralds being broken in magical ways but not Taln?

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-12-06 at 5:51 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I was responding to the idea that Taln was very broken( in a real sense) and the interlude was shown as proof, but OB perpendicularity moment makes it seem like the effect of a magical madness

I want to say that nothing in my post implies, one way or the other, whether his mental state is natural or magical.

Just that he's broken.

On 2021-12-06 at 5:55 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

So if people's cognitive perception of him changed him( he is more like a spren), do you think he has the normal PTSD torture madness?

Hmm

Well, this thread is good for making me think. I've realised that our conceptions of the Heralds are likely quite different.

I think we need to differentiate three things, I don't think Herald madness equals broken-ness, nor broken-ness breaking.

Herald madness is this thing:

Quote

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

Quote

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain cognitive shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a cognitive shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are cognitive shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a cognitive shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a cognitive shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020

OK, looking at this, it seems my division of Herald stuff isn't quite accurate.

It would seem that Herald madness is moreso the manifestation of several underlying things, than its own thing.

We still have multiple factors affecting the mental states of the Heralds.

The torture, their age, and perception. At least.

All the Heralds, including Taln, are broken. The fact that they are not human anymore might just lead to them breaking in non-human ways.

In any case, the madness is not a consequence of breaking, rather of being broken.

Elantris:

Spoiler

In fact, Taln's state seems quite similar to the Hoed.

Given that we learn in RoW that spren can break from repeated trauma, in a way similar to, but distinct from, becoming a deadeye, I don't find it unreasonable that the Heralds would break in a similar way.

Let me also take the time to properly adress the OP, apologies in advance if I come accross as rude or condescending.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Just one problem. I thought he broke. I took the idea that taln broke as a fact.

I'm not finding a good point to adress this, so I'll adress it here.

Taln breaking would just mean that he was overwhelmed by the torture, that he gave in and let the Return start again.

It doesn't change the fact that Taln is thoroughly broken.

Though I suppose it somewhat cheapens him if he didn't break.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

First of all, NO HUMAN is strong enough to what Taln did.

Taln isn't a human, he's power in a human shape. 

We know that his physical abilities are superhuman, why not his mental abilities?

And I do wonder, if one manages to hold out for 100 years, how much more is another 100 years, etc? 

If your reality is just a blur of pain, and the only thing you can do is hold to a single idea, a single hope amid the pain, then why could one not hold on?

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Because 4500 years is a mind-numbingly long time!

It is, and the Heralds are ridiculously old, but Taln obviously doesn't know how long it's been, even in his moment of lucidity.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

No one should be that self-sacrificial. That is not healthy, that is insane and scary.

Good point, and it makes Taln come across as a bit off, does it not?

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But its very hard to say they deserve anything with the presence of an infallible person who has suffered so much more than them.

Huh, I don't agree at all.

For one thing, one person's suffering does not invalidate another's.

For another, Taln isn't infallible, he's self-sacrificing and stubborn to a fault.

The same thing that let him hold out for so long are also his biggest flaws. He let himself be utterly broken, rather than do anything selfish.

He's honestly maladjusted, when lucid he thanks Ash for being abandoned, for giving humanity a wonderful gift, even as she wishes that he hate her.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Dalinar deserves forgiveness and redemption(debatable).

Forgiveness, no, redemption, yes.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

All their conflicts and struggles seem melodramatic compared to the sheer amount of pain that Taln went through without making a mistake. . If the survival of humanity is the highest moral goal right now, Kaladin's life is just not priceless. It's nothing compared to Taln's  worth as an 'unbreakable' human being. Because Kaladin just can't hold the desolation back for that long.

I don't see why we have to quantify it like that.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Every character in SA has some insecurity about something, even Jasnah.

We haven't been in Taln's pov enough to know how he thinks when lucid.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Finally, he legitimises the oathpact and trivializes torture. The oathpact is a horrible plan and anything else would have been better.

I'm not sure that's true. I do agree that the Oathpact is not a good solution, but one person's choice to uphold it does not legitimise it.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

No human should be asked for that much.

From what we've seen, it seems the Heralds went to Honor, not the other way round.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

He also trivializes torture. No way around it.

The guy who vividly hallucinates that everything is on fire got through torture like it was nothing?

