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Found 39 results

  1. I was wandering (and forgive me if anyone ever asked this) if Voidspren can manifest as Shardblades?
  2. Ok, this might take a little bit of time, but it's worth the preamble I think. Known facts: The Eile stella, written in dawn chant tells of the advent of the voidbringers, a people from a different planet whom the Gods of Roshar commanded the sentient beings who wrote the stella to take in. These voidbringers destroyed there home planet (most likely Ashyn) somehow through the use of the surges These people brought their god (Odium) with them. Humans are referred to by the stormfather as Sons of Honor (Kaladin, Dalinar, all very Alethi) There is an inworld myth told by Hoid about the origin of the Natan people's blue skin where a princess begets a child with Nomon, the blue moon associated with Honor. The yellow void spren have shin like eyes or have strange eyes. (Yellow also being the trademarked color of Odium) The void spren that Kaladin talks to, Yixli, is always walking on stone. When she wants to get up to eye-level with Kaladin she pushes herself up on a column of stone. The shin are a peaceful people that keep to there own section of Roshar, and use humility like Herdazians use bragging. The most revered citizens in Shinovar are the farmers, the least revered are those who pick up weapons (pretty interesting taboo, this). Mentioned in the same breath by Gavilar at the feast where Dalinar meets Evi for the first time are Sadees the Sunmaker, hopeful Alethi uniter of all Roshar and Shubreth-son-Mashalan, which I am pretty sure is a shin name. Now to add the suppositional meat to the known skeleton of the theory (the following is all total speculation): Suppose that when Honor and Cultivation invested Roshar, each brought their favorite form of life to this planet. Honor brought humans from Yolen, and maybe Cultivation used her investiture to create divergent forms of life (based loosely on humans) for Roshar. Honor is father to the humans and Cultivation created the Aimians, modified the human stock slightly to produce the Thaylens (might have a thing for long eyebrows) and the blue skinned Natans. The Singers were already on Roshar, they had been since the planet was created/formed by Adonalsium, but after the first influx of sapient higher forms of life, they interbred with the humans, resulting in Horneaters and Herdazians. The horneaters interbred with the original sons of honor (the alethi lets say) and you get the variety of life as it currently exists on Roshar. So, the humans and the Singers shared Roshar before the Voidbringers came, before the people of Odium who destroyed their own planet with powers they were unable to control, before the Shin came to Roshar. To accommodate the refuges from a broken planet, Cultivation carved out a special section of Roshar, and made it more like the planet that they fled, causing the Misted mountains to rise to block the force of the Highstorm, creating Shinovar. After resettling on Roshar, the Shin realized what their previous actions had done to their home planet and renounced the power of surges and instead developed a Pacifist religion, honoring mostly the shard of Cultivation, because her actions of Terra forming roshar (and creating Shinovar) saved her people. The shin, though, brought their god with them, and over time void spren began to develop as all cognitive thought on Roshar manifests as sentient beings. The voidspren realized that they could use the Gemhearts of the Singers to allow their god Odium to once again influence the world. Conflict always happens, borders are always disputed, ethnic diversity leads to ethnic clashing. War began to stir, and in this new war the Singers were granted forms of power by the now sapient voidspren. Honor saw what was at stake and splintered his power to create the honorblades for the heralds to marshal the forces of Roshar to stop the forces of Odium (at this point these would have probably been the Ancients of the Listeners and some secret Sect of Shin Odium worshipers, and maybe some secret Thaylen sect heavily into the Passions religion). Desolations come and Desolations go, the shin continue on in their pacifist non-interventionist mode (like switzerland, I wonder if there are nice places to ski in Shinovar), and the further removed they are from the initial planetary exodus, the more they begin to believe the lie that they are truly the peace loving people that tried to reforge themselves to be. What if Dai-Gonarthis, mentioned in the quote below: Is really head of the supreme council of the shin? The plural their implies a group, but Dai-Gonarthis is probably a god spren, one of the 3 god sprens perhaps, and possibly this Odium god spren can only bond to a shin. This might be the possible positive side to what otherwise seems like a HORRIBLE 5th ideal for Szeth (his crusade ideal) to cleanse the Shin of their false leaders as long as Dalinar Kholin agrees. There are a ton of unanswered questions after OB, but the shin have always struck me as, as Aragorn would say paraphrased a little, a people that look fair and feel foul. I have some ideas about how this all ties into the recreance, but want to see what you all think about this first.
  3. So in combing through @Extesian's awesome collection of WOBs (link included below the WOB), I found one that I hadn't seen before that I think has some pretty serious potential ramifications. I for one, am very underwhelmed by the official explanation for the Recreance. Here is the official explanation, as reenacted in Bill and Ted's Recreant Adventure: KR Bill: Dude, look in the mirror bro, there's the true voidbringer. (KR Ted performs the patented Keanu Reeve's "whoa" head shake) KR Ted: I know, we're like human bombs. Guess it's time to start killin' our spren. I've speculated about this before, but given the additional fact that a recently deceased Vessel makes it easier for practitioner's of that Vessel's magic to become Cognitive Shadows, leads me to more firmly believe that there is a different and more compelling reason for the Recreance. Namely that the Nahel Bond allowed Odium to keep the KRs from transitioning to the Great Beyond, and more to the point, allowed him to torture their souls on Braize until they cracked and became his willing servants (and if they don't crack, then he gets to torture them in perpetuity, which if you're the shard of Odious Hatred that's a win win situation). Here are some general considerations (sources for some are in referenced spoiler tags below): We know that the afterlife on Roshar is weird, and that Ancient Singer Cognitive Shadows can come back as the Fuzed. We know that the Nahel Bond was patterned on the Honorblades. How much of the function of the Honorblade was copied? Was the linkage to the Oathpact, i.e. a torturous trip to Braize after death, included in the package deal? The Fuzed don't seem to be using Voidbinding, instead they seem to be using hacked surgebinding fueled by voidlight. The Fuzed seem largely ineffectual, and seem to be the advanced guard of the Desolation. The only real heavy hitters to come out for this battle on team Odium were the Thunderclasts. Puuli, who I would nominate as the Shard of Schadenfreude, in his interlude talks of the ones that will come with light in their pocket to destroy, and refers to them as "sailors lost on an infinite sea".* In Shadesmar, before the battle of Thaylenah Fields, some mysterious spren that aren't gold or red (so neither voidspren or corrupted spren, but described rather as dark) are massed before the oathgate and are waiting to bond with the disillusioned yet soon to be Thrilled troops of House Sadeas. I think this is significant.** So here is the speculative chain, fully assembled. Humans were starting to bond spren in imitation of the Nahel Bond before the KRs were established. Honor was splintering in slow motion (possibly even since the inception of the Oathpact). The Singer's played Let's make a deal with Odium, and the Royals were created (cognitive shadows of the Ancient Singers). Just like the spren got bored of hanging around the Singers, Odium too tired of them (not very passionate those Singers) and began to harvest KR souls as Tanavast's slow death advanced in terminality, causing their increasing formation as Cognitive Shadows. KRs at some point before the Recreance figure out that the Nahel bond allows Odium to trap their soul in Braize and torture them until they break (like the Heralds). The KRs realize that by continuing to fight they are opening themselves up to eternal damnation and unwittingly strengthening Odium's forces, so they decide to voluntarily kill their spren and sever their Nahel bonds. The Cataclysmic event, foreshadowed in the Puuli interlude, is coming, where the broken KRs will come from the Origin of Storms and unleash biblical devastation on the land. Possibly Thunderclasts are really broken KR Stonewards (the essence for their order is Rock and Stone), and the ability of Thunderclasts to form their body out of stone is the only true application of Voidbinding that we have seen on screen. If this is the case, we can expect 9 more orders of Eldritch monster level bad-asses to form from their respective Order's Essences. I would hate to see a broken Voidbinding Bondsmith (made out of Meat/Flesh) or a broken voidbinding Lightweaver (made out of Blood, ehh, gross). This theory also has the benefit of having humans be the original and the current voidbringers, which I think is pretty slick, and the additional benefit of being a satisfying explanation for the cause of the Recreance. Interested to hear what you all think about this. 5. *Full quote of Puuli's interlude: 6. **Text from the Battle of Thaylenah Field about the "dark spren" (really relevant bits highlighted):
  4. “[T]here shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again.” - Exodus 11:6 The Wandersail story (WoK, Chapter 57) has a lot to teach us. To recap, Derethil goes looking for the “Origin of Voidbringers.” He finds the Uvara, “People of the Great Abyss,” who live on some islands surrounding a whirlpool. The Uvara brutally murder anyone who makes the slightest mistake, as they believe their emperor commands. When they discover that the emperor had been dead for years, the Uvara riot, committing even more atrocities, enraged and mortified that they themselves are responsible for their cruelty. Kaladin interprets the story as meaning he must take personal responsibility for his life and not blame circumstances or others. As Wit says, that’s one way to look at it. But there are other interpretations that have meaning for SLA: The Voidbringers are the Uvara. This view concludes that Odium’s influence leads people to do horrific things if they can avoid taking responsibility for them. “I was just following orders…” The Voidbringers are also Derethil and his crew. This view looks at Derethil like the serpent in Eden: he brings knowledge of good and evil to the Uvara, showing them their emperor is dead and the murders are their own. Could the “Origin” of Highstorms actually be the “origin of Voidbringers”? Very possibly (for reasons explained in another post I’m working on). The “Great Abyss” sounds like the “Void.” These are the People of the Great Abyss – people of the Void. Could the Great Abyss be Odium’s Shardpool (assuming he even has one on Roshar)? Shardpools are speculated to be associated with the Cognitive Realm according to the Coppermind. They are also believed to be worldhopping conduits like the Cognitive Realm. I and many others think Hoid periodically emerges from Cultivation’s Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks. If the Great Abyss is Odium’s Shardpool, that would explain one way his investiture circulates into Roshar.
