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Found 14 results

  1. Nergaoul is red according to the coppermind While every other unmade that we have seen, either in the physical realm or the cognitive has been black. Ashertmarn - black - Re-Shephir - black - Sja-Anat - black - But Yelig-nar is different while all of his form is black in shadesmar, when he enters a host in the physical realm the eyes of the host turn red. Note: While we haven't seen Dia-Gonarthis, he is sometimes called the black fisher. But red investiture in the Cosmere is corupted investiture. But a lot of Odiums forces are red. I would like to thank for pointing this pattern among voidspren and Fused alike as well. Some of his spren are golden but the others are red, Ulim, stormspren, and Fused eyes. In Oathbringer there is even a quote where Pattern is translatting an Ashspren for the hero's and says, "There are many varieties, she says. Some of golden light, others are red shadows. Curious yes." In all all lot of Odium's own forces are red which means they are corrupted, then some spren are golden, and then finally most of his Unmade are black, but Odium's own investiture is golden and violet not black (as black is ruins color) so what is happening. And why are all but a few of his forces wrong.
  2. What are the Thunderclasts? From Dalinar's flashbacks we see a Corrupted spren dive into the stone under the Purelake and afterwards a Thunderclast rises from the lakebed. In Thaylen City, Venli describes the Thunderclast as twisted Singers. Which one is it, are they Voidspren or are they like the Fused, once Singers but then changed by Odium?
  3. So I just wanted to throw this out there, I have been wondering about the mental autonomy of Voidspren. There exist many, like screamers, which don't show that they really think, just react and I accept that these can be the spren of Odium, but I don't think this accounts for spren like Ulim. They mention they have eyes like the Shin and often default to human form. Odium is shown to be able to take either shape of Listener or Human so I don't know why they wouldn't get that option if they are merely from Odium. To counter the Oathpact, some of the Humans that sided with Odium at the beginning might have asked to be turned to spren so they could come back, exist, affect, and bond with others to grant power. Their anger intact they will urge and sometimes control other creatures but I am not saying they have taken listener forms yet. I was just trying to also understand why Kaladin was able to kill one, when defending Gavinor, and we have never heard of the death of a spren before. I feel like they might have accidentally killed one with a shard blade before this accidentally at one point, especially with how many spren chill on a battlefield. I just wanted to get this down, sorry it is disjointed but feel free to weigh in however you would like!
  4. So, as I read Chapter 31 and met the "Flying Fused" (trademark pending) - the voidbringers who chased Kaladin into the air - I had to remind myself which two surges Windrunners had again. Well I keep a folder on my PC with all kinds of pics, charts, and the like related to Cosmere novels. When I went digging for a surgebinding chart, I also came across something I downloaded in 2014 named "Voidbinder Chart." Then I realized that the symbols on that chart matched one that I had misnamed as "Surgebinding Chart." So I realized that it was actually a VOIDBINDING CHART! I have attached both files for your viewing pleasure. ← Voidbinder Forms ← Surgebinder Types / KR Orders Kaladin's exploits in Chapter 31 show us that there is a voidbinder analog to windrunners (or Skybreakers). You'll notice that the surge glyphs on the voidbinding chart corrupt the symmetry of the surge glyphs on the surgebinding chart by bisecting them along the vertical axis, rotating the left side along the horizontal axis, and putting them back together. For example... The idea being that there is a relationship between voidbinding and surgebinding. I'm suggesting that the relationship is that each of the magic systems operate along similar pathways resulting in a similar expression of the magic. The difference is what is powering the magic, or in more precise terms, whose investiture is powering the magic. However, no matter where it comes from something about Roshar is going to force the investiture to follow along a predetermined pathway. I imagine this is similar to how some appliances can accept batteries or power via an AD/DC adapter, no matter how the electrons are supplied, they will be sent through the circuitry to achieve the same result (of course there's no alternative to electrons when powering electrical appliances, whereas