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Found 6 results

  1. Hi all, so this is a spin-off of the Nicrosil Feruchemy and the Bands topic. But once I got writing and thinking I decided to flesh it out. I intend to flesh this out even more, so if you see me edit stuff in, be not surprised. In this thread I examine how allomantic power in the context of steelpushing is majorly dependent on two things; weight and allomantic power. Further, I give insight into the nature of power and sensitivity. Weight determines who moves, as well as how much, and allomantic strength is almost a measure of how much this rule can be violated; it also provides an extra amount of power in addition to one's weight, but it also seems to determine sensitivity. Steelpushing: Weights and Anchors Now, we all ought to know that weight is vital in steelpushing; it is weight manipulation that makes a lot of Wax's cooler feats possible and we see examples in pretty much every book. However, it isn't just about the weight of the allomancer, but the size or weight of the anchor as well. Now, if you're short on time, suffice it to say that a heavy anchor that's high in metal is better as it allows for a longer push. Now, we see this as early as chapter 1, page 32 of the Alloy of Law where Wax notes, whilst cruising the city, This also states more metal is better, which is also implied on chapter 1, page 34, of the Alloy of Law. It is worth noting that this again notes it may not just be weight, but metal mass that is particularly important for an anchor. As we know, larger anchors have thicker lines. As one approaches a metal the line becomes brighter, and as one leaves it becomes fainter. The thicker the line, the more enduring the anchor the object tends to be. It is notable that Kelsier also uses an ingot to train Vin in jumping the city wall of Luthadel, in The Final Empire chapter 8 page 147, This would seem unnecessary if a mere coin was enough. Indeed, So, weight determines who moves, and quality of anchor determines how far one can move, by determining the time extent of the push. A bigger, more metallic anchor is better and will allow longer sustained motion whilst a smaller anchor allows shorter flight. Allomantic Strength and Pushing We're introduced to the notion of allomantic strength early on with Vin, who is abnormal in her high strength. But before we compare between people, it helps to consider burn rates with a single person. Take Vin. She is capable of burning her metal and extracting a given amount of power. She may also flare it; flaring a metal allows her to draw more strength from her metal, but at the cost of a faster rate of consumption. So, all else equal, Vin is capable of drawing more strength from her metals at a cost of reduced burntime. Now take Kelsier and Vin. Both can burn the same metal, say steel, but they have different burn rates. This burn rate is a result of spiritual DNA and the more allomantic sDNA, the faster the burn, and consequently the more power at any given time. It is explicit as per WoB (thanks and full credit to Yata) that a stronger allomancer is one who burns their metals faster. But what does 'more powerful' mean? What is greater allomantic strength? Essentially, this means stronger (more force) pushes and pulls from a given anchor, as well as obvious consequences for the other metals. We see this in The Final Empire, chapter 9, page 174 and Kelsier comments on it on page 182. Particularly relevant is that Kelsier is bigger than Vin, and he does end up winning, but he still feels it -more than he otherwise should. Strength allows a degree of freedom. This is a relatively slight difference, it's less conclusive than we'd like but it is useful for demonstrating the point, so let's go with another more drastic example. We further see this with Elend in Hero of Ages, chapter 3, page 32. So right here we see that that Elend only stumbles -he's not thrown away- and the Inquisitor is tossed away. Essentially, this demonstrates that allomantic strength not only allows one to effect someone else more than it should, but in the case of a Pushing match it allows the stronger party to suffer less damage. It violates the weight determines what moves (and how much) rule. Or more accurately, the greater the difference in strength, the less the difference in weight matters. But What About Sensitivity In the interests of being fair, I've heard this before, most recently by SpoolofWhool but in the interests of being honest, I'd also noted this myself. Basically, it is my thoughts that a stronger allomancer isn't just stronger, but is also more sensitive. This is implied with Vin's training with Marsh (she's not just strong, but hemalurgically gifted) where she can already feel the direction of the metals burn. But there's more, there's a scene in Shadows of Self, chapter 20, page 308 where Wax is alone in the dark with TenSoon and by flaring his metals he can only just see the lines. Better though, in the Bands of Mourning, page 258, Wax notes (of Wayne's new identity-less metalmind) In Conclusion (or TLDR) Weight of anchors matters for push length, and power in some cases. Greater strength of a allomancer allows more Pushing force given the same anchor. Greater strength alos seems to grant greater sensitivity. Still to come; Cleanup, Anchor quality, Savantism, Nicrosil and stored allomancy, Soul interference and allomantic power, Wax and Vin at LORD RULER (+) power. And more!