  5. My read on this is that the Heralds tap out of torture time in Damnation/Braise then come to Roshar, presumably ahead of the Unmade to train new radiants. Then the Unmade come back, somehow power up the parsh (via BAM? void spren?) and fight the humans. Then, do the humans win when they defeat Odium's champion? Does that mean in the past? 'What does a win mean as far as what happens to the non-humans? (Not the wildlife) If Odium's champion loses, and all the Heralds are killed, do all the Unmade go back to Braise? Parsh warriors too? Or just the Heralds? Maybe the Unmade don't all die, they just jump to the Cognitive realm and then do the electric slide over to Braise? If the Unmade are cognitive shadows, some are less sapient and can be in the physical realm without a body/vessel and others more aware and sapient who need a body/vessel to operate (I guess they have all been seen on Roshar in "spren" form, just seems some are smaller versions of themselves as seen on Roshar vs larger versions as seen in the Cognitive realm, I'm talking more avl out being able to use powers, their form of void lashings, etc). Is Damnation in the cognitive realm? Because the Heralds are porting in their bodies, they aren't cognitive shadows. They are akin to worldhoppers, though a forced transfer rather than voluntary, but moving at the time of death and somehow when they tap out from Braise to Roshar. This seems to be predicated on the deal between the Heralds, Honor and Odium (and maybe Cultivation). But for the Heralds, is it a forced trip from spot a, to the cognitive realm, to spot b? T'aln certainly wasn't in any condition to wander through the cognitive realm. Kinda picturing Braise spren bouncers bodily dragging him through and then giving him a heave ho through a portal. And what about the parsh warriors/people? Since this is not a true desolation, we don't really know what's up with the "leftovers"; the parshendi/Listeners and parshmen. If the true desolation was ended, would the parsh people have left Roshar? Would they be devolved? If there was a true end to the last desolation, and if the parsh warriors of old were taken off world, would the current Listeners and parshmen have been affected (again, if the parsh get taken offworld) since they were either without spren, in dullform, or somehow affected by BAM's imprisonment and either voidsprenless, depowered, spiritually lobotomized, tweased, or had their Connection severed? Also, we know the Everstorm is new, so how did the Parsh get powered up back then in past desolations? Just BAM empowering? Did they have voidspren (seems likely), and then when Odium lost, what happened? The voidspren got flushed? The actual vessels/people/parsh went off world? arg!!!!!
  6. So, going through Oathbringer a 2nd time, I have noticed some things that lead to a new direction of speculation for the possible cause of the Recreance, and I think THIS MIGHT BE IT! There is another great thread on the cause of the recreance here, but I think that this is a different enough theory that it should have it's own thread. From the very edifying, yet not quite satisfying talk between Dalinar and the Stormfather in Chapter 38, Broken People (emphasis is mine): My feeling here is that the Stormfather is LYING. Specifically the part in BOLD RED from the above passage. From Vorinism we know that the highest calling is the Martial calling, and the reason this is the highest calling is because Soldiers will be needed to take back the Tranquiline halls in the afterlife. This always struck me as kind of a dumb basis for a religion, but whatever, I thought it also kind of a neat foundational precept for a warmongering people, which the Alethi most certainly are. Now the big reveal from OB was that Humans were the ones that came to Roshar and brought their God Odium with them. What if, and this is the big Duhn Duhn Duhn moment, the spren that are Voidbringers, the ones who come and Fuse with the Singers are really good Vorin super soldiers from the afterlife that have been corrupted by Odium. Vorinism seems like a great religion to train and shape a people that, unfortunately due to the bad luck of the draw on which shard got their planet, they happened to get tied great cosmic wheel of Rebirth to fight perpetually. Maybe, when people give themselves to Odium (like Amaram, like Moash) they create a bond that is similar to the Nahel bond, and after their body perishes their cognitive and spiritual beings can be recycled in the great Odium war machine. What if Vorinism is the first native religion of the people that brought Odium to roshar? Could this be the ancient ancestors of the Alethi? So Honor and Cultivation created a set of Deathless champions, likewise bound the cosmic wheel of perpetual death and rebirth to keep the Ghostly forces of Odium at bay. But, the native spren of Roshar saw the heralds (and probably, overtime the ideals symbolized by the heralds became Sapient spren) and these spren were able to bond with the humans. So here is the kicker, what if the Nahel bond makes one more susceptible to be corrupted by Odium? What if also, when a Radiant dies, due to the Nahel bond, Odium can claim them too for his legion of Deathless warriors? What if the true reason for the Recreance is really that the Voidbringers are composed largely of Fallen Radiants, and that radiants that realize that if they keep fighting they can end up as Odium's newest recruits? There is that part in the Epilogue where Hoid casually mentions how he had danced with one of the Fused before, would he likely have danced with one of the Ancient listeners? Another supporting detail is that some of the Fused are more awake than others ("EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MIND."). Why would this be if it was just the first and foremost leaders of the Singers that were the voidbringers? More likely, those that proved their skill in battle but fell, Odium claimed, and got fresh recruits each Desolation. He might have even claimed them from both sides (but I think it more likely that he is just able to claim HIS people). Love to hear what y'all think.
  7. So... Now that we know that the original Voidbringers were the humans who came to Roshar after Braize was presumably destroyed by their surgebinding... it make me think of this section from tWoK and then also this from OB I'm thinking that we're going to see our Knights Radiant able to perfectly hold in stormlight when they get through their 5th Ideal (if we see any of them get there).
