Ookla the Frustrated

Infinate Energy, Perpetual Motion, and why Raysium is more important than you think.

58 posts in this topic

So in RoW we see that Raysium can allow for Conjoined gems to be of different sizes. The difference in sizes will multiply the force that the smaller gem receives.

This is huge, as it allows for some really broken things you can do with Fabrials.

 

Let's say we take a fabrial that looks like this

Spoiler

updC5094w05iProiPIt6BrCQS3eoBE8uj6CwgCc8tU7NAz7hMQJJd7XK4njZox21loP9CttgVvuKoO4qiyOFUaRwZbvRZDsUOMMTW_DgRbrsQTKPEpUZ1zy9tqGbLFivFvdMZJpX

So let's say Gem A is 1/5 the mass of the entire Fabrial, and 5 times the size of gem B.

If a human pushes the Fabrial forward with X amount of force, Gem A will have X/5 amount of force as it is 1/5 of the fabrial, and it will then give X amount of force to Gem B as it is five times the size. This enables the Gem B to pull the fabrial forward with X amount of force starting the process all over agian. To beat out air resistance simply having Gem B as 1/6 the size of Gem A and we have acheived perpetual motion.

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Wondering if Navani could use this in moving the Fourth Bridge in book 5. That'd be pretty interesting, although it would complicate things in regards to stopping the Fourth Bridge so... maybe not. But this makes my brain hurt, and I can just barely comprehend it with my small teenage mind, so I'm going to say it's wack and uses physics.

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

So in RoW we see that Raysium can allow for Conjoined gems to be of different sizes. The difference in sizes will multiply the force that the smaller gem receives.

This is huge, as it allows for some really broken things you can do with Fabrials.

 

Let's say we take a fabrial that looks like this

  Hide contents

updC5094w05iProiPIt6BrCQS3eoBE8uj6CwgCc8tU7NAz7hMQJJd7XK4njZox21loP9CttgVvuKoO4qiyOFUaRwZbvRZDsUOMMTW_DgRbrsQTKPEpUZ1zy9tqGbLFivFvdMZJpX

So let's say Gem A is 1/5 the mass of the entire Fabrial, and 5 times the size of gem B.

If a human pushes the Fabrial forward with X amount of force, Gem A will have X/5 amount of force as it is 1/5 of the fabrial, and it will then give X amount of force to Gem B as it is five times the size. This enables the Gem B to pull the fabrial forward with X amount of force starting the process all over agian. To beat out air resistance simply having Gem B as 1/6 the size of Gem A and we have acheived perpetual motion.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. The gemstones impart an equal force on each other. The size difference leads to different speeds, as it takes a larger amount of energy to move a larger gemstone at a certain velocity. Force = Mass * Acceleration. say gemstone A is imparted with 15 newtons of force, and has a mass of 5 kg, meaning it accelerates at 3 meters per second. 15N = 5kg * 3meters/second^2. The smaller gemstone then has 15 Newtons of energy imparted to it, and it has a mass of 1 kg. The equation then comes out to 15N = 1kg * 15meters/second^2. 5 times the speed, but the same amount of force.

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Some gut instinct of mine says there's going to be some sort of push-back that causes the fabrial to stop once it's no longer being exerted on by external forces other than gravity. We saw in Dawnshard that conjoiners and perception have some very strange interactions with regards to "regular physics", so... Some caveat we haven't seen yet is going to prevent this.

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6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. The gemstones impart an equal force on each other. The size difference leads to different speeds, as it takes a larger amount of energy to move a larger gemstone at a certain velocity. Force = Mass * Acceleration. say gemstone A is imparted with 15 newtons of force, and has a mass of 5 kg, meaning it accelerates at 3 meters per second. 15N = 5kg * 3meters/second^2. The smaller gemstone then has 15 Newtons of energy imparted to it, and it has a mass of 1 kg. The equation then comes out to 15N = 1kg * 15meters/second^2. 5 times the speed, but the same amount of force.