there are 16 different sources of investiture in the Cosmere). So, maybe a Mistborn example would be better... Highlight for Mistborn spoiler: Ruin's investiture (via hemalurgy) affected metal in ways that were in line with the powers granted by Preservation's investiture (via allomancy) on Scadrial; that is, you have to use a steel spike to steal a coinshot's abilities and you have to use a copper spike to steal memories. There are some oddities, but you get my point. There's also a blending of the two shards' investiture that resulted in a balanced blend of both powers (i.e. Feruchemy). So, similar to the Mistborn magics, the Rosharan magics operate along similar lines no matter which Shard's investiture is powering the magic. Obviously there will be important differences between the magic powered by the blended investiture of Honor & Cultivation (i.e. surgebinding) and that powered by Odium's investiture (voidbinding). I suspect that voidbinding is the literal opposite of surgbinding (it accomplishes the same effect in a opposite manner - if surgebinding pushes, then voidbinding pulls and vice versa - but that's a different post. The question is whether voidbinding is the analog of Feruchemy (a mix of all three shards' investiture) - a result that works well assuming that the voidspren are corrupted or fallen radiant spren - or whether voidbinding is the analog of Hemalurgy (the magic that comes from only/mostly Odium's investiture). Regardless, I think I've proved a solid connection between voidbinding and surgebinding and that it should result in voidbinders resembling surgebinders. Again, the flying voidbringers in chapter 31 strongly support that conclusion. However, that leaves two "problems"... One is the yellow spren and the other is which surgebinders resemble StormForm. I don't think the yellow spren is a problem so much as it supports my theory. Let's put the questions about her to bed... That leaves the question of which order of the KR is analogous to StormForm. Well, my best guess is that StormForm is likely to match the powers of the Dustbringers/Releasers. StormForm released the Everstorm. Lightning isn't that different from fire and the essence associated with Chach is spark. However, I'm not completely sure that I'm right because we haven't seen much from Malata yet. Here are my best guesses: 1. Windrunners → ??? 2. Skybreakers → Smokeform - Kaladin's pursuers in Ch. 31 3. Dustbringers → Stormform * 4. Edgedancers → ??? 5. Truthwatchers → Nightform 6. Lightweavers → Mediationform 7. Elsecallers → Scholarform (?) This may or may not be a form of power. 8. Willshapers → ??? 9. Stonewards → Decayform * 10. Bondsmiths → ??? * Stormform could very easily be the Bondsmith analog with the storms and stuff; they also seem to be guiding/leading the non-Fused parshmen in Ch. 31 * I'm really not sure who matches up with Decayform since the details about them are so vague in the song about them from WoR. I based by guess on this line: "Watch where you walk, your toes to tread. O'er hill or rocky riverbed" It just sounds like stone/walking on stone is involved here. That's it. Let me know what you think!
  5. I just realized this, but after Part 1 of Oathbringer, we never see Yixli again. When Moash (*spit*) is pulling the cart and runs into the Parsh that Kaladin was with, they complain that they got put on pulling duty while Yixli got off scot free, but I don't believe that she's mentioned again after that. It's kind of strange to see, and I'm kind of disappointed that there wasn't more substance in the character or her interactions with other characters (Kaladin, the Parshmen, or Moash), since she basically shows up, walks around accusingly, apparently vouches for Kaladin with the Fused, and then is complained about. That's pretty much it, I was hoping for more interaction there. Knowing Brandon, I doubt that this is the last we'll see of her, but it raises a bunch of other questions. Exactly what kind of spren is she? Did she know that Kaladin was a radiant? If she did, why did she vouch for him with the Fused? When I finished part 1 originally (in the free chapters), I was toying around with the idea of whether a voidspren could switch sides, so is it possible that could be something going on there? We've already seen most of the highspren we've met and at least one ashspren (Spark) switch from Honor to Odium, a corrupted lightspren (Glys) stay with Honor, and possibly seen Sja-Anat switch from Odium to Honor, so maybe there could be some shuffling in the future? Of course, this is all coming from literally 2 on-screen appearances and 1 mention, so I may be overly speculating, but I would be very surprised if Brandon just dropped this thread.
