ZHRPhoenix

theory
What Odium is really up to and why it won't work[Discuss]

10 posts in this topic

 

I will start this off with a warning that this thread will contain spoilers for most if not all of the Cosmere so I recommend turning away now if you aren't caught up, with that being said let's begin.

*WoB/Sources/Quotes in spoiler sections to help reduce length*

1. Odium is the wrong name for the shard. I propose Odium's true shard name should instead be fear and that he excepts being called Odium and being seen as passion and hatred to hide this. Multiple WoB references Rayse as being both afraid of other shards and afraid of taking up shards since they may change him and in his mind that is no better than being destroyed.

Spoiler

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Odium mad about Sazed having two Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and scared.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Valhalla (paraphrased)

Did Odium Splinter all the Shards for the same reason?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Some Shards he Splintered because he feared the Shard itself, and some Shards he targeted because he feared the Vessel. He was working his way down his list in order of the Shards and Vessels he felt would be most dangerous to his plans until he got stuck on Roshar.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2016)

Spoiler

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Spoiler

He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited. Way of Kings epigraph 19

2. It is well accepted that at least Rayse-Odium's main goal was to splinter all other shards and become the sole god of the Cosmere though he seems to be zoning in on exactly what that means based on the different methods of splintering shards. Devotion/Dominion being splintered and pulled into the cognitive realm to form the Dor though this seems to have displeased Odium since the power is still accessible through inhabitants of Sel. Ambition who's splintering seems to have been very messy although I suspect was much more intentional. We know Mercy was involved in at least one of the clashes between Odium and Ambition so perhaps the condition of her request was that in helping splinter a shard he was not allowed to go as far as before in pulling them through to the cognitive so Odium instead created or helped shape a pseudo vessel for the shard's power in the form of the evil that would constantly leak the shard's power forming shades to prevent it from ever completely reforming into a full shard. This brings us to Honor who I believe knew what was coming and perhaps even knew he could not defeat Odium so instead decided to lean into the process and splinter himself as much as possible before Odium could in order to create the most useful tools for after his death. I believe the largest portion to be the Stormfather since he was named Honor's heir and transferred as much of himself as he could over creating what I will call the first subshard, essentially something in between a full shard and a sliver and split the rest of his power into 9 other subshards perhaps each one appears as a spren such as the stormfather and each order has one of these subshards. 

Spoiler

This thread goes into some detail that makes me think perhaps Syl is the subshard associated with the Honorspren/Windrunners and hence why Kaladin is given the title Son of Tanavast which seems to be above the Son of Honor most Rosharans get. 

 

3. Honor shattered himself? If I am correct in the assumption that Honor intentionally split his power I believe he did it in the hopes that he would actually be stronger divided and splintered than as a whole shard. Harmony specifically states that having two shards makes it more difficult for him to act, a sentiment Rayse-Odium seems to at least somewhat agree with since he refuses to take up a second shard. Perhaps Honor attempted to mimic the shattering of Adonalsium upon himself to create even smaller shards in a hope that it would grant them greater control over their powers. I believe this is the reason the Dawnshard of change is in the Rosharan system at all, since the 4 dawnshards were involved in shattering Adonalsium perhaps Tanavast used this dawnshard to further shatter his shard. After all, Harmony seems to act much more like a single shard than as two separate shards combined so perhaps the days of 16 shards have been over for quite a while today and in fact, there would only be 1 great shard(Harmony) the only double shard we know of and while theoretically stronger has less ability to act. Possibly followed by the Dor which seems to be something similar in the mixing of Devotion and Dominion but without a true vessel and leaking far more into the physical realm. Then followed by the 10 remaining full shards Then the splintered shard of Ambition which I believe is in a semi vessel called the evil that is leaking similar to the Dor in Sel but instead by creating shades and enforcing rules to purposefully hinder humanity from becoming to advanced to itself be a threat to Odium, and finally my theorized 10 new subshards of Honor that would be the last thing on the power scale of shards with slivers being close behind although to distinct from shards to be considered in this Hierarchy. In the end, this would mean there are 23 "vessels" of Adonalsiums original power at this point although taking many forms from the original 16 shards. 

4.Taravangian Odium-I believe the new Odium is going to attempt to escape the Rosharan system by tricking Dalinar into thinking that since he is a new vessel he should not be bound to the system any longer and instead be allowed to leave and set up his own system. Whether this will work or not I have no idea but most likely even if Taravangian tries this and means it at first I believe the fear of the shard would soon corrupt him and he would begin destroying other shards again out of paranoia.

5. The downfall of Odium will inevitably be due to something less than a shard I believe. I think his fear is driving him to focus too much on the other shards and his fear of Harmony furthers my belief in this since Harmony is likely the smallest threat to Odium being so powerful that he can actually barely act and could do no harm to Odium. Instead, I think the new set of subshards of Honor will be his downfall. The bridge between shards and humans allows absolute control of the shard's full extent by unifying together. Individually they may be weaker than Odium but theoretically, if Dalinar connects the other 9 subshards(him being one since bonded to stormfather) together then this will be the true end of Odium since they will have all the power of a shard but be able to use it without the restriction of intent binding them such as Harmony.

6. The end of the Cosmere- since Odium seems to be the primary antagonist of the Cosmere I theorize that the true end of the series will only occur once Odium is either himself splintered so far that his shards power no longer poses a threat, he ends up combining with other shards that actually mellow out the fear and only by becoming more powerful does his rampage stop, or Odium succeeds in splintering every other shard then proceeding to kill most of the intelligent life in the Cosmere in fear that it could also oppose him since after all it was mere mortals that shattered Adonalsium. Perhaps the only race left will be Dull form singers or his fused that are either too weak to resist Odium or bound and controlled by him explicitly like how Harmony can control Hemalurgic Constructs.

