Infinate Energy, Perpetual Motion, and why Raysium is more important than you think.

[Frustration Unmade]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

This contradicts what we've seen. Spren change based on changing perception. If perception in the future mattered the same amount as perception in the present and past, then perception wouldn't matter, because over infinite time there would be infinite different perceptions.

Spren change, functions do not.

Empty space in the CR will not exist even when people think about it and have a greater understanding of it.

[Nameless Tarachin Superstar]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Spren change, functions do not.

Empty space in the CR will not exist even when people think about it and have a greater understanding of it.

We don't know that. In fact, why would you need ftl travel when you have the cognitive realm? it would be completely useless.

[Frustration Unmade]

35 minutes ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that. In fact, why would you need ftl travel when you have the cognitive realm? it would be completely useless.

You still have to cross multiple planets.

Take ours for example, 24,000 miles to get to another world. Also it's pretty difficult to get there, especially when you want to bring a lot of stuff.

 

I have a WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

In the Cosmere, as space becomes more developed...*inaudible* outer space.

Brandon Sanderson

It's an interesting question that I've had to ponder. Would the space race happen more slowly because there's an alternative, or would it happen more quickly because you know other planets are inhabited. I'm not going to answer what I came up with, because it's a plot point in the books. So I'll give you a RAFO card, but that's the question to ask yourself.

Questioner

That wasn't my question! My question was, in the Cognitive Realm, with the gap between planets...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh! Will the gap between planets get larger as more people travel in between it. So, barring things like space stations, there's going to be so few minds in between, that I don't expect space to become larger because of that.

I don't expect it to be a factor, except--barring--there will be possibilities of certain regions popping up.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 and

SotD 2

Spoiler

How is Dusk going to get to another world if space is in actual size?

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[Nameless Tarachin Superstar]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

You still have to cross multiple planets.

Take ours for example, 24,000 miles to get to another world. Also it's pretty difficult to get there, especially when you want to bring a lot of stuff.

 

I have a WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In the Cosmere, as space becomes more developed...*inaudible* outer space.

Brandon Sanderson

It's an interesting question that I've had to ponder. Would the space race happen more slowly because there's an alternative, or would it happen more quickly because you know other planets are inhabited. I'm not going to answer what I came up with, because it's a plot point in the books. So I'll give you a RAFO card, but that's the question to ask yourself.

Questioner

That wasn't my question! My question was, in the Cognitive Realm, with the gap between planets...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh! Will the gap between planets get larger as more people travel in between it. So, barring things like space stations, there's going to be so few minds in between, that I don't expect space to become larger because of that.

I don't expect it to be a factor, except--barring--there will be possibilities of certain regions popping up.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 and

SotD 2

  Reveal hidden contents

How is Dusk going to get to another world if space is in actual size?

 

Well, that first WoB says that the cognitive realm won't change because there won't be any minds in space to perceive it, and parts of the cognitive will change and expand. So not only is it useless, to your point that some kinds of perception are timeless, it also proves that perception is bound by space. If space, then why not time?

[Frustration Unmade]

19 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, that first WoB says that the cognitive realm won't change because there won't be any minds in space to perceive it, and parts of the cognitive will change and expand. So not only is it useless, to your point that some kinds of perception are timeless, it also proves that perception is bound by space. If space, then why not time?

The CR is bound by space, the SR is not.

Which realm do Conjoined fabrials operate under?

[Oltux72 Gerontarch]

On 24.11.2021 at 5:25 AM, Ookla the Frustrated said:

If I push on the smaller gem with X newtons the larger one receives X/5 newtons

I am afraid you are approaching this fundamentally wrong. These new fabrials change distances, not forces or energy.

In al this discussions please remember that moving an object does not take energy or force. Acceleration does.

 

 

[Inquisitor #5 Ferring]

So, I've not read the entire thread, so excuse me if I end up retreading covered ground.

So, standard conjoined gems gives you two objects that act as one. If each half weighs 5 grams, lifting one requires work equivalent to lifting a single ≈10 gram object. The effective mass is is M1 + M2 + Md, that is mass of gem one plus mass of gem two plus effective mass from decay, depending on distance.

We know that force is transferred between gems, nothing is being added to the system. My understanding is, post RoW, that work is split evenly between the conjoined gems. 

Thus, for a standard conjoiner, doing the work to move 5g 2 metres, will move the conjoiner 1m.

Working off this, I see no reason to assume that the underlying mechanics are any different once you start messing with the proportions.

Same basic principles, work is trasferred, nothing is added, and work is split evenly between the gems.

Say then that you have a 5g and a 25g gem. Their effective mass is ≈30g. Doing enough work to move 25g 2m moves the larger gem one metre, and the smaller gem, having the same amount of work done to it, five metres.

Both halves of the pair experience the same amount of work, but the distance they move are inversely proportional to their masses.

They are a magical pulley, simply a way to exchange work with distance, albeit a very compact one.

Assuming my interpretation to be correct, the posited device couldn't work, there's no additional force working on the second gem. They'd simply get stuck in an equilibrium.

In fact, if the device was built from perfect, indestructible materials, it makes an immovable object, as neither gem could move without moving the other a different distance, which it can't do without the materials being able to give.

I know I've disagreed with @Ookla the Frustrated on this before, and I stand by what I said then.

If the interpretation that energy is added to the system is true, it still can not work.

If the larger gem can pull the smaller forward, this means that they try to move at different speeds, otherwise the larger gem can not experience a pull. 

If this is true, each gem accelerates the other in a feedback loop. This means that materials that are not arbitrarily durable will break under the stress. As far as we know, the "entanglement" of the gems is absolute, it can not break through material stress.

