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Found 120 results

  1. Welcome one and all, as I invoke the most potent of muses: half-baked rambling! Part one: Ground work It's probably for the best if I lay down some basic premises that I'm working from for clarity. Premise one: all arcana found on Roshar are, at their root, emanations of the Surges. Surgebinding, Voidbinding, fabrials, the "even more esoteric" system that Khriss theorises in the Roshar essay, the powers of the Unmade, the forms of the singers and whatever else there might be. The possible exception is the Old Magic, which Brandon himself has called its own weird thing. Premise two: Odium is fully capable of granting access to all ten Surges, the lack of Adhesion Fused is deliberate on Rayse's part. It makes more sense to me that he'd just copy/access the existing framework of Surgebinding, rather than building his own, separate 9/10 of Surgebinding. Premise three: there are Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of every Surge, as well as "Radiant" and "Voidish" expressions of the same. Part two: What was Rayse afraid of? What do mean by that? Under my interpretation, Rayse deliberately withheld Adhesion from the Fused, which seems odd. Why would he want his servants to only have access to nine of the Surges? Are Bondsmiths not proof that Adhesion can be an incredible boon to your forces? Even if they don't have access to the level of power of a Radiant Bondsmith, they should still have access to the same Adhesion abilities, just weaker. Having a couple of Fused who could act as walking batteries for the extremely Light-hungy Nex-im, for instance, feels like a great force multiplier. We can also infer that Odium can grant access to Adhesion, as a limited expression of it is the simplest explanation for the abilities of envoyform, making the lack of Adhesion Fused even more glaring. You might at this point be wondering why I claim that Rayse was afraid of something, only to blather about why it's weird that there are no Adhesion Fused instead. Worry not, I'll get to that. So, what do we know of Rayse's goals? Rayse wants to be the top dog in the cosmere and he wants to remain Odium. Rayse wants to be free to go on his murder rampage, so he does not want to Invest Odium anywhere, so as to not anchor him to a system. We can even track a possible modus operandi, as the Unmade are implied to have been something else in the past and several Voidspren show the telltale red of corrupted Investiture, which suggests to me that Rayse would typically twist existing things to serve him, rather than creating those things himself. We can also see this in his actions as tempter on Ashyn and his goal to make Rosharan humanity his army, after the cycle of Desolations has toughened them up enough. We also know that prior to the False Desolation and related events Roshar had two Pure Tones, after it had three. This implies to me that something that happened there Invested Odium on Roshar. Something we can guess didn't happen at Rayse's volition. Now, you might ask "why would being Invested be a problem to Rayse? Surely he'd not be morally conflicted at reclaiming any part of his that got Invested somewhere?" And no, I don't think he'd have a moral problem with taking back his power, but I don't think he can, or at least it's hard for him. As other people have already noted, for instance the thread speculating that Division is Odium's Truest Surge, Odium generally stands for something divisive, just as Honor can be seen as uniting. And yes, both can switch places, but hatred generally pushes you away from people and following some form of framework generally makes you part of a group. As just one example, we can see these thematic elements of Odium and Honor in the Surgebinders: Knights Radiant are a union of spren and humans (traditionally), working together to do things neither can do alone. Fused are solitary, forgoing even the normal relationship between spren and singer, as well as casting out the soul of the singer whose body they inhabit. And Odium's forces have other thematic divisions or separations as well: Most of the Fused have lost track of their original goal, being unlikely to relinquish rule to the common singers if they actually won. They are no longer fighting for their stated goal and are thematically separated from themselves. The former parshmen have been denied both the opportunity to make their own future and the ties they gained to the various national cultures of Roshar, they are separated both from their own self-determination and cultural roots. Moash/Vyre is very straightforward, he's separated from his emotions. The Unmade are separated from whatever they were before they were Unmade. And, while he's not known to be on Odium's side, Renarin's bond to an Enlightened spren sets him apart from normal Radiants. So, Odium is a (generally) separating force, so what? Well, that, along with the idiosyncracies noted by robardin, I believe, last week, points to that Odium might have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture. -Oathbringer, chapter 118 -Rhythm of War, chapter 112 -Rhythm of War, chapter 111 For all Rayse's threatening he apparently can't make good on the threat to force the Fused to stay away or to punish a traitor? It seems to be a lot of bluster. So what would Rayse be afraid of? Becoming Invested somewhere, hindering his murder-athon and, by extention, someone else being able to manipulate Odium's Investiture freely. Thus my conclusion is that Rayse wouldn't risk having Bondsmith-alike Fused, on the off chance that they'd so something Bondsmith-y, resulting in some of his power going where he doesn't want it. This might also be why the Everstorm doesn't infuse gems, though I do believe that Voidlight naturally cycles back to Odium, even if it can't be actively reclaimed. Also that Rayse seems like a blithering idiot for not following the Returned design philosophy, but then again, it's entirely possible he couldn't tweak that to run only on Voidlight, rather than Investiture over all. A side-note at the end of this is also that I think it could be possible that the Fused getting a passive and an active effect from their Light might be a conscious design descision on Rayse's part, as an attempt to make less of Odium's Investiture circulate. Part three: Unmade, Surges and cousinspren So, what's the deal? Well, there's this WoB: Which has of course had people trying to find which one maps to which Order, though note that Brandon says it's not a perfect match. I have personally thought that the Unmade should fill the Bondsmith spot, being parallel to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I'm fully prepared to accept that this might be the case, that bonding an Unmade produces a Bondsmith, even though the power of the spren itself isn't in the same slot. However, I recently encountered something that shifted my perspective and made me think that this might not be the case. Now, as I stated in part one, I believe that whatever the Unmade powers are, they fully fit within the context of the Surges. I also favour the cousinspren method of parallels, as each cousinspren seems able to manifest the primary Surge of the associated Radiant Order, e.g. windspren known to stick things together, a manifestation of Adhesion. (I do think that properly what I call the primary Surge would be denoted secondary Surge, as otherwise the Radiant Order that lacks a corresponding Fused Brand is Windrunners, not Bondsmiths. But I'm gonna use primary, since that's the order they're listed in.) Now, we need to be conscious of that there are three Unmade we don't really know anything about; Ba-Ado-Mishram, as all her Connection and Bondsmith-seeming shenanigans don't seem to have been a thing before the False Desolation, going by the Gem archive, that being her only known abilities makes it hard to line her up with anything, as it's apparently not her base powerset, Dai-Gonarthis, who is an almost complete unknown and Chemoarish who is much the same. That in mind, let's make a list! Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion Unmade: Yelig-nar I personally believe that Yelig-nar's ability to grant all Surges possibly comes from an application of Adhesion, similar to the Bondsmith ability to manipulate the Surges of other Radiants. He also fits thematically, being known as Blightwind. Skybreaker/Surge of Gravitation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish We have not seen the influence of any Unmade that I would assume uses a form of Gravitation, leaving only the three unknowns. Dustbringer/Surge of Division Unmade: Nergaoul Nergaoul's power could well be a Cognitive manifestation of Division, it both breaks down resolve and discipline and causes people to fight like individuals, not soldiers. Thematically the total loss of control of the Thrill is absolutely counter to the Dustbringer theme of self-mastery. Edgedancer/Surge of Abrasion Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish Not much to say here, again I don't think an Unmade we've properly seen the influence of lines up. Thematically Chemoarish might fit, being known as Dustmother, but that is tenuous. Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression Unmade: Moelach Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation od the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is. Lightweaver/Surge of Illumination Unmade: Re-Shephir Shallan directly compares her to a creationspren, confirmed to be the cousinspren of Cryptics. Thematically she makes tangible darkness where Lightweavers make ephemeral light. Elsecaller/Surge of Transformation Unmade: Sja-anat Sja-anat changes spren, the most straightforward cause of which would be Transformation. Thematically she's also semi-present in both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, in addition, she's called Taker of Secrets, contrasting the scholarly characterisation of the Elsecallers, she aquires the knowledge of others rather than making new knowledge. Willshaper/Surge of Transportation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish The last Surge which no Unmade seems to have exhibited thus far, making it hard to guess. Stoneward/Surge of Cohesion Unmade: Ashertmarn Ashertmarn could be placed in a few different spots, and I myself have previously gone with Abrasion, but after some consideration I think that the power of the Heart of the Revel is possibly a Cognitive manifestation of the Surge of Cohesion, making people soft and pliable. Thematically the hedonism of Ashertmarn can also be seen as an inversion of the Stoneward theme of being where they need to be. Well, that took absolutely forever to type, if you made it here, thanks for reading. I hope it's all (fairly) clear and possible to follow, though I know I tend to ramble. Discussion both welcome and encouraged. ¤_¤