He even thinks that torture means life. (Though whether that's his or humanity's is unclear. Hmm.)

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

In a series with realistic depictions of battle shock, Taln sticks out like a sore thumb.

He's probably more akin to a damaged spren.

On 2021-12-03 at 6:46 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

If the ans is just that Taln is a Super Mega Alpha male chad boy with a golden heart, I will probably keep ranting about it.

That phrasing is hilariously ridiculous, lovely.

 

¤_¤

[Letryx13]

I like the fact that there was one person who wouldn't yield.  He destroyed himself in the process to do so, and it appears the supernatural element to his madness played a role in his ability to do so, but I don't think it's a bad thing.  To suggest that there really was a person, not a human but a person, that was strong enough to do what he did seems amazing to me. It's somewhat reflected in Adolin's internal monologue when he's fighting the mob in Shadesmar outside Lasting Integrity. Demonstrating the incomparable power of someone who won't ever give up. He's been destroyed more thoroughly than anyone in the series, except for maybe the deadeye spren, but in a way, that makes him all the more admirable. Humans aren't perfect, but the heralds are meant to represent ideas/ideals as much as anything. 

[ReaderAt2046]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:34 PM, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Nope, I personally think his Mind broke a long time ago in a way that was less useful to the Void forces torturing him because he became too broken of mind to muster the Intent they needed for him to Break his Oath. 

This is my theory as well. Taln was stubborn and determined enough that his mind broke before his will.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

See, I'm not sure there is a difference. Taln *is* very broken, but it is magical (in the sense of being non-real-world, not necessarily directly powered by Investiture) because everything about a cognitive shadow is.

To me the difference comes with the effort needed to 'fix' them. Each of our main characters has a loooong journey to deal with their issues and they are still not done. With Taln, someone swearing an ideal near him was enough to 'fix' him for a second. He gains lucidity in an instant and he can suddenly talk properly and have a conversation, he still cares about humanity. It's too fast for me to really think he is broken in any meaningful way.

16 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

So why are you ok with the other heralds being broken in magical ways but not Taln?

Each herald still feels broken in the real sense too ie that they clearly had a threshold of pain they could handle before giving up. To me, their problems are not just magical in nature. For example

Shalash sneers at humanity at present trying to fight, something she would probably never have done at the beginning of the Desolation. This could be the effect of her (magical)madness, but I read it like she has lost compassion for humanity and can't bring herself to care as much as she did before. Which is understandable and very human.

Nale, while talking to Szeth, tells him to not trust his judgement and advises szeth to choose on his own. This reads like a moment of self awareness from Nale to me. The old Nale would have actively fought against his madness prolly

Kalak says to Adolin that he really can't blame the spren for not choosing to bond men because he knows very well that men can break oaths, talking about himself. Kalak is feeling the normal guilt and shame, not something induced by a madness

Stormfather says Ishar curses him, humanity and then himself. God-King Tezim does not seem like a person who hates himself. But Ishar hates himself for what he did that day.

Even Jezrien thinks that it's all their fault when he talks to Dalinar

Tldr: The other nine heralds have changed a lot from what they were. Which is exactly what I wanted. They all reached the end of their determination and compassion, and that's natural in such circumstances. The main thing is that the other heralds did reach their limit, ended up betraying their friend (something they never would have have done in normal circumstances ( meaning they 'broke')) and now feel very guilty. They are broken in non magical ways too.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I want to say that nothing in my post implies, one way or the other, whether his mental state is natural or magical.

Just that he's broken.

True, I totally assumed. Oops.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Given that we learn in RoW that spren can break from repeated trauma, in a way similar to, but distinct from, becoming a deadeye, I don't find it unreasonable that the Heralds would break in a similar way.

Ooh, Where did we learn that? I don't remember this.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And I do wonder, if one manages to hold out for 100 years, how much more is another 100 years, etc? 

That logic is one of the arguments against Taln breaking to torture. My response is that time doesn't feel linear most of the time. If you are doing something boring for three hours, the second hour will feel longer than the first and the third hour will feel even longer. It doesn't really make sense then for anyone to break then.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It doesn't change the fact that Taln is thoroughly broken.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

We haven't been in Taln's pov enough to know how he thinks when lucid.

