Search the Community

Showing results for tags 'unmade'.

More search options

  • Search By Tags

    Type tags separated by commas.
  • Search By Author

Content Type


  • Brandon and Book News
  • Events, Signings, & Giveaways
  • Columns and Features
  • Site News
  • Shardcast


  • 17th Shard
    • Introduce Yourself!
    • 17th Shard Discussion
    • The Coppermind Wiki
    • Arcanum Discussion
  • Brandon Sanderson
    • General Brandon Discussion
    • Events and Signings
    • Sanderson Fan Works
    • Arcanum, the Brandon Sanderson Archive
  • Rhythm of War and Dawnshard Spoiler Area
    • RoW General Thoughts
    • RoW Character Discussion
    • RoW Lore, Magic, and Cosmere Discussion
    • Dawnshard Discussion
  • The Cosmere
    • Cosmere Q&A
    • Cosmere Discussion
    • Stormlight Archive
    • Mistborn
    • Elantris and Emperor's Soul
    • Warbreaker
    • White Sand
    • Cosmere Short Stories
    • Unpublished Works
  • Non-cosmere Works
    • The Reckoners
    • The Rithmatist
    • Skyward
    • Alcatraz
    • Dark One
    • Other Stories
    • The Wheel of Time
  • Related Works
    • Writing Excuses
    • Reading Excuses
    • TWG Archive
  • Community
    • General Discussion
    • Entertainment Discussion
    • Science, Tech, and Math Discussion
    • Creator's Corner
    • Role-Playing
    • Social Groups, Clans, and Guilds


  • Chaos' Blog
  • Leinton's Blog
  • 17th Shard Blog
  • KChan's Blog
  • Puck's Blag
  • Brandon's Blog
  • The Name of your Blog
  • Darth Squirrely's Blog
  • Tales of a Firebug
  • borborygmus' Blog
  • Zeadman's Blog
  • zas678's Blog
  • The Basement
  • Addy's Avocations
  • Zarepath's Blog
  • First time reading The Well Of Ascension
  • Seshperankh's Blog
  • "I Have Opinions About Books"
  • Test
  • Which actors would you like to see playing the characters of Mistborn?
  • Drifted Mists
  • Jaron's Realm
  • Roshar Speculative Theories
  • ChrisHamatake's Blog
  • Paradox Flint's Blog
  • Deoradhan's Blog
  • Storm Blessed's Blog
  • Elwynn's Blog
  • firstRainbowRose's Blog
  • Rotabush ShardBlog
  • Hoid's Compendium
  • InterContinental Adventures
  • Claincy Creates
  • WoR Thoughts and Questions
  • Blogfalcon
  • David Coppercloud's Blog
  • yurisses' notes and theories
  • Lark Adventures
  • LUNA's Poetry
  • Inspiration Board
  • Trying to be Useful for a Change
  • The Way of Toasters
  • Cosmere Nerd Things
  • Dapper's Music Blog
  • DA blog
  • Wyn's Adventures in Geekiness
  • Words With Ene
  • Dapper's Blog
  • Things to talk about, stuff to do
  • Zelly's Healthy-Accountability Blog
  • Even These Acronyms
  • Rhythm of War Liveblog
  • Star's Art Blog


  • Community Calendar

Found 105 results

  1. I can’t get this idea out of my head, and I haven’t been able to find folks talking about it, so I thought I’d put it to the hive mind. If this has been debunked already or is being discussed elsewhere please let me know. Also, strap in, because this gets long and rambling. Possibly mad. Theory: I think the Unmade are the Dawncities (Dawnspren) In the same way the Sibling is Urithiru. I think that Odium unmade the Dawncity spren, most likely with their consent, by offering them more freedom in the physical realm, but at a cost he played down. And the Singers either helped Odium accomplish this, or choose to attune his Rhythms anyway after seeing it happen, which I believe most other Spren would see as horrifying and unforgivable. So reasons I think this: Brandon’s world building, and foreshadowing are masterful. And anytime we get big exposition dumps and insight into the structure of a shardworld or the Cosmere (pretty much all of Oathbringer and RoW) he’s usually setting up mechanics for later stories and reveals. So we learn in RoW: The Shards are Sound. They’re vibrational energy that can be perceived as a Tone as well as light (Iridescent Tones anyone?) People can blend those tones to create new harmonious or dissonant tones/light, and Shards can blend their tones/light to shape the stone of Roshar and with Intent create a massive sapient spren. Those spren can be Unmade. Exactly like we see Raboniel doing to the sibling, but Odium would be doing this at a much greater scale, and more quickly. Add to that to all the comparisons between Urithiru and Kholinar’s strata in Oathbringer. So here’s some wild speculation: Before the Shattering, Adonalsium creates the Rosharan system, and the planet of Roshar. He is God, and as God created an ineffable and infinite universe. But maybe, the part of Adonalsium that is sentient and personal, wanted to create an Eden. A place of perfect harmony and symbiosis where the perfect tones of Adonalsium ring through the cosmere. Regardless, he makes the system and the planet, and it is the Garden of Eden, for crabs. As part of this elegant and divine ecological system Adonalsium uses his pure tones to shape the Dawncities, which is why they look like cymatic patterns, and in that shaping gives the Dawncities sentience and effectively creates the first spren. Or maybe creates it all simultaneously, because he’s God. So crab folks have a place to live, the continent itself talks to them and cares for them (there has to be a spren of Roshar, the closest real world analog I can find is Roshii, Japanese for old teacher. And often associated with a Turtle. Shelled creature. That cannot be a coincidence when the other two planets are called Ashyn and Braize- the burnt and the burning, respectively.) Tangent aside, these folk are happy as clams. They’re singing to their stones, and the stones are singing back. All is peaceful, and harmonious and in perfect symbiotic stasis. And probably so, so, boring. As Raboniel tells us, and shows us with her actions, the Singers are more inclined to work within natural systems, than push the boundaries of the systems. Enter Hoid, and/or the 16 original vessels, I think as the Cosmere developed, life found ways to travel and eventually stumbled upon this idyllic crab world and Hoid got to dance with a Dawnsinger. (Although this could definitely have happened post shattering) I think that their visits to Roshar may have seeded the jealousy and ambition that led to the shattering So Hoid and the vessels leave, shatter Adonalsium, scoop up some god bits and ascend to limited divinity, hoping to go make they’re own little paradises. Then they realize, oh damn, we did not understand what we were getting into. They agree to go their separate ways, and play with their own toys in their own rooms. Hoid gets no toys. Honor and Cultivation make their way back to Roshar, because it calls to their respective Intents, and set up shop. But it’s chugging right along because it was designed by God to be a perpetual investiture machine, and doesn’t really require him to be “present”. Honor and Cultivation start experimenting and copying what Adonalsium did with the original spren(Dawncities), and from this we get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the True Spren. Enter Odium. He’s been wandering around the Cosmere, splintering shards, like one does. Sees Honor and Cultivation and says: I am going to break their toys, and then break them. He enters the system, sets up shop on Ashyn, and either creates human life there, or he appropriates humans that settled there pre or post shattering. Odium pushes these humans’ passions to such an extent that they break their planet. Honor and Cultivation allow refugees to come to Roshar, and set up a nice ecological reserve for them, they just need to follow some rules. The Serpent is in the Garden. I think allowing the humans onto Roshar, gave Odium the foothold he needed to work around Honor and Cultivation. Probably through some Connection mumbo-jumbo. Because it definitely allowed Odium to become a pure Tone of Roshar, which I don’t think he was entirely just being in the Rosharan system. Odium becoming a pure tone that the Singers could hear would definitely influence their feelings about him and would allow him to spread his promises and suggestions, like the proverbial serpent from Genesis. And convincing 9 of the most powerful spren on the planet; the Dawncities themselves, to embrace their passions and take his light/tone, would be very thematically consistent with Odiums Intent. (Also don’t think the similarities between the Unmade and the Nazghul are coincidence. 9 unmade, 9 nine rings of temptation, 9 kings, come on.) So Odium corrupts and unmakes the Unmade, and probably creates the Fused at the same time with similar promises. Then he pushes those humans still loyal to him to start a war. Honor, Cultivation, and most of the spren, see this as a horrific betrayal. They swear off the Singers and convince those humans disillusioned with Odium to fight against him for the good of the planet. Honor copies Odiums idea with the Unmade but tweaks it a bit to create the Heralds. Ishar uses his knowledge of Connections to create the Oathpact. Which binds Odium to Braize, and probably stops him from being able to unmake any more spren, or make more Fused. But the Heralds constantly bending/breaking their oaths while intrinsically bonded to the god of Oaths create the opening needed to splinter Honor. Similar to what Odium says to Dalinar when they’re hashing out the details for the contest of champions. Whew, ok. Done now. Timeline may be a bit wonky, but I think it fits.