  2. I've been following the "Weight has nothing to do with allomantic Push/pull strength" thread for a while, and I think we're using the wrong model for framing physics questions related to Pushing and Pulling. What is the behavior observed in the books? If Coinshot A Pushes with allomantic strength B on coin C, we observe that both A and C will experience acceleration proportional to B but inversely proportional to their mass. So as long as C is not anchored, it will accelerate rapidly while A is barely affected, but when C hits the ground or a sturdy wall suddenly its effective mass is increased to the mass of the combined system (coin plus wall, or coin plus planet), and its acceleration drops way off while A's acceleration spikes. When we use F=ma, the problem that arises is that the acceleration a Coinshot experiences when Pushing a coin should depend only on the magnitude of the force applied, not on whether the coin is anchored. If we view the magic as a simple action/reaction between the Coinshot and their target, the behavior we observe in the books is not preserved. There is a well defined physics model that deals with two objects interacting in a way that changes their velocities to a degree that's inversely proportional to their masses: elastic collisions. If we reframe this situation in terms of an elastic collision, then the allomantic strength term becomes not force but kinetic energy. A given allomancer's push strength is the amount of kinetic energy they can add to the system. What happens to the velocities of the components of the system is then subject to conservation of (the new, higher) momentum. This preserves the behavior we see in the books. (Actually a person's Steelpush strength would be delta-kinetic energy per unit time, but integrating over time is left as an exercise for the reader.) If you'd like a pseudo-concrete framework for thinking about this, imagine that the blue lines you see while burning Steel are tangible to the things at either end of them. Normally they are happy to simply change length to remain in contact with their endpoints, but when Pushed or Pulled, an Allomancer pours some Investiture into them and makes them grow or shrink with some amount of power. The line doesn't care where its center winds up, or how long or short it winds up being, it just knows how hard to push, and the end that resists less will be moved farther than the other. So to bring this back around to the question of whether your Push/Pull strength depends on your mass: Yes and No. There's some innate Allomantic Strength term that's independent of your mass, but in practice the things you can do with Allomantic iron or Allomantic steel are influenced by both your strength and your mass. (When you're trying to move yourself it's better to be lighter, when you're trying to move other things it's better to be heavier.)
  3. In the thread, The Most Useless Uses for Useful Powers, We had a Conversation about splitting someone in Half using the Surge of Gravitation. I didn't post this, But I though, that I could easily escape a Windrunner or Skybreaker Storing or Tapping Weight to Counteract the Gravity. Then I started wondering if that was possible. The Powers according to the Coppermind Wiki: So the Windrunner can increase or change the Gravity of a person, making them heavier or Lighter. Kaladin did this to himself in the duel in the Arena Lashing himself several times to another Duelist, effectively falling with Incredible weight onto the man. So, if Kaladin were to Lash Sazed Downwards a couple hundred times, could Sazed Store this 'Weight' in his Ironmind?
  4. I was reading the alloy of law annotations and I read this. Then, I was, as a Chemistry degree holder, thinking of a way that this could play out and be considered relatively consistent and scientific. These are the challenges. 1. You have to be able to break things with your weight. 2. He has to be able to move about normally. 3. It has to focus on mass. 4. He can't be bullet resistant. I think I know a way he could do that and have the science remain consistent to all of the agreed upon conditions. This is a non spoilery quote from WoR Rather than storing mass, what if feruchemy stored the signal of mass? The agreement of mass between the tiny preservation and ruin building blocks of the world? Because it wasn't storing real mass when a human or a bullet under the influence of a human hit it, their innate investiture and spirit would resist the feruchemy, as it would resist an iron push, and they would feel the weight increase or decrease to a lesser degree. An object or the floor would feel the full influence of the iron feruchemy as it lacked much spirit and had no reason to think the person was lying about their weight. A bullet, shot from a human, would be filled with the human's intent to kill, perhaps a small part of their soul, and would resist the feruchemy increase in mass and kill. This could be scientifically tested in a future book.