Side Note: Odium's arc seems to be associated with the trope of creating your own downfall by being so afraid that he will be taken down that he becomes a harsh tyrannical god that everyone wants to take down whereas if he had just gone and invested his own system from the start likely would have been fine.

I apologize if this wasn't well written or if I missed anything/didn't use enough sources. I happily invite discussion and will try to update and improve this as I go since this is my first attempt at theorizing and is only a first draft of my ideas.

Edited by ZHRPhoenix
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Taravangian seems to think of Odium as hatred more than anything else.

Edited by Frustration
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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian seems to think of Odium as hatred more than anything else.

That's true but taravangian as a person is very fearful as well. His major struggle is trying to find a way to defeat an enemy that he thinks is too powerful to be beat. Furthermore fear can manifest as hatred. Few things are more dangerous than a cornered animal in fear for it's life, essentially my thought process is the shard causes such a deep routed fear that it leads to hating almost everyone and everything else because to odium anything could be a threat. I also feel when reading Odium scenes that he comes off as wearing a mask of power most of the time and doesn't really feel like a real person except for the moments the fear breaks through also something I missed earlier is that he is very hesitant to ever enter a contest of champions unless he's first afraid that he may lose.

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11 hours ago, ZHRPhoenix said:

That's true but taravangian as a person is very fearful as well. His major struggle is trying to find a way to defeat an enemy that he thinks is too powerful to be beat.

A man who calmly forbids any attempt to save his person is fearful?

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5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A man who calmly forbids any attempt to save his person is fearful?

I think in that instance it is more a sense of fear for his nation and his people and is a rare moment where he does put others above himself, perhaps that will even be a major arc of his escapades or even be part of how Odium gets defeated next, a chink in the intent, a people to give him pause long enough for them to resist. I think the only major counterpoint to this would be him destroying Hoid's breathes but I also see this as an act of fear, Hoid found out he wasn't Rayse crazy fast and I think that scared T-Odium at the moment and realized that perhaps it isn't a good idea to reveal the fact that there is a different Odium quite yet. After all, he does make a pattern throughout the books of withholding information until he thinks it necessary or beneficial to release. Nevertheless, I do agree that perhaps I did not explain Taravangian the person's connection to fear quite well enough in my original post but would also like to mention that I don't think the vessel has to have a predisposition for the shards nature but that this is more of a Brandon likes to connect the personalities of the vessel and shard to some degree for story purposes.

Let's start with his trip to the Nightwatcher where Taravangian asks for "The capacity to save humankind" which at least to me seems an act that meant he feared he wouldn't be able to do enough, this leads me to think maybe TOdium will be a whole new kind of fear even, perhaps he will fear not being a good enough god for his people though this still wouldn't stop him being an antagonist since he would still likely want to be a sole god so he could rule all people as the aimed to do on Roshar. Perhaps instead of the Paranoia type fear of Rayse destroying anything that he sees as a threat Taravangian as Odium will seek to be a Utilitarian god destroying the other shards in an intelligent and calculated way so that he can have sole control of the Cosmere and rule it the way he sees as best. Who knows maybe this is even how the Cosmere ends with Taravangian finally getting his Utilitarian dream. In addition, I think part of Cultivation knew Taravangian would become Odium and that is why she gave him the specific boon and curse of having great intelligence and compassion but never at the same time, to train his mind to overcome this gap such as he did in the end, he finally learned to be intelligent when he was supposed to be stupid and kind so perhaps his arc of Odium will also include the opposite learning to reign in the great intelligence of being a Shard and the Utilitarian desires to still find compassion within himself even when it seems impossible. Maybe cultivation even gets to survive this new Odium age as a reward for helping him as a sub god being forced to swear oaths that she will not act against Odium and instead serve him as the high lords serve the Queen. This would make an excellent look at the trope of Baldr from Norse mythology who was destined to die and in fear his mother made everything in the universe promise to cause him no harm except for mistletoe which ends up killing him but up until that point was invincible even if someone tried to hurt him their oath magically repelled any attack. Which now that I think about it that trope is also linked to the one I mentioned earlier of Odium creating its own defeat based on its action against the Cosmere in that the only reason Baldr's blind twin brother stabs him with the Mistletoe spear is that he thinks it can't hurt him and was tricked by Loki into doing so. We also haven't seen much of Taravangian's family so perhaps that will be his downfall, conquering the Cosmere but getting his original wish of safety for his family allowing them to defeat him since he can't fathom them doing anything against him. I hope this helps convey my thought process a little better but I appreciate the feedback and let me know if there is anything else I missed or got wrong! :D

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I was doing a little more digging today and can't believe I missed this WoB but it also seems to support the idea that the shards are not static and can at least be formed into bigger shards so it seems only natural that they could go the other way and become smaller shards. Also another example of the strong association with fear. Something else of note is looking through WoB on the Arcanum archive Brandon loves wiggling in the idea of fear when talking about Odium and even a simple search for the word fear almost every mention is either from reckoners his non-cosmere work that talks a lot about fear closely followed by mentions of Odium and Rayse being afraid.

Spoiler

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

 

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On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Odium is the wrong name for the shard. I propose Odium's true shard name should instead be fear and that he excepts being called Odium and being seen as passion and hatred to hide this.

So, for one, the word used to name a Shard is incomplete, too non-descriptive, too narrow. The ocean is wet, but "wet" is an inadequate term to describe it. Then we have this:

Quote

Odium smiled again.

Then everything went white. Dalinar found himself standing on a speck of nothingness that was the entire world, looking up at an eternal, all-embracing flame. It stretched in every direction, starting as red, moving to orange, then changing to blazing white.

Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry.

This was something so terroble that in consumed light itself. Ot was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.

Burning.

Overwhelming.

Power.

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

-Oathbringer, chapter 57

Quote

"I will not question." However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power . . . It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

-RoW, interlude I-2

Quote

It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A . . . vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Stormlight. It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it.

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

His soul vibrated.

Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.

Taravangian hesitated briefly, then thrust his hands into the well of power.

And Ascended to godhood, becoming Odium.

-RoW, chapter 113

Quote

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

[...]

On the other side was his fury. The terrible fury, like an unbridled storm, churned and burned within him. It too was so overwhelming he could barely control it.

-RoW, chapter 114

So, a few takeaways here, one; yes, Odium is fear, just as Odium is apparently all strong emotion, two; that is not exactly what people notice first, I don't think the power would lie about its nature to Taravangian, three; if the nature of the power was "fear" then why does it want to be questioned, challenged?

There's also the fact that Shard Intents aren't self-directed, Ruin's MO wasn't destroying himself, for instance.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Multiple WoB references Rayse as being both afraid of other shards and afraid of taking up shards since they may change him and in his mind that is no better than being destroyed.

To me this is like claiming only Tanavast could be honourable. Rayse is afraid of being not himself, he's afraid of changing due to holding multiple Shards, he's afraid of there being people who can challenge his primacy. Dude wants to be top dog, and anyone else on the same level is a threat.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Devotion/Dominion being splintered and pulled into the cognitive realm to form the Dor though this seems to have displeased Odium since the power is still accessible through inhabitants of Sel.

Well:

Quote

Argent

I thought, like, at one of the signings you told me that when Odium was on Sel and Splintered the Shards there, the reason he did the Cognitive Realm hack was because he was not yet experienced in Splintering stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. He did not want what happened to happen, but he didn't know that he didn't want what happened to happen.

Argent

What I was getting at is, I could never find a recording of you saying "He was not experienced. He didn't want the power to be taken by anyone, and that's the only solution he could figure out." Does that sound like something you would say?

Brandon Sanderson

That is something I would say, yes... There are better ways to do what he wanted to do, which he later did a better job with. But there's not a lot of experimenting he could do.

Argent

Limited number of subjects, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

The whole Sel situation seems to be due to inexperience.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

We know Mercy was involved in at least one of the clashes between Odium and Ambition

So, fun ambiguity here, it's not clear if Mercy was on either side, and if so which, or if it was a three-way clash.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

so Odium instead created or helped shape a pseudo vessel for the shard's power in the form of the evil that would constantly leak the shard's power forming shades to prevent it from ever completely reforming into a full shard.

Ehh, given that the Evil and the Shades are not known to be related, I'm doubtful. I'd also imagine that it's more that Threnody is "irradiated" from the clash.

It's also possible that Rayse had more of an idea of what not to do that time around, so he didn't have to resort to shenanigans. 

I also fail to see why Mercy would have wanted it that way, I'm not sure how that lines up with their Intent.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

This brings us to Honor who I believe knew what was coming and perhaps even knew he could not defeat Odium so instead decided to lean into the process and splinter himself as much as possible before Odium could in order to create the most useful tools for after his death.

I could definitely see some of that, given that the power of Honor and Cultivation keeps Odium trapped, even after the death of Tanavast.

The interesting thing there is that Tanavast didn't die until around the False Desolation.

I'm not sure what exactly him splintering himself would have acomplished, rather that Odium splintering him, other than being able to choose what spren were created from it.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

I believe the largest portion to be the Stormfather

That tracks.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

transferred as much of himself as he could over creating what I will call the first subshard, essentially something in between a full shard and a sliver

Do you mean between a Shard and a Splinter? 

Sliver is usually taken to mean someone who held a portion of a Shard, and Splinter a piece of a Shard that has come alive (like spren.)

And I'm pretty sure that would typically just be a "bigger" Splinter.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

and split the rest of his power into 9 other subshards perhaps each one appears as a spren such as the stormfather and each order has one of these subshards. 

Thanks, I hate it.

This idea really doesn't sit well with me, it both makes the Stormfather less unique and potentially introduces shenanigans that don't fit with established systems.

Or, if it has no bearing on the people bonded to these spren, what's the point?

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

This thread goes into some detail that makes me think perhaps Syl is the subshard associated with the Honorspren/Windrunners and hence why Kaladin is given the title Son of Tanavast which seems to be above the Son of Honor most Rosharans get. 

Thanks, I hate it.

I think Syl is already special enough, Ancient Daughter and all that, and we don't need more things making Kaladin the best thing sinced sliced chull dung.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

If I am correct in the assumption that Honor intentionally split his power I believe he did it in the hopes that he would actually be stronger divided and splintered than as a whole shard.

To me this doesn't make much sense.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Harmony specifically states that having two shards makes it more difficult for him to act

Which does not mean that having less than a whole Shard makes it easier.

Also, here's Harmony being very clear about his particular dilemma:

Quote

Other Shards I cannot identify, and are hidden from me. I fear that their influence encroaches upon my world, yet I am locked into a strange inability because of the opposed powers I hold.

-RoW, chapter 28 epigraph, emphasis mine

The problem isn't holding two Shards, the problem is holding two Shards that are in direct opposition. 

That's not to say that holding multiple Shards wouldn't restrict you somewhat, but in most cases not anywhere near the level of Harmony.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

a sentiment Rayse-Odium seems to at least somewhat agree with since he refuses to take up a second shard.

No, he is what he wants to be and doesn't want a second Intent changing him.