  8. I just found out who the voidbringers are. Who they really are. Just fishing for everyone else's thoughts on this.
  9. The lady in border of the voidbringer diagram See diagram in spoiler. Some notes before reading For ease of following, I've broken down my thoughts into six chunks of reasoning. While I did skim through a number of the existing threads, my search was hardly comprehensive so some of these things may have been covered (I'm specifically thinking sections 1, 3, and 5). I didn't find a particular preferred citation method around, so I kinda did my own thing: Book, part, chapter, page, section Book - the book's name as an acronym part - referring to the physical book splits, not the parts within. Mostly just because I have both the current books in two volumes apiece. chapter - fairly straight forward page - note this is the page in this part, for people with both volumes in one, this won't help so much. section - notes the context of the quote, not always included 1.Cultivation resides in the West Honor in the East 2.People reflect the god most present in their area 3.Alethkar is the empire of the knights radiant 4.The nahel bond made the knights radiant more like Cultivation 5. Types of spren, Cultivationspren, Honorspren, Odiumspren 6. Cultivation, Odium, and Parshendi This section looks at the idea that the two Shards, Cultivation and Honor, don't hold share the whole planet like Ruin and Preservation, but rather have their own little dominions in the east and west of Roshar. No comment on whether this moves with the continent, or is more static and related to halves of the whole planet. Honor's power (highstorms) move from East to West This could be show Honor's power over Roshar generally, the east of Roshar, or a point off the east coast of Roshar (the Origin). "Vorin mythology claims that each storm is born in the east at the Origin before traveling west across Roshar" General change in flora, e.g. grass not hiding, everything is green It's the combination of this with the last bit that juxtaposes the very west of Roshar with the rest of the continent, and therefore Honor's influence over it. WoR p2 chapter 59 pg 157 Story of fleet (Hoid) "But here the storm, it too did wilt, with thunder lost and lightning spent. The drops slipped down, now weak as wet. For Shin is not a place for them." WoK p1 interlude 4 pg 473 Rysn "I've heard of the grass, but it's just so odd. (...) It didn't move at all." Some evidence against "The highstorms predate," (the Shattering of Adonalsium) ~ WoB This bit however does put a spanner in my working, as if the highstorms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium than either: a. the highstorms are wholly natural. b. Honor is just augmenting the highstorms (which makes them his. maybe.). c. Tanavast was somehow influenced by his Shard (Honor) to go to Roshar and continue this function that Adonalsium had been powering beforehand. d. Just a coincidence or quirk that let the Stormfather be caught up in the storms (predating him being called the Stormfather). Answers coming in book 3 1.Cultivation resides in the West Honor in the East 2.People reflect the god most present in their area 3.Alethkar is the empire of the knights radiant 4.The nahel bond made the knights radiant more like Cultivation 5. Types of spren, Cultivationspren, Honorspren, Odiumspren 6. Cultivation, Odium, and Parshendi This section does make assumptions based on the previous section, but if this is true than it can be applied to the other Shards of the Cosmere. Basically the idea is that the appearance of the people affected by a Shard's power is influenced over time to reflect atleast somewhat the appearance of the Shardholder. This does of course raise the question as to why the Shardholder's looked different from each other, and that leads into a bunch more questions about the Shattering of Adonalsium. Shin people are different This evidence assumes that Cultivation is at work in Shinovar more than the east. Szeth's eyes are dark green WoK p1 interlude 3 pg 185-6 "his people's large, round eyes, shorter stature, and tendency to baldness led Easterners to claim they looked like children" Szeth thinking to himself. The eyes A very distinguishing feature for the Shin is their eyes. This seems to be a bit of a theme, what with the whole lighteyes/darkeyes thing. "Normal eyes on Roshar are those with an epicanthic fold. The Shin do not have this." 1.Cultivation resides in the West Honor in the East 2.People reflect the god most present in their area 3.Alethkar is the empire of the knights radiant 4.The nahel bond made the knights radiant more like Cultivation 5. Types of spren, Cultivationspren, Honorspren, Odiumspren 6. Cultivation, Odium, and Parshendi EDIT: I've since found and compared the modern day map to the Silver Kingdoms Epoch one, and it's totally the same, just drifted a little south east. leaving the previous contents of this section in a spoiler for reference. 1.Cultivation resides in the West Honor in the East 2.People reflect the god most present in their area 3.Alethkar is the empire of the knights radiant 4.The nahel bond made the knights radiant more like Cultivation 5. Types of spren, Cultivationspren, Honorspren, Odiumspren 6. Cultivation, Odium, and Parshendi Now this one may be a bit of a stretch, but the idea is that the nahel bond changed the bonded human, not just their physical appearance, but also their genes, and perhaps even their spiritweb (well the spirit web was obviously changed, I mean bits that are or may be passed on to children). The changes to the future generations may even be greater than the changes to the current (bonded) one. Romantically involved This one is straightforward. STORMATLAS Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. Idealised by Honor So the idea here is that because of their involvement, Honor idealised Cultivation's physical form and changed those bonded to his Splinters (I'm including spren and honorblades) to be closer to hers specifically here I'm thinking that she had particularly light eyes. The hand covering tradition for women is also important (for section 6), and could be from some habit of Culivation to always wear a left-handed glove which could be for a multitude of reasons: a.Just liked to do so. b. prosthetic/cybernetic arm c. covering an injury d. etc. And this could have been ingrained into the Radiants in at least two ways I can think of, either some odd quirk of shardplate on women, or an unconscious compulsion (in the women to wear a left-hand glove, or the men to prefer that behaviour). evidence against Szeth's eyes are dark green WoK p1 interlude 3 pg 187 Szeth does put a hole theory in that he is darkeyed which could point towards all the Shin being darkeyed (I couldn't find the eyes of any other Shin being mentioned, the visit to Shinovar by the traders may be a good spot to start if you want to look) but I've come up with a few reasons for that, the first applies to Szeth, the rest to the Shinovar people as a whole. a. corruption from honorblade, the honorblade makes his eyes light blue (Wok I-3) which may mean that his eyes them become darker when they're not light. I don't think this is likely. b. crossbreeding with other peoples c. Honor rubbing off on the shin, this makes the assumption that Honor is the source of darkeyes and that because at least a little of highstorms reach Shinovar that a little of his power does. d. Odium is the source of all darkeyes across Roshar, and the nahel bond reverses that affect. I like d myself here, but perhaps that's just because it stops this being evidence against. 1.Cultivation resides in the West Honor in the East 2.People reflect the god most present in their area 3.Alethkar is the empire of the knights radiant 4.The nahel bond made the knights radiant more like Cultivation 5. Types of spren, Cultivationspren, Honorspren, Odiumspren 6. Cultivation, Odium, and Parshendi - "Honor is connected to spren of emotion. Cultivation is connected to spren that represent forces." There are at least two different kinds of spren, those of Roshar, and Voidspren, but the spren caused by emotion seem separate from those caused by forces of nature. Note: From memory there was a quote from Eshonai where she grumbles about humans being able to call emotion spren more easily than the Listeners, which if so may be further evidence that all spren that bond with humans are of Honor (due to them 'rejecting' the Listener's emotional calls). 1.Cultivation resides in the West Honor in the East 2.People reflect the god most present in their area 3.Alethkar is the empire of the knights radiant 4.The nahel bond made the knights radiant more like Cultivation 5. Types of spren, Cultivationspren, Honorspren, Odiumspren 6. Cultivation, Odium, and Parshendi Got WoB'd by Argent on this one, but i'm leaving the idea below anyway Source
  10. We now tentatively know the approximate locations of Urithiru and all ten Oathgates. I've marked them with blue circles on this map. (I'm guessing with the Aimian one.) You might have noticed that I also marked off a large area in red. This huge area is conspicuously devoid of Oathgates. I call it the Oathgate Deadzone. The central and northern parts of this region are farther from an Oathgate than any other point on the Rosharan landmass. These are the areas which, in the event of a voidbringer attack, would take the longest to receive Radiant assistance. I've got to wonder if there's a reason behind this. The simplest explanation is that this region had the least need for Oathgate-based military aid. Based on the present-day distribution of Shardblades, we might conjecture that Alethela and Valhav, which made up most of the Deadzone in the Silver Kingdoms era, were very strong countries, with lots of combat-ready Radiants among their populations. But if I accepted that explanation, I could hardly justify an ominous name like "the Oathgate Deadzone." So maybe there's another explanation for it. When I think of the old Desolations, I see the Heralds and Radiants spearheading a coordinated global defense. Voidbringers appear somewhere, and within the hour there are Elsecallers and Willshapers on the scene, doing reconnaissance. Within days there'll be a fighting force of Windrunners and Skybreakers, drawing the battle lines and probing the enemy's defenses. And then, a week or two after the initial enemy incursion, the bulk of our forces arrive -- huge armies of radiants, squires, and ordinary soldiers, marched in from the nearest Oathgate. Except in the Deadzone. There, with all the Oathgates far away, the Radiants' response time suffers. The enemy has more time to rally, to dig in, to fortify their position, and be ready for battle. This means the Deadzone is where the Radiants (and humankind in general) are weakest. It's a hole in their global defense network. It's a weakness the enemy can and will exploit. If the Radiants were smart, they would have filled in this gap by building an Oathgate out there, perhaps in modern day Elanar or Northgrip. So why didn't they? Is it because they could rely on local Alethi and Vedens protecting themselves? Or is there a more sinister, catastrophic reason? Well, you know what just happens to be in the Deadzone? The Horneater Peaks. And what's in the Horneater peaks? A shardpool. The only known stationary perpendicularity on Roshar. And I don't think that's a coincidence. I think... if I was sending an army of monsters to invade Roshar, I'd send that army through Shadesmar. And the easiest way to get them into the physical realm is through that perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks. This is my theory. Odium's unseen voidbringer hordes will arrive en masse through that shardpool. The Horneater peaks are Ground Zero for every desolation. The Radiants probably tried to set up an oathgate-base in the area, but it was always overrun and destroyed early in the desolation. The voidbringers make it their priority to secure their LZ by rapidly and decisively taking control of the region. Expect shock troops. Expect death. From there, they expand outward until Radiant resistance is strong enough to push back. Then a brutal war of attrition begins, with each side trying to cripple the other using behind-enemy-lines surgical strikes -- which is what we've seen in Dalinar's visions. The Oathgate Deadzone is actually enemy territory. Voidbringer Central. Mordor. It always has been, and it's about to be again. And when the monsters of the voidbringer vanguard pour out of the Horneater Oceans, eager to establish their home base, they will not be happy to find a whole human culture camping out around their portal. If the Horneaters don't evacuate their mountains in a hurry, they're about to be wiped out. Hence my clickbait thread title. If that's not bad enough, Hearthstone is also inside the Deadzone. And I think House Davar's estate is as well. And so is Herdaz, and potentially hundreds of Lopen's cousins. The only tangible proof I could find is this: Herdazians and Horneaters both make their homes inside the Deadzone. The two human races descended from Listeners just happen to live inside the region with the worst Oathgate service. Their presence suggests this region was once home to large Listener populations, which I think would confirm my logic: Oathgates, no; Voidbringers, yes. Throw in a perpendicularity, and it can't all be a coincidence, can it? It can, obviously. But maybe it's not! This might be the reason the Alethi and Vedens are so warlike. Their ancestors were living on the front lines. They were the first line of defense when a desolation came, and the last ones fighting to retake their lost territory as it drew to a close. If this theory is at all correct, I think we can expect so see confirmation pretty soon. I predict that we'll soon hear about some very unusual parshman activity in Vedenar. (This part has Oathbringer spoilers.) Either way, I bet we'll know before book 4. Thoughts?