What's actually broken about Taln tho as he is right now? He is hallucinating stuff on fire, but he is mostly unchanged right? I really want more actual changes when he does become lucid.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

He's honestly maladjusted, when lucid he thanks Ash for being abandoned, for giving humanity a wonderful gift, even as she wishes that he hate her.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Good point, and it makes Taln come across as a bit off, does it not?

We seem to think that this is not normal and is very unhealthy, but this moment is happening right in the middle of the Oathbringer ending where everything is going great for the heroes. Dalinar has a big redemption arc, Kal can't say the fourth ideal but Dalinar saves him, Szeth has joined the good guys, OMG Taln is lucid now, OMG he does not hate Ash, OMG he is happy about the the betrayal, he still cares about humanity(what a champ), he feels like going towards Dalinar! Every main radiant is together in an Avengers style team up, venli is a willshaper, teft swears third ideal, kal vs amaram!!

The text doesn't treat it like a bad or unsettling thing, whereas with the other heralds the text screams at you 'THEY ARE INSANE' during their scenes.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

For one thing, one person's suffering does not invalidate another's

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't see why we have to quantify it like that.

True but Taln is the kind of hero People like Kal hurt themselves to be. Taln becomes a lot of people's way of proof of unrealistic expectations of themselves. If he can do t,hat why can't I do this smaller thing? 

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not sure that's true. I do agree that the Oathpact is not a good solution, but one person's choice to uphold it does not legitimise it.

Not talking about his choice. If humanity has a fighting chance because of Taln, the plan seems ok( cuz it actually worked) even though it's inhumane

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The guy who vividly hallucinates that everything is on fire got through torture like it was nothing?

After 4500 years of torture, and that's the only outward change? Then I would say yes.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

From what we've seen, it seems the Heralds went to Honor, not the other way round.

Still, honor agreed. And anyway, no one should ask that much of themselves, at that point that's self harm.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

He's probably more akin to a damaged spren.

Maybe. Then BS has to explicitly show that he is a spren and clearly show the difference between what a spren is and what a human is. And also show explicitly if we should treat the other heralds as spren or humans and why they broke when he didn't.

11 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I like the fact that there was one person who wouldn't yield.  He destroyed himself in the process to do so, and it appears the supernatural element to his madness played a role in his ability to do so, but I don't think it's a bad thing.  To suggest that there really was a person, not a human but a person, that was strong enough to do what he did seems amazing to me. It's somewhat reflected in Adolin's internal monologue when he's fighting the mob in Shadesmar outside Lasting Integrity. Demonstrating the incomparable power of someone who won't ever give up. He's been destroyed more thoroughly than anyone in the series, except for maybe the deadeye spren, but in a way, that makes him all the more admirable. Humans aren't perfect, but the heralds are meant to represent ideas/ideals as much as anything. 

This opinion is why I thought that my opinion was unpopular. But the lenght of time and the fact that his characters are very good depictions of mental illness makes me think that very idealistic charcters don't fit and might be harmful.

You guys all have very interesting viewpoints on this

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Each herald still feels broken in the real sense too ie that they clearly had a threshold of pain they could handle before giving up. To me, their problems are not just magical in nature. For example

Shalash sneers at humanity at present trying to fight, something she would probably never have done at the beginning of the Desolation. This could be the effect of her (magical)madness, but I read it like she has lost compassion for humanity and can't bring herself to care as much as she did before. Which is understandable and very human.

Nale, while talking to Szeth, tells him to not trust his judgement and advises szeth to choose on his own. This reads like a moment of self awareness from Nale to me. The old Nale would have actively fought against his madness prolly

Kalak says to Adolin that he really can't blame the spren for not choosing to bond men because he knows very well that men can break oaths, talking about himself. Kalak is feeling the normal guilt and shame, not something induced by a madness

Stormfather says Ishar curses him, humanity and then himself. God-King Tezim does not seem like a person who hates himself. But Ishar hates himself for what he did that day.

Even Jezrien thinks that it's all their fault when he talks to Dalinar

Tldr: The other nine heralds have changed a lot from what they were. Which is exactly what I wanted. They all reached the end of their determination and compassion, and that's natural in such circumstances. The main thing is that the other heralds did reach their limit, ended up betraying their friend (something they never would have have done in normal circumstances ( meaning they 'broke')) and now feel very guilty. They are broken in non magical ways too.