  2. Mid-Range Game 53: Unmade, Remade The lights were beautiful to Sja-anat. Each light was a tiny flame, a soul or a spren. There wasn't much difference in the long run. Some were brighter, some were darker. And others had that slight tint, the tiny bit of rightness that she'd granted them. She'd been working on that. It had been hard, but it had worked and it made her proud. She'd successfully Enlightened spren without the other Unmade noticing their alterations. Odium may have noticed, but he was distracted as of late. Something about that Kholin fellow. Regardless, Odium had boundaries. Sja-anat's power had been Remade; his influence was too faint to directly limit her anymore. He'd notice that eventually. And Odium could not stand defiance for too long - he'd send his Unmade to bring her back, Unmake her once more, and teach her a lesson while they were at it. Sja-anat smirked. Well, it was time to learn just how far she could stretch this. LG start, LG D4 start, same thing. Hello! Welcome to Mid-Range Game 53: Unmade, Remade! This game is a modified conversion game centered on Sja-anat's attempt to defect from Odium's forces and bring down the rest of the Unmade along side her. Please note however this game is RoW-spoiler free (I made most of it about a year ago) and has all the Unmade together... because. General Rules: Unmade Roles: Voidspren Roles: Death Rattles: I'm the GM, I currently don't have a coGM. I kind of want to try this without a co-GM though. @Devotary of Spontaneity will be the IM. The game will start on Saturday, September 18th, at 12:00 PM / Noon PST. Let me know if you'd like to join or have any questions! Player List: Spectators/Pinch Hitters: Quick Links: (What did I miss)
  3. Ok. I'm new but I've tried to at least be mostly thorough while digging through the forums for my ideas and/or supporting evidence. My new job allows for many hours of audio (by far my preferred method) and allowed me to start binging Shardcast, something I had little time for previously. An episode I watched recently talked about deadeyes and The Recreance. A WoB was mentioned that talked about the deadeyes being similar to something that happened previously in the cosmere. The argument on shardcast was the situation one like Seones (Maybe spelled right?) Or shades on Threnody. The majority of the crew heavily sided with similar to Seones, and most posts I have read speak very little of shades. This is my thoughts. There are WAY too many clues about BAM and the recreance. WAY too many. The entire narrative is directing you straight at it. Well, all the Mistborn epigraph was trying to point you straight at Vin. Well, now there's Harmony. Ya know? So why would Brandon put out dozens and dozens of blatant clues that BAM was the cause of deadeyes? Simple misdirection. Here is my actual theory. The problems on Threnody started because Ambition was basically killed by Odium. Now we have Shades. My best research has been able to provide, Honor was dying in the time leading up to The Recreance. His death probably coincided very close with The Recreance. Seones issues were caused by Elantris magic system being directly connected to the landscape. That is NOT the case on Roshar. The landscape changed. The Seones changed. On Roshar, the singers were connected to BAM, not the Radiant Spren creating Nahel Bonds. The radiant spren as far as I can tell are connected to Honor (some more than others). So what if the parshmen lost their form because of the imprisonment of BAM. But the deadeye were because of the death of Honor. I love new information so feel free to prove me wrong. Totally want the real details. But I feel the shades on Threnody are what was referred to in the WoB. Not the Seones. I am reasonably confident this theory has merit. BUT The secondary part of my theory maybe is a lot more fluid and all that. So, if the deadeyes are mainly affected by the death of Honor, and a VERY good chance also that it was connected to Honor breaking his own oathes. Spren are connected to Honor. Honor breaks his oathes and dies. Radiant oathes being broken now cause deadeyes. This happened near simultaneously with The Recreance. A huge theory I see getting repeated is Kaladin taking up the Shard of Honor. (Sometimes Dalinar and others) BUT I think Adolin has shown more Honor than anyone. He is the 1 throughout many books, he has shown kindness to slaves and servants, common soldiers. He is always championing whatever "righteous cause" comes along. Who is closer to Honor? I had a wild theory before about Adolin being Honors champion. But what if, instead of Dalinar or Kaladin, Adolin became Honor! A bit of supporting evidence or implications or whatever. Similar to the beginning part of my theory. Sanderson loves misdirection. I see a lot of mention of Adolin as a "side character". Sazed was a side character for all the same reasons Adolin. As far as I am concerned Adolin and Sazed are on the same level of side/main character. Now we have Harmony. Whether or not it is Adolin, I think when the shard of Honor had coalesced in whichever way and finds another vessel, the new vessel will renew the oathes and free the deadeyes. I believe near simultaneously, right before, right after, which have you. In a very similar timeline BAM will be released and fix any issues still with the singers. I'd love to hear any feedback pro or con. I really hope my idea isn't completely stale and repetitive as I'm late to the forum party. Lol.
  4. Disclaimer: I'll be citing many things I read in the course of time, but I lack the energy to reference WoBs or other theories, so I apologize if I talk about something that has been confirmed as incorrect! Hey! First post here After finishing Rhythm of War and spoiling myself a lot through many reads of coppermind, I spent this whole year reading through cosmere theories over here and on reddit too. I'm a huge fan of many theories that are around, and one of the things that I'm really curious about is the origin of the unmade. There are many theories around, some a bit more elaborated than others. There is one linking them to the dawncities (mostly based on what the Sibling said about Raboniel unmaking them) and though I like it, I think it'd be a bit of a stretch (perhaps I'm wrong). There are also many theories linking them to the Heralds but for some reason I don't feel super happy about them either... However, yesterday I was reading a theory on Ba-Ado-Mishram having a human/singer part called Mishram (because of stuff like how she was called a "highprincess" or how Kalak talks about Mishram in such a coloquial way) and that got me thinking. Maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but we could say that Heralds more or less are spren, in the sense that they are cognitive shadows and we know they get affected by Roshar's population's conceptions about them (I think this was confirmed on a WoB but I might be wrong). I always assumed the Unmade were originally a spren of high tier like Cusicesh or even higher like the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher, but what if they were actually people, or aspects of people? When talking about lesser spren, we know of the nature ones just like flamespren, windspren, etc. and the "emotion" ones like angerspren, joyspren, etc. In this tier we also have creationspren, logicspren and some others that don't really represent emotions but something more like concepts. Then we have the "truespren" or what we could call the radiantspren. I'm not really sure what are they, I think it was confirmed on a WoB that the 9 kinds were created by Honor and Cultivation (though I know spren in general predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar). So, radiantspren might be the cognitive representation of ideals ? I mean, for honorspren that's quite straightforward of the ideal of honor (not as a shard but as a general ideal) but mistspren, cryptics, inkspren, etc. are more hard to tie to a specific ideal, though we could say ALL radiant spren are tied to the ideals represented by the radiant order associated with them. Relating the last thing to the Heralds, we know there are certain ideals of values tied to each one (creativity and honesty for Shalash for example, I don't recall the other ones). Maybe this ideals used to have a spren of some sort, or maybe the cognitive nature of the Heralds got tied to these values because of how long people associated them. There are many theories around that link the Heralds' madness to their ideals, and there's a WoB confirming their madness is a magical one. What if the unmade are an aspect of the heralds that was taken from them by Odium, causing their madness and also explaining how many of them are mindless and represent specific "bad" things like Ashtermarn or Nergaoul? There are a couple of problems with this theory. First, we should establish when this happened. I don't know how old the Unmade are, so I'm asking you guys, does this make sense chronologically? In Dalinar's vision fighting the Midnight Essence, the KR already existed but we know the Oathpact and the Heralds predate the KR. My theory would be that Odium unmade the Unmade when the Heralds broke the Oathpact (explaining why there are 9, since Taln didn't break), but I'm not sure when this happened. It could have happened after Honor's death maybe? There's also another problem: as far as we know, the 10 Heralds are insane. If the unmade were part of the 9 that stayed, Taln shouldn't be insane, but he is. We could say he is insane because he was tortured alone for 4500 years with no rest, but he regained clarity along with Ash in Thaylen City's battle, so probably his madness is magical too. Anyway, sorry for the wall of text and let me hear what you think!