  2. So I am listening to the newest Shardcast, and as usual I came up with a new theory. The latest Shardcast is discussing Ba-Ado-Mishram, and as they were spitballing some things I have come up with a hot take on the origins of this most mysterious Unmade. So there is some mention in Oathbringer/WoR epigraphs (I believe the Hessi's Mythica sequence) that Ba-Ado-Mishram was "A Highprincess of the enemy forces" and this seems to imply that she was some kind of mortal. Of course, this is in-book research so there can be all kinds of Recreance shenanigans. Later, in RoW, Kalak references a character called Mishram, with a certain amount of familiarity. Also, there is one point in RoW part 2 (maybe, don't have the book on me right now but it's the scene where the Fused and Venli are invading Urithiru) where Rabonial swears by "Ado," which as one Shardcaster pointed out is the first part of the Alethi glyph for light- and also similar to Adonalsium. In addition, and I'm not sure this is relevant, Chaos keeps pointing out that there are not one, but two hyphens in Ba-Ado-Mishram's name, which is unique among the Unmade. Ba-Ado-Mishram has some kind of Connection to the Parsh, Spren, and Roshar as a whole, which is unusual since Adhesion (the Surge of Connection) is called "Honor's purest Surge." My theory: Ado, the entity that Rabonial refers to, is the Spren of Lights (as in the physical representation of Investiture on Roshar), a being on a level with the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Mishram, the person that Kalak refers to, was once a mortal Singer who eventually bonded (in a Bondsmith-like process) with Ado, and then was corrupted/Unmade somehow by Odium, leading to the entity that modern Rosharans refer to as Ba-Ado-Mishram. The "Ba" in this case would mean something along the lines of "both" or "together." Let me know what ya'll think! I'm pretty new to theory crafting and I'd love to hear any thoughts you guys have on my style.
  3. Sorry for another thread about the Unmade, especially theory, because I know we have WAAAAAY too many of those lying around the Shard. However, a passage in RoW got me thinking about them again, when I had solemnly vowed(okay, I hadn't) to stop with the outlandish Unmade theories. The passage I'm thinking of is when Raboniel is taking Urithiru, and "corrupting" the Sibling. Here's the passage(I actually went back and found it! wow!): "You must move quickly, the Sibling repeated. The Lady of Pains has the Surge of Transformation and dangerous knowledge. She will infuse my entire heart - the pillar - in the proper order, using her Voidlight. In so doing, she would corrupt me and leave me... leave me as one of the Unmade..."(Chapter 42, pg 526 in full size hardcover version) As I see it, this passage could mean any of several things. It could be that Unmade is simply an adjective or title for spren who have been turned from their original Connection. It could be that Re-Shephir's spren are Unmade, but not the Unmade, if you know what I'm saying. Or, it could mean that the Unmade are corrupted Bondsmith spren, like the Sibling. My final theory is that the Unmade are sapient(wise, typ. Radiant) spren of distinguishment. Lemme know what y'all think!
  4. In pondering the Unmade and hunting through these forums, I ran across a really interesting theory about Ba-Ado-Mishram, and how she may have held the Dawnshard, or a Dawnshard, and that’s what allowed her to connect with the singers at a level she hadn’t before. There was also mention that maybe this inspired Dai-Gonarthis to head to Aimia to try to take the Dawnshard there for himself. This got me thinking: Did Dai-Gonarthis succeed in making contact with the Dawnshard? And did it Change him? Maybe into Cusicesh? I’m not the first to make this leap, but I think what we’ve learned about the location and nature of the Dawnshard make this much more plausible now. Edit: topic of inspiration:
  5. Exactly what it says: some ideas and theories on spren I had after reading RoW Cusicesh, the Protector The Sibling is, well, a sibling of the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. Sja-anat calls them a cousin, which could imply that the relationship between the original spren that would be unmade by Odium and godspren is similar to the one between cousin and Radiant spren. It makes sense: Re-shephir seems like a superpowered creationspren, Yelig-nar a superpowered windspren etc. If that is the case, is there a superpowered gloryspren somewhere? Cusicesh seems like an interesting candidate, given that his most pronounces feature is the face (OK, faces), something he shares with the NW and the SF The Oathgate spren OK, this is super tinfoil territory, but while reading RoW I thought about the weird potential link between Oathgate spren and Cryptics. Given their Surge, it would make sense for the Oathgate spren to have features similar to Inkspren and Reachers, right? It works for the former, but I cannot see an Lightspren features in them. On the other hand we are specifically told that Cryptics' hands come in two colors, exactly the same as Oathgate spren. Is it possible that association between sapient spren and Surges works differently for Surge fabrial spren? Thunderclasts We know that there is more to Cultvation's magic than Old Magic and ancient Stoneshaping seems like an excellent candidate. It has some decent foreshadowing, really: Singer gods ('spren, stone, and wind') mentioned in the Eila Stele, Shin reverence for stone, Cultivation being identified with Roshar itself by many people. Ancient Stoneshapers being corrupted by Odium also explains the Thunderclasts, the only Voidbringer being we couldn't match to any magic so far. Given that they are essentially twisted Singer souls, it could imply that this Stoneshaping didn't require a spren bond (unless the spren was also corrupted and merged with the Thunderclast). Could it be a genetic ability, like what the Horneater Sighted have, or maybe something granted by Old Magic style spiritweb modification? Stormstriders We now know that larkins are sapient, something that Tai-na also share to some extent - and based on the RoW ending, there's something more to the chasmfiends than we previously realized. From WoR Rysn interlude we know that Tai-na, besides the usual luckspren, also seem to bond some spen (considered their "soul" by the Reshi people) in their gemhearts. If so, this situation could extend to other greatshells, including larkins / lanceryns. It's more intuition than proof, but it seems likely that such spren would be rather huge and unique, as well as easily available in Highstorms (assuming that the bonding mechanism is shared with the Singers). I think that Stormstrides could be such spren (and maybe provide lanceryn Forms?)
  6. 0. TL;DR Ba-Ado-Mishram is an ancient, natural Bondsmith spren of Odium, and the "spren" of the Eila Stele's "spren, stone, and wind"[27]. 1. Wait, isn't that the Sibling? 2. Okay then, why Ba-Ado-Mishram? 3. But why do you think she wasn't Unmade? 4. And if she was Unmade? 5. Why did she gain new abilities at the time of the False Desolation? 6. There's a few WoBs and quotes that contradict the theory... 7. References
  7. So, doing a re-reading of Oathbringer, I noticed the following passage: There are two important things to note here: first, Re-Shephir attempts to bond with Shallan. Second, it was a Lightweaver that trapped Re-Shephir. And we know that Melishi trapped Ba-Ado-Mishram. The general assumption, based on the WoR epigraph, was that this was something Bondsmiths could do: But perhaps it was not that Bondsmiths could trap the Unmade, but instead, it was something specific to Bondsmiths and Ba-Ado-Mishram specifically. We know that during the False Desolation, BAM was exhibiting Bondsmith-like Connection abilities. And we know how modern fabrial techniques trap spren: So it seems reasonable that trapping the Unmade required Radiants/Proto-Radiants that exhibited qualities that the Unmade would want to bond with; it's not actually just an ability Bondsmiths have, but Melishi could trap BAM because of their shared surges/fascinations/whatever actually drives nahel bond compatibility. Basically the spren is lured into trying to bond with someone, and gets sucked into the gem instead. We know that the means of killing the Heralds forever was inspired by what happened to BAM: It was weird why the singers would make Moash use the dagger to kill Jezrien; the only way that makes sense is if somehow Moash was the only person (that they could coerce/know about) who would be able to do this. Possibly something about Moash being effectively a failed Windrunner that might make him able to somehow bond with Jezrien's Cognitive Shadow. There's WoB that seems to indicate that a Cognitive Shadow could be bonded to a person: Potential Mistborn Spoilers If this is the case, then Mraize trying to get Shallan to use the dagger on Kalak takes an interesting turn. Could Shallan end up bonding Kalak instead? And what about Ishar? Edit: Another interesting quote:
  8. We have seen a lot of the unmade already and some are imprisoned . So we should be able to guess which ones are in Shinovar . I’m betting it’s the same one that was in Kholinar and had the Queens guards acting funny !!!!!