  6. Just curious what people think about this. As far as I can remember, the Fused and the rest of Odium's forces fight with regular, mundane weapons. We also see them trying to get their hands on as many Shards as possible. While this could be a matter of simply disarming the humans, they seem to think those weapons would be very useful. Why don't Odium's forces have magical weapons of their own? Have we just not seen any yet, or are they limited from making them somehow? Can voidspren not become Shardblades because a Nahel-like bond is required? Or maybe that "ability" is something specifically related to Honor (+Cultivation?), which spren related to Odium are unable to do? If either of these were not the case, I'd think Odium would be commanding some of his Voidspren to serve as weapons. Maybe voidspren can't become Blades for whatever reason. Is there not some other way they could be making similar weapons? Invested weapons that are a more serious threat? Something to give Odium's forces an upper hand? Thoughts?
  7. Why Odium needs to kill all humans to leave Greater Roshar has bugged me since I joined the Shard in 2014. This is my third or fourth attempt to answer that question. Theory Honor has bound Odium’s Investiture into the “hearts of men.” Odium must destroy Roshar’s human population to free himself from Greater Roshar and recapture his trapped Investiture. Analysis 1. I begin with @ROSHtaFARian2.0's interesting post about Ashyn and its bacteria-based magic. ROSHtaFARian2.0 concludes that magic comes from Honor and Cultivation, but others in that thread rightly (IMO) point out Odium was the god who came with humans to Roshar. This also fits the WoB that Odium came to Roshar after Honor and Cultivation. 2. A bacteria-based magic system comports with my theory of Odium’s magic. IMO, Odium breaks bonds to power his magic. Bacteria breaks down the human body. I think Odium Invested Ashyn’s bacteria to grant magic to Ashyn humans. 3. As ROSHtaFARian2.0 says, bacteria-based magic wouldn’t work on Roshar. Humans came there without magic. But they did come with Odium-Invested bacteria infecting their bodies. 4. I think Honor bound Odium’s Investiture to humans at some point, perhaps immediately on their arrival? Maybe he integrated the Invested bacteria into their bodies? Unclear. 5. This may explain why there are no Honor/Cultivation “Hatespren.” Human emotions spawn all kinds of spren, but we never see Hatespren, only Voidspren that personify Singer emotions. This seems odd to me. Perhaps human hate is internalized into Odium’s Investiture? That bit of Odium Investiture may also explain why Roshar’s humans are incorrigibly fractious.
  8. So, I recently posted in the chapters 22-24 reaction thread about Kaladin's conversation with the Voidspren and compared it to the conversation that Dalinar had with the Radiant in his first vision in WoK. After thinking about it some more, I felt that it deserved its own topic. Given the similarity between these two conversations, I suspect that the Voidspren was talking about Kaladin's potential as a Voidbinder, just as the Radiant was talking about "Dalinar's" potential as a Radiant. So, let's use that as our base assumption. Why then, could the spren not offer to bond Kaladin herself. Obviously, the Radiant couldn't make such an offer since he wasn't a spren, but that isn't really an issue here. There are three possibilities that I can think of: The spren was lying, so as to test Kaladin's reactions. The spren is the wrong type of Voidspren and therefore has to leave it to a different spren. The spren is already bonded to someone. I would like to focus on the third possibility here since I think that it's the most interesting, and it would explain something that otherwise doesn't make much sense. How is the spren sapient? Every other sapient spren that we have ever seen has either remained Shadesmar or has been bonded to someone. This even extends to other worlds. (Elantris spoilers) So, how can this spren be sapient? The obvious answer is that she's bonded to someone. In that case, who could she have bonded? There are no obvious candidates, after all. If we assume that the Voidspren bond acts anything like the Nahel bond, then, firstly, given her level of intelligence, she must have been bonded to someone for quite a while at this point (which rules out the listeners). And secondly, that person must be nearby in order for her to retain her sapience. But then how is it that we haven't seen this person? Well, the person in question has to be a Voidbinder, so an obvious possibility is that they are hiding themself by the use of Voidbinding. However, as we basically know nothing of what Voidbinding can do, I'll refrain from speculating on the precise mechanism that they are using to do that. Another possibility is that the Voidspren bond does not work precisely like the Nahel bond. Perhaps the way that the Radiantspren slowly awake to sapience is the result of Cultivation's influence, and in a system in which Cultivation plays no part, the spren instead awaken to full sapience immediately, in which case it could be as simple as one of the listeners being the Voidbinder. Or the Voidbinder actually isn't nearby at all. This possibility is far less helpful for making predictions than the former, unfortunately. In any event, I am intrigued by the fact the spren is interested in Kaladin. What does it say that there is overlap in the groups of people who are suitable to attract a Radiantspren, and people who are suitable to attract a Voidspren? And could it be that we have finally "seen" Voidbinding, as far as it is possible to see that which is hidden, at any rate?
