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Found 13 results

  1. After listening to the podcast a few weeks ago (the link is below), I thought of another possibility for the locations of the missing Shardblades. The Sons of Honor have already been mentioned I believe, but what if the Vorin Church itself is stockpiling old radiant blades? OK, to clarify, the whole church probably wouldn't be in on it. But what if some very high members or specific devotaries kept a stash hidden away? We know there are groups that want to return the power of the Church (yes, the Sons of Honor are kinda dumb but it is their goal) and that the church once tried to take over the world during the Hierocracy. What would really help a group that wants world dominance? Yup, Shardblades. Good supporting evidence for candidacy that I see: Big enough group that could potentially hide all these blades and keep them secret Influential enough to convince people to hand over Shardblades Has been around long enough to have plenty of time to accumulate blades Hierocracy supports idea that church would 1) have to at least have some blades to be a threat and 2) have a reason to gather as many blades as possible There is a lot we don't know about them, so plenty of room for surprise secrets (This is additional evidence that I forgot about until a couple days later. It is part of another post a few lines down, but I'll include it here as well.) We also know that Taln showed up to Kholinar with his Honorblade. By the time he got to the Shattered Plains it was switched with a normal blade. We can assume it wasn't switched on the way since Bordin would have noticed if it had been switched out. The most likely time to switch it out without being noticed would have been right after Taln arrives. Who would have had access to Taln right away? The ardents of the Vorin Church who take care of madmen. If they did switch it out they used a Shardblade that there was no record of, which supports the idea that they could have a stockpile. Problems (and potential ways around them): If they had so many Shardblades during the Hierocracy, how were they defeated? (There may have been internal conflicts or they didn't have as many blades as they do currently) If there is a group in the Vorin Church that has Shardblades and wants power, they would probably be closely associated with the Sons of Honor. If this is the case, why wouldn't Amaram (a influential member) already have a Shardblade and instead need to murder a bunch of soldiers to get one? (Giving Amaram a Shardblade may have raised suspicions since the history of blades and plates is very closely tracked.) So what do you think? Likely option? I'm not 100% sold on this at all because we really have no idea at all, but I think there is enough evidence for it to at least be an option.
  2. Hello and welcome, I don't post theories or interpretations very often but this is one that I wanted to get off my chest. Ashyn isn't the Tranquiline Halls, Roshar is. Now, very quickly, I want to make sure that I am not misinterpreted: I am not claiming that humans did not come from Ashyn, the vast majority of humans on Roshar are descended from Ashynites that fled their self-caused cataclysm. What I am claiming is that the Vorin mythology of humanities fight for the Tranquiline Halls is originally a singer tale, co-opted by humanity and twisted into their own theology. So, I just want to establish the mixing of cultures that has occurred between humans and singers on Roshar. I only have 2 (Maybe 2.5) examples of this. I wish I had more but I feel we don't know enough about old singer culture to say what came from them other than what we have been told directly. 1. Human use of the term Voidbringers This ones an easy one, Eila Stele shows that singers were the first to refer to humanity as Voidbringers during the first Desolation. We actually also have a little of the opposite happening, with Listener songs describing humanity in a very similar way to the way Midnight Essence are described. Eshonai mentions this in the prologue: 2. Humans took the singer names From Leshwi and Moash's conversation: So what we see here is humanity on Roshar seems to have adopted some of singer culture, intentionally or not. The Tranquiline Halls So, the tale of the Tranquiline Halls has the following as it's main points of belief: Humanity is not native to Roshar Humanity was forced out of their old home by an invading force of Voidbringers When a human dies, their soul sticks around, they are given super powers and get sent to fight for the Tranquiline Halls The Heralds are leading the fight Now, points 1 and 4 we can trace in human culture. We know humans are not native to Roshar, we see Jezrien telling the people this lie in Oathbringer: But where do points 2 and 3 come from in Vorinism? What are the origins of these parts of their belief? Humans weren't pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers. Humans don't die, get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers. But you know who does? Singers were pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers. When singers die, they do get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers. Humanity took the singers world, their god, their names and even their religions. In Vorin myth, Ashyn would be the Tranquiline Halls. In reality, it's Roshar. Thank you for reading.