We then have three points of failure, the integrity of the gems, the fabrial cage, and the physical link between the gems.

If the mounting doesn't give, the gems either crack simply from physical stress or at least one shoots out of its cage, decoupling the device.

If the cages can't give, the gems break or the mounting rips apart.

If the gems can't give, at least one rips free of its cage or the mounting rips apart.

If none of the materials give, then infinite energy is required to start it.

And even if these were solvable problems, assuming that Stormlight adds power to the system, the consumption should increase the faster it goes, to the point that Dalinar with bronze Compounding riding it, holding the Perpendicularity open forever would not be a sufficient fuel source.

I also fail to see how this could be the case, as we know that work is transferred between standard conjoiners, rather than energy added to the system. You'd expect to only have to do the work to move half the mass of the conjoined gems in that case. So the difference in mass can not work on the same principles if energy is added into the system.

 

As for the question of what the point would be if energy wasn't added to the system, it allows one to use space efficiently, for one.

Part of the problem with the Fourth Bridge is that they can only feasably have a few such ships.

If you can shrink the ground lattice to one hundreth (or whatever) the size, you can have a lot more lattices moving at the same time, as well as being able to fly far further without having to disjoin the lattice and turn around.

Or, with a few advances, you could take something like this:

Spoiler

Which translates rotation into linear motion. (I think, might have the wrong terminology.)

The Rosharans can theoretically make steam engines. Or Soulcast steam turbines, if you're feeling spicy.

This can translate Stormlight into work, boiling the water using heatrials. 

So if you then set up an exchanger between rotation and linear motion, with a conjoiner on one end and a reverser on the other end, where the motion triggers the disjoining of the gems in turn, you can drive whatever is attached to the fabrials forward on both the forward and backward motion, assuming that the planes are isolated.

Pair this with the unequal paired fabrials, and you can drive something forward very fast withouth having to have a lot of motion on the driving end.

The fact that you can exchange work and distance also leads to being able to save time as well as space.

If you can move the lattice at the same speed as with equal conjoiners, what you're moving will cover more distance over the same time.

So there are lots of uses for it, even if energy isn't added to the system.

 

 

¤_¤

[Frustration Unmade]

I would like to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread, you have made alternative reasons for Different sized conjoined gems, seem if not plausible, possible.

I still find the proposed solutions unsatisfactory, but there is nothing left to do but wait and see.

[drunkenbotanist Awakened Object]

On 11/23/2021 at 0:59 PM, Ookla the unintelligible said:

I don't think that is the idea, actually. I think the idea is to add "gears" to conjoined fabrial creations. Since no force is created out of thin air, moving the fourth bridge would take basically the same amount of force to move the same speed. While they could decrease the area of the gemstones being pulled, it wouldn't be a huge advantadge if they continued to use chulls. However, they won't continue to use chulls. They will use gravity, like with Kaladin's glove. Only, instead of the maximum acceleration being limited to the acceleration of gravity, and the mininum acceleration being controlled by slowing the fall of the gemstones, the maximum speed will be capped by the size of the gemstones they can find, and the minimum speed will be controlled by having smaller gemstones falling. That makes  than conjoined fabrials somehow switching from movement conservation across distances to stormlight to kinetic energy converters. We already have lashings for that.

I definitely agree with this, it makes devices possible and portable instead of needing a plateau worth of chulls

[Frustration Unmade]

I'm going to shamelessly necro this thread, for I have found a sloution.

@Nameless you had an interpretation of conjoined gems that not only worked with what we had seen, but didn't allow my perpetual motion machine to work. Little did you know the amount of time I was willing to dedicate to this. So I made a perpetual motion machine using you proposed version of fabrial mechanics.

I give you Frustration's Apparatus!

First set up two pulleys, the second one must be longer than the first.

Now, on Pulley 1, attatch two gems, Gem A which is five times as large as its counterpart gem a. And gem B, which is the same size as gem b. Both are attatched to the same side and are amythist.

On Pulley 2 attatch gems a, b, and C. C is where energy leaves the system, and is the only ruby.

LIke so:

Spoiler

The system works by dropping pulley 1, while only gems A and a are conjoined, which will bring pulley 2 up five times the distance. Fabrial clocks which were premade to calculate time then deconjoin gem A and a, and conjoin gem C for 4/5 of the fall. At which point gem C will be disconjoined and gems B and b will be conjoined. With gems B and b conjoined, the system will be brought back to it's starting point and it can be repeated. Netting you 4/5 of the energy of the fall of pulley 2 every rotation.

Edited 8 hours ago by Frustration

[Morningtide Envisager]

...Wow. I am extremely impressed. 

[Frustration Unmade]

28 minutes ago, Morningtide said:

...Wow. I am extremely impressed. 

Thank you, I spent a lot of time putting it together. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[Ta'veren Kaladin Babsk]

Here's a challenge for one of you who's been following this thread and or has time to go back through this thread, AND has the time and ability to create a computer program.

Make a physics simulator to test whether this would actually work.

[Anomander Rake Hazekiller]

@Frustration will give this a proper physics look over after work today.

In the meanwhile i highly recommend editing your post with some clearer nomenclature - calling the pulley systems something other than system A and B (even just system 1 and system 2) makes it a lot easier to follow

[Frustration Unmade]

10 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

@Frustration will give this a proper physics look over after work today.

In the meanwhile i highly recommend editing your post with some clearer nomenclature - calling the pulley systems something other than system A and B (even just system 1 and system 2) makes it a lot easier to follow

That would be smarter I will do that.