Shalash to my recollection does not sneer at humans fighting, but rather at them worshiping the heralds.

Nale tells others to question him, but refuses to question himself, that doesn't seem all that self aware.

Kalak has guilt, but not from the torture, rather because he abandoned Taln, we can see as much from the prelude, something Taln never did, so can't have guilt from.

Ishar is just plain crazy, nothing he does is even remotly natural.

I don't recall Jezrien saying anything like that so I can't respond.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

This opinion is why I thought that my opinion was unpopular. But the length of time and the fact that his characters are very good depictions of mental illness makes me think that very idealistic characters don't fit and might be harmful.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to invalidate your point.  In fact you make several valid ones.  I think a big part of the stormlight archives overall theme is that people don't have to be perfect to be amazing.  I just think having a tangible example as an ideal can also be a good thing.

[Wind Caller]

Okay. Here is my two cents on Talm:

1) I believe the reason he at least appears to be less broken than the others is simply because he was the only one who actually followed the rules of the Oathpact. 

2) The fact that Jezrien said the Oathpact was dissolved doesn't actually mean that was true. Since Talm was forced to return, he followed the rules of the Oathpact, and since at least one of them did so, the Oathpact was still in force.

3) By this logic, I think the reason the other Heralds are all insane to various degrees is (a partially due to their lengthy lifespans, but more importantly (b a direct result of ignoring the Oathpact. 

4) I agree that the perception of others gave Talm a leg up in terms of survival since he was seen as unbreakable by so many. That tracks with established Cosmere logic.

5) None of the other main flashback characters are anywhere near perfect, and I think Brandon wants to keep as little known for certain about the Heralds themselves as possible for now since they will play a larger role in the back half. 

6) Therefore, I think readers will largely continue to see Talm as perfect either until Talm's own book, or that of Shalash depending on which Brandon writes first.

7) Essentially, Talm may appear perfect now because he followed the Oathpact, but that doesn't mean readers will maintain that view once we actually learn more about him from those who know him well.

8) If this logic holds, I have no problem with Talm's current characterization since I believe the events of the back half are bound to (a  give readers more information, and (b Set Talm off on his own evolving character arc. Sanderson has earned my trust more than any other author, so I have confidence that I'll enjoy the end result, even if it doesn't follow this train of thought

Apologies if none of these thoughts are original. I didn't look at the full thread prior to responding, just the initial post. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Shalash to my recollection does not sneer at humans fighting, but rather at them worshiping the heralds.

Nale tells others to question him, but refuses to question himself, that doesn't seem all that self aware.

Kalak has guilt, but not from the torture, rather because he abandoned Taln, we can see as much from the prelude, something Taln never did, so can't have guilt from.

Ishar is just plain crazy, nothing he does is even remotly natural.

I don't recall Jezrien saying anything like that so I can't respond.

That's not how I read those scenes, but I can see that. So do you think if we fixed their illnesses ( like there is a bondsmith swearing an ideal every second for the rest of eternity) do you think the heralds would be completely okay? Like small changes but mostly the same person? My headcannon was more like at first heralds were very honrable, the torture slowly reveals their insecurities one by one, after they abandon the oathpact they get magical madnesses which feed on said insecurities and magically magnify them. 

Shallan and lightweavers( elhokar seem like they generally struggle with self hatred and shalash's madness seems like a manifestation of her own self hatred( she destroys only her face right)

Jezrien seems like teft and kal mixed with their flaws more magnified

Point is, I feel like heralds are human and understandable even if they are superhuman and they have really wierd illnesses

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm sorry, I don't mean to invalidate your point.  In fact you make several valid ones.  I think a big part of the stormlight archives overall theme is that people don't have to be perfect to be amazing.  I just think having a tangible example as an ideal can also be a good thing.

We are just having a friendly discussion, you don't need to apologise for anything. No one's trying to invalidate anyone.

I think it gets harder to put reasonable limits on yourself when you have an example of someone seemingly limitless. But maybe that is a part of the story that Brandon wants to tell

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

That's not how I read those scenes, but I can see that. So do you think if we fixed their illnesses ( like there is a bondsmith swearing an ideal every second for the rest of eternity) do you think the heralds would be completely okay? Like small changes but mostly the same person? 

yep

7 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Shallan and lightweavers( elhokar seem like they generally struggle with self hatred and shalash's madness seems like a manifestation of her own self hatred( she destroys only her face right)

She destroys all Heralds, but targets herself in particular

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

We are just having a friendly discussion, you don't need to apologise for anything. No one's trying to invalidate anyone.