  3. I was looking at all the herald's chapter arch pictures (is there a name for those things?) on the Ten Essences page the other day, and I managed to convince myself that Pailiah is, or used to be bald. Here they all are, spoilered for space: Pailiah, conveniently, is at the 12 o'clock position on the wheel. I always assumed that the lines radiating outward from her head were just a representation of her hair, but I no longer think that's the case. Looking at every other herald, there's a pretty clear distinction between the background pattern in each section and the head/hair/hood/etc of the herald. With access to the illumination surge she could appear however she wanted, but maybe she wanted to be bald most of the time? With her divine attributes being learned and giving, it wouldn't surprise me if she's considered a patron of the ardents as a whole along with Ishar. Maybe that's where the tradition of ardents always having a shaved head comes from? This is probably nothing and is really minor even if it is correct, but I'd be curious to know what anyone else thinks!
  4. So, going through Oathbringer a 2nd time, I have noticed some things that lead to a new direction of speculation for the possible cause of the Recreance, and I think THIS MIGHT BE IT! There is another great thread on the cause of the recreance here, but I think that this is a different enough theory that it should have it's own thread. From the very edifying, yet not quite satisfying talk between Dalinar and the Stormfather in Chapter 38, Broken People (emphasis is mine): My feeling here is that the Stormfather is LYING. Specifically the part in BOLD RED from the above passage. From Vorinism we know that the highest calling is the Martial calling, and the reason this is the highest calling is because Soldiers will be needed to take back the Tranquiline halls in the afterlife. This always struck me as kind of a dumb basis for a religion, but whatever, I thought it also kind of a neat foundational precept for a warmongering people, which the Alethi most certainly are. Now the big reveal from OB was that Humans were the ones that came to Roshar and brought their God Odium with them. What if, and this is the big Duhn Duhn Duhn moment, the spren that are Voidbringers, the ones who come and Fuse with the Singers are really good Vorin super soldiers from the afterlife that have been corrupted by Odium. Vorinism seems like a great religion to train and shape a people that, unfortunately due to the bad luck of the draw on which shard got their planet, they happened to get tied great cosmic wheel of Rebirth to fight perpetually. Maybe, when people give themselves to Odium (like Amaram, like Moash) they create a bond that is similar to the Nahel bond, and after their body perishes their cognitive and spiritual beings can be recycled in the great Odium war machine. What if Vorinism is the first native religion of the people that brought Odium to roshar? Could this be the ancient ancestors of the Alethi? So Honor and Cultivation created a set of Deathless champions, likewise bound the cosmic wheel of perpetual death and rebirth to keep the Ghostly forces of Odium at bay. But, the native spren of Roshar saw the heralds (and probably, overtime the ideals symbolized by the heralds became Sapient spren) and these spren were able to bond with the humans. So here is the kicker, what if the Nahel bond makes one more susceptible to be corrupted by Odium? What if also, when a Radiant dies, due to the Nahel bond, Odium can claim them too for his legion of Deathless warriors? What if the true reason for the Recreance is really that the Voidbringers are composed largely of Fallen Radiants, and that radiants that realize that if they keep fighting they can end up as Odium's newest recruits? There is that part in the Epilogue where Hoid casually mentions how he had danced with one of the Fused before, would he likely have danced with one of the Ancient listeners? Another supporting detail is that some of the Fused are more awake than others ("EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MIND."). Why would this be if it was just the first and foremost leaders of the Singers that were the voidbringers? More likely, those that proved their skill in battle but fell, Odium claimed, and got fresh recruits each Desolation. He might have even claimed them from both sides (but I think it more likely that he is just able to claim HIS people). Love to hear what y'all think.
  5. I'm reading through WoR again and I found a couple interesting things of note. First, in Eshonai's interludes she visits her mother who equates the Unmade with the Listener gods, which, I believe, is now common knowledge to the 17th Shard. However, early in Shallan's Middlefest flashback (chapter 45 for those who are curious) she encounters a sort of bird ( the merchant calls it a chicken) that can talk. This is what she says: “Jeksonofnone,” the creature said. Shallan jumped back. The word was mangled by the creature’s inhuman voice, but it was recognizable. “A Voidbringer!” she hissed, safehand to her chest. “An animal that speaks! You’ll bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.” I was under the impression that the Unmade were relatively unknown to the "uninitiated," you might say. But here is Shallan, the daughter of a minor rural lord in a somewhat isolated corner of Jah Keved, showing that she is aware of the Unmade and at least some connection between them and the Voidbringers. My question is, how much do the common lighteyes and darkeyes actually know of the Unmade? Taravangian obviously knows something, but he's more ...involved... than most. How does Vorinism view the Unmade, and how much is accurate? I'm well aware that even among the 17th Shard, information is quite limited, but I am curious as to the common knowledge of the Unmade as far as the average person in Vorin society.