  5. theory

    This theory started as yet another attempt to match the Unmade and KR Orders (using new information from RoW, the KR Quiz etc.), but after revising my last attempt I realized that I actually completely agree with the classification created by @Bzhydack in this post: This has lead me to some interesting theories about Chemoarish and Yelig-Nar (which I believe match Stonewards and Skybreakers, respectively). In this post I'll focus just on Chemoarish. We don't really have much information on her: she's apparently often conflated with the Nightwatcher (probably implying some connection to Cultivation) and she's called a Dustmother. The latter might be a link to Dustbringers, but Nergaoul seems to match them quite well (direct inversion of their Ideal, captured in a ruby etc.). I believe, however, that Chemoarish makes sense if we treat her as an Unmade of Stone, which, as we know from Venli's chapters in RoW, also seems to be connected to Cultivation somehow. This leads me to this fragment we find in Dalinar's last vision in TWoK (chapter 75): I think what is described here might actually be Chemoarish
  6. Preface: I'm definitely not super sold on this, but the thought came to me so I wanted to put it down in the best place to get other people to either shut it down or upgrade it) I thin Cultivation might have been involved in enabling the False Desolation. By which I don't mean she wanted it, but that she had something to do with Ba-Ado-Mishram. (TL;DR/theory in a few sentences at the bottom) The facts that lead me to this thought: - Ba-Ado-Mishram's ability to grant forms of power and Voidlight in the False Desolation was new, somehow. She didn't do that in previous desolations. - She's the only Unmade with two hyphens. Yes, it's time for a bit of morphology. She's also referred to by Kalak as "Mishram". This might be refering to what BAM was before being Unmade, and maybe Unmade Mishram was Ado-Mishram before becoming what she is now. As dumb as this sounds, I think the second hyphen might indicate involvement by another shard. At first I thought "hm, but who? Cultivation I guess, because she's the only one left", but a few more pieces of information might play into it. BAM gained new abilities somehow, which she didn't have before. These include being able to create Voidlight. Cultivation is able to do something similar. She both a) created a magic system together with Honor that uses Honor's Investiture but not hers and b ) gave Lift the ability to fuel her Surgebinding with Lifelight anyway. BAM was something before she was unmade. I like the idea that Odiums truest/signature Surge is Division, so I'm postulating that "Unmaking" isn't exactly a unique process, but Odiums Version of "changing an invested Being" or something like that. Point is, Odium isn't the only one who can change Spren, but Unmaking is just his version. (For exmaple, if Ruin were to do something similar, it'd end up with a Spren weaker and "less" than it was before, due to Ruin's nature) Another Shard could be able to do that too. We know that Ruin isn't the only shard able to control someone with spikes, so it can be argued that just like Future Sight and SpikeControl, any shard - whose intent wouldn't inhibit that - can corrupt or change investisture. Cultivation is training the Nightwatcher to understand human's better, for a reason we don't really know. This hasn't always been the case, but is a fairly recent development. (I can't find a source for this but I remember it being this way, I'd welcome any WoB or quote that either proves or disproves this). Cultivation, like Honor, was a god of the Singers and Spren before they swapped with Odium. Singers and Spren were affected by Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment, but at that point in Time Odium was the god of only one of those groups, not both. Cultivation's plans have involved an Unmade on-screen once already. Cultivation is said to have excellent Future-Sight, and we have not heard from Sja-Anat that she was in contact with Cultivation, so Sja-Anat leading Odium to Nightblood (whom Cultivation might also have had a hand in creating) was either something they planned together or, more likely, part of Cultivation's plan. From a Meta Standpoint, the dead Shard Honor has been much more present in the fight against Odium than the alive shard Cultivation so far, and I think that that is not because she's inactive, but because her plans (as we saw with Taravangian in RoW or Dalinar in OB) are slow and long. Ever since Secret History, it's clear that Shards aren't easy to group into "good" and "bad". Preservation was good in comparison to Ruin, but would've been happy with an enternity of the Lord Ruler ruling Scadrial. Cultivation herself acknowledges she can't always control what happens to things she helps grow. To put it meanly, a Cancer cell is pretty aligned with Cultivation's intent, growth for the sake of growth is growth nonetheless. Now, to put the theory into words: I think Cultivation changed the Unmade that we now know as Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow. In a time of Odium's Absence/occupation with torturing Heralds, Cultivation "enhanced" (her version of the process which is "unmaking" for Odium) the Unmade, granting her new abilities in the process. As one of the godesses of Spren and Singers and Roshar itself, this process made Ba-Ado-Mishram more connected to those than she had been before. Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment didn't create Deadeyes and Slaveform because of what she was before being Unmade, but because of the new part of her that was of Cultivation. So, the timeline of BAM would be like this: 1. "Mishram", whatever she was before being unmade. Kelek refers to her as this in a respectful/appreciate way, possibly because he knew what "Mishram" was before, 2. "Ba-Mishram", one of the 9 Unmade for the longest time. 3. Ba-Ado-Mishram, now changed once more by Cultivation, granted new abilities. The "ado" in her name comes from "adoda", meaning Light- A kind of pseudo-sibling, with both Odium and Cultivation's touch in her. She starts the False Desolation and her imprisonment taints all the other beings touched by Cultivations presence on Roshar. The Nightwatcher probably became Cultivation's "main project" only afterwards. Whether the false desolation was an intended or unintended consequence, I have no idea. Whether BAM wanted to betray Odium or even usurp him and came to Cultivation because of that, or if Cultivation "hijacked" BAM, I'm unsure. What do you guys think? Tinfoil hat theory, or might there be some merit to it?
