Search the Community

Showing results for tags 'truthwatchers'.

More search options

  • Search By Tags

    Type tags separated by commas.
  • Search By Author

Content Type


  • Brandon and Book News
  • Events, Signings, & Giveaways
  • Columns and Features
  • Site News
  • Shardcast


  • 17th Shard
    • Introduce Yourself!
    • 17th Shard Discussion
    • The Coppermind Wiki
    • Arcanum Discussion
  • Brandon Sanderson
    • General Brandon Discussion
    • Events and Signings
    • Sanderson Fan Works
    • Arcanum, the Brandon Sanderson Archive
  • Spoiler Zone
    • The Lost Metal (Mistborn Spoilers Only, No Cosmere)
    • Tress of the Emerald Sea (No Cosmere Spoilers)
    • New Cosmere Releases (Lost Metal and Tress Spoilers)
  • The Cosmere
    • Cosmere Q&A
    • Cosmere Discussion
    • Cosmere Secret Projects Previews
    • Stormlight Archive
    • Mistborn
    • Elantris and Emperor's Soul
    • Warbreaker
    • White Sand
    • Cosmere Short Stories
    • Unpublished Works
  • Non-cosmere Works
    • Non-cosmere Secret Project
    • The Reckoners
    • Skyward
    • The Rithmatist
    • Alcatraz
    • Dark One
    • Other Stories
    • The Wheel of Time
  • Related Works
    • Writing Excuses
    • Reading Excuses
    • TWG Archive
  • Community
    • General Discussion
    • Entertainment Discussion
    • Science, Tech, and Math Discussion
    • Creator's Corner
    • Role-Playing
    • Social Groups, Clans, and Guilds


  • Chaos' Blog
  • Leinton's Blog
  • 17th Shard Blog
  • KChan's Blog
  • Puck's Blag
  • Brandon's Blog
  • Darth Squirrely's Blog
  • Tales of a Firebug
  • borborygmus' Blog
  • Zeadman's Blog
  • zas678's Blog
  • The Basement
  • Addy's Avocations
  • Zarepath's Blog
  • First time reading The Well Of Ascension
  • Seshperankh's Blog
  • "I Have Opinions About Books"
  • Test
  • Which actors would you like to see playing the characters of Mistborn?
  • Drifted Mists
  • Jaron's Realm
  • Roshar Speculative Theories
  • ChrisHamatake's Blog
  • Paradox Flint's Blog
  • Deoradhan's Blog
  • Storm Blessed's Blog
  • Elwynn's Blog
  • firstRainbowRose's Blog
  • Rotabush ShardBlog
  • Hoid's Compendium
  • InterContinental Adventures
  • Claincy Creates
  • WoR Thoughts and Questions
  • Blogfalcon
  • David Coppercloud's Blog
  • yurisses' notes and theories
  • Lark Adventures
  • LUNA's Poetry
  • Inspiration Board
  • Trying to be Useful for a Change
  • The Way of Toasters
  • Cosmere Nerd Things
  • Dapper's Music Blog
  • Shhh Spoilers for Ronald.
  • Wyn's Adventures in Geekiness
  • Words With Ene
  • Dapper's Blog
  • Things to talk about, stuff to do
  • Zelly's Healthy-Accountability Blog
  • Even These Acronyms
  • Rhythm of War Liveblog
  • Unnecessarily Overcomplicated
  • Star's Art Blog
  • Weather Reports
  • Axioms Idioms & Adages
  • The Blog of Dubious Copyright Legality
  • Trutharchivist's Rambles
  • 5
  • Xino's corner of insanity
  • The Perfect Space Opera
  • My Journey Through Roshar (A Liveblog)
  • Lost Metal Liveblog by ccstat