  6. A Year or so ago, when I reached a natural stopping point reading Stormlight 2, i started wondering about Alethi society in general, and specifically gender roles in vorinism. (Ohh god, i sound like a judgemental feminist crusader already. It shouldnt be like this, should it?. I assure you that my reasons for pondering this are purely academic.) I send this question as an E-mail to Brandon, but got the "Dear Fan" letter, with a whiff of RAFO. Thus, i am posting it to the community: Vorinism splits skills and occupation into male and female, we call those male and female arts. While fighting and politics are supposed to be male, all writing (except for a small selection of glyphs, which could be argued are more labels and heraldry than real writing) is female. While minor rules like male/female food are being ignored (Shallan ignores it at least once with little hesitation), the bit about writing being female, seems to be observed through all echelons of Alethi society, right up to Dalinar, arguably the most powerful vorin person alive. I cant remember a Veden example either. Kabsal is an ardent, so he doesnt count either, especially since ardents are specifically barred from holding positions of power. At the same time however, virtually ALL military and ( more importantly) political posts are being held by men. The only exception to this are, naturally, scribes and.. what we would call... personal assistants? Alethkar, by all appearances practices agnatic primogeniture. Correct me if i am wrong but The line of succession is presented as: Gavilar, Elohkar, Dalinar and i presume Adolin. Jasnah has never been considered a candidate despite being 8 years his senior, being arguably just as fit a ruler as him (perfect is a word actually used to describe her). [This point is a bit shaky, since she cannot be a warrior, but still]. All the military officers (even the Alethi equivalent of "desk sergeants" i believe) are male, so are all the Highprinces. Aesudan may be considered an exception (as she "manages the kingdom in Ehlokars absence"), however, it is very clear that she is a queen consort, not a queen regnant, and what little we know of her, makes her look more like a early 20th century American socialite than a ruler. Furthermore, to me, Vorinism seems ( not quite as much as Confucianism, but similar) to be more of a philosophy than a religion. Also (unlike with, say, the shin) there seems to be little fear of divine punishment. Shallan doesnt think of her eating male food as sin and breaks that rule in a heartbeat, and covering her safehand is more a matter of modesty and habit than actual fear of reprisal. And not many instances of actual divine intervention are mentioned ( i can only remember Syls disappearance after Kaladin broke his vow - which has little to do with the issue here.) Yet written communication is not a small matter for ruling a country as advanced as Alethkar, or commanding Alethkars prized military, or gathering intelligence. This means that every powerful vorin man must completely entrust his scribes with all kinds of sensitive information ( intelligence reports, military orders, royal decrees, tax and census data etc etc) without being able to verify them. That strikes me as highly dangerous in an environment like the Alethi court and war council, to say the least. The books do comment on that problem: In one train of thought, Dalinar himself doubts the honesty of his scribes, and people di try to fill scribe positions with family members and wives/daughters of loyal retainers, but still, this paradox is jarring: Imagine being in a position of power while all your information is essentially hearsay. Even if Alethi use seals (and similar devices) to verify documents, their contents are still subject to dishonest scribes who read them aloud. Instead of an elaborate forgery, all it takes is one bribed scribe. So it is really hard to imagine that at least some shrewd Highprinces ( lets say Sadeas or Sabariel) havent secretly learned how to read and write. [ If Alethi has an alphabet, this is relatively easy. If however, Alethi consists of logograms (like Chinese), this will take considerably more effort, so that would be an argument against it. Knowing Brandons habit of dipping into Asian culture, this isnt unlikely. ] I apologize for this long post, but i d like people with more knowledge of the books ( and more guilt-free leisure time) give me their opinions on this. Or maybe i just overlooked something in the books, and all that was one big inane exercise.