  7. (In case this has been posted or asked before, which I wouldn't be surprised by, please redirect me to that threat) so a friend has recently finished Oathbringer and I ended up saying "imagine if somehow Dalinar bonded Nergaoul", had a chuckle, and now I'm here. Do you think it could be possible to bond Unmade? I'll list arguments that I can come up with, would be interested to hear more. And much more interesting, further down, what could those bonds look like. Con: - The Process of Unmaking might make this impossible by itself, even if it was possible before, whatever the Unmade were before. This might be why the Sibling was so afraid of being Unmade. That could also be because they were afraid that even after "death" they might have to bond someone again. - The Unmade have differing levels of Intelligence/Sapience. Like most Spren, some of the Unmade are more like animals or not even that, just personified forces, than thinking beings. Maybe the more "intelligent" ones would be able to bond, but something like Ashertmarn would probably make a bond partner as enticing as a Windspren, only with more corruption. Pro: - The Sibling was afraid of "being unmade". The Sibling was able to bond Navani. - Re-Shephir tried to establish some kind of Bond with Shallan. Again, we don't know if this would be a Nahel Bond, the possible Odium-equivalent, or something unique to the Midnight Mother. - when imprisoning Nergaoul, Dalinar states (which he probably assumes) that it would only be able to be captured by someone who "deeply, sincerely, understands it". On one hand, this would mean that some kind of connection between an Unmade and a Person (using this as an umbrella term for any bond-able species) is atleast possible. Of course, that could also just be something like Blackthorn Dalinar really vibing with the Thrill. - On the other hand, this would mean that the Lightweaver that once imprisoned Re-Shephir had a sufficient connection/understanding of it. I'm imagining some kind of Lightweaver whose thruths involve something along the lines of "i don't understand people" or "I feel like I'm not part of my species" or some kind of alienating experience that was close enough to Re-Shephirs imitate-to-understand. - Yelig-Nar. That was definitely some kind of bond, but it seems to have more in common with posession than any kind of mutual agreement. Maybe the "swollow this gemstone to imitate having a Gemheart" tactic could work with other Unmade too. - Sja-Anat, or the Enlightened Spren. They are able to bond humans and singers. Granted, Enlightening and Unmaking are probably two distinct processes, but probably not dissimilar. If Enlightened Spren can bond people, maybe Spren could too. Speculation on Bonds: okay, now for the fun part. Let's assume it's possible to bond Unmade, somehow, in a fashion similar to the Nahel Bond, or similar to the Yelig-Nar version aka more close to Forms of Power. Let's get to speculating, I want to hear some crackpot theories. Here are a few of my own: All unmade: A bond with someone might grant even the "dumb" Unmade more Sapience and Intelligence, especially in the physical realm. It might able be able to save or protect them from the threat of being re-unmade, something especially Sja-Anat could be interested in. Now I'm scared of Sja-Anat bonding a Ghostblood member. Additionally, the Heavenly Ones have 9 Surges, and there's 9 Unmade. They might also grant you one of the Voidlight Surges. Ashertmarn: Congratulations! If your new spren is capable of spoken thought, you're now on your path to either passionately or under oath pursue hedonistic revel. Any powers? I doubt it. Ashertmarn would just continue doing what it does anyway and make it so you always have party-people around you. Very close to "Passion" in intent I think, so maybe like with Honorspren he might actually have some kind of oaths, or rather convictions that his bondpartner should subscribe to, stuff like "I will live every moment to the fullest" and "I will persue pleasure" Surge: Cohesion? Ba-Ado-Mishram: She was able to sustain the false Desolation, so I assume you would be able to do something similar to how Dalinar can now open a Perpendiculary for a bit. Again, BAM wouldn't really need you for that. I'm not surprised the Ghostbloods want to find BAM. Surge: Gravitation? Chemoarisch: We know too little here. Surge: Division, because she's the "Dustmother"? Dai-Gonarthis: I've read someone say that he's basically already bonded to Moash somehow, which I don't remember anywhere in the book. He definitely is the one taking Moash's sorrow, but I doubt he needs a bond for that. If he does, he's probably a great partner if you plan to go do war crimes and not feel bad about it. Seems like a Bond with the Black Fisher could be similar to a Lightweaver one, only you double down on your bad qualities instead of confronting them. Source: Abrasion? Moelach: Future Sight, yay. Glys on Steroids, maybe. Surge: Illumination, in the same way as Renarin has it? Nergaoul: We've seen a close approximation of this with the Blackthorn, right? Moelach seems to be on that threshhold of Sapience that he might genuinely profit from a bond, and either him or Ashertmarn are the closest to "Passion", only his convictions would be more like "I will kill" and "I will seek the fight". Surge: Transportation? Lezian-like, swapping bodies taken by the Thrill? Re-Shephir: Prime Candidate for a bond. She already tried to get something like that to Shallan. the Midnight Essence might be available to her bondpartner too, she would gain more understanding, which she seems to seek. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one that actually happens on screen somehow. Whether in a gemheart or with a bond or some sort I have no idea. "a creature of instinct that is drawn to violence and pain", as coppermind puts it, puts her, in my opinion, on that important threshhold. Surge: Tension. Sja-anat: The other Prime Candidate, right? Enlightened Spren, Renarin, etc... I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of bond is a huge safety measure for her in case Odium tries to re-unmake her. I can't quite imagine what a bond with her would do for someone, but it would surely be interesting. "The taker of Secrets" sounds like someone who might otherwise have been a Lightweaver, Truthwatcher or Elsecaller could be a candidate. What would you say, who would be a scarier potential partner for her? Iyatil, or Jasnah? Surge: Transformation Yelig-nar: Well, we've kind of seen this, right? Your own source of Surges AND Voidlight to use them and cool Skin Cristals! Surge: Progession
  8. Apologies if it has been discussed or I've forgotten something. What would happen to a sapient spren if it was captured in a gem? We've obviously seen lower spren be captured and we've seen Unmade like the Thrill and Ba-Ado-Mishram (kinda seen) be captured, but what about the in-between? Could you manifest some effect from a fabrial made with a Sapient spren? What would happen if the gem was broken and the spren escaped (would the spren experience a loss of function, cognition, etc.). (I think this has been somewhat discussed in some Shardcasts about Ba-Ado-Mishram.) Does this affect bonds (thinking Nahel) in strange ways?