  11. This post brings in some of my thoughts on Oathbringer, Voidbringers, and Voidbinding but also builds on a lot of the ideas I've read on this site. I’ve been speculating about the title of the book, Oathbringer, (and its likely in-world literary counterpart and Dalinar’s old sword) in light of the idea that “void” refers to the breaking of oaths, bonds, and contracts. If this is the case, “Oathbringer” serves as a very clear opposite to Voidbringer in a more substantial way. We know that this book will be about Bondsmiths, but I suspect that it is also necessary to lay the groundwork for the final two books of the first five. The idea that Roshar is bond-focused, rather than spren-focused (borrowing from others here!), makes a lot of sense when thinking about the tactics and strategies of the parties involved. There are those who create protective, consensual bonds and oaths to protect Roshar, and those who void oaths and (likely) form twisted, nonconsensual bonds. Spren are willing, and perhaps unwilling, partners in forming these bonds, too. In addition to learning more about the significance of bonds and oaths and the role of Voidbringers and Voidbinding, I think the consensual nature of bonds and oaths will come into play. We know that it’s possible for Listeners to voluntarily give up forms, so the bondage of the Parshmen is even more terrible. If humans used something on the void-side of things to deprive the Parshmen of forms, that would demonstrate a corruption of the honor-based system of bonds, as humans showed a willingness to use voidlike tactics. I’m also thinking about the bondage of spren. Nahel spren, as far as we know, choose to bond, sometimes even against the wishes of other spren in the Cognitive Realm. But we’ll likely be seeing more about the consequences of bondage, perhaps especially with regard to spren trapped in gemstones against their will or against nature. From WoR, it seems that the Parshendi may have started down a dangerous path when they learned how to trap spren, rather than attract them: And who knows what the dark side of fabrial science might be? We might find out more in this book, though. At any rate, I think that Oathbringer will help set up the opposition between forming a bond and voiding or twisting a bond, while also exploring the nature of bonds made freely and bonds that more closely resemble bondage. This will establish more specific stakes for the last two books. I’m interested to see where others think this possible focus for the book might lead! P.S. Sorry if I got carried away with hiding spoilers on a spoiler board!
  12. So, this is a very theoretical post. It's not mega-sourced (which I hope is ok), because it's more about how we look at larger, more abstract concepts related to language and literary themes. I don't believe there are any spoilers here. Here goes. As I’ve been thinking about SA’s language, I’ve realized that a lot of the terms it uses sound like they could be part of a standard fantasy series with stock villains who have generic goals. We often take them for granted. But we see in some of the archaic meanings of words in in-world songs and texts, the terms can be opaque or have a second, often older meaning. Sanderson has had some fun with misunderstood words in other series, too... This led me to try a linguistic analysis of SA’s in-world terminology and to contextualize it with some of the major thematic elements of the series. Major Themes: Loss, Corruption, Recovery of Knowledge The Integrity, Durability (or Fragility) of Bonds, Barriers, Seals, and Oaths Terminology: I, and perhaps others, have been thinking about “Desolation” in terms of a goal of essentially sending Rosharans “back to the stone age” and wiping out civilization. It’s a familiar goal in an ordinary fantasy series. Additionally, because of the theme of the loss and gain of knowledge, this makes even more sense to the reader in the early stages of the series. But “Desolation” can also mean forsaken or abandoned (the Latin root). The word “Void” also sounds like it would be a cliché end-goal of a “big bad” in a fantasy novel. More like emptiness, the void of space, etc. But “Void” also means the breaking of a contract or agreement, or even a hole or breach in a wall meant to shelter or protect. What I’m suspecting, is that these terms—and their compound and modified forms—are interconnected. Some of these connections are familiar, but I think that they are much more complex and work on more levels than we realize. I’ve thought of a few ways that these terms apply to the series, but I imagine there are many more. This is in no way comprehensive. It’s more about looking at the series through a lens that I suspect the author uses. Here are a few: Shards and their goals: Odium is the “Broken One.” He breaks bonds, vows, oaths, he renders them void. He shatters. What helps the Broken One break/void pacts and oaths? Voidbringers and the Unmade. Honor is the shard most associated with oaths, bonds, fulfilling/adhering etc. He creates walls to protect, walls made out of humans, spren, and oaths. Here, we see the root of their opposing interests. Stormlight, bonds, and cracks: We know that Honorblades let too much stormlight in, perhaps making the user more susceptible to malicious influences. Knights Radiant, too, have cracks, but the symbiosis of the Nahel bond protects in most cases. And Voidbringers (whoever/whatever they are) are perhaps the “Knights Radiant” of Odium, though without patterns, laws, and can include species that have an affiliation with gems, stone, or are actual stones. They are able to hold in stormlight because Odium’s influence has corrupted them, sealing the cracks to only his influence, and making them like stone. Misunderstanding the purposes of Stonewards and “Dustbringers”: I suspect that Stonewards, in particular, have become confused in popular understanding, at least in the past. They may be strong like stone, but more important, they guard and protect against things made of stone or like stone/rock. They “ward” against stone-like bonded Voidspren. “Releasers” or “Dustbringers” may turn animated stone enemies, perhaps even VoidListeners, to Dust, releasing—and hopefully destroying—the bonded Voidspren. Part of the reason they are feared, even though they are needed, is because they break bonds, not unlike the Broken One and his friends. An example of language and double meanings from the Listeners: Conclusion: Perhaps the conflict, at least for the first 5 books, is about Odium’s attempt to shatter bonds, pacts, and oaths, layers upon layers of these protective forces that put up a barrier between Roshar and Odium. Should Odium render these protective bonds void, perhaps weakening them with the help of a loss of knowledge about the larger conflict and the less abstract assistance of the Unmade and Voidbringers, he will break through and fully touch Roshar and destroy its shard and cognitive shadow shard. The True Desolation involves a final forsaking or abandoning of the vows and bonds that protect Roshar and the more literal, catastrophic abandoning of its inhabitants, by shards, heralds, and others sworn to protect Roshar from Odium’s influence. This may not all be new, but I think that really digging into words that Sanderson chose for very specific reasons could lead to some fun ideas...
  13. For some months now, I’ve been working on creating a framework for all of the magic systems of Roshar that combines everything we know about them and makes predictions for that which we don’t know. This topic is the end result. Since I’m aiming for completeness, there will be things here that are already well understood, as well as things that I haven’t seen proposed before. So, with apologies for the sheer length that it has become, allow me to present my framework. Magics by Shardic Composition Let's start by listing the various Rosharan powers and classifying them by the Shards which power them. Magic Shardic Composition Surgebinding Honour & Cultivation Ancient Fabrials Honour & Cultivation Modern Fabrials Cultivation Old Magic Cultivation Voidbinding Honour & Odium Voidbringer Powers Cultivation & Odium Surgebinding My classification of Surgebinding shouldn't be raising any eyebrows since it is well understood that each type of Radiant spren is some mix of both Honour and Cultivation. However, let's take a moment to consider how the two powers manifest in Surgebinding as this will provide insight into how I've classified the other magics. While there are many different interpretations of honour, they ultimately all come down to the interaction between two or more people: in a universe with only one person, it would be impossible for them to act honourably (nor to act dishonourably), for there would be no one for them to act honourably towards. This duality is reflected, I believe, in Honour's magic. The most obvious example of this would be the necessity to bond spren in order to perform it. Now, you could argue that since the listeners were bonding spren long before the Shards came to Roshar, this would mean that bonding spren is not related to Honour specifically. However, the listener bond is, by its very nature, very different to the Nahel bond; seemingly less a mutually beneficial partnership, and more a natural process. I would contend, therefore, that this is an example of Honour incorporating this aspect of the Rosharan environment into his magic out of necessity. I do not think that this idea of duality is limited only to the bonding of spren, however; I think that it extends even to the way that the powers form. You likely noticed that in my listing of the various magics that there is no system that is entirely of Honour. I think that Honour's nature means that he requires a second Shard to mix his power with in order to form a magic system. In other words, it would not be in his nature to form a magic that is purely his own. Another example of Honour's effect on Surgebinding is in its structure: the way that Surgebinders are divided up precisely into distinct predetermined Radiant Orders based off of their interpretation of honour, and their determination to emulate that ideal. And also, the way that the powers are divided up between the different orders. This is a rigid and inflexible framework, much like the Radiant’s Ideals can be. In short, this is where the "binding" in Surgebinding comes from: Honour is bound to another Shard and the Radiants to their spren, their Orders, and their Ideals. So if Honour provides a structure to Surgebinding, what does Cultivation provide? I think that it is through Cultivation that Surgebinders get to manipulate the Surges. If we look at the spren associated with each of the Shards, Honour's spren are those of emotion, again linking back to human interaction. Cultivation's spren, however, are the spren of nature, so it makes sense that it is Cultivation's power that gives access to the natural Surges. Now, I can imagine it being argued that since on Scadrial, all the magic systems revolve around metals, surely all the magic systems of Roshar should likewise revolve around the Surges, not simply the ones associated with Cultivation. However, I would argue that this is a false analogy: the metals on Scadrial act as a focus, the Surges on Roshar do not. The powers produced by the Metallic Arts (with the exceptions of Allomantic iron, steel, aluminium, and chromium) are not related to metal themselves. Therefore, whilst all of the Rosharan magic systems should share a common focus, it should not necessarily be the case that they all share the Surges. Modern Fabrials Now with that established, it should be obvious why I think that Fabrials are a magic system purely of Cultivation. They lack the rigid