Quote

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)
Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)
Quote

He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

-WoR, chapter 71 epigraph, emphasis mine

Rayse wants to be and remain Odium, it's about his nature changing, rather than him being restricted.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Perhaps Honor attempted to mimic the shattering of Adonalsium upon himself to create even smaller shards in a hope that it would grant them greater control over their powers.

I don't see it. I also think a cohesive whole would be preferable, having fewer weak points. In addition to that, Adonalsium does not seem to have had any problem acting, so the Shards are probably more limited, because it's hard-to-impossible for a Vessel to act against the Intent of their Shard, while a being with all of these contextualised by eachother should make it pretty easy to act.

Something is definitely up with Odium being able to kill Vessels and Splinter Shards, especially since we know that Cultivation was helping Honor against Odium. But we clearly don't have the full story there.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

I believe this is the reason the Dawnshard of change is in the Rosharan system at all, since the 4 dawnshards were involved in shattering Adonalsium perhaps Tanavast used this dawnshard to further shatter his shard.

Given that Tanavast says that the Dawnshards are lost in one of the visions, I doubt it.

And if he did do that, would these new "semi-shards" be further derivations of Honor? 

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

After all, Harmony seems to act much more like a single shard than as two separate shards combined

Yes and no, Harmony clearly still has two Intents, though the powers are intermingled.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

I believe the new Odium is going to attempt to escape the Rosharan system by tricking Dalinar into thinking that since he is a new vessel he should not be bound to the system any longer and instead be allowed to leave and set up his own system.

Noo...

That wouldn't work, I think. Dalinar could probably release him, but it'd have to be with Intent. He couldn't be tricked into it.

There's also a question of, why should Dalinar trust the new Vessel, it's still Odium?

It would also lead to some odd interactions, and possibly amount to nothing.

Quote

He took a deep breath. "Final terms are these: a contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way."

"Agreed," Odium said. "But if I win, I will keep everything I've won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms."

"And I," Dalinar whispered. "I agree to these terms."

-RoW, chapter 112

These are the terms set between Dalinar and Odium.

We also know that this agreement is made between Odium and Dalinar, not Rayse and Dalinar:

Quote

He'd wanted to save his city, and had succeeded. After that, he'd wanted to save Roshar. He could do that now. He could end this war. Storms, Dalinar and Odium's contract—which bound Taravangian just as soundly—would do that already.

-RoW, chapter 114

Dalinar would probably be in breach of the contract made, if he releases Odium.

And given that:

Quote

"I cannot break my word," Odium said, the heat increasing. "I basically am incapable of it."

"Basically?" Dalinar pressed. "What happens, Odium, if you break your word."

"Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me."

"I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar. This isn't some deal with a Voidbringer from your myths, where one tricks the other with some silly twist of language."

-RoW, chapter 112

This leads me to believe that if Taravangian were to somehow trick Dalinar to release him, Taravangian would be violating the good faith agreement, because he knows he's bound by the deal.

He'd be in the same position as Rayse breaking his word in that case.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

The downfall of Odium will inevitably be due to something less than a shard I believe.

Wouldn't that just be a retread of how Rayse was offed?

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

I think his fear is driving him to focus too much on the other shards and his fear of Harmony furthers my belief in this since Harmony is likely the smallest threat to Odium being so powerful that he can actually barely act and could do no harm to Odium.

Given that Taravangian is certain of his own superiority, I don't see it.

Quote

But . . . beyond that, what of the entire cosmere? He couldn't see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor's plans, and he had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods.

-RoW, chapter 114

And earlier in that same chapter it's noted that the power is moulding him.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Individually they may be weaker than Odium but theoretically, if Dalinar connects the other 9 subshards(him being one since bonded to stormfather) together then this will be the true end of Odium since they will have all the power of a shard but be able to use it without the restriction of intent binding them such as Harmony.

Isn't this basically what happened with Vin at the end of HoA? Someone using the power of a Shard before it managed to restrict them?

I also fail to see how this would be the "true end" of Odium, even a splintered Shard can be "reforged" somehow. The only thing would be if the Vessel of another Shard took up Odium as well.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

since Odium seems to be the primary antagonist of the Cosmere

Oh, I hope not.

There'd be something very... boring, I suppose, about the endgame antagonist being such an evil overlord archetype.

On 2021-11-22 at 2:22 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Odium's arc seems to be associated with the trope of creating your own downfall by being so afraid that he will be taken down that he becomes a harsh tyrannical god that everyone wants to take down whereas if he had just gone and invested his own system from the start likely would have been fine.

I... really don't see it.

Rayse tried to be proactive about threats to him, he was never interested in having his own system.

Seeing as he wanted to be the only god, just going off somewhere and claiming his own system wouldn't have been conducive to his goal.

On 2021-11-22 at 4:30 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

That's true but taravangian as a person is very fearful as well.

If you knew the end of the world was coming, wouldn't you be?

On 2021-11-22 at 4:30 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

His major struggle is trying to find a way to defeat an enemy that he thinks is too powerful to be beat.

Given his original plan, no, not really.

The Diagram says: "You must become king. Of Everything." And given how Taravangian was trying to bargain with Rayse, it would seem the plan was to secure a deal in which his subjects were spared. If he rules everyone Odium can't touch them.

On 2021-11-22 at 4:30 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Few things are more dangerous than a cornered animal in fear for it's life, essentially my thought process is the shard causes such a deep routed fear that it leads to hating almost everyone and everything else because to odium anything could be a threat.

I don't think that fighting with everything you've got because you're cornered and resenting everyone around you is not the same.

Rayse is also clearly not paranoid about everyone, he wants control, but he doesn't fear revealing himself. He's angry when he comes to Taravangian, and is clearly not even entertaining the idea that he might be vulnerable.