  9. I can’t get this idea out of my head, and I haven’t been able to find folks talking about it, so I thought I’d put it to the hive mind. If this has been debunked already or is being discussed elsewhere please let me know. Also, strap in, because this gets long and rambling. Possibly mad. Theory: I think the Unmade are the Dawncities (Dawnspren) In the same way the Sibling is Urithiru. I think that Odium unmade the Dawncity spren, most likely with their consent, by offering them more freedom in the physical realm, but at a cost he played down. And the Singers either helped Odium accomplish this, or choose to attune his Rhythms anyway after seeing it happen, which I believe most other Spren would see as horrifying and unforgivable. So reasons I think this: Brandon’s world building, and foreshadowing are masterful. And anytime we get big exposition dumps and insight into the structure of a shardworld or the Cosmere (pretty much all of Oathbringer and RoW) he’s usually setting up mechanics for later stories and reveals. So we learn in RoW: The Shards are Sound. They’re vibrational energy that can be perceived as a Tone as well as light (Iridescent Tones anyone?) People can blend those tones to create new harmonious or dissonant tones/light, and Shards can blend their tones/light to shape the stone of Roshar and with Intent create a massive sapient spren. Those spren can be Unmade. Exactly like we see Raboniel doing to the sibling, but Odium would be doing this at a much greater scale, and more quickly. Add to that to all the comparisons between Urithiru and Kholinar’s strata in Oathbringer. So here’s some wild speculation: Before the Shattering, Adonalsium creates the Rosharan system, and the planet of Roshar. He is God, and as God created an ineffable and infinite universe. But maybe, the part of Adonalsium that is sentient and personal, wanted to create an Eden. A place of perfect harmony and symbiosis where the perfect tones of Adonalsium ring through the cosmere. Regardless, he makes the system and the planet, and it is the Garden of Eden, for crabs. As part of this elegant and divine ecological system Adonalsium uses his pure tones to shape the Dawncities, which is why they look like cymatic patterns, and in that shaping gives the Dawncities sentience and effectively creates the first spren. Or maybe creates it all simultaneously, because he’s God. So crab folks have a place to live, the continent itself talks to them and cares for them (there has to be a spren of Roshar, the closest real world analog I can find is Roshii, Japanese for old teacher. And often associated with a Turtle. Shelled creature. That cannot be a coincidence when the other two planets are called Ashyn and Braize- the burnt and the burning, respectively.) Tangent aside, these folk are happy as clams. They’re singing to their stones, and the stones are singing back. All is peaceful, and harmonious and in perfect symbiotic stasis. And probably so, so, boring. As Raboniel tells us, and shows us with her actions, the Singers are more inclined to work within natural systems, than push the boundaries of the systems. Enter Hoid, and/or the 16 original vessels, I think as the Cosmere developed, life found ways to travel and eventually stumbled upon this idyllic crab world and Hoid got to dance with a Dawnsinger. (Although this could definitely have happened post shattering) I think that their visits to Roshar may have seeded the jealousy and ambition that led to the shattering So Hoid and the vessels leave, shatter Adonalsium, scoop up some god bits and ascend to limited divinity, hoping to go make they’re own little paradises. Then they realize, oh damn, we did not understand what we were getting into. They agree to go their separate ways, and play with their own toys in their own rooms. Hoid gets no toys. Honor and Cultivation make their way back to Roshar, because it calls to their respective Intents, and set up shop. But it’s chugging right along because it was designed by God to be a perpetual investiture machine, and doesn’t really require him to be “present”. Honor and Cultivation start experimenting and copying what Adonalsium did with the original spren(Dawncities), and from this we get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the True Spren. Enter Odium. He’s been wandering around the Cosmere, splintering shards, like one does. Sees Honor and Cultivation and says: I am going to break their toys, and then break them. He enters the system, sets up shop on Ashyn, and either creates human life there, or he appropriates humans that settled there pre or post shattering. Odium pushes these humans’ passions to such an extent that they break their planet. Honor and Cultivation allow refugees to come to Roshar, and set up a nice ecological reserve for them, they just need to follow some rules. The Serpent is in the Garden. I think allowing the humans onto Roshar, gave Odium the foothold he needed to work around Honor and Cultivation. Probably through some Connection mumbo-jumbo. Because it definitely allowed Odium to become a pure Tone of Roshar, which I don’t think he was entirely just being in the Rosharan system. Odium becoming a pure tone that the Singers could hear would definitely influence their feelings about him and would allow him to spread his promises and suggestions, like the proverbial serpent from Genesis. And convincing 9 of the most powerful spren on the planet; the Dawncities themselves, to embrace their passions and take his light/tone, would be very thematically consistent with Odiums Intent. (Also don’t think the similarities between the Unmade and the Nazghul are coincidence. 9 unmade, 9 nine rings of temptation, 9 kings, come on.) So Odium corrupts and unmakes the Unmade, and probably creates the Fused at the same time with similar promises. Then he pushes those humans still loyal to him to start a war. Honor, Cultivation, and most of the spren, see this as a horrific betrayal. They swear off the Singers and convince those humans disillusioned with Odium to fight against him for the good of the planet. Honor copies Odiums idea with the Unmade but tweaks it a bit to create the Heralds. Ishar uses his knowledge of Connections to create the Oathpact. Which binds Odium to Braize, and probably stops him from being able to unmake any more spren, or make more Fused. But the Heralds constantly bending/breaking their oaths while intrinsically bonded to the god of Oaths create the opening needed to splinter Honor. Similar to what Odium says to Dalinar when they’re hashing out the details for the contest of champions. Whew, ok. Done now. Timeline may be a bit wonky, but I think it fits.
  10. theory

    I've been almost completly certain of this for a while now, but I finally have confirmation. The Shin have been worshiping an Unmade. I know it's crazy, but hear me out. There is most definetly an Unmade in Shinovar Additionally Ishar says So we know almost without doubt that there was at least one Unmade in Shinovar, however that doesn't prove that they were being worshipped. The Shin hold the Heralds in high reguards, minor deities, but why would they refuse to return their weapons? Unless a higher power told them not to. What did Ishar know? The only thing Ishar said that he shouldn't have already known, was that the Shin were worshiping an Unmade.
  11. Are the Ten Deaths just the 9 unmade plus the stormfather?
  12. So I am listening to the newest Shardcast, and as usual I came up with a new theory. The latest Shardcast is discussing Ba-Ado-Mishram, and as they were spitballing some things I have come up with a hot take on the origins of this most mysterious Unmade. So there is some mention in Oathbringer/WoR epigraphs (I believe the Hessi's Mythica sequence) that Ba-Ado-Mishram was "A Highprincess of the enemy forces" and this seems to imply that she was some kind of mortal. Of course, this is in-book research so there can be all kinds of Recreance shenanigans. Later, in RoW, Kalak references a character called Mishram, with a certain amount of familiarity. Also, there is one point in RoW part 2 (maybe, don't have the book on me right now but it's the scene where the Fused and Venli are invading Urithiru) where Rabonial swears by "Ado," which as one Shardcaster pointed out is the first part of the Alethi glyph for light- and also similar to Adonalsium. In addition, and I'm not sure this is relevant, Chaos keeps pointing out that there are not one, but two hyphens in Ba-Ado-Mishram's name, which is unique among the Unmade. Ba-Ado-Mishram has some kind of Connection to the Parsh, Spren, and Roshar as a whole, which is unusual since Adhesion (the Surge of Connection) is called "Honor's purest Surge." My theory: Ado, the entity that Rabonial refers to, is the Spren of Lights (as in the physical representation of Investiture on Roshar), a being on a level with the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Mishram, the person that Kalak refers to, was once a mortal Singer who eventually bonded (in a Bondsmith-like process) with Ado, and then was corrupted/Unmade somehow by Odium, leading to the entity that modern Rosharans refer to as Ba-Ado-Mishram. The "Ba" in this case would mean something along the lines of "both" or "together." Let me know what ya'll think! I'm pretty new to theory crafting and I'd love to hear any thoughts you guys have on my style.
  13. Now that it's confirmed that there are only nine Surges usable by the Fused, as they don't believe Adhesion is a true Surge, I wonder if there's some significance to the Unmade? Re-Shephir was sealed away by a Lightweaver, right? What if there's a reason for that? I always found it strange how Shallan seemed to empathize so easily with Re-Shephir. I first became suspicious about Shardplate being manifested lesser spren after reading a question asked to Brandon about Kaladin often being followed by packs of windspren, and I started thinking what type of spren each order of Knights Radiant might manifest as Shardplate. That led me to think about the relationship between humans and singers, and spren, and I started wondering if the Unmade might correspond to an order of Radiants or Herald each, as well. Following this thread, it seems that the Unmade might be a subversion of the attributes associated with each order/Herald: Nergaoul might be the dark inversion of Taln's role as Herald of War, as Nergaoul inspires a bloodlust that robs war and combat of any higher or noble purpose. Ba-Ado-Mishram, as a commander of Odium's forces, might be a dark counter to Jezrien's role as Herald of Kings, the leader of humanity, or maybe to Ishar, as she manipulated Connection on a massive scale to bond with singers and provide Regals and Voidlight Sja-Anat's ability to corrupt spren may be a dark adaptation of the Truthwatchers' mission to spread truth through the populace and keep an eye on the world's leaders, but Sja-Anat's children serve as spies rather than whistleblowers. I'm of the opinion that, because the Fused see the Surge of Adhesion as a lie perpetrated by Honor, and it indeed it can't be suppressed by the Voidlight fabrial, one of the two orders that has that Surge will not have a corresponding Unmade. It just so happens that those two orders, the Bondsmiths and the Windrunners, were associated with leadership, the Bondsmiths with leadership of the Knights Radiant, the Windrunners with leadership of humanity at large. I wonder if there's any deeper significance to that, that maybe Odium didn't want an Unmade that was meant as a dark subversion of leaders. I'm not sure, and maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion, but hey, there's always another secret.