structure that I have associated with Honour, and while the spren are still part of the magic, they are trapped inside the gemstones rather than working with the user as you would expect in Honour’s magic. This leaves Cultivation as the only reasonable candidate, which in turn means that they must be utilising the surges in some way. Although, without the rigidity of Honour’s framework, the way they manifest is apparently quite different. Ancient Fabrials The first thing to note here is that these fabrials do not seem to have much in common with modern fabrials, to the point that I suspect that calling them fabrials at all is a misnomer. Modern fabrials all function by trapping a spren in a gemstone, ancient fabrials do not appear to do this. Spren are clearly involved in some way, just as they are in every other magic; we in fact see this in the operation of the Oathgates. In order to activate them, you need a Shardblade, i.e. the physical manifestation of a spren that is part Cultivation and part Honour. Moreover, the spren needs to be alive. This implies that the person operating the Oathgate needs to be working together with the spren, which sounds just like an Honour based magic. This would mean that the ancient fabrials are far more closely related to the Surgebindings than they are to modern fabrials. Which makes sense given that the effects we have seen (Soulcasting, Regrowth, Transportation) appear to be the same as various Surgebindings. In fact, when Nale heals Szeth with one of these ancient fabrials, he actually refers to it as a Surgebinding. Ideally I would compare the operation of the Oathgates to that of other ancient fabrials, unfortunately though, we haven’t really seen enough of these yet to be able to draw anything meaningful from them. The Old Magic This isn’t a magic like others on this list: it's not something that people can perform; instead, it seems to be practised solely by the Nightwatcher, about whom the only things we can really say with confidence are that she is some kind of “mega-spren”, closely related to Cultivation. This would suggest then that the Old Magic can be described as similar to a sapient, self-operating fabrial. I don’t think that there’s much more that can be said at this point without additional information about the Old Magic or the Nightwatcher. Voidbinding This brings us to the only magic system on the list which I believe to be unrelated to Cultivation. If we look at the Voidbinding chart from the back of The Way of Kings, it is immediately obvious that the structure of the magic is the same as Surgebinding. It even has "binding" in its name, hence why I think that it is of Honour. However, if we look at the symbols where, on the Surgebinding chart, the Surges are placed, we see not the symbols for the Surges, but a twisted version of them. Hence I do not think that Voidbinding will be related to the Surges at all, and hence Cultivation has no part in Voidbinding. Voidbringer Powers And finally, we come to the powers that were demonstrated at the end of Words of Radiance by the Voidbringers. Why do I think that this isn't Voidbinding? We have a WoB that we haven't seen Voidbinding yet, but we have seen these powers, therefore they must be something different. Additionally we have the following WoBs: Since the Voidbringers are forms of the Parshendi, and the Parshendi are not of Honour, if my classification of Voidbinding as being of Honour is correct, then the Voidbringers cannot be Voidbinders. So, why do I think that the Voidbringers are related to Cultivation rather than purely of Odium? If we have a look at Dalinar’s vision of the Purelake, we see him looking for a voidspren, which ultimately ends up animating a thunderclast. The voidspren is described to him as: “A spren that doesn’t act like it should”, not as a new type of spren. And apparently this is a result of the spren interacting with Sja-anat, an Unmade. What’s more, the spren they end up chasing has a resemblance to a riverspren, a type of nature spren, which is therefore related to Cultivation. I would propose, therefore, that the Unmade corrupt spren to make voidspren. When the spren was originally of Cultivation they go on to form Voidbringers and thunderclasts and the like. And when the spren was originally of Honour, they will bond to form Voidbinders. On Initiation The first thing to note here is that not all magics require an Initiation in order to be used. Some, such as Haemalurgy, are universal and can be used by anyone. Modern fabrials also seem to fall under this category. In order to use a magic, you need three things: intent, Investiture, and a focus. In the case of fabrials, the Investiture and the focus are both incorporated into the device itself. In other words, the user only needs to provide the intent to use the fabrial in order for it to work. The crucial part here is that the user does not need to access an external source of Investiture themselves: the fabrial does that for them. The Old Magic is not relevant to this discussion since it is restricted to the domain of the Nightwatcher. Also, I don’t think we’ve seen enough of the ancient fabrials yet in order to determine whether they would also be universal or not, so, for the time being, I’ll pass over these two magics. The remaining magics all seem to require Initiation. Khriss’ comments on Initiation in Elantris’ Ars Arcanum suggest that the method of Initiation across all of the magics on any given world is consistent. I think it should be fairly obvious, therefore, that the method of Initiation here is the spren bond. All of the remaining magics utilise a spren bond in some form, and Syl has openly admitted to Kaladin that she is the reason that he is able to Surgebind. On the Rosharan Focus So far I’ve seen theories on the focus claim that it’s either the gemstones, or the spren, or the spren bond. Firstly, I don’t think that it can be the spren bond: I have already demonstrated that it is the method of Initiation and I don’t see how it can be both. Also, as previously noted, not all magics require a spren bond, but all magics require a focus which is consistent across all Rosharan magics, therefore if the spren bond were the focus, this would be a contradiction. Things get interesting when we start to examine the spren and the gemstones as candidates for the focus, however. When examining Soulcasting, the gemstones act exactly as you would expect the focus to, the type of gemstone used determines the result of the transformation. However, this does not appear to be the case with any other magic that we have seen, which should mean that the gemstones can’t be the focus. The spren seem like an ideal candidate for the focus since they are, like the gemstones, present in some capacity in all Rosharan magics. Moreover, as they are capable of changing their form at will, if they are the focus then they should be able to direct the form that the power takes by themselves. And, we saw in the climax to Words of Radiance, Syl was able to accurately determine the weapon that Kalaldin wished her to form without him having to actively communicate it to her, it would follow then, that the Radiant spren could do the same thing to provide their Radiant with the power that they wished to use. And since in modern fabrials, the spren would presumably be trapped in a single form, it would account for why fabrials each have only a single function. There is, however, a problem with using spren as the Rosharan focus, and it is essentially the same problem that we ran into when we tried considering the gemstones as the focus: when considering Soulcasting, it is clearly the gemstones, not the spren that is determining the result of the transformation. So both the spren and the gemstones must be the focus, but neither the spren nor the gemstones can be the focus! To resolve this, I think we’re going to need to take a closer look at what a focus actually is. To start off with, I don’t think that a focus is actually physical. Everything in the Cosmere exists to some extent across all three Realms, so that we might be able to see or interact with it in the Physical Realm does not mean that this is where the magical interaction is happening. If we look at AonDor, the focus like in all Selish magics is shapes, however, an Aon will continue to function even if you were to destroy its physical representation. Indeed Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, which shouldn’t have a physical body at all. And of course, on Nalthis, they use Commands as a focus which, being auditory, likewise shouldn’t have a physical body. I suspect that it is in the Cognitive Realm that these gain a more concrete, not to mention, permanent, form. So, Investiture flows from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive Realm where it interacts with the focus and is filtered down into the Physical Realm in the form determined by that focus. But, if the focus is cognitive, then shouldn’t it be possible for it to be something more abstract in nature, such as a function? We know that gemstones and spren have some kind of relationship with each other. Just consider Navani’s notebook: Could it be the case that spren and gemstones are bound together as variables in a cognitive function that is acting as the focus on Roshar? When spren are imprisoned in gemstones, is that what’s really happening, or are they instead being constrained to the same space as part of such a function? This is what I think is happening here: neither the spren nor the gemstone is the focus, but they are both components in a kind of complex focus. How the Honourblades Work So, I’ve been repeatedly coming back to the idea that the spren are involved in some way in every magic on Roshar, yet you might have noticed that the Honourblades are an exception to this. They allow their wielder to Surgebind, but they are not themselves spren. In fact, originally, the Honourblades would power Surgebinding by opening a direct conduit to Honour, similar to how Allomancy opens a conduit to Preservation, meaning that even gemstones wouldn’t be needed to provide Stormlight. Thus, the Heralds might not have needed either part of the focus that I specified above. Does this not contradict my argument for the focus? I don’t think so; I think that the way Honour hacked the magic in the Honourblades means that this isn’t an issue. When Preservation hacked Allomancy so that Vin was able to burn the mists, she no longer needed the metals for Allomancy. And similarly, when Vin became Preservation, she was able to power Allomancy for Elend without him having access to the metals. Based off of this, I think it’s clear that a focus is not required when a Shard directly intervenes like this. One final point: it could perhaps be argued that the Honourblades represent the true form of Surgebinding and that the Nahel bond is the true hack since the spren copied the Honourblades. I disagree with this interpretation, though. I think that the Radiant spren have always been able to form the Nahel bond and create Surgebinders since Honour first Invested in Roshar, they simply didn’t know that they could do this. When Honour hacked the system by creating the Honourblades though, the spren were able to figure out that they had this ability from seeing what the Honourblades could do. TL;DR Given the size and scope of this treatise, it is impossible to easily summarise the entire piece, however, a few key points are as follows: Honour’s influence causes a magic to take on a predefined, rigid structure. Voidbinding does not manipulate the Surges at all. Spren Bonds are the basis for Initiation. Roshar has a complex focus which utilises both spren and gemstones as components. The Honourblades negate the need for a focus.