If that's the case what's the point of it existing at all? That makes it no different than if it was just a standard conjoined gem.

5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Some gut instinct of mine says there's going to be some sort of push-back that causes the fabrial to stop once it's no longer being exerted on by external forces other than gravity. We saw in Dawnshard that conjoiners and perception have some very strange interactions with regards to "regular physics", so... Some caveat we haven't seen yet is going to prevent this.

Why do you say that?

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why do you say that?

It... Something about this setup feels like you're just pulling on two ends of a string and expecting it to move in a preferred direction. The two gems move as one, but... The force on one is magnified, so... Gaaaaah, my brain!!! :(

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Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

It... Something about this setup feels like you're just pulling on two ends of a string and expecting it to move in a preferred direction. The two gems move as one, but... The force on one is magnified, so... Gaaaaah, my brain!!! :(

It's weird. Complely boggles my mind. I had to work it out in my own head three times today.

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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If that's the case what's the point of it existing at all? That makes it no different than if it was just a standard conjoined gem.

The speed can be multiplied. For example, Navani could make the glove thing that Kaladin used fly at more than the speed of gravity.

4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

It... Something about this setup feels like you're just pulling on two ends of a string and expecting it to move in a preferred direction. The two gems move as one, but... The force on one is magnified, so... Gaaaaah, my brain!!! :(

Force is not magnified. That goes against basic conjoined fabrial mechanics. Right after inventing it, Raboniel mentions force multiplication, but Navani says that energy will likely be conserved.

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3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The speed can be multiplied. For example, Navani could make the glove thing that Kaladin used fly at more than the speed of gravity.

But if force is the same you will lose that speed moving on object larger than the gem

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Force is not magnified. That goes against basic conjoined fabrial mechanics. Right after inventing it, Raboniel mentions force multiplication, but Navani says that energy will likely be conserved.

If force were the same wouldn't the gem have moved the same distance but the energy required to move it be less?

You have to put in the energy to move both objects, and as Navani was basically only using the gems it should have acted like one object.

Edited by Frustration
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Just now, Frustration said:

But if force is the same you will lose that speed moving on object larger than the gem

If the mass is different, the same amount of force will result in different speeds. If a gemstone is accelerating at 9.8m/sec^2, as by earth gravity, and is joined to a gemstone that is half the size, the smaller gemstone will accelerate twice as fast, at 19.6m/sec^2.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If force were the same wouldn't the gem have moved the same distance but the energy required to move it be less?

You have to put in the energy to move both objects, and as Navani was basically only using the gems it should have acted like one object.

No, because energy and speed are completely different. If two conjoined gemstones of the same size have a mass 5 grams each, then lifting the one of them would feel like lifting a mass of 10 grams. If two conjoined gemstones are different masses, for example if one was 10 grams and the other 30 grams, then you would expect lifting one of them to feel like lifting 40 grams. However, if you life the gem that weighs 30 grams, it will feel like 60 grams. Likewise, if you lift the one that feels like 10 grams, it will feel like lifting 20 grams. Basically, if you put X force into one of the gemstones, it send X/2 force to the other one, and because of the size difference, that force results in the smaller gemstone moving much more than the larger one.

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5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If the mass is different, the same amount of force will result in different speeds. If a gemstone is accelerating at 9.8m/sec^2, as by earth gravity, and is joined to a gemstone that is half the size, the smaller gemstone will accelerate twice as fast, at 19.6m/sec^2.

And if you were to use that in Fourth bridge what difference would it make?

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No, because energy and speed are completely different. If two conjoined gemstones of the same size have a mass 5 grams each, then lifting the one of them would feel like lifting a mass of 10 grams. If two conjoined gemstones are different masses, for example if one was 10 grams and the other 30 grams, then you would expect lifting one of them to feel like lifting 40 grams. However, if you life the gem that weighs 30 grams, it will feel like 60 grams. Likewise, if you lift the one that feels like 10 grams, it will feel like lifting 20 grams. Basically, if you put X force into one of the gemstones, it send X/2 force to the other one, and because of the size difference, that force results in the smaller gemstone moving much more than the larger one.