  9. We got so much lore in the latest volume that things are still clicking in my head even a week after reading. One thing that really floors me when I think about it is the new information we got on Chaos' favorite Unmade. So it turns out that her capture screwed up Roshar in general, not just the Singers and their minds. It prompts me to ask a few questions based upon the new discovery. No answers yet, not even theories at this point, but do feel free to speculate with me. So what were the Unmade before their corruption? They were spren obviously, still are in fact. But what was their ecological niche before Odium came along? Whatever they were before, Bo's role must have been particularly important if her severed connection to Roshar both broke the minds of Singers and produced deadeyes for the first time ever. I'm sure they all served important roles but Bo's imprisonment seemed to have much more dire consequences than bottling up Nergaoul has. Sja-Anat speaks of the Sibling as her cousin. The Sibling would have become an Unmade had Rabonial succeeded in her corruption. From these 2 statements we know how Unmade came to be in the state they find themselves in and that the Unmade are least is on par power-wise with thbother Godspren. So the question kinda lies in the Bondsmith numbers restrictions. They can bond only 3, any more would be seen as seditious. Does that mean what I think it means? Is a Bondsmith capable of forming a bond with an Unmade in a way that gives powers like a KR? I have an opinion on this topic at least. I believe that Unmade existed as Unmade before Ishar formed the Knights Radiant and he left them outside of the Bondsmith order. At the time of the organization's formation there were only three uncorrupted Godspren left (SF, NW, SIB) and those were the only ones allowed to grant the same powers he had. But bonds to Unmade are still possible and still grant powers in a limited sort of way. I think Dalinar's scarred body still having full range of motion when it's not supposed to makes more sense in that context. Now if the marble drops and Ms Mishram is freed would that restore all the Deadeyes at once? Would it fix Roshar's afterlife issues or would she need to be remade first? Would she immediately begin handing out forms of power like candy on Halloween? Could anyone convince her to switch sides like Sja-Anat and if so would we be able to add a 4th Bondsmith? Have at it boys and girls.
  10. Another book has come and gone, so let's check in on what we know! The Diagram, and Ishar, both state that Shinovar is playing host to one or more of the Unmade now. We can thus treat Ishar's words with a small degree of trust on this specific subject, since another source is willing to corroborate it. WIth that said, we can deduce that at least three of them are likely there at this time. I'm going to go through all nine, sorted by least likely to most likely to be there. Least Likely * Ba-Ado-Mishram - So far as we know, she's still trapped inside her gemstone. It's a safe bet she's not active in Shinovar. * Nergaoul - Similarly, Nergaoul is enjoying a spa treatment in the ocean. It's a safe bet he's nowhere near Shinovar. * Sja-anat - We can trace Sja-anat's movements from Kholinar (her interlude) to Emul (Odium's orders). As she talked to Taravangian directly in an interlude late in the book, we can safely say she also is not anywhere in Shinovar. This is likely to change for the fifth book, but by no means a certainty. * Moelach - Moelach settled in the Horneater Peaks during Oathbringer, according to Taravangian's interlude. So far as we know, nothing has changed here, and while it's possible that he moved, I think it unlikely that this Unmade was suddenly ordered away from guarding Cultivation's Perpendicularity. Inconclusive * Re-Shephir - Re-Shephir somehow found time to inform Raboniel about the Sibling (how is a subject for another day), which would suggest she travelled east toward Kholinar in order to do so, as that is where we were first introduced to Raboniel, who had this knowledge of the Sibling during that meeting in Chapter 14. As Raboniel is confirmed to have Transformation, she would have had help to get to Kholinar, or simply awakened in a body in Kholinar in the first place. Either way, she somehow encountered Re-Shephir before Chapter 14, which means the Midnight Mother did not travel west to Shinovar. We can't nail down a timeline of Re-Shephir's movements, however, and thus I put her as inconclusive as to where she is. * Chemoarish - It's unclear if the Dustmother is trapped in a gemstone. Given Hessi's Mythica, lore has generated about her sufficient enough to suggest activity in modern Roshar. However, it's also possible that she has been dormant like Sja-anat apparently was for the past few thousand years. Either way, it's hard to confirm her activity level and thus I put her at inconclusive. Most Likely * Ashertmarn - This Unmade fled the Kholinar region, heading to unknown whereabouts. We saw first hand in Oathbringer how severe his influence can be on humans, so his activity is not in question. He has had plenty of time to cross the continent to get to Shinovar. * Yelig-nar - Like Ashertmarn, Yelig-nar is active in the present-day world and we have seen him on screen. It therefore is not unreasonable to assume that this presumed-sapient Unmade is one of those that has begun influencing Shinovar within the course of the past year. Secondly, he is presumed sapient, and if the Shinovar really are worshipping the Unmade, it would likely require a sapient Unmade to fully facilitate this relationship. * Dai-Gonarthis - With the scouring of Aimia possibly being attributed to Dai-Gonarthis's activity, per Mythica, we can at least state that this Unmade has shown some activity in the world within the past few centuries. I say this as a definitive because we the readers have evidence supporting this Unmade's existence (the WoK Death Rattle we saw in the epigraphs). As they are presumed capable of causing an entire country to be scoured of life -- Akinah even has a nickname of "The Void's Playground", per Kaza's interlude -- it seems appropriate that this Unmade would be one of those involved in causing Shinovar to become shut down. They have also not been seen on screen, so of all the presumed active Unmade, Dai-Gonarthis has had the most time to go to Shinovar and begin influencing it. I suspect Dai-Gonarthis is also sapient, due to the orchestration of events of Aimia, so I use my point about needing a sapient Unmade to facilitate a worship relationship here as well.
  11. I apologize if this has been posted before, but I just had an interesting thought. There is reference to torture, but obviously and hinted and...This entire time, I’ve thought that, when sent to Braize, the Heralds were tortured by the fused. However, after doing some re-reading I have developed a theory that the Heralds were tortured by various members of the unmade. Is there any reference to the Fused being the ones who actually tortured the Heralds? I know there are some quotes by Ahu that directly call out several Unmade...thoughts?
  12. theory

    So Yelig-nar has always intrigued me as an unmade, as he allows whoever bonds to him access to all the ten surges, which can create a very powerful warrior out of a man, but when Amaram bonded to him, he used very few of the surges he had access to and used them clumsily, clearly inexperienced. So while I still thought Yelig-nar was a powerful unmade, it would be very difficult to find a host that could actually use him to his full potential, so i thought who would be a worthy host of Yelig-nar, and I remembered that Szeth trained in all ten surges because of the honorblades. Now I don't think Szeth is going to become Yelig-nar, but Szeth cannot be the only one who trained with all the honorblades, so there must be another Shin who has trained in all ten surges, making them the perfect host to bond with Yelig-nar. What do you think of this theory?