I think it gets harder to put reasonable limits on yourself when you have an example of someone seemingly limitless. But maybe that is a part of the story that Brandon wants to tell

I get what you mean. You can't say everybody makes mistakes, when there actually is someone who never does make a mistake.

[cometaryorbit]

16 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

To me the difference comes with the effort needed to 'fix' them. Each of our main characters has a loooong journey to deal with their issues and they are still not done. With Taln, someone swearing an ideal near him was enough to 'fix' him for a second. He gains lucidity in an instant and he can suddenly talk properly and have a conversation, he still cares about humanity. It's too fast for me to really think he is broken in any meaningful way.

Sure, but the characters who deal with their issues in a human way keep that personal growth. Taln's moments of lucidity go away quickly. I don't think anything was really fixed so much as the damage was bypassed - the symptoms were suppressed momentarily but the underlying problem remains.

Quote

Still, honor agreed. And anyway, no one should ask that much of themselves, at that point that's self harm.

 

The way the Stormfather describes it, it sounds like the fact that the Heralds could be coerced to bend their oath was not considered by either them or Honor at the time - the Fused and/or Odium discovered that would work after-the-fact.

So I don't think either Honor or the Heralds expected the Heralds to be tortured at the time the Oathpact was agreed upon.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

yep

That's super interesting because my reading was totally different. To me the madnesses are very similar to The Thrill. The Thrill artificially increases his blood lust but it was still his choice to give into it. He still had the choice to stop every step of the way. Odium says that he made Dalinar do it, but Dalinar rejects that saying that no he burned those children, he killed his wife and 'you cannot have my pain'. Same thing with teft, saying the oaths did not make the urges go away but now he chooses not to relapse and decides to care about himself again. Actually, same thing with kal and many other radiants

If the heralds were similar to how they used to be before the oathpact ( probably amazing people), then they would be able to resist the madnesses. That's my take anyway. That's why the other heralds don't bother me as much even if they are superhuman. Because they seem to have problems beyond the madnesses

[cometaryorbit]

I agree the other Heralds seem more like insane humans.

But I think that actually makes sense, given something like the following logic:

The Heralds were all humans who became Cognitive Shadows.

Over time, or possibly by multiple deaths and rebirths, a Cognitive Shadow (Herald or Fused, at least*) becomes more like a spren, more unchanging and more a reflection of an ideal. Their original personality erodes or becomes simplified, more archetypal.

But by breaking the Oathpact, the other nine Heralds broke away from their "ideals". And they stopped dying. So that process largely stopped for them.

Their souls are "worn thin", as the Stormfather says, from the previous cycles of Desolations. They're definitely broken. But Taln is 4500 years farther along the process. Outside moments of lucidity, he's less "functional" than the others -- but he's also much more of an archetype than they are.  He has broken, but maybe can't at this point bend his oath.

 

*we haven't, IIRC, seen any other cognitive shadows nearly old enough, except the Stormfather, who is also a spren. Vasher is several centuries old, but nothing on the Herald/Fused scale; Kelsier we've only seen a few years in; Threnodite Shades aren't really intelligent...

Edited December 9, 2021 by cometaryorbit
other cognitive shadows

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

To me the difference comes with the effort needed to 'fix' them. Each of our main characters has a loooong journey to deal with their issues and they are still not done. With Taln, someone swearing an ideal near him was enough to 'fix' him for a second. He gains lucidity in an instant and he can suddenly talk properly and have a conversation, he still cares about humanity. It's too fast for me to really think he is broken in any meaningful way.

I think that this is acceptable as a magical effect, especially post-RoW. Ishar drops the fact that people see clearer when a Radiant swears an Ideal:

Quote

"I can see clearly," the voice said from within the perpendicularity. "O do not know why. Has a new Bondsmith been sworn? We have a Connection, all of us . . . Nevertheless, I feel my sanity slipping. My mind is broken, and I do not know if it can be healed."

"Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm."