  14. So I know there have been a number of attempts over the years to match up the Unmade with the Heralds. In this post, I also try to match them up, but this isn't another theory about the Unmade being corrupted versions of or split off from the Heralds. Rather, I'm positing that the Unmade are drawn to (or maybe represent, or exacerbate) manifestations of the various forms of madness being experienced by the Heralds and the mal-adaptive ways they are trying to cope with their madness. I got the idea from a side tangent in another thread about whether a Bondsmith is necessary to entrap an Unmade. I think the consensus opinion there is that you don't necessarily need a Bondsmith, but you definitely need someone with a deep understanding of the particular Unmade. For example, Shallan is able to see that Re-Shephir is afraid of her because at some time in the past Re-Shephir had been imprisoned "by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature." (OB 30). This got me thinking more generally about how artifabrians have to attract spren with something they know in order to trap them in gems. But that idea of attraction also reminded me of something Jezrien (as Ahu) said during a drunken conversation with Dalinar in Oathbringer: Jezrien here seems to be drawing a line between the Heralds' madness and the Unmade. From context here, I take it that the "we" in his statements refers to the Heralds and the "them" to the Unmade. So, what might the Heralds have done to attract the Unmade? I think has something to do with the way the Heralds' minds are experiencing a sort of cognitive dissonance with human perceptions of them, and with the different ways that the Heralds are trying to cope with that madness. Here's a WOB on the subject: Shalash is the clearest example of this. Vorinism associates her with the divine attributes of creativity and honesty. But she knows the Heralds were dishonest, and is driven to destroy depictions (copies) of her. Her madness is characterized by the opposites of her attributes: Creativity - Copying; Honesty - Lies. This matches up pretty neatly with Re-Shephir, who we see is drawn to Shallan's lies (her illusions) and spawns copies of the violence she sees. Further, given Jezrien's belief that Dalinar had attracted the attention of an Unmade, I'm wondering if maybe the Unmade are not just drawn to the Heralds' madness or coping mechanisms but to others who exhibit the same behavior. Reasoning along these lines, here's my attempt to match up the Unmade with the Heralds. Of necessity I begin with the Heralds we have actually seen. After that, the theory obviously breaks down a bit, but I still try to find matches based on what we know about those Heralds: Shalash - Re-Shephir: discussed above, I don't think this pairing is controversial at all Jezrien - Ashertmarn:No longer protecting and leading, Jezrien deals with his madness by excessive drinking. This matches up with Ashertmarn, the mindless Unmade who urges people to indulge to excess and abandon their lives and responsibilities Nale - Dai-Gonarthis: Nale's madness manifests as a near-total lack of emotion. It's almost like a void that has consumed all emotion, which I think matches up with what little we know of Dai-Gonarthis (The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!). Also we see conjecture that Dai-Gonarthis was involved in the scouring of Aimia. Given what we've learned about the dangerous secret hidden in Aimia, the scouring reminds me of Nale's mission to find and kill proto-Radiants. Ishar - Ba-Ado-Mishram: I feel like these two match up given they're both very knowledgeable about Connection, and they both used Connection to serve as leaders of their respective organizations. Ishar's madness does manifest in opposition to his attributes of pious and guiding, as Ishar now blasphemes by claiming to be god and misleads both humankind and the other Heralds rather than guiding them. BAM also arguably blasphemed by trying to play the role of Odium in the False Desolation. Turned out to be a rather misguided plan. Kalak - Yelig-Nar: This one I'm not totally certain about, but there are connections. There's the Amaram connection. Kalak (as Restares) led the Sons of Honor, an organization in which Amaram played a prominent role. There's the amethyst connection. That's the polestone associated with Kalak's order, and Amaram bonds Yelig-Nar by swallowing an amethyst, and then grows carapace and amethyst crystals from his body. Kalak's madness manifests as indecisiveness, which is opposed to his resolute attribute, but I don't know if I see a Yelig-Nar connection there. The other attribute is builder, and Yelig'Nar seems to consume/destroy his hosts which fits. Battar - Moelach: I really don't have much on the madness theory with this one, but there are other reasons to match these two. First there's Battar's involvement (as Dova) with recording the Death Rattles. Moelach was said to grant visions of the future most commonly at the transition point between realms, when a soul is approaching the Tranquiline Halls. Battar's order, the Elsecallers are those most skilled at navigating the transition between realms. Battar's attributes are wisdom and care. If I wanted to stretch I could say that Moelach, as one of the mindless Unmade fits with the opposite of wisdom. And the actions of the silent gatherers certainly cut against the attribute of care. Vedel - Nergaoul: Although we don't know whether we've seen Vedel on screen at this point (Liss?) Nergaoul, the Unmade that inflames emotions and provokes bloodlust, war, and violence, seems a pretty good opposite to Vedel's attributes of loving and healing Pailiah - Sja-Anat: Again, it's unclear if we've seen Pailiah on screen. (Brandon supposedly wrote in a signed book that she was the aged ardent in the Palanaeum in Way of Kings, but later seemed to back away from that). So I can't describe her madness except to say that I would expect it manifest as someone ignorant and selfish, the opposite of her attributes learned and giving. (Total side tangent crackpot theory: who exemplifies selfish ignorance more than Ialai? And the letters of her name are right there in Pailiah, but I digress, plus RIP) But again, I feel pretty good about this pairing given Sja'Anat's involvement with Pailiah's order, the Truthwatchers. Sja-Anat is the taker of secrets and the Truthwatchers are the most secretive order. Sja-Anat enlightens spren; Pailiah is learned. Sja-Anat can only be seen in reflected light and mistspren resemble the shimmer of light reflected through a crystal. Lots of connections. Chanarach - Chemoarish: just about the only thing we know about Chemoarish is that she's sometimes called the Dustmother, so matching with the patron of the Dustbringers just makes sense. Plus she's the only one left if you don't count Taln. That just leaves out Taln, who didn't have a chance to attract an Unmade with his madness on Roshar because he was holding down the fort in Braize for 4500 years. So there you have it. A somewhat different approach to trying to match up the Unmade with the Heralds. Interested in others' thoughts.