Where did you get that from? Why would it not be 40 grams reguardless of the one you lift?

If I have two gems weighing 5 grams, and one of them is connected to a weight of 40 grams, when I lift a gem it will feel like I'm lifting 50 grams reguardless of which one I pick up.

Edited by Frustration
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Just now, Frustration said:

And if you were to use that in Fourth bridge what difference would it make?

Not much of one, because they are using chulls to pull the gemstones. The chulls would be forced to pull more slowly, leading to about the same result. Although they could add more chulls.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where did you get that from Why would it not be 40 grams reguardless of the one you lift?

If I have two gems weighing 5 grams, and one of them is connected to a weight of 40 grams, when I lift a gem it will feel like I'm lifting 50 grams reguardless of which one I pick up.

If you exert force on a small gemstone (5g), half of that force is put onto the big gemstone (40g). Because your force is being halved, you have to exert enough force to move 10g in order to move the small gemstone. Likewise, if you exert force on the 40g gemstone, half of that energy is given to the other gemstone, meaning that in order to move the big gemstone, you must exert enough force to move 80g. Here is what appears to be the conjoined fabrial equation: force exerted/2 = force on gemstone. Each gemstone gets half of the force you put on one of the gemstones. Normally, the gemstones are almost exactly the same mass, so they move almost exactly the same amount, but with larger gemstones and smaller gemstones, the smaller gemstone will move more than the larger gemstone, because it takes more force to move the larger gemstone.

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...did you steal Tom Scott's video on perpetual motion but changed "bombs" to "raysium"?

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33 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Not much of one, because they are using chulls to pull the gemstones. The chulls would be forced to pull more slowly, leading to about the same result. Although they could add more chulls.

If you exert force on a small gemstone (5g), half of that force is put onto the big gemstone (40g). Because your force is being halved, you have to exert enough force to move 10g in order to move the small gemstone. Likewise, if you exert force on the 40g gemstone, half of that energy is given to the other gemstone, meaning that in order to move the big gemstone, you must exert enough force to move 80g. Here is what appears to be the conjoined fabrial equation: force exerted/2 = force on gemstone. Each gemstone gets half of the force you put on one of the gemstones. Normally, the gemstones are almost exactly the same mass, so they move almost exactly the same amount, but with larger gemstones and smaller gemstones, the smaller gemstone will move more than the larger gemstone, because it takes more force to move the larger gemstone.

This is not noted in the books, you only need to add enough force to move an object, not twice it's weight.

32 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

...did you steal Tom Scott's video on perpetual motion but changed "bombs" to "raysium"?

No, I have not seen that, might take a look now though.

EDIT: I have now seen it, very good video, would recommend.

Edited by Frustration
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8 hours ago, Frustration said:

This is not noted in the books, you only need to add enough force to move an object, not twice it's weight.

If it does not multiply force, which would go against every other example of conjoined fabrial mechanics, then this is just about the only explanation that makes sense, and is consistent with normal conjoined fabrials.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

If it does not multiply force, which would go against every other example of conjoined fabrial mechanics, then this is just about the only explanation that makes sense, and is consistent with normal conjoined fabrials.

It des if it treats them as the same object.

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14 hours ago, Frustration said:

So in RoW we see that Raysium can allow for Conjoined gems to be of different sizes. The difference in sizes will multiply the force that the smaller gem receives.

This is huge, as it allows for some really broken things you can do with Fabrials.

 

Let's say we take a fabrial that looks like this

  Reveal hidden contents

updC5094w05iProiPIt6BrCQS3eoBE8uj6CwgCc8tU7NAz7hMQJJd7XK4njZox21loP9CttgVvuKoO4qiyOFUaRwZbvRZDsUOMMTW_DgRbrsQTKPEpUZ1zy9tqGbLFivFvdMZJpX

So let's say Gem A is 1/5 the mass of the entire Fabrial, and 5 times the size of gem B.