  13. The Theory: The Unmade were all once Singer god-spren similar to the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather I do not know if this theory has already been proposed, but I think there is plenty of evidence to back this up: Evidence #1: The Unmade Sja-anet says that they were “made then unmade” I hate to state the obvious but we can at least confirm that the unmade were something else before they sided with Odium. I always wondered what “made” them in the first place since Odium was probably the one who unmade them. We know from Syl that the origins of the god-spren were created partly due in part to the human personification of forces and partly due to the investiture of Honor/Cultivaiton. So, just like how the current generation of god-spren were “made”, the Unmade might have been “made” in the Cognitive realm by collective personification of mortal minds. Evidence #2: The Unmade are said to predate humanity on Roshar. This is where I step into the nebulous realm of speculation, but I am envisioning a singer pantheon of gods. For example, Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher was a type of sea god-spren like Poseidon, while Ashertmarn the Heart of Revel was some type of jubilee god-spren like Dionysus. Nergoel the Thrill was a god of competition or war like Nike or Athena. The list goes on. Then, once Odium came to Roshar, he twisted the god-spren to his own purposes in the same manner that he perverts alot of the manifestations of Investiture. We know that the current generation of Bondsmith god-spren were created by humans because the Sibling/Urithiru can’t predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant. It would make sense that for the thousands of years of sentient life on Roshar, there would be more than three god-spren created. It would also make sense that the singers would create their own god-spren. Evidence #3: In the Oathbringer prologue with Eshoni and Gavilar, Eshoni says she doesn't want the gods of the singers to return Who are the singer gods that Eshoni is refering to? She can’t be referring to the Fused because Venli doesn’t call the Fused their gods, she calls them their ancestors. Eshoni could be referring to Cultivation, Honor, and Odium who have been worshiped by singers in the past. But it would be odd to fear the return of the god(S)(plural) because we know Honor is dead, Cultivation never left, and Odium is one god. ** To play devil’s advocate with my own theory, this wouldn’t explain why there are nine Unmade and nine orders of Passions. That is a weird coincidence. But it doesn’t seem like the Passions and the Unmade are linked, just like how the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher don’t directly correlate with an order of the knights radiant. Maybe Odium just likes the number nine.
  14. theory

    To put it shortly: this is yet another attempt at matching the Unmade with corresponding KR Orders based on the cousin spren of these Orders (an idea very similar to the one originally presented in this thread). I based my analysis on two assumptions, which I believe lead to some interesting results: The powers that the Unmade grant when bonding with humans/Singers might match the original KR Order, but it's not 100% reliable, as Odium might have tweaked these powers for his own purpose We should rather look at the characteristics of cousin spren (how they behave, what are they attracted to, how they look and sound) and search for similar patterns amongst the Unmade Here is what I was able to find. Please note that the list will become more and more speculative as we go, and (because we know only a few cousin spren) I tried to search for similarities between lesser spren as well: Re-Shephir – Lightweavers, obviously. Shallan states that explicitly and there are clear similarities between how Re-Shehir and the creationspren act Yelig-Nar – Windrunners, once again quite obvious. The windspren are rather mischievous and often play pranks on people (e.g. sticking shoes to stone) and they can mimic people's voices. Once you look past things like growing crystals from the host's body and granting all ten Surges, you can see that Yelig-Nar is essentially an extremely malicious and powerful version of a windspren – for example, he broke into Nohadon's chancery and killed all the scribes (probably burning books as well) and he is apparently “accompanied by the wails of those he consumed” (vocal mimicry) As for the Edgedancers, it seems that their cousin spren are the lifespren. Is there an Unmade that would match them? The only candidate I can think of is Chemoarish. She is actually often conflated with the Nightwatcher (a connection with Cultivation and cultivationspren) and is called Dustmother – and the lifespren look like motes of glowing green dust or swarms of tiny, translucent insects. This is very speculative, obviously, but I think that (instead of typical Dustbringer associations) Chemoarish might represent something like a swarm of locusts. Devouring plants (which attract the lifespren) and causing famine (not all lands have access to Soulcasters, after all) seems like a fitting ability for an Edgedancer Unmade (and the biblical plague connotations fit the overall mythology of Roshar as well) We know only one more type if cousin spren (glorypspren) and it's useless because it is the one for Bondsmiths. However, the official Herald portraits show them with the cousin spren and we now have a portrait for Taln. He is surrounded by yellow-orange spren, which are unfortunately pictured as rather formless. Could these be flamespren or painspren? The latter would really work well thematically for Taln and Stonewards in general. If that is the case, the best fitting Unmade would probably be Nergaoul I'm really waiting for the three remaining Herald portraits from RoW, but in the meantime I can think of some lesser spren that could potentially be cousin spren and match some of the Unmade: Moelach, for example, seems to work in a way that reminds me of the deathspren. Both are attracted to death, obviously, and the voices of the deathspren are “whispers, scratchy sounds like paper being torn” which shows some similarity to the quote from Jezrien: “Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.”. If deathspren are indeed cousin spren, my best guess for the Order would be the Dustbringers. It would provide a nice contrast to the Edgedancers and their lifespren, plus deathspren work well linguistically with the whole Dustbringer/Ashspren terminology (“Ashes to ashes, dust to dust”). Not to mention that the Dustbringers might be, on average, the deadliest Order of the KR I've seen theories on the forum suggesting that the rainspren might be the cousin spren for Skybreakers (based on the contrast with Windrunners). They are associated with the Weeping and w know from Puuli's interlude that the fishermen work especially hard during that time. That might be scraping the bottom of the barrel, but if the line “Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!” offers some hidden clue, that might be it The Inkspren value logic greatly, and I would assume that the cousin spren of Elsecallers might be related to that (logicspren maybe?). Ba-Ado-Mishram was “said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations” and I believe she would fit here quite well Sja-anat seems to have so many clues linking her to Truthwatchers that I would be surprised if she matched any other Order, which leaves us with Ashertmarn corresponding to the Order of Willshapers
  15. Idea: On my recent re-read of Oathbringer it came to me that perhaps unmade come in 3 different groups. First, the facts: Most of the information we have on unmade in general seem to come from the in-world book, Hessi's Mythica. Of course it can be disputed whether Hessi was right about her claims, but given how accurately (surprisingly so) her information lines up with what we have directly seen about the unmade (The thrill and Moelach mostly), I feel we can mostly trust her, and I will assume she is mostly correct from now on. Regardless of this, I believe we have WoB that there are indeed 9 unmade, and Hessi combined with a choice deathrattle epigraph in tWoK leads us to list these as the 9 unmade: Ashertmarn/the Heart of the Revel Nergaoul/the Thrill Yelig-nar/the Blightwind Sja-anat/the Taker of Secrets Re-Shephir/the Midnight Mother Moelach Ba-Ado-Mishram (B-A-M) Dai-Gonarthis/the Black Fisher Chemoarish/the Dustmother Now of these, the first 5 we've directly seen (as of Oathbringer), Moelach we've indirectly seen, B-A-M we've heard a lot about, Dai-Gonarthis we've heard a tiny bit amount, and the Dustmother we've heard nothing about (as far as I'm aware). I will say this here, that clearly this means anything I say about Dai-Gonarthis and the Dustmother is going to be pure speculation, and are realistically just wildcards in any theory about the unmade. However, we know one other important piece of information about the unmade as a whole, and that is that 3 of the unmade are basically mindless forces: (from Hessi's Mythica as part of the epigraphs of Oathbringer.) So apparently, these three unmade -- Ashertmarn, Nergaoul, and Moelach -- form a category of "mindless" unmade. Now, to me, it felt weird that there would just be three unmade that were singled out as mindless and the rest more sentient. Moreover, the fact that it was exactly three of them (3 goes in into 9 perfectly), made me theorize my main point: that there are 3 different categories of 3 unmade each. The Theory: The corrupters So the question is: What are the 2 other categories of unmade? My own thoughts about this come from Yelig-nar. Yelig-nar has always seemed to me like a corrupter of people. You start with only a moderately evil guy like Amaram or Aesudan (or possibly one of Nohadon's