  7. So we learn that the Heirocracy was an out of control, corrupt preisthood opressing the people and the Sun Maker cast down the arrogant Heirocracy and freed the people of Vorin Roshar from the twisted Dogma of the Vorin Church. Here is the entire entry in the Coppermind for the War of Loss; Who was the Vorin Church before the War of Loss? Who won the war? Who told this version of the story? Cui bono? I think the post Recreance Vorin church emerged from the servants, priests, and remnants of the Radiants. I think they stepped into the leadership gap left by the Recreance of the Radiants. Who steps in when the most powerful class in a society, a class that functions as the priests, leaders, generals, scholars, artists, champoins, judges, and heroes of the society, a class that is bound by supernatural oaths to act honorably stops functioning. Someone needs to step in. And the most logical choice initially would be the people closest to the Radiants. I also think that once those people gained power they would try to keep it and therefore try to associate themselves with the Radiants of old while distance themselves from the Recreant Radiants, they would try to hide information. When the Roman empire collapsed in the west the highest power left was the Roman Catholic Church and the church became the power in western Europe. Just like the Nobility of Europe chaffed under the Roman church, I think the nobility of Eastern Roshar didn't like being underneath the Vorin Church. Side note: I don't think being Lighteyed means anything except that the Radiants had Light Eyes and were maybe called Light Eyes and I think the Nobility became those who had lighter eyes through a misunderstanding and because they associated themselves with the Radiants and shardbearers all having lighter eyes, but not Light eyes like the Radiants. I think that the War of Loss was a Civil war between the first estate, the clergy of the Vorin Church who were in charge, and the second estate, the Nobility. I think the Sunmaker was an Alethi Prince who subjugated, allied with, and persauded the other Alethi Nobility to help him overthrow the Priests to elevate the Nobility over the priests. I don't think it was a high minded war for freedom of thought, I think it was a petty war to see who got to be in charge. And in a move that imitated the enslavement of the Listeners after the last Desolation, the Nobility enslaved the priests and used them to tell their version of history where the church was lying and hiding things from the people (although this may be partially true). It was just a power struggle between the Nobility and the Priesthood. Not that the Priesthood would have been any better than the lighteyes. Kaladin, Sigzil, and Moash's discussions on what would happen if the darkeyes overthrew the lighteyes, the Babatharnum and their eldest rule society illustrate this. I just want to point out that the war probably wasn't what the lighteyes say it was and that we should look at who is telling history and why they would tell it how they tell it.
  8. So, this is silly, but I can't help but wonder... In Vorin cultures, is the safehand always the left hand, or can it be just the off-hand? I think I recall a brief WoB about it simply being the left hand, but then what's a Vorin leftie to do? I wonder if the Vorin culture has any superstitions about left-handed people. ...Thoughts?
  9. So I was reading The Way of Kings for the 7th or 8th time, and in the prologue, Kalak doesn't want to go back because he will end up "Back to that place he dreaded. Back to that place of pain and fire." In the devotaries, they say the men who are the best at their Calling will help the Heralds take back the Tranquiline Halls in the afterlife. If the heralds are sent to a place like Hell in between Desolations, they would not be able to fight to take the Tranquiline Halls. Any thoughts?
  10. Adding on to my Chasm Duty scene I made a few days ago (which can be found here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/20625-lego-chasm-duty-scene-way-of-kings/ ), I've made an ardent and chull scene. Picture 1: General Overview of the scene. Picture 2: Directing rod (to use on chull's antennas), Ardent, and saddle, respectively. Picture 3: SIde view of the chull Picture 4: Is it a chull? Is it a boulder? That's all for now.
  11. Tranquiline Halls theory/ Warning Spoilers for TwoK, Mistborn Series, Elantris, Warbreaker Ok I have a theory for the Cosmere. So in TwoK "Vorinism taught that the finest warriors would have the holy privilege of joining the Heralds after death, fighting to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls". Right? Here is my theory In all of the other books in the Cosmere that I have read life after is mentioned as a real place. as seen below in Warbreaker, Elantris, and The Hero of Ages. "He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity." Sanderson, Brandon (2009-06-09). Warbreaker (Tor Fantasy) (p. 629). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. "“Over there,” Karata said, pointing at the far end of the rectangular room, where the wall held only a single mural. It depicted a large mirrorlike blue oval. An Elantrian stood facing the oval, his arms outstretched and his eyes closed. He appeared to be flying toward the blue disk. The rest of the wall was black, though there was a large white sphere on the other side of the oval." Sanderson, Brandon (2007-04-01). Elantris (p. 281). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. page 281-283 Elantris A note that Sazed left on the back of the flower picture of Kelsier's.[1] It is addressed to Spook and mentions Kelsier, Goradel, Rashek, Ruin and the rest of Kelsier's crew. The first paragraph talks about Vin and Elend, and it is revealed that there are 2 extra metals, Bendalloy and Cadmium, yet to be discovered. "“Spook, I tried to bring them back, but apparently fixing the bodies doesn't return the souls. I will get better at this with time, I expect. However, be assured that I have spoken with our friends, and they are quite happy where they are. They deserve a rest, I think. " My theory is what if the old belief of Vorinism is true in a way what if something did happen to the spiritual realm or the heaven of the Cosmere and now there is really going to be a fight to reclaim it? What if that fight takes place or starts on Roshar. Just an idea, but I would like your thoughts on it. Politely please I know my grammar is not so hot.