Turns out he was.

On 2021-11-22 at 4:30 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

I also feel when reading Odium scenes that he comes off as wearing a mask of power most of the time and doesn't really feel like a real person except for the moments the fear breaks through

Well, the power is almost wearing the person at this point. Compare to Ruin getting emotional in Secret History, the power breaks through the mask.

Keep in mind that Rayse has spent thousands of years being shaped by Odium as well.

On 2021-11-22 at 4:30 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

also something I missed earlier is that he is very hesitant to ever enter a contest of champions unless he's first afraid that he may lose.

Well, he has no reason to take the deal unless it looks preferable to not taking the deal.

He's got basically all the time in the world and he's a functional god. What reason does he have to take the deal if he feels that he's got the upper hand?

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

I think the only major counterpoint to this would be him destroying Hoid's breathes but I also see this as an act of fear, Hoid found out he wasn't Rayse crazy fast and I think that scared T-Odium at the moment and realized that perhaps it isn't a good idea to reveal the fact that there is a different Odium quite yet.

I don't know if it's fear, but that is arguable either way.

In any case, he would be throwing away his greatest trump card if it was revealed the Odium wasn't Rayse anymore.

Quote

Almost all possible futures agreed. Szeth would confess that he'd gone to kill Taravangian, but somehow Taravangian had drawn Nightblood—and the weapon had consumed him.

They thought him dead. He was free . . .

Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc upon those who had doubted him!

No. No, free to plan. To devise a way to save the world from itself. He could see so far! See so much! He needed to think.

To burn!

No, to plot!

-WoR, chapter 114

It's important to him that people think him dead, as it affords him more freedom.

Also, I definitely get the feeling that the power is raging, not fearful. Fear feels inherently more passive, this power wants to lash out and take vengence, not to protect itself.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Nevertheless, I do agree that perhaps I did not explain Taravangian the person's connection to fear quite well enough in my original post but would also like to mention that I don't think the vessel has to have a predisposition for the shards nature but that this is more of a Brandon likes to connect the personalities of the vessel and shard to some degree for story purposes.

So, I'm gonna quote this again:

Quote

It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A . . . vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Stormlight. It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it.

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

His soul vibrated.

Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.

-RoW, chapter 113, emphasis mine

We also know from Secret History that the stronger a person's Connection to the Shard, the more fit they are to be its Vessel.

And no, a person's disposition doesn't have to line up with the nature of the Shard, but it's helpful.

But Taravangian being called perfect kinda implies that he's very much lined up with the nature of the power, does it not?

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Taravangian asks for "The capacity to save humankind" which at least to me seems an act that meant he feared he wouldn't be able to do enough

He wishes to prevent what is percieved as the end of the world and the extinction of humanity, feeling that he can't do enough alone makes a lot of sense.

You can call it fear or knowing that he's outmatched.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

this leads me to think maybe TOdium will be a whole new kind of fear even

How so?

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

perhaps he will fear not being a good enough god for his people

I fundamentally disagree with any reading of Taravangian as benevolent.

Also, in one of the things I've already quoted, the one that has "broken gods" in it, we can see that Taravangian already thinks that he's better than the existing Shards.

I don't think the man with the ego to believe that he, personally, should be the one to save the world, that any sacrifice is worth it to achieve that goal, is going to worry that he's not good enough.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

though this still wouldn't stop him being an antagonist since he would still likely want to be a sole god so he could rule all people as the aimed to do on Roshar.

He wanted to rule all of Roshar so that he could bargain for their safety, as seen when he makes a deal with Odium.

His end-goal has never been to rule:

Quote

He was finally free of the frailties of body and position that had always controlled and defined him. He finally had the freedom to do what he'd desired.

And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

-RoW, chapter 114

I see little reason to believe he's lying to himself here.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Taravangian as Odium will seek to be a Utilitarian god destroying the other shards in an intelligent and calculated way so that he can have sole control of the Cosmere and rule it the way he sees as best.

That is something that I can see, though I don't know exactly why he'd seek rule of the cosmere.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

In addition, I think part of Cultivation knew Taravangian would become Odium and that is why she gave him the specific boon and curse of having great intelligence and compassion but never at the same time

Not quite:

Quote

"You needed someone who could tempt the power," Taravangian said, his light gleaming like gold. "But also someone who could control it. I asked for the capacity to save the world. I thought it was the intelligence, but later wondered if it was the ability to feel. In the end, it was both. You were preparing me for this."

"Odium's power is the most dangerous of the sixteen," she said. "It ruled Rayse, driving him to destroy. It will rule you too, if you let it."

"They showed you this possibility, I assume," Taravangian said, looking at infinity. "But this isn't nearly as . . . certain as I imagined it. It shows you things that can happen, but not the hearts of those who act. How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I'd be up to the challenge?"

"I didn't," she said. "I couldn't. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear the power with honor."

-WoR, chapter 114

She was hoping, but didn't know.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

to train his mind to overcome this gap such as he did in the end, he finally learned to be intelligent when he was supposed to be stupid and kind

Ehh? What?

That was not my impression of that scene at all, nor of the purpose of the boon and curse.

On 2021-11-22 at 10:01 PM, ZHRPhoenix said:

perhaps his arc of Odium will also include the opposite learning to reign in the great intelligence of being a Shard and the Utilitarian desires to still find compassion within himself even when it seems impossible.

I doubt it.

On 2021-11-24 at 1:17 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

can't believe I missed this WoB but it also seems to support the idea that the shards are not static and can at least be formed into bigger shards so it seems only natural that they could go the other way and become smaller shards.

Pretty sure that'd just be Splinters.

On 2021-11-24 at 1:17 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Also another example of the strong association with fear.