  • Community Calendar

Found 20 results

  1. So, I've been looking over a lot of things related to the Truthwatchers over the past few days, and I think I may have stumbled on an intriguing thread. Up to this point, I (and so far as I can tell, most other readers) have chalked up Renarin's foresight visions as being the result of Glys' corruption/enlightenment by Sja-Anat, since predicting the future is regarded as being of Odium in-universe. And I do still think that's part of it, but I don't think it's the whole story. Remember way back to WoK, what Honor said in his final message to Dalinar: Emphasis mine. 'Cultivation,' the growing of things in a certain way, is also an Intent that lends itself well to predicting the future, and we know she was at least skilled and confident enough in her abilities to gamble on the creation of Todium. Taken together I think all this goes to show that the in-universe attitude of acting like future prediction 'belongs' to Odium is a false assumption that fails to account for Cultivation's affinity with that ability, and this is what the rest of my theory ultimately hinges on. Now, moving on, let's take a look at the radiant order/surgebinding chart: If you look, there's a couple dichotomies between the top and bottom halves of the chart, which I believe indicate that the two halves are mirrors of each other with the top weighted towards Honor and the bottom towards Cultivation. On the top we have all male (like Honor) Heralds, and on the bottom we have all female (like Cultivation) Heralds. Where we have the Windrunners (bound to Honorspren) above, directly below we have the Edgedancers (bound to Cultivationspren). Where we have "Honor's truest surge" of Adhesion above, below it we have Progression (which, while as far as we know is not purely of Cultivation, seems to be the closest of the surges to her thematically and was one of two usable radiant surges during the occupation of Urithiru). And while it's not on the chart, we have a WoB saying that Truthwatcher spren are closer to Cultivation than Honor. So, with this in mind, I think the Truthwatchers are the Cultivation-aligned mirror of the Bondsmiths, being capable of using their respective Shard's 'truest surge' and mimicking their Shard's abilities, and using their surges in more Spiritual ways than their neighboring orders. And as we've seen, in Dalinar's case that affinity with the Spiritual Realm tends to manfest itself in the creation of visions for himself and others. It was at this point that, to me, Renarin's visions looked less like a product of Odium's influence, and more like something that was already there and tweaked by Sja-Anat. Before i get to this last bit, I'll freely admit I think this is the flimsiest evidence I have in support of this theory. There's a lot of potential for unreliable narrators and missing or corrupted pieces of history and all that. The quote from Mythica would seem to indicate that the corruption of radiant spren is a new phenomenon, or at least that the ancient radiants didn't seem to know about it if it was happening. In that case, there wouldn't have been any spren like Glys around, and there wouldn't be any precognitive Truthwatchers if Sja-Anat's corruption is the source of that ability. Now, take a look at that recorded quote from the Urithiru gem archive. While the speaker could be speaking in a mundane sense when they say they foresaw something (probably the Recreance or the side effects of bonding BAM), the fact that it was included in the book makes me think it's more significant than that. If this unknown Truthwatcher really did have foresight, then that leaves two potential possibilities I can think of. The first is that their Mistspren (and possibly other radiant spren) had become corrupted, but that between them probably not wanting to advertise that fact and it being so close to the Recreance that fact was lost to history. The other possibility is, as I've said, that Truthwatchers don't need to be corrupted to have precognition. Like I said at the start, I do still think that Sja-Anat's corruption/enlightenment changes how the precognition works somehow. It's possible that, in normal Truthwatchers, the precognition is far more subtle, circumstantial, difficult to get working, etc., which could be why we haven't seen or heard mention of, say, Stump seeing the future. I think there's a good chance that the corruption makes it stronger or more accessible, possibly at the cost of 'flavoring' the visions, making it more likely that you'll see painful things or worst-case-scenarios. But I think it is a change to an existing ability, not creating a new one altogether.
  2. So as a certified Truthwatcher, and rather obviously a …modified one, I started wondering how my spren would look like. Or in general, how this kind of spren looks. So there's them (I don't have an idea for the name yet, and for gender it's probably 'n/a'). Note: While I usually roll my eyes at all the "OC, do not steal, copyright!!1" notes, especially at work of mediocre skill, like this one (I respect everyone's copyright, I just think such notes are pretentious and unnecessary), this is something I feel an emotional connection to, so please don't use it as illustration of other stuff. I'm fine with posting/pinning, I'd be very happy with someone adapting my headcanon about how modified mistpren look and drawing something of their own with similar features, but I'm not fine with using this image as an illustration for a canon spren, or your spren or something along those lines, or (especially) something not SA-related (like: your RPG character). I'm sure there are a lot of better drawn pictures anyway. Also, this is not a Glys fanart.