  15. So, many of us speculate, that BAM could become Bondsmith Spren. But this Theory goes further. Shortly, i think Ba-Ado-Mishram allready WAS Godspren and had a Bondsmith. During the False Desolation. FIrst, we know that BAM was earlier general of Odium's forces, but wasnt able to do what she did during False Desolation. Bonding with entire Race was new, not expected by anyone ability. And spren normaly dont have new abilities by themselves. Spren are gaining new abilities by Bond. Or no, they not have new abilities, more like they find new aplications for their abilities. In most cases this is ability to manifest in Physical Realm as Shardblades, and also ability to larger interaction with items, but for Powerfull Spren this can be something different. For Stormfather could be Visions, and also images, map and so on. We know also Bonding Unmade is possible, like with any other Spren. We also know killing Bondsmith Spren would have massive consequences for whole Roshar. Imprisonment could do the same. We can also assume that BAM was able to comand not only Singers, but also Voidspren. They are integral part of Odium's forces, essential for recon, as messengers, spies, or fight in the Cognitive. Maybe BAM could comand Voidspren to start bonding Singers and this was her main power as Unmade. But during False Desolation BAM had ability to provide Voidlight, exactly like Stormfather, Nightwatcher or Sibling. While Stormfather has this ability without Bondsmith, Sibling for example needet Bondsmith, at least now, with damaged Connection to Honor. BAM is even called little god. Like Godspren? So this theory goes on. There is two thousand years between Last Desolation and False Desolation. What Singers do during this time? They doesnt fight against Humans all the time. They live, eat, change forms. And research. And have songs about Forms of Power. Someone from them, some Singer Scientist came to conclusion than he can try mimic Human-Spren Bond and try to bond Unmade. And was able to do this. And I can gues who he was. It was EL. El, Fused with very, very specific behaviour. Is fascinating with Humans, so I can see why he could try mimic human-spren Bond. He also is scientist, good partner with Raboniel. He literaly experiments with his own body, by replacing carapace with metal. What metal is this? Could be Duralumin? But El is Fused. Shouldnt he be on Braise during False Desolation? I think not. Fused are locked on Braise, but probably like Heralds, they need to be killed first and be sent back. If he wasnt killed, if he hide among Singers, it is possiblity he would live on Roshar all the time between Last and False Desolation. So how all action with False Desolation goes? Radiants and Melishi are fighting against Singers and came to conclusion there is something wierd about Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram. Singers have Voidlight and Forms of Power, but Odium is still on Braize. Singers have Bondsmith now. So Melishi wants to go for BAM, even while he knows about Risk for all Roshar. Radiants strike Team assault Singers with El, and Melishi uses his Bondsmith Powers to ripp off Bond with BAM from El. He replaces his Bond with Sibling with Bond with BAM, then he summons BAM similary to what Dalinar did to Stormfather, and he puts her in perfect gemstone. El sees this, and he strikes Melishi and kills him, but is killed by Radiants companions of Melishi and is sent to Braize. Sibling is damaged but was temporarly unbonded, so damage wasnt lethal. Melishi probably wants to Bond Sibling again, but was killed. When Melishi ripps off El's Bond, El loses ability to hear Rythms (literaly the same happened to Sibling!). When El arrives on Braize suffers Odiums wrath and mistakes his lose with this. He also brings Raboniel knowledge about imprisonment spren in gemstones. This is why El is so important. Is first Odium Bondsmith, and he is the one who brings knowledge nesessery to kill Heralds. What do you think?
  16. Nergaoul is red according to the coppermind While every other unmade that we have seen, either in the physical realm or the cognitive has been black. Ashertmarn - black - Re-Shephir - black - Sja-Anat - black - But Yelig-nar is different while all of his form is black in shadesmar, when he enters a host in the physical realm the eyes of the host turn red. Note: While we haven't seen Dia-Gonarthis, he is sometimes called the black fisher. But red investiture in the Cosmere is corupted investiture. But a lot of Odiums forces are red. I would like to thank for pointing this pattern among voidspren and Fused alike as well. Some of his spren are golden but the others are red, Ulim, stormspren, and Fused eyes. In Oathbringer there is even a quote where Pattern is translatting an Ashspren for the hero's and says, "There are many varieties, she says. Some of golden light, others are red shadows. Curious yes." In all all lot of Odium's own forces are red which means they are corrupted, then some spren are golden, and then finally most of his Unmade are black, but Odium's own investiture is golden and violet not black (as black is ruins color) so what is happening. And why are all but a few of his forces wrong.
  17. I can’t find the quote, but sometime in RoW as Raboniel is corrupting the Sibling, Venli (I think) mentions she is using the Surge of Transformation. The Sibling reveals to Navani that Raboniel is Unmaking them. In WoR, Pattern implies that Shallan used the same Surge to convert the deserters, meaning that Transformation seemingly has uses beyond Soulcasting. Would it be too much of a stretch to assume Jasnah or a member of the Unseen Court could unUnmake (or Remake) one of the Unmade?
  18. Sorry for another thread about the Unmade, especially theory, because I know we have WAAAAAY too many of those lying around the Shard. However, a passage in RoW got me thinking about them again, when I had solemnly vowed(okay, I hadn't) to stop with the outlandish Unmade theories. The passage I'm thinking of is when Raboniel is taking Urithiru, and "corrupting" the Sibling. Here's the passage(I actually went back and found it! wow!): "You must move quickly, the Sibling repeated. The Lady of Pains has the Surge of Transformation and dangerous knowledge. She will infuse my entire heart - the pillar - in the proper order, using her Voidlight. In so doing, she would corrupt me and leave me... leave me as one of the Unmade..."(Chapter 42, pg 526 in full size hardcover version) As I see it, this passage could mean any of several things. It could be that Unmade is simply an adjective or title for spren who have been turned from their original Connection. It could be that Re-Shephir's spren are Unmade, but not the Unmade, if you know what I'm saying. Or, it could mean that the Unmade are corrupted Bondsmith spren, like the Sibling. My final theory is that the Unmade are sapient(wise, typ. Radiant) spren of distinguishment. Lemme know what y'all think!
  19. In pondering the Unmade and hunting through these forums, I ran across a really interesting theory about Ba-Ado-Mishram, and how she may have held the Dawnshard, or a Dawnshard, and that’s what allowed her to connect with the singers at a level she hadn’t before. There was also mention that maybe this inspired Dai-Gonarthis to head to Aimia to try to take the Dawnshard there for himself. This got me thinking: Did Dai-Gonarthis succeed in making contact with the Dawnshard? And did it Change him? Maybe into Cusicesh? I’m not the first to make this leap, but I think what we’ve learned about the location and nature of the Dawnshard make this much more plausible now. Edit: topic of inspiration:
  20. Exactly what it says: some ideas and theories on spren I had after reading RoW Cusicesh, the Protector The Sibling is, well, a sibling of the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. Sja-anat calls them a cousin, which could imply that the relationship between the original spren that would be unmade by Odium and godspren is similar to the one between cousin and Radiant spren. It makes sense: Re-shephir seems like a superpowered creationspren, Yelig-nar a superpowered windspren etc. If that is the case, is there a superpowered gloryspren somewhere? Cusicesh seems like an interesting candidate, given that his most pronounces feature is the face (OK, faces), something he shares with the NW and the SF The Oathgate spren OK, this is super tinfoil territory, but while reading RoW I thought about the weird potential link between Oathgate spren and Cryptics. Given their Surge, it would make sense for the Oathgate spren to have features similar to Inkspren and Reachers, right? It works for the former, but I cannot see an Lightspren features in them. On the other hand we are specifically told that Cryptics' hands come in two colors, exactly the same as Oathgate spren. Is it possible that association between sapient spren and Surges works differently for Surge fabrial spren? Thunderclasts We know that there is more to Cultvation's magic than Old Magic and ancient Stoneshaping seems like an excellent candidate. It has some decent foreshadowing, really: Singer gods ('spren, stone, and wind') mentioned in the Eila Stele, Shin reverence for stone, Cultivation being identified with Roshar itself by many people. Ancient Stoneshapers being corrupted by Odium also explains the Thunderclasts, the only Voidbringer being we couldn't match to any magic so far. Given that they are essentially twisted Singer souls, it could imply that this Stoneshaping didn't require a spren bond (unless the spren was also corrupted and merged with the Thunderclast). Could it be a genetic ability, like what the Horneater Sighted have, or maybe something granted by Old Magic style spiritweb modification? Stormstriders We now know that larkins are sapient, something that Tai-na also share to some extent - and based on the RoW ending, there's something more to the chasmfiends than we previously realized. From WoR Rysn interlude we know that Tai-na, besides the usual luckspren, also seem to bond some spen (considered their "soul" by the Reshi people) in their gemhearts. If so, this situation could extend to other greatshells, including larkins / lanceryns. It's more intuition than proof, but it seems likely that such spren would be rather huge and unique, as well as easily available in Highstorms (assuming that the bonding mechanism is shared with the Singers). I think that Stormstrides could be such spren (and maybe provide lanceryn Forms?)