Again, this is like saying that only Honor can be honourable or that only Ruin can destroy.

And this particular fear is probably the fear that holding multiple Shards would change his nature. The powers are intermingled.

On 2021-11-24 at 1:17 AM, ZHRPhoenix said:

Something else of note is looking through WoB on the Arcanum archive Brandon loves wiggling in the idea of fear when talking about Odium and even a simple search for the word fear almost every mention is either from reckoners his non-cosmere work that talks a lot about fear closely followed by mentions of Odium and Rayse being afraid.

Again, someone being afraid doesn't mean that their nature is fear. 

 

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On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

So, for one, the word used to name a Shard is incomplete, too non-descriptive, too narrow. The ocean is wet, but "wet" is an inadequate term to describe it. Then we have this:

Let me start off with thanks for the reply to the thread and I loved your insight, you are absolutely right on this point and perhaps it was a little bold of me to go as far as saying the shards entire intent dealt with fear and my efforts would have been better focused in pointing out the connection to fear as a subset of Odium. The whole hatred and passion just seemed to be underplayed by the messages of fear on and off-screen so my assumption was a full-on red herring of it being fear warped so far as to be confused as other emotion but perhaps Brandon was more so just trying to focus on fear as an aspect and I still suspect it as an important aspect that Brandon wants us to notice for some reason or another.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

So, a few takeaways here, one; yes, Odium is fear, just as Odium is apparently all strong emotion, two; that is not exactly what people notice first, I don't think the power would lie about its nature to Taravangian, three; if the nature of the power was "fear" then why does it want to be questioned, challenged?

There's also the fact that Shard Intents aren't self-directed, Ruin's MO wasn't destroying himself, for instance.

Again I do think I may have stretched to say fear was the primary intent of the shard but reading through your sources leads me to believe that instead the innate hatred and urge to destroy may be an amplification of fear at least in the case of Taravangian cause despite being an all-around not so cool dude he never truly came across as hateful. Well maybe that time he tried to kill singing children but hey let's just chalk that one up to Cultivation's old magic making things screwy since in that case being cruel was his curse for the intelligence. In the end, though that does beg the question of how much do we really know Taravangian maybe he really is horrible and would've wanted the singing children killed innately and the compassion was the true boon to temper his fury. As for the questioned/challenged issue, I do think that can largely be attributed to the shard being innately lonely to some degree, it may be hard even for a hostile shard to be alone for so long with nobody to really talk to, just subjects being given orders even if it is insubordination if its the only person who spoke a differing opinion to you this year you'll get a kick out of it. Also, I do agree that Shard intents aren't self-directed but that Taravangian as a person and a vessel may have some noticeable effects on a shard of passion and perhaps even change the perceived intent of the shard from hatred to a more fear centered shard, all of Taravangian's passions amplified and based on my reading I think the direction we are gonna see is amplified fear going forward. 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

To me this is like claiming only Tanavast could be honourable. Rayse is afraid of being not himself, he's afraid of changing due to holding multiple Shards, he's afraid of there being people who can challenge his primacy. Dude wants to be top dog, and anyone else on the same level is a threat.

A fair argument but again I do think this is similar to my last point that this may be more a look at the character of the vessel in relation to the shard from a story perspective but not necessarily actually unique to Rayse, Odium, or Taravangian specifically. Rather it's something Brandon likes to give us for thematic reasons.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

The whole Sel situation seems to be due to inexperience.

Absolutely I think he's been experimenting with different methods and don't think he's truly gotten it the way he wanted a single time so far but is perhaps close to a breakthrough in that department. 

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

So, fun ambiguity here, it's not clear if Mercy was on either side, and if so which, or if it was a three-way clash

That is a fair and interesting point, I believe general consensus is that she was on the side of Odium since Harmony was worried by her response when reached out to about standing up to Odium. Though this is still up in the air in terms of cannon so definitely some room for theorizing there. 

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ehh, given that the Evil and the Shades are not known to be related, I'm doubtful. I'd also imagine that it's more that Threnody is "irradiated" from the clash.

It's also possible that Rayse had more of an idea of what not to do that time around, so he didn't have to resort to shenanigans. 

I also fail to see why Mercy would have wanted it that way, I'm not sure how that lines up with their Intent.

At this point in my theorizing, I'm really working on loose connections of being likely of Ambition's Investiture and as for Mercy's Intent, we really don't know what it is so it is hard to get a clear image of why she was involved and why Harmony doesn't like her.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Do you mean between a Shard and a Splinter? 

Sliver is usually taken to mean someone who held a portion of a Shard, and Splinter a piece of a Shard that has come alive (like spren.)

And I'm pretty sure that would typically just be a "bigger" Splinter.

Yes, I absolutely misspoke here and did mean splinter and the only reason I use the term sub shard rather than bigger splinter is that it just doesn't seem like 1/10th of a god even if that god is already 1/16th of a bigger god would still be on the same scale as a Seon or normal spren. 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Thanks, I hate it.

This idea really doesn't sit well with me, it both makes the Stormfather less unique and potentially introduces shenanigans that don't fit with established systems.

Or, if it has no bearing on the people bonded to these spren, what's the point?

I still think if my theory is correct the Stormfather is by far the most special and unique as bonsmith spren always are and is likely even stronger than my other 9 theorized subshards for many reasons. As for having a bearing on the people, eh probably not at least not till late cosmere. The most I could see Brandon actually taking this arc is in uniting all 10 subshards essentially being Honor's true intent in his words "Unite them." being that Dalinar has to find the other 9 and probably reach the 5th ideal with their subshard spren.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Thanks, I hate it.