-RoW, chapter 111

This is said as being because the Radiant touches the Spiritual, and Taln's moment of lucidity was attached to an instance when at least two Ideals were sworn (Dalinar and Szeth), as well as Dalinar uniting the Realms.

The Spiritual is almost the same as the Physical at this time.

The sequence of events is this:

Quote

UNITE THEM!

Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought.

He thrust his right hand to the the other side, touching something vast, soemthing that wasn't a place—it was all places in one. He'd seen this before, in the moment when Odium had let him glimpse the Spiritual Realm.

Today he held it in his hand.

[...]

Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning.

"I am Unity."

He slammed both hands together.

And combined three realms into one.

[Kaladin pov]

[Ash pov with lucid Taln]

-Oathbringer, chapter 119

Except for the short Kaladin pov, Taln's lucidity comes immediately after Dalinar unites the Realms.

If someone just touching the Spiritual is enough to make people see more clearly, can't we expect someone grabbing it and overlapping it with the other Realms to do the same, but much more?

We can even see that the Realms are still touching later:

Quote

Jasnah stepped over a corpse. Her Blade vanished in a puff of Stormlight, and Ivory appeared next to her, his oily black features concerned as he regarded the sky. "This place is three, still," he said. "Almost three."

"Or three places are nearly one," Jasnah replied. Another batch of gloryspren flocked past, and she could see them as they were in the Cognitive Realm: like strange avians with long wings, and a golden sphere in place of the head. Well, being able to see into the Cognitive Realm without trying was one of the least unnerving things that had happened so far today.

-Oathbringer, chapter 120

I think this implies a fairly major effect, so Taln snapping back to lucidity from being basically insensate isn't that strange.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Each herald still feels broken in the real sense too ie that they clearly had a threshold of pain they could handle before giving up. To me, their problems are not just magical in nature.

I actually think the millennia of torture may be what makes the difference here.

Kalak is exhausted and talks about how he doesn't remember, Ash admits to losing long stretches of time. Part of the problem for the other Heralds is existing for so long, sensory imput, memories and all. Taln probably only has torture for the last four-and-a-half thousand years, not any varied imput or experience.

The other nine are exhausted in a way Taln isn't, but Taln is far more worn down, as he just held out.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Ooh, Where did we learn that? I don't remember this.

It's in the Shadesmar sequence:

Quote

They'd stopped in a large circle, surrounding something at their center. Adolin gritted his teeth and guided Gallant with his knees to charge in close so he could survey better. Spren had been . . . cagey about whether they could be killed in Shadesmar. He'd seen them carry weapons, and during his earlier trip, Notum's sailors had admitted that spren could be cut and feel pain. "Killing" them involved hurting them so much that their minds broke and they became something akin to a deadeye.

-RoW, chapter 35

Quote

"Do you know this Cryptic?" Amuna demanded from the steps.

"If it's the same one I saw when I first landed on these shores," Adolin said, "then no. I just saw them once, in the market where the caravans cross."

"You know here story?"

"I . . . Yes, I was told it by a shopkeeper."

"She was killed only a few years ago," Amuna said. "This is proof of your lies. Modern Radiants cannot be trusted."

"There is no evidence that a Radiant did this," Adolin said. "We encountered humans—who have nothing to do with my people—who attacked Notum. Perhaps they attacked her."

"That kind of attack leaves a spren who can eventually be healed, with enough Stormlight," Amuna said. "The only true death for a spren—the only way to create a deadeye—is through broken Radiant oaths."

-RoW, chapter 90

And as the Heralds (and Cognitive Shadows in general) are compared to spren, it isn't out of the question that they would break in a similar way.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

My response is that time doesn't feel linear most of the time. If you are doing something boring for three hours, the second hour will feel longer than the first and the third hour will feel even longer.

That's fair.

I will say that I don't know a ton about torture or the exact effects of torture on psychology.

I still find it "reasonable" that Taln managed to hold out, he's known to have achieved impossible victories at the cost of his own life. This could be seen as that idea taken to an extreme.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What's actually broken about Taln tho as he is right now? He is hallucinating stuff on fire, but he is mostly unchanged right?

Seeing as we've never seen Taln before the modern day, we really can't say what he was or wasn't like as a person. Other than what we've heard from others.