  14. Ever since we discovered that the small circles on the rear endsheet of The Way of Kings (what I call the Voidbringing chart) are symmetric around their centers, I've been looking for things to help me figure out how Voidbringing works - because it felt clear to me that there should be strong parallels with what we see on the front endsheet (the Surgebinding chart). The two are far too similar, so I believe they must be opposite in many ways. I think I finally have an elegant solution. But before I present it to you, a quick primer. Surges and Surgebinders We now know a lot about what the Surgebinding chart illustrates. There are ten Heralds around the borders. Each Herald corresponds to a big circle, enclosing a glyph - an Order of the Knights Radiant. Each big circle is connected to two small circles - the primal Surges members of that Order have access to. We now know the names of all the Heralds, all the Orders, and all the Surges, so there is no point talking about them, you can find the information elsewhere. I will provide only a list of all the Orders and Surges for quick reference. Voids and Voidbringers The most important part of my theory lies here. At this point it's pretty reasonable to say that the Voidbringers are the Parshendi. Or, more specifically, the creatures of destruction remembered by the people of Roshar are the Listeners when they embrace certain forms. In other words - and this is a part of my claim - when we saw Eshonai take on stormform, we only saw one type of Voidbringers, the same way Kaladin is one type of the Knights Radiant. Windrunners are an Order of the Radiants; stormforms are a... something... of the Voidbringers. If this is true, then there are nine other types of Voidbringers we are yet to see - one for each big circle on the rear endsheet. Eshonai represents one... let's call them Voidorders (we really need some words other than "void"...) of the Voidbringers, but unlike the Knights Radiant, she has the option to switch her Voidorder. She can go out during a highstorm, discard her stormform, and embrace decayform, nightform, or smokeform, for example. So far those are the only voidforms we have seen, I believe, but my gut tells me there should be a total of ten of those. So far so good. Now, let's tackle the small circles on the Voidbringing chart. Just like the big ones stand for Voidorders and are the opposite of the Radiants' Orders, the small ones are probably the powers, the Voids, each Voidorder has access to. These Voids would have to be something similar to the Surges, but can't be the same - but like much else, they can be their opposites. In fact, the way the Voids' glyphs are written supports this even further. Those glyphs are not just some asymmetric shapes, they are the Surges' glyphs, broken in half, and then put back together with one of the halves inverted, made its opposite. Considering how much emphasis is put on symmetry in Roshar, this looks like a pretty powerful symbol of not asymmetry, but of anti-symmetry instead. We've taken the Surges, something divine (as represented by their symmetry) and natural, and have turned them into an anathema. Still with me? Good. I won't speculate on what the Voids might be, though I suspect they will somehow end up mirroring the Surges. Instead, I will look at the different voidforms and make the claim that they stand opposite of the Radiants' Orders. Stormform, with its control over the winds (and lightning), sounds like the more hateful counterpart of the Windrunners. Nightform shares some of the future-telling capabilities Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, exhibits. Smokeform, "for hiding and slipping 'tween men," seems very similar to what Shallan can do with her Lightweaving. Decayform... will have to be put on hold for now. The Listener Song of Secrets is not very clear on what this form does, but it's possible that it opposes the Edgedancers ("watch where you walk, your toes to tread") or the Willshapers ("destroys the souls of dreams"). The Edgedancers are a good candidate because of Nale's remark about member of that Order gracefully running along ropes, but the Willshapers' name is more appropriate for the good counterpart of something that destroys the souls of dreams. Whatever that means. The colors on the two endsheets' big glyphs also match, so we could treat that as a piece of extra evidence that we are thinking along the right lines. So there you have it, folks. Voidbringing. I wish I could figure something out about the Voids, because they feel like I should be able to see them... but I can't. Not fully, at least. If Stormform is the counterpart to the Windrunners, then its powers should be somewhat similar. And in a way they are - we see Eshonai & co. call a highstorm (which involves strong winds, which are created by - among other things - difference in pressure; so there's a different form of Adhesion) and throw lightning around (which could be the Voidbringers' answer to gravity - Windrunners get Gravitation, Stormforms get Electromagnetism). The other Voidorders' Voids kind of sound similar, yet opposite, to their respective Orders' Surges, but we haven't seen enough for me to come to a conclusion. Is Smokeform (anti-Progression & anti-Transformation) the form creating illusions, blinding enemies, and summoning darkness? And even if it is, how would the Transformation Void even work? This is not to say that I don't like those anti-Surges, but we really need more information for a more conclusive theory. TL;DR The forms of power the Parshendi received from their gods are what transforms them from Listeners to Voidbringers. Each form (stormform, smokeform, etc.) opposes one Order of the Knights Radiant; Stormform, for example, seems to share the same abilities theme as the Windrunners. The powers those anti-Orders, Voidorders as I call them, also seem opposite to the Surges, but we don't have enough evidence. The term "Voidbringer" is about as descriptive as the term "Knight Radiant" - both are used to denote only one type of the entire category (all Windrunners are Radiants, but not all Radiants are Windrunners; all Stormforms are Voidbringers, but not all Voidbringers are Stormforms). I keep wanting to rename this thread to something more descriptive, but everything I come up with sounds like the name of a research paper. Voids, Voidbringing, and Voidbringers: The Nature of Odium's Investiture and its Applications to and by the Listeners...
  15. I'm reading through WoR again and I found a couple interesting things of note. First, in Eshonai's interludes she visits her mother who equates the Unmade with the Listener gods, which, I believe, is now common knowledge to the 17th Shard. However, early in Shallan's Middlefest flashback (chapter 45 for those who are curious) she encounters a sort of bird ( the merchant calls it a chicken) that can talk. This is what she says: “Jeksonofnone,” the creature said. Shallan jumped back. The word was mangled by the creature’s inhuman voice, but it was recognizable. “A Voidbringer!” she hissed, safehand to her chest. “An animal that speaks! You’ll bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.” I was under the impression that the Unmade were relatively unknown to the "uninitiated," you might say. But here is Shallan, the daughter of a minor rural lord in a somewhat isolated corner of Jah Keved, showing that she is aware of the Unmade and at least some connection between them and the Voidbringers. My question is, how much do the common lighteyes and darkeyes actually know of the Unmade? Taravangian obviously knows something, but he's more ...involved... than most. How does Vorinism view the Unmade, and how much is accurate? I'm well aware that even among the 17th Shard, information is quite limited, but I am curious as to the common knowledge of the Unmade as far as the average person in Vorin society.
  16. So after listening to Eshonai's interludes, I want to throw an idea out for discussion: The voidbringers are the Unmade. They are counterparts of the Heralds. Honor originally chose the 10 Heralds and gave them 10 invested weapons, splinters, we call the Honorblades. Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating surgebinders (the Knights Radiant) via the Nahel Bond. Odium originally splintered himself into the Unmade and gave them power that we do not yet understand. It is likely that there are 9 Unmade, as Braize (where Odium is) is 9-centric in contrast to the 10-centric cultures of Roshar (where Honor was). Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating what mankind refers to as "voidbringers," but are really things like thunderclasts and the stormform Parshendi. After all, the Parshendi obtain powers by bonding with spren, transforming them into something different, similar yet not the same as how spren bond with the surgebinding Knights Radiant. So the original battle between Honor's Heralds and Odium's Unmade became more intense as spren added men (and Parshendi) to both sides of the conflict, though this seems like an unintended occurrence by both Honor and Odium. Desolations became worse and more frequent as the spren (and the inhabitants of Roshar) became more involved. Eshonai fears bringing their gods back by using the ancient powers, gods she refers to as the Unmade (WoR). The Parshendi are determined to bring back the ancient powers to combat humans, especially because they see the humans have their ancient powers of surgebinding again. They fear the reprocusions of the Unmades' return (possibly because they, the "last legion," abandoned the Unmade by refusing to fight in the distant past). They know they will lose control as the Unmade possess them (in a way) and use them against their will. It's like the presence of too much of Honor's investiture (i.e. the Heralds, surgebinding) triggers the release of Odium's investiture (i.e. the Unmade, the "ancient power spren" of the Parshendi). In the past, Honor was able to regulate how quickly men were able to rise through the oaths and take on more of his investiture, which perhaps slowed the return of Odium and his agents. It's possible that this is what Nale fears - that men will too quickly summon Honor's investiture, which would trigger another Desolation. Perhaps this is what triggered the Recreance, that men chose to abandon the investiture of Honor in hopes of preventing the scale from tipping enough to open the gateway for Odium's return. Questions Still Unanswered How would this conflict end? The Heralds and Unmade return to their place (whatever torture they endure between desolations)? How? Did Honor and Odium agree that if one side won, that the game board (Roshar) would be reset? What does it mean to win a desolation? Since only 1 Herald returned to torture, how did the other 9 Heralds manage to keep the balance of investiture steady? The 9 abandoned their Honorblades, so does this mean they lost their connection with Honor? Did all of the Unmade return to torture (or their parallel place) at the end of the last desolation? It seems that at least one is still active (or recently became active) in Alethkar (i.e. The Thrill) and another is influencing the Death Rattles. Is Braize 9-centric because 9 Heralds stayed on Roshar or was this an original condition of Honor and Odium's arraignment? Where does Cultivation fit into any of this? What are your thoughts?