If a human pushes the Fabrial forward with X amount of force, Gem A will have X/5 amount of force as it is 1/5 of the fabrial, and it will then give X amount of force to Gem B as it is five times the size. This enables the Gem B to pull the fabrial forward with X amount of force starting the process all over agian. To beat out air resistance simply having Gem B as 1/6 the size of Gem A and we have acheived perpetual motion.

Wow. Impressive! I'm not entirely sure I'm a good source for whether this is true or not, but it seems accurate to me! 

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It des if it treats them as the same object.

Exactly. It treats the two conjoined gemstones as one identical object, even when they are different in size.

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4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Exactly. It treats the two conjoined gemstones as one identical object, even when they are different in size.

So there must be force multiplication otherwise the only change would be the decreased energy required to move the object, not the distance moved.

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26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So there must be force multiplication otherwise the only change would be the decreased energy required to move the object, not the distance moved.

Well, there is force multiplication in that the energy imparted on one gemstone is dependent on its comparative size with the other gemstone, but that force comes from whatever is moving the gemstone. The force doesn’t come from nowhere.

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3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, there is force multiplication in that the energy imparted on one gemstone is dependent on its comparative size with the other gemstone, but that force comes from whatever is moving the gemstone. The force doesn’t come from nowhere.

Well let me ask you something.

How does Brandon intend to use this?

The idea is that the group on the ground can pull their gems along for a fraction of the distance that the fourth bridge moves.

So, unless new force is added, how is that possible?

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11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well let me ask you something.

How does Brandon intend to use this?

The idea is that the group on the ground can pull their gems along for a fraction of the distance that the fourth bridge moves.

So, unless new force is added, how is that possible?

I don't think that is the idea, actually. I think the idea is to add "gears" to conjoined fabrial creations. Since no force is created out of thin air, moving the fourth bridge would take basically the same amount of force to move the same speed. While they could decrease the area of the gemstones being pulled, it wouldn't be a huge advantadge if they continued to use chulls. However, they won't continue to use chulls. They will use gravity, like with Kaladin's glove. Only, instead of the maximum acceleration being limited to the acceleration of gravity, and the mininum acceleration being controlled by slowing the fall of the gemstones, the maximum speed will be capped by the size of the gemstones they can find, and the minimum speed will be controlled by having smaller gemstones falling. That makes  than conjoined fabrials somehow switching from movement conservation across distances to stormlight to kinetic energy converters. We already have lashings for that.

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6 hours ago, Nameless said:

I don't think that is the idea, actually. I think the idea is to add "gears" to conjoined fabrial creations. Since no force is created out of thin air, moving the fourth bridge would take basically the same amount of force to move the same speed. While they could decrease the area of the gemstones being pulled, it wouldn't be a huge advantadge if they continued to use chulls. However, they won't continue to use chulls. They will use gravity, like with Kaladin's glove. Only, instead of the maximum acceleration being limited to the acceleration of gravity, and the mininum acceleration being controlled by slowing the fall of the gemstones, the maximum speed will be capped by the size of the gemstones they can find, and the minimum speed will be controlled by having smaller gemstones falling. That makes  than conjoined fabrials somehow switching from movement conservation across distances to stormlight to kinetic energy converters. We already have lashings for that.

If force is the same that does nothing.

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33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If force is the same that does nothing.

Yes it does. Force equals mass times speed. An object with less mass that has the same amount of force applied to it as an object with more mass will move more. If you need an example, go push on a wall, then push on a chair with the same force. Which moves more?

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18 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes it does. Force equals mass times speed. An object with less mass that has the same amount of force applied to it as an object with more mass will move more. If you need an example, go push on a wall, then push on a chair with the same force. Which moves more?

The smaller gem is connected to a bridge with far more mass than the big one.

The bridge itself will not move any faster.

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