own men of learning?), you give them a gemstone, and you get a super powerful, super evil monstrosity. The idea of using power as an incentive to corrupt people also seems fitting. Because of this, I think Yelig-nar should be grouped with Sja-anat in the category of "corrupting" unmade. Sja-anat is the corrupter of spren, and Yelig-nar is a corrupter of people. As to the third unmade in this category, I'm somewhat split. I have 2 candidates: Re-Shephir and Dai-gonarthis. Dai-gonarthis, as pointed out is a wildcard, and is mostly a hunch that I can't really explain well, but Re-Shephir has some evidence. Namely, we see in Oathbringer, that the midnight essences that the midnight mother creates seem to be corrupted forms of other things. e.g., looking like people Re-Shephir has seen, but with features that are off, or the distorted forms of beasts. The main reason I dislike Re-Shephir in this category, in fact, is that I just prefer her in the next one. (Oathbringer, p305,306, describing midnight essences) The brain bugs The last category is mostly centered around the role (as we know it) of B-A-M. The unmade, being splinters of Odium and possibly his analogue of the heralds, seem to me like they should include the role of the leaders and generals of his war-effort/people -- the brain bugs, if you will, of the voidbringers (I don't know why I like calling them that so much, I haven't even read the starship troopers books, only seen the movie). This is of course most clearly seen in B-A-M herself, who Hessi claimed was a commander during some of the Desolations and who was able to power the voidbringers in the false desolation. The 2 other unmade I would like to put in this category are Re-Shephir and the Dustmother (with Dai-gonarthis swapped in for Re-Shephir of course if you prefer her in the previous category). The reason I put Re-Shephir here, is because she too acts like a general of sorts. Not of humans or parshendi, but of her own midnight essences. One could imagine that all we've seen is a small use of her power (perhaps due to fear, surprise, or a lack of command/connection to Odium), and that in the full swing of a desolation, the midnight mother commands a whole army of essences, and thus surely deserves a spot as a commander of Odium. The Dustmother then seems like a likely candidate for this category as well. Although we know next to nothing about her, the inclusion of the word mother in her name, just as in Re-Shephir's, makes me think she also spawns something, and so might have a similar role. The sub-theory: finer divisions Going further with less evidence, I think we may be able to subdivide these categories even more. Namely, I propose that each of the 3 unmade in a category correspond to the 3 realms. Lets start with the mindless unmade as they are the most familiar. The easiest one here is Moelach, who as far as we know, grants brief future sight as people are dying as seen in the form of deathrattles. I believe we know by WoB (although I have no reference to it) that seeing the future is associated with the spiritual realm, so I feel Moelach should be a spiritual unmade. Next is Ashertmarn. Ashertmarn seemingly makes people want to indulge in the physical pleasures, so I put him as a physical unmade. Lastly, we have Nergaoul. Nergaoul is what gives the thrill, which I feel can only be described as a state of mind, where the afflicted is in a state of bloodlust, and is otherwise, well, not thinking at all. Like they've been robbed of thought. Thus, we put him as a cognitive unmade. It also appears, although perhaps it is a coincidence, that Nergaoul and Moelach are not visible (ie, seemingly not in the physical realm) when they cause their effect (the end of Oathbringer excluded, where Odium actively brings Nergaoul into the physical realm). Ashertmarn, on the other hand, was physically manifested in Kholinar where his influence was. Perhaps each unmade chiefly resides in its corresponding realm, although this isn't necessary to the theory. Next, the corrupters. Right off the bat we have Sja-anat, who, as the corrupter of spren, clearly deserves to be called a cognitive unmade. Next up is Yelig-nar, who corrupts people by radically altering their spiritual aspect -- as evidenced by giving them powers and forming a bond. He is also said to consume souls, which certainly sounds spiritual in nature. For this I put him as the spiritual corrupter. Lastly, we still know nothing of Dai-gonarthis, but if Re-Sphephir is a corrupter, she certainly would fit being the physical one, as she merely corrupts the physical form of the things that she copies. Lastly, the leaders. B-A-M clearly deserves to be the spiritual leader, given that she connected with the parsh and allowed them access to voidlight in the false desolation. Re-shephir, if here, again seems like a physical leader. After all, her essences don't really have a mind of their own, they are merely physical bodies that are commanded. And that leaves the Dustmother as the cognitive leader, which in my mind, even makes sense if you count as evidence that she should be similar enough in some way to the Nightwatcher that myth could conflate the two. Thus, in the end, we have this list of the categorization of unmade: Mindless unmade: Ashertmarn - physical Nergaoul - cognitive Moelach - spiritual Corrupter unmade: Dai-gonarthis/Re-shephir - physical Sja-anat - cognitive Yelig-nar - spiritual Leader unmade: Re-Shephir/Dai-gonarthis - physical Dustmother - cognitive Ba-ado-Mishram - spritual And that's the theory. tldr: 3 categories of unmade, each one containing one unmade associated in some way with each of the realms.
  16. So, we know about many Unmade powers 1. Moelach can give limited futursight, its speculated that is able to pull informations from dying. 2. Nergaoul - battle rage. 3. Sia-Anat - can change Spren. 4. Ashertmarn - gluttony 5. Re-Sephir - mimcry 6. Ba-Ado-Mishram - comanding forces and creating Connection 7. Yelig-Nar - can bond with human, granting him all 10 Surges But we dont know about powers of 2 Unmade, and one is complet mistery. We only have misterious Death Rattle about Dai-Gonartis taking away pain - what is really wierd, because this is also what Odium himself offers people. So: Dai-Gonarthis is able to manipulate emotions of people (like Allomancy) and seed mistrust. Why I think this? So, what we know about Dai-Gonarthis. We know practicly 2 things: 1. He was somehow involve in Scouring of Aimia 2. He can "take someones pain" Now we can put together this knowledge and Moashes appearence in Ch8. Moash is emotionless, he gave away his pain... and other emotions as well. Is completly hollow. And is able to somehow push away Syl from Kal, what is very similar what happend to Stormfather when Odium speaks with Dalinar. But I dont think that Odium is here, with Moash, this is not how he works - but Unmade can be here. Unmade with power to sooth someone emotions (Moash) and riot emotions in someone else (Kaladin). Kal was overwhelmed with Moashes words, much more that is "normal" even with his depresion. Of course, this can be because Moash is his friend and he sworn to protect him... or maybe Vyre now has additional shadow what follows him - Unmade. Also, many see this conversation as Moash trying to convince Kal to suicide - but i saw this as Moash trying to "DarthVader" Kal - by giving pain to Odium. If Dai-Gonarthis is on place, with Moash, can "take pain" immediately. In other case this need time to form Connection with Odium (like Dalinar or Moash). Another part of theory is binded with Urithiru history in gems. In this place i want to thank @hoiditthroughthegrapevine, who collected all gem-archives in his topic about Ba-Ado-Mishram. Without this, probably i wasnt able to create this theory. We know that Sibling withdraw from Urithiru, we dont know why. But we know that one effect of this was falling Protection against Unmade influence. Drawer 3-11: Garnet (Lightweaver) CH 73 But witch one Unmade? Moelach, Nergaoul, Ashertmarn are easy to recognise and rather easy to avoid - they are mindless, so they are atracted by certain things like other spren. Yelig-Nar also is easy, he need host to have full potential. Radiants know where Ba-Ado-Mishram is, Re-Sephir is tricky, but is possible to imprisoned her (maybe even she is improsoned, we dont know when this happend), and she is rather simple in action. Chemoarish was not seen 2000 years, even is not known what she is able to. This lives us two possibilities: - Sia-Anat - of course dangerous, can change Spren, what can be very bad for Radiants. Maybe even she was there. - Dai-Gonarthis Its few times mention how Radiant are divided. How Orders dont trust each other anymore and argue all the time, especially Windrunners and Skybreakers. And this can be influence of Unmade - little touch rioting emotions. Radiants fear Sia-Anat, but another Unmade influence them subtly, with very big effect. Probably normaly Bondsmiths were able to counter Dai-Gonarthis rather easly, but now is only one Bondsmith, and divisions between Orders is too big even without Unmade Influence. And now we go to Aimia. We know that Dai-Gonarthis somehow influence Scouring. We also know from "Dawnshard" Prologue, that Scouring wasnt one event, it were series of wars. Probably civil wars on Islands. So is easy to understand how destroy land the easiest - influence powerfull people to chalange each other. Dai-Gonartis was influencing nobles, riots internal conflicts, what in place with 3 races probably existed, and this cause the destruction of Archipelago, especially when both sides used Soulcasters on massive scale So we have it. I still dont know how to connect this with Dai-Gonarthis precursor, Semic God of Sea Dagon and with his other name, Black Fisher. But maybe i will, with your help. What do you think?