  17. "You could tell them from the way they walked... Of course the softly glowing red eyes were another sign." -The Bands of Mourning, pg 433 This is the reference to the first of the "other" Kandra. This was the most impressive part for me in the end of BoM. (Well one of three) This is tied directly to the red haze Wax observed encircling Scadrial. Harmony said it was the presence of something else, a power from beyond the planet. Now I know there is speculation that this is Odium, and I think I can confirm it. We know the void spren are of Odium. They are what make the Thunderclast and what is needed to create storm-form in the Parshendi. These forces have been described as red spren moving like lightning. The also turned the Parshendi's eyes red. Some may see this as a generalization, but there is too much consistency here. In the Song of Secrets they sing: Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life... So these spren are Splinters of Odium. That makes sense. What is interesting is that he made his splinters spren. Until now, the Shards of the various worlds each have different forms of magic, splinters, and goals. However Odium seems to be mimicking Cultivation and Honor as he seeks to destroy them and all that they created. Upon reflection this seemed odd to me. Then I remembered the red eyes The Set have their own Kandra, which means they are not of Harmony. Yet here it is again, it seems that someone is mimicking the tools and followers of Harmony. There are these Void Kandra and the Set has somehow learned about Hemalurgy, and knows how to use it. Remember the dog-men who chased Wax in Shadows of Self? They were new unknown creations. The Lord Ruler experimented with Hemalurgy for 1000 years, and he couldn't make anything more than he had created during his ascension. These things are made from something who understands Hemalurgy like Ruin did and it (probably) isn't Harmony. Now the other thought is that this could be another Shard. Well that is possible, and if that's the case then we cannot know more until the next book comes out. However I hope you see that the parallels between Trell on Scadrial and Odium on Roshar are pretty apparent. So I think this is Odium's plan. He creates mimics who use twisted versions of a shard's power, using the powers and investiture of his foes. This somehow gives him an advantage and might be the key to a shards destruction, using their own power against them somehow. I doubt I was the first one to think about this, but i couldn't see anything posted on this in my search. Even so, the possibilities are endless. I wonder if Scadrial is about to face its first Desolation...
  18. If Shallan is a Lightweaver, then her Order's color is red, just as the Windrunner's color is blue. In the image of the Knights Radient, which I attatched, it shows all the colors. If Kaladin got red eyes at the end of WoR, then at some point, Shallan should be getting red eyes. If it becomes a known thing (which it might be among the Ghostbloods) that Voidbringers have red eyes, this could be a serious problem.
  19. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  20. So I have been re-reading WoR and have noticed something perhaps significant. So it is time for my first theory. After a few Sanderson novels, I have come to expect initial impressions and suspicions to be reversed. Who/whatever you think is the antagonist at the beginning never ends up as such. For example (beware of spoilers): -Treledees -Denth and Vasher -Preservation -The Lord Ruler (I would still say he was evil but he was not what you thought) I could probably go on. The point has been made, however, thus I won't. There is probably a similar reversal down the pipe in the Stormlight Archive. Starting with odium. I think it is fairly clear that odium is evil. Storms, he is the shard of hatred! Also, Hoid has a very poor opinion of Rayse, which probably does count for something. However, there is something else of note down this vein in the Stormlight Archive, linked to all these secret societies. We know that Gavilar was assassinated because he approached the Parshendi wishing to bring back the voidbringers. We also know that Taravangian loosely aligned with Gavilar. We also know that both of these people at least started out wishing to save the world, but it looks like what they actually tried to do was quite destructive. We also know that Ameram was interested in bringing back the voidbringers. And the ghostbloods are embroiled in all of this but we have no idea what they are looking for. So lots of people are interested in either bringing back the voidbringers or averting their return. I also want to highlight the "cover synopsis" of the Way of Kings: From the above information, I feel we can conclude two things: 1. The presence of radiants is associated with the desolations. Correctly or incorrectly, many presume a causal relationship between the return of voidbringers and the return of radiants. It would be interesting if this assumption was in fact correct. 2. The fact that both voidbringers and radiants have disappeared is not necessarily a good thing. So in light of this, Gavilar's efforts, one way or another, may have actually be saving Roshar. He tells Dalinar to "find the most important words a man can say" which probably means the radiant oaths. He tries to return the voidbringers, but this may actually be an attempt to restore the radiants as well. However, Gavilar foretells the approach of the everstorm to Taravangian. It even seems that all of his efforts are to prepare for the everstorm. So why would he be trying to bring back voidbringers? Wouldn't he realize that the voidbringers would cause the everstorm? It is possible he did not. Or perhaps the everstorm would have come eventually even if Eshonai hadn't caused it. Then there is also the motives of the society Ameram is a member of. We don't know very much about those other than that Ameram wants the voidbringers to return. I am inclined to believe Ameram's motives are not good, based on what he did to Kaladin. And there is the ghostbloods, which contains worldhoppers. The presence of worldhoppers implies that their motives are connected to the actual struggle between shards of adolnasium, something I doubt the others are keenly aware of or embroiled in. However, their motives are as of yet an enigma. All that being said, this theory doesn't really have a resounding conclusion. On the contrary, I am really making the point that we are probably wrong about a lot. Nevertheless, in conclusion: The return of the voidbringers means more than we think it does. Given that multiple groups are competing to return the voidbringers, there is probably some benefit to be had for whoever first creates voidbringers. However, restoring the voidbringers might not be as insane of an idea as we think. Gavilar might actually have been saving Roshar.