  12. Hi all, This is my first time joining a site like this, but there is just too much going on in Brandon's series to not explode one's brain. Anyways, I have been rereading Elantris since I finished Words of Radiance, and I have been wondering if certain cultures/religions on Sel descended from Roshar. Also, I may have a few facts wrong, so please let me know if I remembered something incorrectly from Roshar's or Sel's history. Here are my thoughts: The Vorin Religion tried to take over the world (in essence). The Derethi religion is currently trying to. Vorin priests are called "ardents", while Derethi priests are called "arteths". Further, in Roshar it seems that several names have the "th" phoneme, which seems prominent with the Derethi. Vorinism worships Jezerezeh'Elin. Jezrien was a Herald of Honor, and later became the Stormfather, who seems to be in charge of the spren somehow (or at least the honorspren and windspren). In Sel, there is the Jesker religion. Jesker was believed to be the "overspirit", and the jesker religion involved spirits in general and being in harmony with nature. Furthermore, "Sel" and "Syl" are almost identical. So I have wondered if when the Heirocracy was ending, certain groups of Vorin followers traveled to Sel, and over time words such as "ardent", Jezrien or Jezerezeh, and Syl (which I believe was chosen for a reason, not just because Syl liked it) devolved into arteth, Jezker, and Sel. The Derethi religion would have descended from the Vorins who thought that the church should rule absolutely. I realize that some of these points are thinner than others, but I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts. Thanks!
  13. I have a theory and while I think it might be a little obvious I don't think it's been brought up directly on the forums. Here's the gist. The Vorin church over the past 4500 year has been run and structured for the main purpose of confusing and corrupting knowledge of the Knights Radiant, the Desolations, and the Voidbringers. I also believe that this was due to the influence of Odium as any long term effort to hurt the people of Rhosar's chances to survive the final desolation could potentially be accredited to the Odious one. Furthermore their takeover of the Silver Kingdoms during the Hierocracy preceding the intervention of the SunKing was not folly, but their masterstroke. They were able to destroy practically all books or resources containing any knowledge of the past (except the library of Karbranth of course). Lets take a look at what we know about the church and how it's very structure prohibits the spread of knowledge. Devotaries are the main way by which pious Vorin's show their faith. A Devotary has each devotee devote themselves to ONE noble aspect of the church. The male arts are brute and mostly involve fighting, since the church teaches that the greatest calling a man can fulfill is to be the greatest of warriors and to ascend to the Tranquiline Halls and reclaim them for man. This Devotion caused men to hold no interest in scholarship, lighteyed males had better rule a town/halmet/city/territory get to war or become and ardent, that is what is proper. They have no desire to read or gain knowledge of the past, reading is a shameful activity for a man, better to have a proper lady read to you. Even the amount of reading that Dalinar has pursued caused court gossip, thoough the fact that the book is the Way of Kings doesn't help. The female Devotary arts are mostly art (painting, music, poetry, embroidery) and scholarly pursuits, but a real lady should try to stick to the flowery ones since the most prominent scholars tend to become Heretics like Jasnah Kholin (I'm just riffing here some of this isn't explicitly said but are either implied or are the feelings I get from reading) {Also I don't agree with the sexist nature of this I'm just talking like an Alethi here). What they've done is separate those with Power (Men, Warlords, High Princes) from those with knowledge (Women, Scholars, Artists ) . Now I know a good light eyes couple will always be paired up, but even in this context the females are hiding knowledge in simple messages and texts with footnotes that men don't know about. And what men can read? Ardents can! And through this power they can have a greater influence on history. **Spoiler Spoiler ** The distinction between Vorinism and Old Vorinism is the reverence of the KR and the Heralds. They were venerated once and now are thought of as betrayers. Now the Recreance sure didn't help this, but a huge shift in trends like this needs some kind of push to get things going. Then it needs a stealthy hand to guide it on the right track. This is how Over the years, possibly without the entire churches overt knowledge, they could quietly secret away bits of lore and knowledge until we get to the current model of understanding about the past (not much that's accurate). Now if it is a smaller subset of the church driving this, it could be that during the Sunmaker's destruction of the Heirocracy, this piece of the church would need to completely break off to survive. They wouldn't disappear however they'd become ... The Ghostbloods. Do they have a secret library of old world knowledge? Is it the library of Karbranth? Tune in for WOR and hope we find out! I'm kind of running out of steam now so I'll come back later with some references and the like. But I think this is an interesting topic of pursuit and I hope it sparks some conversation.