  17. This is kind of a compilation of my thoughts about it. I'm sorry if it's hard to read but I couldn't get it to come together as a research paper so much as writing out outlined sections. (I made some edits for clarity.) I. The Case for Consumption Here, I talk about what I think Voidbinding actually is. Let's begin with the following WoB: My intent behind this question was to establish that the Unmade are using Voidbinding on some level. This has been a suspicion of mine ever since I came up with the model I will describe in a later section. The powers of the Unmade have not been mimicking established magic (Surgebinding or the Old Magic), so it seemed clear to me that they were doing something else entirely. As Splinters of Odium, it seemed the most likely that they were using Odium's magic to accomplish some of what they do. More on this is also in a later section, as I will be going into more detail on the powers of the Unmade there. I call this section "The Case for Consumption" simply because the term is heavily affiliated with the Unmade. Five of the nine (Yelig-nar, Dai-Gonarthis, Re-Shephir, Nergaoul, Ashertmarn) have all had the word directly used in some manner about them. Over half does not strike me as a coincidence. The Unmade are also believed to be "personifications of kinds of destruction" (The Way of Kings Ch. 45 epigraph), and consumption would be one way in which they achieve that. Note that I speak of Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual destruction, as we have seen examples of some of those in how the Unmade afflict people. The other point I raise about consumption being the primary core of Voidbinding has to do with the nature of the Shard of Odium itself. "This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself." (Oathbringer Ch. 57) Presumably, this is Dalinar being given a glimpse of the Shard as it exists in the Spiritual Realm, but he nevertheless describes it as this all-consuming force of hatred. Voidbinding, therefore, sources from that key nature. Between the Unmade being likened to "kinds of destruction" and the Shard itself being likened to an all-consuming flame, putting two and two together shows that Voidbinding is a destructive art. Given the name, and how Odium is referred to as "the empty pit that sucks in emotion", it seems plausible to me to assert that "consuming" would be the basis behind an Odium-based magic. II. The Model / Known Levels Let's just dive right into it, shall we? Note that I am intentionally leaving out the mindless Unmade here. Level 1 -- Consumption This level draws power from an external source, depleting it, similar to how one draws power stored in a metalmind. In this level, Voidlight is the result. One synthesizes the depleted attribute into Voidlight, and this does cause damage to the afflicted, which would justify Voidbinding as a "dark and evil thing". This is the level I believe to be most commonly used by the Unmade (all nine, in fact). They Invest themselves by way of consuming a target attribute and use that power directly for one or more purposes. I also note that performing this act would make it akin to the Old Magic, which (if we assume it's what the Nightwatcher does) also causes a depletion in exchange for something else. Here, we have depletion in exchange for power. (n.b. I suspect they have a name for this that's somewhat euphemistic, similar to how corrupted spren are "Enlightened".) Unknown Level - Midnight Essence Re-Shephir is the primary source of this. I have more to say about Re-Shephir later on. Unknown Level - Surge Binding Yelig-nar performs this "service" for his hosts, at the cost of consuming their soul. I note that the aspects involved seem to be Spiritual. Unknown Level - Enlightening Here we have Sja-anat's touch. While this does not seem very consumptive, because we haven't seen the effect performed on screen, I note that it is possible to change an organism through consumption, and I refer everyone to virology for more information on the subject. A hostile takeover of the host's internal workings is one of the ways viruses propagate throughout the body, and white cells consume affected cells as part of its means of fighting off the infection. Now picture that in reverse: Sja-anat's Investiture is playing the roll of the white cell trying to "consume" the "infected" (not of Odium) aspects of Investiture of a spren. She thus replaces Investitures not of Odium with Investiture that is of Odium, resulting in a being that is comprised of multiple. It's like a transplant, in other words, except her ability suppresses the immuno response to it. III. The Powers of the Unmade It is my belief that the Unmade are doing more than merely Voidbinding, and that their massive areas of influence are not Voidbinding at all, but supported by it. Nergaoul, at the minimum, was heavily Invested with Voidlight (note the gem shining with it after his capture by Dalinar), and this was just after consuming a 10,000 strong army of soldiers while in the Physical Realm. Nergaoul was also very large in the Physical Realm, covering a good portion of Thaylen City, according to Navani's annotated map in Oathbringer, and was a "mountain of power" in the Cognitive Realm according to Shallan's observation. Additionally, we have Pattern commenting on another being below Kholinar's Oathgate that "is likely one of the Unmade. It must be very large on this side." I note the size of the Unmade for further discussion in a moment. One oddity that has struck me is that the Unmade have areas of influence that affect people in different ways. Nergaoul encourages violence, Ashertmarn encourages excess, to name two of them. I will not be going into specifics on what I think all nine do, but rather I will attempt to explain that some of them, such as Re-Shephir, are using Voidbinding and their own natures as a spren to project these influences over very large areas to achieve new effects, and even larger areas when in the Cognitive Realm. I will use Re-Shephir as my case study here, because of the following assertion: Re-Shephir uses Voidbinding to create Midnight Essence (presumably from living creatures). She then uses her store of Voidlight to project her nature as a spren to shape the Essence into a desired form. The shaping of Midnight Essence is not something I consider Voidbinding. My basis for this thinking is in how Shallan sees Re-Shephir as like a creationspren gone wrong. Re-Shephir has been directly observed to be making copies of "creatures she saw or consumed" (Oathbringer Ch. 110 epigraph), which is indeed similar to creationspren mimicking recently observed Physical Realm objects. Now suppose we were to trap a creationspren inside a gemstone and hook it up to a fabrial. While the effect may be unknown, I wonder if perhaps it might be possible to influence mutable substances (water, mud) into desired shapes by capturing creationspren that are mimicking such shapes. The point I am trying to make, is that spren project their natures when in the presence of stimuli and Investiture (the gem's Invested state). We've seen this most commonly with flamespren that make heat fabrials. Flamespren "evoke" the concept of heat to which they are attracted. Now imagine a spren that doesn't need to be both in a gemstone and subjected to stimuli to do this, but rather is a spren that has access to large quantities of Investiture and was, say, subjected to a certain Vessel of Odium making them be able to evoke this nature. In Re-Shephir's case, that's mimickry, an influence which can be applied to Midnight Essence. We know that Midnight Essence can be "extracted and used independently" (WoB), so the shaping of it is not exclusive to Re-Shephir. This is why I bring up the possibility of creationspren-based fabrials allowing for creating works of art with mutable substances. This projection of nature is how I see Nergaoul as capable of affecting people with the Thrill over a massive area of influence. He is so large in the Cognitive Realm, and so Invested, that like a fabrial emitting heat, he "emits" the Thrill on a very large area simply due to sheer size and power. Similar reasoning would apply to the other Unmade that influence the mind. Much like a fabrial evoking an effect, they are broadcasting specific states of being on a wide area, and it's for this reason that I think calling them spren is very accurate. We have seen something like this with Shallan and Re-Shephir, which in her case would be "twisted creativity". She created multiple drawings she can't recall doing, but were still in her sketchbook, and she also created multiple mimicries of herself without having the need to draw them first. This influence on Shallan's drawing is why I suspect Re-Shephir is projecting an influence whose effect is what enables her to alter the shape of Midnight Essence. So, with that established, I think we can say that all nine have similar influences, and that we can potentially name them _____spren for what kind of influence they project, and that because they are all Invested Splinters of Odium, they are actually affecting people much like a fabrial hypothetically could. So there you have it, a lot of words about my thoughts on Voidbinding and how it relates to the Unmade. I will be very interested to hear what everyone has to say about this work.