  21. At the February 25 Austin signing for Calamity, a questioner asked Brandon, “How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archives, and how many of them [have been seen?]” Brandon’s answer: I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. This is Brandon’s most definitive statement (that I’ve seen) regarding Roshar’s magic systems. Let’s look more closely at what the three systems have in common and why the “weird” Old Magic doesn’t fit with the other three. I’ll then address the peculiar features of each system. Common Features Each of these magics (other than the older non-spren fabrials) rely on spren for their efficacy, including the Old Magic. The three “systems” all use the same “powers of creation” in some fashion. They differ from one another only in how the system gives access to and expresses the powers. The Old Magic in contrast seems to use only a few of the powers of creation, if any, which differentiates it from the “systems.” Brandon has said the powers of creation are just “tools” (emphasis added): [T]he powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either [Ruin or Preservation]. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy. The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves. I interpret this statement to mean that magic systems wherever located differ only in “the means of getting powers” and how the powers express themselves. How do each of Roshar’s magic systems differ? Surgebinding We know that the essence of Surgebinding is the Nahel bond. That is the “means” by which Surgebinders “get” the ability to use the powers of creation, which on Roshar are called “Surges.” Q: The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you said are basically a different set of laws of physics. A: Yeah. Q: Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere? A: Um, y-y-yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. Like you could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would for instance consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force. That statement is also from the 2/25 Signing. IMO the reason the Nahel bond gives a Surgebinder access to the Surges is because the bonded spren is cognitive investiture. The bonded spren uses its mind to direct the Surges it controls as the Surgebinder requests. The Surgebinder thinks what he/she wants to do and the spren does it. Forum consensus (but not canon) is that Honor and Cultivation combined their investiture to create the Surgebinding system. This is an example of what Moogle calls “intent-meshing,” but what I call “mandate-meshing” since I think “mandate” is the textually proper word for what we’ve been calling “intent.” (See the HoA Chapter 79 Epigraph.) Honor’s mandate is “to bind,” as Syl tells us. Honor’s investiture creates the Nahel bond. But the bonded spren are a mix of Honor’s and Cultivation’s investiture. The two exceptions IMO are Bondsmiths’ spren (the Stormfather, Honor’s Cognitive Shadow comprised of pure Honor investiture); and Truthwatchers’ spren (pure Cultivation investiture, though connected to their KR’s SpiritWeb by Honor’s Nahel bond). I base my conjecture on the fact that these are the only two Orders “inside” the KR Order Chart (what I call the “Round Table”) that appears on the front endsheet of WoK. Argent has asked the question, “out of the potentially hundreds, if not thousands of spren types, why do the Radiants bind with only ten?” I believe the answer is that the ten spren types who became Radiantspren imitated the Honorblades. Each Honorblade is capable of two Surges. Only spren capable of exercising the same two Surges as each Honorblade - IMO the right mix of Honor's and Cultivation's investiture - would bond with KR. Other spren would have a different mix or be something else entirely. Those spren couldn't exercise the same Surges as the Honorblades. They cannot be Radiantspren. Fabrials There are two broad types of fabrials – the modern fabrials mentioned in the WoK and WoR Ars Arcana and ancient fabrials that seem not to rely on spren at all. We’ve seen two examples of ancient fabrials – ones that enable Soulcasting and Regrowth (the Transformation and Progression Surges). We don’t know whether the fabrial “magic system” includes both modern and ancient fabrials or one or the other. Brandon has said that “Fabrials can replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities.” Arguably the Honorblades themselves are non-spren fabrials that grant the ten Surges. The Oathgates are another ancient fabrial, but they require a “living” Shardblade – a spren; these may be more akin to modern fabrials, but maybe not. All fabrials of whatever kind require Stormlight to operate. The WoR Ars Arcanum author, believed to be Khriss, is “more and more convinced that [modern fabrial creation] requires forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities, known as ‘spren’ to the local communities.” Note that Khriss confirms that spren are comprised of cognitive investiture. Modern fabrials lock the spren into specific types of gems. The color, cut and size of the gems appear responsible for attracting the spren, its imprisonment, the amount and “wavelength” of Stormlight the spren gain access to, and/or the type of magical output the fabrial creates. Khriss categorizes fabrials into five “groupings”: Altering (Augmenters and Diminishers), Pairing (Conjoiners and Reversers), and Warning. Fabrials “appear to be the work of dedicated scientists, as opposed to the more mystical Surgebindings once performed by the Knights Radiant.” While Khriss seems to write the Ars Arcanum contemporaneously with WoR events – she knows of the Jah Keved half-Shards, a recent development – she seems ignorant of the KR’s re-emergence. IMO the two distinguishing features of modern fabrials are the use of gemstones to capture spren and reliance on merely sentient spren. Surgebinding uses the more heavily invested sapient Radiantspren for its magic. “Altering fabrials,” for example, “seem to work best with forces, emotions or sensations” like heat, pain or wind. We know that sentient spren have access to the Surges too: windspren, for example, can use Adhesion to trip people. I also believe that whatever spren is imprisoned in spanreeds gives the users access to the Transportation Surge: the writing is “transported” over distance. Voidbinding There’s been some excellent speculation about Voidbringer magic, most notably on this thread begun by Argent. Brandon’s 2/25/16 statement clarifies, however, that listener Stormform cannot be “voidbinding,” since we HAVE seen that magic. Lightflame in that thread suggests that listener Stormform is Voidbringing, since that form enables the listeners to summon the Everstorm, the phenomenon that will “bring the Void.” Lightflame distinguishes Stormform from the “Voidish Forms” that Argent lists as the believed counterparts of the KR Orders: Nightform, Decayform and Smokeform. As Lightflame notes, these forms are mentioned in the listeners' Song of Secrets. Stormform by contrast is mentioned in the listeners Song of Winds. Stormspren’s ability to cause lightning and violent winds appears innate, like windspren’s Adhesion ability. Neither seems to require Stormlight. There's no need to replicate the discussion on Argent’s thread, linked above. Instead, if you’re interested I suggest you read the entire thread, since the posters there have helpful insights. It’s clear (to me) that Voidbinding resembles Endowment’s reincarnation of the Returned more than any other magic system we’ve seen. Voidbinding in all its known forms relies on the powers granted to/by the Unmade, the listener “gods.” These former listeners are remade by Odium’s investiture. Nightform: “as the gods did leave, the nightform whispered…” (WoR Chapter 23 Epigraph). Decayform: “a form of gods to avoid, it seems…” (WoR Chapter 24 Epigraph). Smokeform: “Crafted of gods, this form we fear. / By Unmade touch its curse to bear…” (WoR Chapter 31 Epigraph). Oh well, all my theories about “Voidbinding” being a combination of Honor’s and Odium’s investiture – Honor “binding the Void” – are now out the window… The Old Magic But I still have hope for this one. Also at the 2/25/16 Event, Brandon and a questioner had the following exchange: Questioner: I kind of envision the Old Magic working a little bit like Hemalurgy, where some[one] takes a part of the Physical DNA of the person and transmutes it onto the Cognitive DNA because everything seems to be a Cognitive shift for the person. Am I thinking along the right lines? Brandon: You are thinking along very-- Yes you are thinking along the right lines. I won’t tell you exactly but you are thinking along the right lines. I hesitate to infer anything from such a squishy answer. (And PLEASE future questioners, do not invite such an answer by building it into your question, as this person did. It probably wouldn’t have made a difference, but it’s best not to provide Brandon with an “out” in advance.) I’ll assume that the “right lines” the questioner was “thinking along” refers to a quasi-hemalurgical connection between two entities affecting one’s Cognitive capacity. Brandon’s answer conveniently parallels my theory that the Nightwatcher – purveyor of the Old Magic – is a combination spren consisting of the Cognitive investiture of each of Cultivation and Odium bound to one another by Honor: Cultivation boons and Odium Cognitive curses. As Brandon says in the opening quote of this post, the Old Magic is “weird.” You can read my theory and its many detractors, so I won’t repeat it here. In summary, the Nightwatcher is the Cognitive element of Odium’s imprisonment in Greater Roshar. Conclusion That’s all, Folks! Enjoy the rest of your weekend!
  22. Honor’s exhortation to Dalinar to “Unite Them!” has many meanings. Unite the Knights, Unite Roshar’s peoples, etc. (Honor is the “binding” Shard.) The natural question is what will happen when that group IS “united”? I think the “them” to be united refers to the Heralds. The re-establishment of the KR will draw the Heralds to them. Why do I think the Heralds? Let’s look again at the WoK Chapter 9 Epigraph: “Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.” Though this refers to “Shardblades,” I think it really means Honorblades capable of consuming investiture. Herald unification enables them to combine all of their Surges and, perhaps together with the KR, re-form the “bonds that drive Roshar” (WoK Ars Arcanum). I envision the ten Heralds standing against the Voidbringers, Honorblades “alight,” sucking in vast amounts of investiture – and thereby stripping the Voidbringers of their Odiumspren. Violent Voidbringers will again become passive Parshendi, and the thunderclasts and Unmade will fall lifeless, their state before Odium invested in them. Unfortunately, the Honorblades consume ALL investiture. (See my theory of "investiture imbalance" as the cause of Desolations.) That means the Heralds’ souls and all spren, including the Radiantspren. Victory against Odium means the end of the spren. See ya, Syl! We barely knew ya…
  23. If no one has posted this before, I would be surprised, but I couldn't find it here, so I'll say it. On page 363 (paperback edition, unfortunately) of the Way of Kings, in one of Dalinar's visions (the one on the farm) it says So the stance that works best against the Midnight Essence, a type of creature that bleeds smoke, happens to be called Smokestance? Probably not a coincidence. Maybe each stance was created to fight a certain type of... well, they aren't voidbringers, but a different type of creature of Odium? Stonestance, for example, could be powerful against thunderclasts? I know that the stances are based off of the ten essences, but what if they're also good for fighting different creatures? Perhaps Odium made different creatures out of the ten essences? There might not be anything here, but that fact that Smokestance works best against creatures of smoke seems like too big of a coincidence for me.
  24. Recently, after thinking about the lyrics of the Christmas song "Jingle Bells" I payed specific attention to one line: "Oh what fun it is to ride and sing a sleighing song tonight!" And so I thought, "Hey! SING A SLAYING SONG tonight! The Parshendi sing while they kill!" And so I sought the opportunity to make a parody of this classic Christmas song. Here was the result: Parhsendi Plateau Assault Written by ChullRider To the tune of "Jingle Bells" Sang by the Parshendi ---------- Dashing on Plateaus Preparing to slay O'er the Plains we go Killing all the way! Singing Creepily Making Spirits Grim What fun it is to run And sing a Slaying song to them! --Chorus-- O! Alethi! Alethi! Please prepare to DIE! Oh what fun it is to kill all of the Ale----THI! Alethi! Alethi! Please prepare to DIE! O, what fun it is to kill all the Alethi! ----------- And unlike "Jingle Bells," this one isn't festive, so you can sing it year-round! Happy caroling! ~ChullRider
  25. Everybody seems to assume that the parshmen are the voidbringers and probably they are. but what if the aimians are the voidbringers or the chasmfiends. Would be cool if we get a twist there.