  21. 0. TL;DR Ba-Ado-Mishram is an ancient, natural Bondsmith spren of Odium, and the "spren" of the Eila Stele's "spren, stone, and wind"[27]. 1. Wait, isn't that the Sibling? 2. Okay then, why Ba-Ado-Mishram? 3. But why do you think she wasn't Unmade? 4. And if she was Unmade? 5. Why did she gain new abilities at the time of the False Desolation? 6. There's a few WoBs and quotes that contradict the theory... 7. References
  22. So, doing a re-reading of Oathbringer, I noticed the following passage: There are two important things to note here: first, Re-Shephir attempts to bond with Shallan. Second, it was a Lightweaver that trapped Re-Shephir. And we know that Melishi trapped Ba-Ado-Mishram. The general assumption, based on the WoR epigraph, was that this was something Bondsmiths could do: But perhaps it was not that Bondsmiths could trap the Unmade, but instead, it was something specific to Bondsmiths and Ba-Ado-Mishram specifically. We know that during the False Desolation, BAM was exhibiting Bondsmith-like Connection abilities. And we know how modern fabrial techniques trap spren: So it seems reasonable that trapping the Unmade required Radiants/Proto-Radiants that exhibited qualities that the Unmade would want to bond with; it's not actually just an ability Bondsmiths have, but Melishi could trap BAM because of their shared surges/fascinations/whatever actually drives nahel bond compatibility. Basically the spren is lured into trying to bond with someone, and gets sucked into the gem instead. We know that the means of killing the Heralds forever was inspired by what happened to BAM: It was weird why the singers would make Moash use the dagger to kill Jezrien; the only way that makes sense is if somehow Moash was the only person (that they could coerce/know about) who would be able to do this. Possibly something about Moash being effectively a failed Windrunner that might make him able to somehow bond with Jezrien's Cognitive Shadow. There's WoB that seems to indicate that a Cognitive Shadow could be bonded to a person: Potential Mistborn Spoilers If this is the case, then Mraize trying to get Shallan to use the dagger on Kalak takes an interesting turn. Could Shallan end up bonding Kalak instead? And what about Ishar? Edit: Another interesting quote:
  23. We have seen a lot of the unmade already and some are imprisoned . So we should be able to guess which ones are in Shinovar . I’m betting it’s the same one that was in Kholinar and had the Queens guards acting funny !!!!!
  24. We got so much lore in the latest volume that things are still clicking in my head even a week after reading. One thing that really floors me when I think about it is the new information we got on Chaos' favorite Unmade. So it turns out that her capture screwed up Roshar in general, not just the Singers and their minds. It prompts me to ask a few questions based upon the new discovery. No answers yet, not even theories at this point, but do feel free to speculate with me. So what were the Unmade before their corruption? They were spren obviously, still are in fact. But what was their ecological niche before Odium came along? Whatever they were before, Bo's role must have been particularly important if her severed connection to Roshar both broke the minds of Singers and produced deadeyes for the first time ever. I'm sure they all served important roles but Bo's imprisonment seemed to have much more dire consequences than bottling up Nergaoul has. Sja-Anat speaks of the Sibling as her cousin. The Sibling would have become an Unmade had Rabonial succeeded in her corruption. From these 2 statements we know how Unmade came to be in the state they find themselves in and that the Unmade are least is on par power-wise with thbother Godspren. So the question kinda lies in the Bondsmith numbers restrictions. They can bond only 3, any more would be seen as seditious. Does that mean what I think it means? Is a Bondsmith capable of forming a bond with an Unmade in a way that gives powers like a KR? I have an opinion on this topic at least. I believe that Unmade existed as Unmade before Ishar formed the Knights Radiant and he left them outside of the Bondsmith order. At the time of the organization's formation there were only three uncorrupted Godspren left (SF, NW, SIB) and those were the only ones allowed to grant the same powers he had. But bonds to Unmade are still possible and still grant powers in a limited sort of way. I think Dalinar's scarred body still having full range of motion when it's not supposed to makes more sense in that context. Now if the marble drops and Ms Mishram is freed would that restore all the Deadeyes at once? Would it fix Roshar's afterlife issues or would she need to be remade first? Would she immediately begin handing out forms of power like candy on Halloween? Could anyone convince her to switch sides like Sja-Anat and if so would we be able to add a 4th Bondsmith? Have at it boys and girls.
  25. Another book has come and gone, so let's check in on what we know! The Diagram, and Ishar, both state that Shinovar is playing host to one or more of the Unmade now. We can thus treat Ishar's words with a small degree of trust on this specific subject, since another source is willing to corroborate it. WIth that said, we can deduce that at least three of them are likely there at this time. I'm going to go through all nine, sorted by least likely to most likely to be there. Least Likely * Ba-Ado-Mishram - So far as we know, she's still trapped inside her gemstone. It's a safe bet she's not active in Shinovar. * Nergaoul - Similarly, Nergaoul is enjoying a spa treatment in the ocean. It's a safe bet he's nowhere near Shinovar. * Sja-anat - We can trace Sja-anat's movements from Kholinar (her interlude) to Emul (Odium's orders). As she talked to Taravangian directly in an interlude late in the book, we can safely say she also is not anywhere in Shinovar. This is likely to change for the fifth book, but by no means a certainty. * Moelach - Moelach settled in the Horneater Peaks during Oathbringer, according to Taravangian's interlude. So far as we know, nothing has changed here, and while it's possible that he moved, I think it unlikely that this Unmade was suddenly ordered away from guarding Cultivation's Perpendicularity. Inconclusive * Re-Shephir - Re-Shephir somehow found time to inform Raboniel about the Sibling (how is a subject for another day), which would suggest she travelled east toward Kholinar in order to do so, as that is where we were first introduced to Raboniel, who had this knowledge of the Sibling during that meeting in Chapter 14. As Raboniel is confirmed to have Transformation, she would have had help to get to Kholinar, or simply awakened in a body in Kholinar in the first place. Either way, she somehow encountered Re-Shephir before Chapter 14, which means the Midnight Mother did not travel west to Shinovar. We can't nail down a timeline of Re-Shephir's movements, however, and thus I put her as inconclusive as to where she is. * Chemoarish - It's unclear if the Dustmother is trapped in a gemstone. Given Hessi's Mythica, lore has generated about her sufficient enough to suggest activity in modern Roshar. However, it's also possible that she has been dormant like Sja-anat apparently was for the past few thousand years. Either way, it's hard to confirm her activity level and thus I put her at inconclusive. Most Likely * Ashertmarn - This Unmade fled the Kholinar region, heading to unknown whereabouts. We saw first hand in Oathbringer how severe his influence can be on humans, so his activity is not in question. He has had plenty of time to cross the continent to get to Shinovar. * Yelig-nar - Like Ashertmarn, Yelig-nar is active in the present-day world and we have seen him on screen. It therefore is not unreasonable to assume that this presumed-sapient Unmade is one of those that has begun influencing Shinovar within the course of the past year. Secondly, he is presumed sapient, and if the Shinovar really are worshipping the Unmade, it would likely require a sapient Unmade to fully facilitate this relationship. * Dai-Gonarthis - With the scouring of Aimia possibly being attributed to Dai-Gonarthis's activity, per Mythica, we can at least state that this Unmade has shown some activity in the world within the past few centuries. I say this as a definitive because we the readers have evidence supporting this Unmade's existence (the WoK Death Rattle we saw in the epigraphs). As they are presumed capable of causing an entire country to be scoured of life -- Akinah even has a nickname of "The Void's Playground", per Kaza's interlude -- it seems appropriate that this Unmade would be one of those involved in causing Shinovar to become shut down. They have also not been seen on screen, so of all the presumed active Unmade, Dai-Gonarthis has had the most time to go to Shinovar and begin influencing it. I suspect Dai-Gonarthis is also sapient, due to the orchestration of events of Aimia, so I use my point about needing a sapient Unmade to facilitate a worship relationship here as well.