  18. Bondsmiths are special, we all know that. To quote the Stormfather: They get the most unique spren, which, apart from granting Tension and Adhesion, have some unique abilities or phenomena associated with them. Based on that, I always assumed that the Unmade would be the spren for the Voidbinding equivalent of the Bondsmith Order. What if that is not the case? I'd like to present some arguments why I believe the “privileged” Order of Voidbinding could be the Truthwatchers: Truthwatchers are opposite to Bondsmiths on the Surgebinding chart, symbolizing Odium and Honor as opposing forces Odium doesn't really care about uniting anyone. Spiritual Adhesion is a special, cherished power in Surgebinding. Amongst the Voidbringers, the Envoyform is granted by a lesser Voidspren and relatively low on the hierarchy Odium's signature moves are futuresight (Voidish Illumination) and corrupting Investiture/spren/people (spiritweb modification = Progression). These are also the most Spiritually oriented Voidish powers we know, just as Bondsmiths get the most Spiritually oriented Surges amongst the KR (WoB) Voidbinder's futuresight interferes with Odium's own and it would make sense for it to be available only to his very selected servants Odium's Champion, likely the most powerful Voidbinder possible, is described as surrounded by multiple shadows, a possible nod to (Mistborn spoilers) Futuresight, unlike other Voidish powers, is granted (directly or indirectly) by at least two Unmade: Sja-anat and Moelach. I would also add Ba-Ado-Mishram as a likely candidate for granting the Nightform somehow (we know from Pashendi Songs that the Unmade might provide them). Why? The Nightforms existed for the last time during the False Desolation and they apparently predicted the Everstorm (“A new storm will come, someday to break” line from Song of Secrets). That's seeing hundreds (thousands?) years into the future – a feat I can only ascribe to the influence of an extremely powerful Unmade Sja-anat seems to be the Unmade whose additional powers correspond to the Truthwatcher Order and she was the most feared amongst them. We've seen her corrupt two kinds of sentient spren: Truthwatcher and Oathgate spren. Of these, only the former get a new, distinctive Surge variant, which I think might be caused by their direct Connection to Sja-anat herself (she definitely has a Connection to her lesser spren “children” as she can communicate with people through them) Voidbinding is very mysterious, but (based on chart similarity with Surgebinding) I would assume that it requires a permanent bond with sapient Voidspren. We also know that Voidbinding typically originates with the Unmade and is somehow similar to the Old Magic. How could all of this fit together? Unmade being Truthwatcher spren offers a solution, I think: once you bond an Unmade permanently, your spiritweb and body gets seriously and visibly corrupted (think of Amaram and Aesudan) and you get a Spritual Progression ability to corrupt others in a similar way, allowing them to bond Voidspren permanently
  19. I just re-read chapter 1 of The Way of Kings, and I was struck by a couple things - the prevalence of the color red in the decor, when the Kholin color is blue, and the description Szeth gives of a "new rhythm" played by the Parshendi drummers: " a quartet of thumping hearts, pumping waves of invisible blood through the room." At least twice in the first 2 pages, he uses the word "revelry" to describe what's going on. The red might relate to something else, but the rest of it (to me) kind of screams "Heart of the Revel." What do you all think?
  20. This is essentially a continuation of my previous thread: tl;dr version of it: I believe that Near East mythology (Ugaritic Baal Cycle, specifically) predicts that Rayse and the Fused will be killed with Sja-anat's help by the end of Arc 1. Arc 2 will be about Odium reforming itself OK, we can start We know that the names of the Unmade come from Near East (mostly Canaanite) mythology (plus some Lovecraft). Imagine my surprise when I found out that the same applies to selected Heralds and the Sibling: Ishar – Ishara, originally a Canaanite love goddess, then turned into Hittite goddess of oaths, who punishes the oathbreakers. Quite a fitting connection, I would say Shalash – Shamash, Mesopotamian god of Sun and light. Once again quite a good match Jezrien – supreme god (depending on the culture: El, Anu, Amurru, Yahweh). His later name, Ahu, is (given the nature of the letter 'h') pretty much identical to Anu. I believe that the fact that his names typically start with Je-/Ya- is a link to Jehovah/Yahweh (plus he's also worshipped as the only god in Emul) The names of the other Heralds don't have mythological origin, as far as I can say, which makes sense in a way, as in the ancient Near East only royalty (Jezrien, Ash) and maybe high priests (Ishar) would use names associated with divinity. They all, however, share the suffix “'Elin” which seems to come from El, associated with Jezrien The Sibling – Ashur, who represents a deified form of the city of Assur – clearly the same concept as the Sibling and Urithiru Fun fact: staring from Ashur, we can find a nice chain of (probably Easter egg) connections scattered around the Stormlight books. Ashur appears in the name of one of the last Assyrian kins – Ashurbanipal (literally 'Ashur has given a son-heir') who happens to share some similarities with Dalinar: he was known as the king who could read and write (not a small feat, given the complexity of cuneiform and ancient Summerian and Akkadian) he lost his lands in the West, but gained new in the East his capital, Nineveh, had the largest library of ancient knowledge at the time (similar to Urithiru) and was prophesied in the Bible to be completely destroyed (similar to the fate of Kholinar in Almighty's visions) the prophecy from the previous point was made by the prophet Jonah, who was, according to Bible, swallowed by a giant fish at one point – something weirdly similar to what happens to Hoid and a greatshell, as described by Lift Given all that, I can see two interesting theories/implications: The Unmade are Odium's Heralds/Honorblades: I have assumed for a long time that the Unmade would be the Bondsmith godspren (or maybe Truthwatcher godspren) for Voidbinding, but in the light of the new evidence I believe they are the equivalent of the Heralds instead. It makes sense: they are superpowered beings using their Shard's power on a hostile Shard's territory, trying not to get captured. They are also not exactly efficient – Yelig-nar uses his hosts up rather quickly, as the Honorblades use Stormlight The new, evil Oathpact As I wrote above, I believe that Arc 2 will include reforming Odium. We know that: there is no Unmade corresponding to the Order of Bondsmiths Ishar is a crazy, egomaniac Bondsmith who possibly wants the death of all mankind Arc 2 will be about figuring out the Oathpact Based on that, a possible mechanism of Odium's return is a new, evil Oathpact on Roshar - one between Ishar and the Unmade. It could be enough for Ishar to Ascend and bring Voidbinding (10-based, Voidspren bond based magic system) to Roshar – essentially a twisted version of what Dalinar tries to achieve with Honor and the KR in Arc 1
  21. So, we know that in-world alive spren belive, that is impossible to resurrect deadeye spren, but we have other information. We also have case of Adolin, he is going to resurrect his blade, and question is when, not if (and this other wierd thing, because Edgedacers are granted with Blade on 3d Ideal, but Adolin have dead Blade allready, how this will work? He will speak 1st Ideal and he will be able to summon Blade in less and less heartbeats? Like 7 on 1st, 4 on 2nd, and 0 on 3d? BTW, I think he allready starts becoming Radiant. Durring fight against Thundrclast he took massive damage and was able to continue fighting). But when Adolin Resurrect Maya, spren and people will aknowledge that this is possible. Of course, Adolin has really close Connection with Maya, so close that he probably "rewrite" her old Connection with now-long-dead-Radiant. Maybe this can be also due Mayas nature, she is Culitvationspren, so can have bigger ability to grow and heal in time. Additionaly, it will be rally cool, that Maya will grant Adolin with Regrowth Surge, and he will use this to heal HER (if its possible of course). Anyway, not every Shardbearer has the same Connection with his Blade as Adolin has. For most, Shardblades are, simply, just blades. So to ressurect other Spren, we will need other solution. And maybe we have it. Possibility not available for ancient Radiants, even more, feared. Yep. Traitor. Odium Splinter with Will strong enough to break free. Sia-Anat. She can change Spren. And spren changed by her can restore some abilities - we saw this in Kholinar Oathgate. After Honors death, Oathgate spren are not allow to pass anyone in or out Shadesmar. But Kholinar Oathgate spren arent restricted, after Sia-Anat touch. We know also, that she has control over that changes, because Odium wants to kill Kal and co. with this Oathgate, but she choose to change spren other way. We know also that Sia-Anat children can bond with Humans, Glys is one of them afterall. This can be Sia-Anat proof of loyality and pure intentions. She may be able to remove part with Connection with dead Radiant from deadeye spren, leaving them changed, but with ability to form new Connection, and this new bond will heal Spren. And what Sia-Anat will have from this? Simply - more children. She seems to be really caring about them, what is.... wierd for Splinter of Hatered. We can also speculate that one who get this idea will be Renarin - simply because of Glys.