  9. Can we talk about the Voidbinding chart now that Brandon has confirmed that theory? Seems like there's been a push lately that it's related to fabrials and all kinds of other stuff. Now that we have some direction, seems like a good time to take a step back and reevaluate in light of this news. I'm including the chart below (with the Shadesmar map, since they go together). Also going to list some of the key observations that I can remember. Then I've got a theory of my own to add. Chart: Observations: Note: I'm going to refer to everything on the chart as a "void-" version of whatever analogue is on the Knights Radiant chart. 1. The void-surge symbols are rotationally symmetrical versions of the normal surge symbols. 2. Many of the void-order symbols resemble the normal KR order symbols. 3. The void-Truthwatcher symbol is also horizontally and vertically symmetrical. It is also incredibly similar to the glyph that shows up on maps of Roshar (around compass roses, behind the R's of 'Roshar', and around the borders - see "Glyphs" link in my signature) 4. The void-Dustbringer symbol shows up in the corners of the artistic view of Kharbranth. 5. Lines connect all of the void-orders and void-surges just like they do on the KR chart, except (strangely) for the two in the center, which aren't connected to a void-surge. Just an artistic thing, or something more? 6. The two in the center are also set on an octagon (rather than a circle) and are shown above a red gem (rather than the clouds to the sides). This sets them apart from the other eight even further. 7. Do the circles around symbols bring Shadesmar-beads to mind? Or Gavilar's dark sphere? The void-orders also have a slightly pink/purple glow. 8. Background imagery: (storm?) clouds, lightning bolts (both yellow and blue/purple, an (infused?) red gemstone. 9. Border: Flames, especially in the corner? Woman with safehand covered implies she is Vorin. Perhaps this helps to date the image? (after the advent of safehand covering) Alternatively, it could be dated to some point in the future, beyond what we have read so far. 10. Shadesmar map: This is clearly meant to accompany the map of Shadesmar, implied by the visual similarity and the fact that the border around the two is rotationally symmetrical. The somewhat detailed information on Shadesmar implies the person who created this voidbinding chart had a greater understanding of Shadesmar than most people in Roshar currently do. This excerpt from the TWoK Ars Arcanum is also worth mentioning perhaps: Questions: Some questions that come to my mind... What IS voidbinding? Is a listener bonded to a voidspren a voidbinder? Or is bonding to voidspren just like bonding to any other spren, and voidbinding is more like surgebinder, but with specific voidspren? Can a human be a voidbinder? Or is this completely off... Is voidbinding more related to the ten deaths, Thunderclasts, the Unmade, or other things like this? Is it voidbinding to create these things, or is voidbinding what they do? Why the heck is the void-Dustbringer symbol on the Kharbranth map? And why is the void-Truthwatcher symbol plastered all over both new and old maps of Roshar? What's going on with the center of this chart? Lots of things separate out the middle two from the other eight. Anyways... Some musing of my own... It strikes me that voidspren might be "corrupted" versions of normal spren. This is based on the Dalinar vision where they are searching for a spren that "doesn't act right." If something like this is correct... what does that mean for void-Bondsmiths? Are there any viable "great voidspren" that can make voidbinders of that type? I've got a little baby theory stirring around in my mind. What if the reason void-Bondsmiths and void-Truthwatchers are cut off here is because they don't exist at the time of this chart?