I think Syl is already special enough, Ancient Daughter and all that, and we don't need more things making Kaladin the best thing sinced sliced chull dung.

The reason I theorize Syl being one of these subshards is that she is the last living honorspren that was created before the recreance and would have been the most likely to have been singled out by Honor himself to be turned into a subshard. Though if you hate it that much there are 10 other honorspren the Stormfather made directly that could also be candidates. It just feels like too big a task for Brandon to throw on a side character though and it seems like we aren't going to be seeing another Windrunner on the same scale as Kal and Syl based on the remaining outlines for the other 6 books.

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Which does not mean that having less than a whole Shard makes it easier.

Essentially what I was trying to say is since the shards are bound by intent of their shards but humans are free to change their intents the subshards would be free of the restriction of intent almost completely though if they are a spren from each order you would instead be bound by the Ideals of your order. 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Rayse wants to be and remain Odium, it's about his nature changing, rather than him being restricted.

The main part is there to support my theory of more shards always being worse off than individually is that in your WoB quote it is stated that even the shard of Ruin is only a "safer" option than most of the 16 but is still heavily implied to be more restrictive of him. Any shift in a shards primal intent seems to have large effects on what they are capable of doing.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't see it. I also think a cohesive whole would be preferable, having fewer weak points. In addition to that, Adonalsium does not seem to have had any problem acting, so the Shards are probably more limited, because it's hard-to-impossible for a Vessel to act against the Intent of their Shard, while a being with all of these contextualised by eachother should make it pretty easy to act.

Something is definitely up with Odium being able to kill Vessels and Splinter Shards, especially since we know that Cultivation was helping Honor against Odium. But we clearly don't have the full story there.

We really just don't have enough info on Adonalsium to know for sure what his limits were since all we know is most of his creations were done with the dawnshards which were used to kill him so at least at some point he no longer had possession of them. It's possible he was so muddled with different Intents that he was physically incapable of acting without the dawnshards to overcome it. Or it's completely possible you are right and he was fully capable of acting without restriction as a whole unit but even if that is the case it seems more like a wave function in terms of how much intent restricts entities. 2 shards may make it near impossible to act with 1 shard only having some trouble whereas humans tend to have no issue changing intent unless bound by ideals. The smaller the splinter/shard the less intent seems to keep it from acting. What happens going the other way is up in the air. As for being able to kill vessels and splinter shards it doesn't seem that special since even Vin killed a vessel after having barely become a vessel herself, as for doing it safely that just seems to need care, planning, and practice. Splintering we don't know for sure if that's anything special but if it is that would likely mean Odium already has a dawnshard intermingled with its shard which would be interesting and explain the hatred aspect of Odium since Brandon has said that none of the shards intents are truly evil, the evil they cause is due to the vessels use/interpretations, unless that is Odium had a shard along the lines of Hatred or Destruction. Rysn's dawnshard of Change does seem to be a primal force and we don't know the other 3 so it's possible one could be the act of Destruction though I can't see this being the case unless it is paired in the system with a dawnshard of Creation to balance out the system.

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Given that Tanavast says that the Dawnshards are lost in one of the visions, I doubt it.

And if he did do that, would these new "semi-shards" be further derivations of Honor? 

That's fair but one reason to bring them up is if he was looking for one. As for being further derivations of honor yes and no. I think it would take the approach of the Knights Radiants and Heralds which seem to be ideas on 10 different forms of Honor hence 10 different kinds of Ideals. 

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes and no, Harmony clearly still has two Intents, though the powers are intermingled.

The main takeaway here is in the fact that if Sazed the vessel died it has been established he would drop the shard of Harmony/Discord depending on who the new vessel was but that you would essentially have to reshatter the shard in order to get just ruin or preservation back. This likely mirrors the ideas of gravity in investiture over time clumping up together in god metals, shard pools, and heck possibly even Adonalsium himself could have been some big bang level investiture clump where the universe collapsed condensing all the investiture into Adonalsium who then created the Cosmere in order to start diffusing the investiture back out into the wider Cosmere before being accelerated by the splintering into 16 shards.

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Noo...

That wouldn't work, I think. Dalinar could probably release him, but it'd have to be with Intent. He couldn't be tricked into it.

There's also a question of, why should Dalinar trust the new Vessel, it's still Odium?

It would also lead to some odd interactions, and possibly amount to nothing.

This was on the more farfetched side of my theorizing so I can understand disagreeing, merely a thought I had since in RoW even after being betrayed Dalinar doesn't seem to hate Taravangian, and still even sympathizes with him to at least some degree. As for trusting a new vessel, each vessel is different to some extent. All understanding of shards we have so far suggests that the shard may be the overarching intent but the vessel has a lot of wiggle room in how they let that intent guide them. He can totally blame Rayse as just being a horrible person who let the intent of passion consume him and fuel his hatred and ambitions. Again Odium the shard itself is confirmed to not be evil, it requires either a poor vessel or an evil vessel to act truly evil. Even Hoid may have advocated for releasing Odium with a trustworthy vessel at the wheel though I doubt he likes TOdium much more than ROdium.

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

This leads me to believe that if Taravangian were to somehow trick Dalinar to release him, Taravangian would be violating the good faith agreement, because he knows he's bound by the deal.

He'd be in the same position as Rayse breaking his word in that case.

There is still some wiggle room for manipulation if Taravangian convinces Dalinar to cancel the duel he is freed from the system. Or just wait till after the duel then make another deal to release him. There is certainly still some room to wiggle, I don't see Brandon locking Odium to Roshar for the entire Cosmere just to win a single continent. 

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Wouldn't that just be a retread of how Rayse was offed?