  22. The first thing I would like the point out is that, this is something that came to my mind this morning when I was unable to sleep due to the heat in the UK at the moment, it could be very flawed and I could have had many things really muddled up. But, with everyones input and thoughts, I am sure more sense could be made out of this. Outside of the books, I must admit I am unsure with how much has been revealed from Sanderson himself, most of this could be unproven or thrown under the rug, but I think it's intersting. So, I have a theory about the Unmade, The Heralds and Honorblades. Basically, the history of the Unmade is very cloudy and in modern Roshar, their history is largely unknown. Some sources claimed there was 10 but it is generally assumed that there are 9. This I think is very interesting and quite important. There are 10 heralds, and only 9 Unmade (but there could be 10, see what I am getting at?). Ever since the Oathpact was abandoned, only 1 herald went to Braize, being Taln. This means there are 9 Heralds left on Roshar, incidentally there are 9 Unmade. I think there is a link there… I do believe that there are 10 Unmade, and even though sources indicate that they have existed on Roshar since before the Desolations, I debate how true this is (backed up by the clouded history). I think, in previous Desolations when the Heralds were trapped on Braize, they were being tormented and fighting against a specific Unmade (one per Herald, and its Voidspren). After the Oathpact was broken, and only Taln went to Braize, his Unmade went with him. Thus, 9 Unmade were on Roshar with the 9 Heralds, and 1 on Braize with Taln. [Off topic I thought of in my edit, but, the Unmade could be Odiums ‘Heralds’. We have seen the Fused use surges, maybe there are different types of Voidspren, similar to the different Spren needed for each order of Radiants: Honorspren, Cryptics, etc.] For whatever reason, the Voidspren remain trapped on Braize as long as one Herald and Unmade are present. (This I can’t seem to find a logical reason for, but I think it is important, something about a Herald being on Braize keeps them trapped, even if it is one Herald.) After Taln had given in, and returned to Roshar, everything on Braize was freed. Thus, the coming of the True Desolation. This also means I think a 10th Unmade has come to Roshar, one that has been ignored. (this backing up some sources from history that claim there were 10). This was the first thing I have been thinking on. Secondly, Moash and Honorblades. Moash killed Jezrien in a way that is unlike that in history, when a Herald got killed in history, they seemed to return to Braize, however, Moash killed Jezrian with a knife that contained a gemstone. I think Odium has been cunning in his planning. 4500 years had passed since the last Desolation, the longest time in history; this is A LOT of planning time. We don’t know much about the creation of Honorblades, and we know Shardblades are Spren that mimicked Radiant surges, but Honorblades are said to be a type of Splinter of Honor. I think however, Odium has found ways to create an Honorblade out of the Herald itself. This would be interesting, if the gemstone in the dagger Moash used has bound the herald, (also confirming this death being ‘different’), then perhaps that gemstone can be used to create a new Honorblade. And this could have interesting implications, imagine if his new Honorblade/Heraldblade?, allowed the wielder to become to new head of that order of Radiant. Imagine if, it actually allowed them to manipulate and ‘control’ the knights under that order; it would really mess up Dalinar’s plans. I feel like Moash will also be the first person to wield this. I find it too strange the Jezrien (being the order of windrunners, thus Kaladin, Moash’s ‘friend’) is the first Herald to be killed in this way. If a new kind of power is created from Jezrien, and Moash wields it, then, he could take control of the Windrunners, and if he is able to somehow influence them, he could turn them against Dalinar. And Moash being Moash, will probably try to convince Kaladin that this is the ‘right’ thing to do. Ironically, this could be what leads to Kaladin debating breaking his oaths, as what Syl and the Stormfather have been promising would happen, but this time, in a way that is ‘different’ to The Day of Recreance. Since this is the True Desolation, it would make more sense that things would turn out differently to how they have in the past, ESPECIALLY with this additional time Odium has had to plan.
  23. I apologize if this has already been asked, but could Sja-anat corrupt a bonded spren? We know that corrupted spren can bond (Renarin and Glys), but could an already bonded spren be corrupted by Her? Lets say Syl was exploring while Kaladin was sleeping, and came into contact with Sja-anat, who tried to corrupt Syl. Would it work? Or would her bond protect her? If it does, does it matter how strong the bond is? lets say this happened late WoR, when Syl and Kaladins bond was strained. Would it protect her then? Also, can a corrupted spren heal, or are they stuck like that forever?
  24. We got the whole thrill gem would could we use it for?
  25. A couple of years back, I posted a thread about how the names of the Unknown listed in Words of Radiance resembled a bunch of Mesopotamian gods. I'd like to start digging into the new Unmade names in Oathbringer. Previous thread: Other thread I wasn't in: In the meantime, a friend of mine asked Brandon about the Unmade names and Brandon said that he was inspired by real-world sources, but the sources didn't really have any influence on the Stormlight Archive plot. So this thread is just for fun inspiration digging. There aren't going to be any cool revelations about what will happen later in the series. Really. This is me being pedantic and academic. Anyways, I made a handy-dandy chart of the Unmade and which Mesopotamian gods I think Brandon got the names from: Unmade Nickname Powers Source? Yelig-Nar Blight Wind Consumes souls? ? Sja-anat Corrupts spren Satan (New Testament) or Anat, the Ugaritic and Egyptian goddess Nergaoul Causes the Thrill Nergal, the Mesopotamian god of death, pestilence and plague, and Lord of the Underworld Moelach Causes the Death Rattles Moloch, God of fire and chaos; child sacrifices Dai-gonarthis Black Fisher ? Dagan or Dagon, fisher or spear god Re-Shephir Midnight Mother Copycat murders Resheph, a Canaanite/Ugaritic god of plague; often equated to Nergal Ashertmarn Heart of the Revel Partying Ashera, Sumerian goddess and lady of the sea Bo-Ado-Mishram Commander of the unmade? Baal-Hadad? Seems a bit of a stretch. Chemoarish Dustmother ? Chemosh, Moabite god We previously attributed Re-Shephir to Resheph, Dai-gonarthis to Dagon (although he might not be an Unmade after all), Moelach to Moloch, and Nergaoul to Nergal. There's also been some debate over whether Sja-anat gets her name from Satan or Anat. Personally, I lean towards Anat. Anat was a goddess in both Egypt and Mesopotamian cultures, while Satan originates in the Old Testament and is never a Mesopotamian (or other nearby culture's) god. Of the new Unmade we learn about in Oathbringer, Chemoarish seems to pretty obviously take her name from the Moabite god Chemosh. The one wrinkle in that is Chemosh is a male god, while Chemoarish's sobriquet "Dustmother" implies she's a female spren. Ashertmarn is a bit more difficult. There's a goddess named Astarte/Astoreth, but I think it's Asherah, another goddess in the area. The "marn" part I have no idea about. Asherah is also called Asherah of the Sea, or Asheret Ya'am, and "mar" means "sea" in Spanish? I think that's a coincidence though. Bo-Ado-Mishram is a tough one. There's a god called Hadad who was also sometimes called Baal-Hadad (a conflation of two separate gods I think?). If you take a syllable from each name you get "Ba Ad", which is maybe a tiny bit similar? I think I'm on the wrong track with this one. Help! And as always, who the heck knows where Yelig-nar comes from. There's also the question of whether Brandon was taking inspiration from Judeo-Christian demons or Mesopotamian gods. Judeo-Christianity tends to label Mesopotamian gods as demons, hence the crossover. For example, Moloch, Dagon, Resheph, Asherah, and Nergal all get Old Testament mentions (I know very little New Testament stuff, so if anyone wants to chime in on that end that'd be great). This really comes into play over whether Sja-anat gets her name from Satan or Anat; the former is only possible if Brandon was going for demonology.