  10. Eshonai is talking about these new rhythms that came when she assumed Stormform, which seems to be the result of a bond with Odium/Unmade/voidspren. Does this quote sound familiar to anything else in the cosmere? We know Odium was on Sel at one point and the Skaze seem to behave in an evil, influential way in their advisement of the Fjordell Empire, similar to these "new" rhythms Eshonai experiences on Roshar. Coincidence?
  11. I am aware of the deep discussions about the unmade, but I would posit a few new theories- To use a lame sport metaphor... FIRMLY IN THE FAIRWAY: (very well discussed and some documentation- arguing details about these would really just make this a necro thread) A. The name Unmade could mean 1. they were made, but are not now, or 2. they exist but were not "made". B. They exist now and still wield influence at least over mortals (Thrill, Death Rattles, etc). C. We have a WoB stating that they are splinters of Odium NOW. D. We know that the Parshendi (or other forms of Parshmen) were there before mortals and before heralds. We have a WoB stating that they were not made by Honor or Cultivation, and they are called the "Old People", likely they and spren were made by Adonalsium earlier. They bonded spren and had many forms that were not the "God forms" which betrayed them to Odium's control later (it could be argued to "Their Gods", not Odium, but is was really bad either way, and they did things they disliked so much that they preferred to become Dull rather than continue this way). Rolling into the Rough: (Where I want this discussion to start) a. in A above, calling them the unmade because they were never made doesn't make sense to me. So to call them the Unmade must be that they were not made the same as everyone else. I think this lends itself to mean not made by Honor or Cultivation. Since we know that they came before Oduim, we are left with the following theory options: 1. They were made earlier by Adonalsuim when the Parshendi were made. I think this is likely since they have "Their Gods" from an incredibly long oral tradition, and they felt betrayed by spren that bonded to them previously and subsequently bonded to Knight Radiant. OR 2. They were made later by Odium directly and brought to (born into) the world under his control (I think we know they are mostly under his control by the desolation scenes and other historical info, but we can't be sure) We do know that as slivers, they would be strongly influenced by his Aspect. b. We don't know who all of them are, what their influences are, or what damage they can do in the physical world. Obviously, they are tied to cognitive and Spiritual realms, affecting dreams, emotions, and when soul is leaving body. So how do they have access to men's minds in all three realms? Just taking advantage of a cracked spirit web implies they are specialized spren...could be. Are there deeper powers we do not have descriptions of yet? Likely. c. Is the Nightwatcher one of the Unmade, or do we assume she is because she is the mother of Midnight Essence? She is also called the mother of Wyndal's type of spren, is she not? Is the first statement really true or characters' perspective in story? This is a common misdirection by Brandon. d. When were the Unmade made Slivers? Was it at their creation? Were thy brought in, or were they taken over? (my favorite theory is the last, hence the ability to be treacherous to they other, like the Diagram mentions.) e. No other being is mentioned as good potentials for Early Parshendi Gods than the Unmade. They derisively refer to mortals thinking that the greatshells were their gods. So who else would that leave? Way in the Weeds: (Speculation with very incomplete education) I. Could these Unmade be old spren originally given other talents that helped the Parshendi? Now, their Gods are turned in purpose by Odium and they fear them and bond to spren to make themselves dull to fill cracks in their spirit webs and hide from their Gods? Or or the Unmade a different kind of entity (the Old Magic type?) that influence all being on Roshar. Were they built to destroy and punish, or to hint and supplement? Has their original focus for living changed, or is it consistent, just not understood by our characters? II. Can a Sliver actually turn against the intent of the Shard? Kelsier seems to have been able to... Was this what was hinted at by the Diagram or was it relating to the relation with the Parshendi? III. Will the Unmade be critical to the upcoming battles with the Parshendi, or will they be part of the New Desolation?. Do they care about a side, or just their dominion? Stuck in the Sand: (Wild speculation that likely will dead end, but might get lucky) --One of the Unmade turns and helps either the Parshendi or KR in the upcoming battles against Odium's forces. --They are spren bonded to Odium and invested to make them powerful Slivers, and the distraction of the treachery is part of Oduim's undoing, much like Kelsier Connected to Ruin helped end Ruin. --Unmade are the source of the strange bonds to the Voidbringer of various types, and are key to their return. --Cultivation can also influence Unmade as She once did before Odium, and uses them for purposes we do not yet have any visibility to. --The Unmade are the physical manifestation of things that do not really exist, and are no danger in the Physical realm, except what we fear (cognative of sprirtual) --Why does "The Unmade" sound a lot like "Those who died but did not"? Is there an initiation to the state that the IRE are in that might relate to the Unmade. I strongly doubt it, but made mention of it here. And with that, PLEASE use you best brilliance in giving ideas for GOOD therories on this. If you explained your idea well before, please just post the link for details. If you get brain cannons from this or have a completely undiscussed idea, this is where we want them! I salute you!