I mean in the sense of Odium the shard will be shattered by a non shard or subshard. I don't think any sort of coalition of shards on Hoid or Harmony's part will be his ultimate downfall but rather Dalinar will play at least some role in the shattering of Odium.

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

How so?

I was referencing fear of failure driving him to save everyone rather than Rayse's fear of others being able to defeat him causing him to destroy anything he perceived as a threat.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I fundamentally disagree with any reading of Taravangian as benevolent.

Also, in one of the things I've already quoted, the one that has "broken gods" in it, we can see that Taravangian already thinks that he's better than the existing Shards.

I don't think the man with the ego to believe that he, personally, should be the one to save the world, that any sacrifice is worth it to achieve that goal, is going to worry that he's not good enough.

Again I was essentially insinuating that he would be driven by fear of not being able to save everyone leading him to dethrone the "broken gods" that are the other shards to become the ruler of the Cosmere because only he is strong enough. He's sure he has the strength to rule as the perfect god but fears he won't be good enough unless he is the only god because under any other shard he sees people as being mistreated and that he isn't doing enough to help them.

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ehh? What?

That was not my impression of that scene at all, nor of the purpose of the boon and curse.

I'm referencing his scene where he learns how to beat Rayse on one of his dumb days and he realizes that he can overcome the stupidity if he channels his compassion for people into the drive to find this discovery. Learning to think while dumb while full of passion. Training him to be ready for the shard of Odium. 

 

On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Again, this is like saying that only Honor can be honourable or that only Ruin can destroy.

And this particular fear is probably the fear that holding multiple Shards would change his nature. The powers are intermingled.

Again mainly I was just trying to show the lines Brandon seems to be drawing between the ideas of Odium and Fear over and over.

Overall you made a lot of great points and gave me a lot more viewpoints to think of this from. I definitely latched on to the message of Odium being associated with fear a little too strongly and while I think it is something brandon is trying to point at perhaps it is not in the shards overall intent but perhaps more just a hint at what to expect from Odium in the near future. I hope I explained my process on subshards a little better and on why I think splinter is too loose a term for what I think these 10 subshards are. Things that aren't quite just small pieces of a god and not quite a full god. Even as shards they are considered near-infinite in potential and power merely bound by their intent so 1/10th of that is more like a greek pantheon level god, beings of crazy power but specialized even further into orders and ideals as ideas of character and/or goals rather than primal intent. 

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I don't think Tanavast could have splintered himself.  He was Honor.  God of Oaths and Bindings.  Holding things together was his nature. Splintering himself would have gone against his nature.  As we saw with Preservation, the longer an individual is bound to a Shard, the harder it is for them to go against the nature of that Shard.  

I also don't think the Shard Odium is actually Fear, because Fear is not what people feel from him when they see him.  They feel rage.  Passion.  

Odium felt fear, or to be typed more accurately, he FELT FEAR, because he FEELS everything so strongly, because his Shard is, essentially, Emotion. 

The way I see it, each of the Shards are an aspect of God, called Adonalsium, here.  Some of them are Divine representations of the laws God put in place to create the universe:  Entropy (Ruin), Inertia (Preservation), Honor (bindings), Cultivation (Life/growth).  Others were more representing of himself as a person: Emotion (Odium), Intelligence (Invention), Self Sufficience (Autonomy).  Some are how he views others: Endowment, Devotion, Dominion, Mercy.  Some are how he views himself: Valor, Ambition.  

Fear isn't an aspect of God.  Not really.  There's the quote about Rayse holding God's own Wrath, without anything to give it context.  I think that Adonalsium would have been free to act however he wanted, because he wouldn't have 16 intents.  He would have One Complete intent.  That One Intent was split into 16 pieces, each developing their own Intent.  Put any two of them together, particularly who who have competing Intents (like Entropy and Inertia), and you wind up with contention. But give all the shards together, and bind those intents into one, and you don't get a bunch of different intents, you get one complete person.  

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5 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I don't think Tanavast could have splintered himself.  He was Honor.  God of Oaths and Bindings.  Holding things together was his nature. Splintering himself would have gone against his nature.  As we saw with Preservation, the longer an individual is bound to a Shard, the harder it is for them to go against the nature of that Shard.  

I also don't think the Shard Odium is actually Fear, because Fear is not what people feel from him when they see him.  They feel rage.  Passion.  

Odium felt fear, or to be typed more accurately, he FELT FEAR, because he FEELS everything so strongly, because his Shard is, essentially, Emotion. 

The way I see it, each of the Shards are an aspect of God, called Adonalsium, here.  Some of them are Divine representations of the laws God put in place to create the universe:  Entropy (Ruin), Inertia (Preservation), Honor (bindings), Cultivation (Life/growth).  Others were more representing of himself as a person: Emotion (Odium), Intelligence (Invention), Self Sufficience (Autonomy).  Some are how he views others: Endowment, Devotion, Dominion, Mercy.  Some are how he views himself: Valor, Ambition.  

Fear isn't an aspect of God.  Not really.  There's the quote about Rayse holding God's own Wrath, without anything to give it context.  I think that Adonalsium would have been free to act however he wanted, because he wouldn't have 16 intents.  He would have One Complete intent.  That One Intent was split into 16 pieces, each developing their own Intent.  Put any two of them together, particularly who who have competing Intents (like Entropy and Inertia), and you wind up with contention. But give all the shards together, and bind those intents into one, and you don't get a bunch of different intents, you get one complete person.  

I love your breakdown and explanation of the shards and I have conceded that the shard Odium being primarily fear was in fact a stretch and more that it's just an aspect of Odium Brandon seems to want us to keep an eye on. As for Honor splitting himself it could've also involved Cultivation as an outside influence to help overcome the idea of unity. Love the feedback and keep it up!

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