His mind is also... off... what with "torture sublime, for life it meant." Unless that's meant to mean life for Roshar. Though that is still an unhealthy attitude.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The text doesn't treat it like a bad or unsettling thing, whereas with the other heralds the text screams at you 'THEY ARE INSANE' during their scenes.

Ah

I think that presenting the moment as positive (turns out there's a way to help the Heralds) doesn't mean that what happens in the moment is positive when examined. Look at how Ash reacts.

In fact, I could see self-sacrifice being Taln's madness, just as Nale's legal madness and Ishar's god complex.

On which note, Kalak doesn't feel insane to me, just flippant and snarky. At least when he's not being anxiety in human form, but even then, that's not insanity. He's also 110% done with the fight against Odium and is exhausted and disillusioned and wants out.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

True but Taln is the kind of hero People like Kal hurt themselves to be. Taln becomes a lot of people's way of proof of unrealistic expectations of themselves. If he can do t,hat why can't I do this smaller thing? 

Ooof, right in the mental health.

Yeah, that I can fully agree with, Taln can easily become a problematic symbol in-world.

Someone needs to make sure Kaladin never learns of this...

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Not talking about his choice. If humanity has a fighting chance because of Taln, the plan seems ok( cuz it actually worked) even though it's inhumane

Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond to this.

I don't think something working automatically justifies that thing.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

After 4500 years of torture, and that's the only outward change? Then I would say yes.

I mean, there's also the fact that he barely registers the world around him and isn't functional.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Still, honor agreed. And anyway, no one should ask that much of themselves, at that point that's self harm.

As has been pointed out, it seems no-one expected the Heralds to be able to break.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Then BS has to explicitly show that he is a spren and clearly show the difference between what a spren is and what a human is.

Fair enough, though as RoW is the first book to make this connection explicit, and coming off the first that properly establishes the "killing" of spren, we haven't had the information to work from before.

Also, there's been so little focus on the Heralds over all.

On 2021-12-08 at 10:42 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

And also show explicitly if we should treat the other heralds as spren or humans and why they broke when he didn't.

If we should treat one as a spren we should treat all as spren.

The fact that the Heralds can be captured in gems (though the don't survive it) is evidence that they're spren-adjacent.

Question, is your problem that Taln never gave in, or broke, or that he isn't broken? Because I might have misunderstood what you took umbrage with and argued against a position that you don't actually hold.

In any case, they gave in to the torture and he didn't, for whatever reason. He stubbornly held out and was basically worn into nothing, they gave in before that point, but were worn thin.

I do like the idea that he was worn down to the point that he basically couldn't give in.

On 2021-12-08 at 3:40 PM, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Shalash to my recollection does not sneer at humans fighting, but rather at them worshiping the heralds.

There's this, which might read that way:

Quote

Jasnah nodded, showing no sign of annoyance. "But the Oathpact no longer functions?"

"It's broken," Ash said. "Done, shattered, upended. They killed my father a year ago. Permanently, somehow. We all felt it." She looked directly at Navani, as if having seen the reverence in her eyes. The next words came with a sneer. "We can do nothing for you now. There is no more Oathpact."

-RoW, chapter 17

Depending on exactly what we're meant to read into the last part.

Though I will agree that she doesn't directly diparage humanity fighting Odium.

 

¤_¤

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

There's this, which might read that way:

-RoW, chapter 17

Depending on exactly what we're meant to read into the last part.

Though I will agree that she doesn't directly diparage humanity fighting Odium.

I would focus more on the We part there, We[the Heralds] can do nothing for you, don't worship us, we are useless. kind of deal.

[Sp00ks]

I do agree that from a story telling perspective, Taln breaking eventually would have been better. Just makes him seem somehow more heroic and real that way. 

But, I imagine Brandon will say something like "he wasn't able to give up because of his spiritual madness" or something. I very much dislike this, but it at least sorta makes sense. It relates to his reputation of fighting hopeless battles, much like Nales madness relates to his following of the law

[cometaryorbit]

It's not entirely clear to me what did happen with Taln. One of the Diagram epigraphs says "The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack", and this must be Taln, the Stoneward Herald. And he did return to Roshar, but "late" - whatever that means.

I suppose it is possible that once the Everstorm bypassed the Oathpact, then Taln 'gave up' in some sense - but not exactly 'broke' since he knew at this point that his suffering was no longer protecting Roshar from anything?