  5. I have seen a reoccurring theme in these forums in regard to the relationship between steel pushing/iron puling and weight. I am hoping I can dispel some confusion on the matter. I am hoping you can forgive me if I quote the book incorrectly I am transcribing from the audiobooks(Don't judge me. I drive a lot.) and don't have the texts to reference. I believe this whole idea comes from when Kelsier was training Vin. After they get in a pushing match. Kelsier Tells her, This I think has been interpreted to mean than heavier people have a stronger push. If you look to their first training session Kelsier has already explained quite clearly that is has to do with action and reaction. After Kelsier tells Vin not to get in a push matches, Vin recalls this earlier lesson and reasons, The reason for not getting into a push match with someone heavier is NOT because they are stronger pushers but because their body is a better anchor. Summary: weight has nothing to do with steel pushing strength. edit: added quote boxes
  6. I read the mistborn series while taking a class on calculus-based Newtonian physics, so I couldn't help but formalize a theory on how steel/iron allomancy would actually work. There has already been a topic on how weight is related to the strength of push/pulls, and you can read it here http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3307-weight-has-nothing-to-do-with-allomantic-pushpull-strength/?hl=%20allomancy%20%20mass%20%20weight. But I want to introduce a new theory (with a bit of math) that I think clears up a lot of the confusion. I'm not incredibly physics-savvy, so I explain something terribly wrong, I apologize. (For the sake of efficiency, when I say allomancy, I am referring specifically to Iron and Steel) The Force of Pushes and Pulls First, I am operating under the assumption that weight is only tangentially related to the force an allomancer can exert. Instead, it is actually the mass involved that is important. Weight is the force exerted on an object by the planet equal to the mass of the object multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity. Most people (including the mistborn characters) probably mean mass when referring to allomancy. So I came up with an inverse-squared formula to determine the force an allomantic push/pull can exert. F= (A x (m1 x m2))/(r2), where F is the resultant force, A is the coefficient of Allomantic strength (I'll get into this later), m1 is the mass of the allomancer, m2 is the mass of the object, and r is the distance between the two masses. (The force is positive for Lurchers, and negative for Coinshots). I based this off of the Newton's Law of Gravitation since the principles involved appear very similar to me. When the earth pulls on an object, the object is actually pulling on the earth with the same force. However, the earth has so much more mass than the object so it effectively doesn't move. If a much larger object, like another planet, were to come near the earth, then both it an the other planet would move towards it at noticeable speeds. And again, if a much more massive object, like the sun, where to come near the earth, you wouldn't see the sun move,, just the earth. This is very similar to how a Coinshot can send a coin flying, but be pushed into the air by a much heavier object. The coefficient of allomantic strength accounts for the varying levels of power between different allomancers. This variable changes depending on how hard the allomancer is pushing/pulling (i.e. by flaring). In this way, both the mass and strength of the allomancer are important to the amount of force he/she can exert. Both the allomancer and the object are affected by the same force, but the less massive object accelerates much faster. The force also decreases quadraticaly as the distance between the object and allomacer increases. So I did some math the figure out about what this coefficient of allomanctic strength would be...and kept doing things wrong. At first I made the mistake of assuming a coinshot was pushing on a coin in free space, which resulted in a Coinshot strong enough to move planets. Then I tried having him push against the mass of the planet, which came out to him being ridiculously weak. I finally realized that when you are pushing off of a coin, your effectively pushing off a certain amount of ground, not the entire planet. I have no idea how you would calculate the mass of the ground however, so my formula is now un-provable without some more concrete measurements of allomancy . Feruchemical Iron This theory requires some pretty weird physics concepts. There's been a lot of discussion about what is actually stored with Feruchemical iron, but I think this theory coveres it pretty well. Basically, there are two different measures of mass: gravitational mass and inertial mass. Gravitational mass affects the gravitational field exerted by an object, and also how it is affected by other fields of gravity. Inertial mass is how much an object resists changes in motion. So far as we know, the two values are the exact same for any object and are functionally the exact same concept, in the real world. However, in the Cosmere, it appears you can change one without changing the other. I propose that Feruchemical iron merely stores the feruchemist's inertial mass. This means that nearly every force will affect the feruchemist as though they had gained more mass when the feruchemist is tapping, and vice-versa for storring. Gravity, however, affects the feruchemist the same as normal. The difference is, say when the feruchemist jumps while storring, the force of the jump affects him much more, with gravity affecting him the same, resulting in a much higher jump. Similarly, while falling, drag affects the feruchemist much more, resulting in a slower fall. This also solves the issure of the feruchemist suffering not crushing themselves while tapping, because their atoms become more resistant to motion in direct correlation with the increase of inertial mass. This increase in inertial mass would also factor directly into my above equation for allomancy. Since the force is directly proportional to the mass of the allomancer, tapping iron results in a greater force, both on the allomancer and the object. However, the increased force accelerates the allomancer the same as normal force the allomancer is now proportionately more resistant to motion. Now a potential hole in my theory is that the reverse should also be true. Decreasing your inertial mass would make forces affect you more, but would also reduce the strength of your Push/Pull. In the AoL, Wax is more affected by Pushing while storing Iron, and I can't figure out how to account for this mathematically... I wanted to have a bunch of physics and math extrapolated from this...but most of my calculations were really flawed.... Anyway, thoughts? Criticism? Any real physicists who wants to tell me I explained this all wrong?