  12. So I was flipping through Words of Radiance and I noticed that the name of the spren that causes the death rattles is named Moelach. See Taravingian's POV chapter I-14 for more details. Mr. T describes Moelach in the Diagram thusly: "There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship." -Epigraph Chapter 82, page 986 hardcover edition According to the questions Brandon answered on, he based some of the Roshar magic system on the Jewish mysticism of Kabbalah. With this connection in mind, I realized that the name 'Moelach' sounds an awful lot like "Moloch", a Mesopotamian god mentioned several times in the Old Testament with a negative connotation as a foreign and false god. Moloch is rather infamous because according to the biblical text, worshippers would sacrifice children to Moloch's flames. But we're not done yet. In Mr. T's POV chapter, he brings up another evil spren named Nergaoul, who many readers think causes the Alethi Thrill: "The Thrill is at least as strong here as it is in Alethkar. Maybe stronger. I will speak to our scholars. Perhaps this will help pinpoint Nergaoul." -Chapter I-14, page 910 hardcover edition Well wouldn't you know it, but Nergal is also a Mesopotamian deity, also brought up in the bible. And Nergal is, among other things, a god of war. I don't think any of this is a coincidence. Are there any other mentions of the names of super spren? Also worth noting is that "Moloch" in Hebrew uses the same letters (מלך) as the word for 'King'. Not sure how deep Brandon got into this, but it is a bit funny that Mr. T went from Moelach to Kingship in the Diagram. Sources:
  13. Hey, i was just brainstorming about different connections and stuff when i thought of how in stormlight archive, the voidspren/odium were/was able to control the parshendi. I thought that this in a way might be related to ruin and how he could control (or influence greatly) anyone with a metal spike piercing them. I am just looking for thoughts and explanations on this topic, i like to know what people think. Another thing would be, if the 'evil' shardholders could control people/parshendi whom use the power that correlates to them, ex; voidspren and metallurgy. Why can't the opposite, or good shardholders do the same? I know that things like, "oh they are the good guys and wouldn't do that" would be a common response, but in the books, wouldn't it just be so much easier if Vin could at least hear preservation like she could ruin? These are just things that i wanted to say and see what people thought about them. Go ahead and post new questions if they kind of relate to this topic, i just want to learn more stuff and see what peoples opinions are.
  14. I hope I am not just repeating someone elses work, but theories have been flying very fast and a few searches found nothing. (Of course finding absolutely nothing leads me to believe I am doing it wrong.) In the way of kings, I thought Elokhar was seeing the same symbolheads that Shallan was seeing. However, Elokhar says he sees them in mirrors watching him, which is different from Shallan who sees them through her drawings. Elohkar says to Kaladin that he has stopped seeing the symbol heads around now that Kaladin is guarding him. Pattern also makes a statement to someone who called him a voidbringer that to see a voidbringer she needed to look in a mirror. Normally the "if you want to see something bad/evil, look in a mirror" is an insult intended to imply the bad person is the one making the comment. But, with Pattern's love of "true lies" he may be telling the truth while also being insulting, and that may mean that some form of voidspren were following Elokhar around. So, TLDR, I believe that what Elokhar was seeing in the mirror were voidspren who were watching him.