    © please read the description

  3. Following the example of @Rosharan A.C., who created a place for official Edgedancers based on the Official Knights Radiant Quiz, I decided to create a kind of place for Truthwatchers, so we can make Truthdancers and Edgewatchers parties and eat pancakes all together while asking us the big questions. Just kidding in this one, we all know that the answer to everything is 42, but sssssh, don't reveal it to anyone, is a Truthwatcher's secret -Crew rules: 1. You should be a Truthwatcher, an Edgedancer or a Windrunner. If you're not, you can join, too, but you will have to prepare food for the Edgedancers. (Just kidding ) 2. All members must respect each other as well as any other crew with Knights Radiant in them. 3. Any new rules can be made if we find truth in them. If they are lies, they won't be accepted. 4. The cake is a lie, so please, don't bring the cake here. 5. Remember our Order's secret: And that would be all at this moment. Have fun ^^
  4. We know, that Renarin isnt able to use standard Ilumination like other Truthwatchers. He simply creates lights, and they sometimes act strange. And he has his visions. Many Sharders think that this is Voidish Ilumination - futursight, but i highly doubht it. First thing, we know that every surge has Physical and Spiritual aspect. Adhesion can connect people, Transformation can transform them etc. So its safe assume that Ilumination also have Spiritual Aspect as well. And Spiritual Aspect of Ilumination is futuresight. We can even see this in the books - Shallan scetch Yalb survieving ships soulcasting, we see many times Shallans scetches with people in theirs "best versions" - and they later become this version of themselves. So with Illumination Shallan is able to "see" possible future of people and set them (with Spiritual Transformation) on way to this future. So I think that any Truthwatcher and Lightweaver will be able to see partialy into the future. Difference is influence of second power of Radiant - for Truthwatchers is progression, slow growth without revolutionary changes, for Lightweavers its Transformation - one sudden change. So: - Truthwatchers can see people/things future if they stay on their path and dont change - Lightweavers can see people/things future if they change rapidly for the best. And any shard can grant his servants (?) with some form of futursight. And Cultivation is very good at it - and spren ar partialy from Cultivation, Truthwatchers spren probably the most (after Edgedancrs ones), Cryptics are personification of laws of Physics, so also closer to Cultivation than to Honor. So we have it, but why Renarin is so special? Of course, reason after this is his Spren. But I think it is not because he has some Connection to Odium - I think this is because he is damaged. We know that in whole Cosmere magic - Investiture need Intent and Focus. If any of those elements is not correct, Investiture also dont work correctly. If focus of Metalic Arts has not right composition, it will make Allomancer sick in the best scenario. If Command is not clear or too quiet, will not Awake. If Aon is only slightly incorrect, it will have lesser effect, dont work or even work differently. And Spren is focus of Rosharan Magic System. So if Spren is damaged, Surges he granted will also dont work properly. And we can claerly see witch Surge is damaged - its Illumination. But spren is Focus for both Surges equaly, so need to grant his Radiant access to both. And when he cannot grant full access into proper Surge (because is not perfect Focus) he shifts on other aspect of Surge he can grant. So Renarin dont have proper Illumination powers, because Glys is damaged, but becaouse Investiture have to flow and Force have to go somewhere, he has powers Shifted towards Spiritual Illumination - and this mean visons.
  5. Bondsmiths are special, we all know that. To quote the Stormfather: They get the most unique spren, which, apart from granting Tension and Adhesion, have some unique abilities or phenomena associated with them. Based on that, I always assumed that the Unmade would be the spren for the Voidbinding equivalent of the Bondsmith Order. What if that is not the case? I'd like to present some arguments why I believe the “privileged” Order of Voidbinding could be the Truthwatchers: Truthwatchers are opposite to Bondsmiths on the Surgebinding chart, symbolizing Odium and Honor as opposing forces Odium doesn't really care about uniting anyone. Spiritual Adhesion is a special, cherished power in Surgebinding. Amongst the Voidbringers, the Envoyform is granted by a lesser Voidspren and relatively low on the hierarchy Odium's signature moves are futuresight (Voidish Illumination) and corrupting Investiture/spren/people (spiritweb modification = Progression). These are also the most Spiritually oriented Voidish powers we know, just as Bondsmiths get the most Spiritually oriented Surges amongst the KR (WoB) Voidbinder's futuresight interferes with Odium's own and it would make sense for it to be available only to his very selected servants Odium's Champion, likely the most powerful Voidbinder possible, is described as surrounded by multiple shadows, a possible nod to (Mistborn spoilers) Futuresight, unlike other Voidish powers, is granted (directly or indirectly) by at least two Unmade: Sja-anat and Moelach. I would also add Ba-Ado-Mishram as a likely candidate for granting the Nightform somehow (we know from Pashendi Songs that the Unmade might provide them). Why? The Nightforms existed for the last time during the False Desolation and they apparently predicted the Everstorm (“A new storm will come, someday to break” line from Song of Secrets). That's seeing hundreds (thousands?) years into the future – a feat I can only ascribe to the influence of an extremely powerful Unmade Sja-anat seems to be the Unmade whose additional powers correspond to the Truthwatcher Order and she was the most feared amongst them. We've seen her corrupt two kinds of sentient spren: Truthwatcher and Oathgate spren. Of these, only the former get a new, distinctive Surge variant, which I think might be caused by their direct Connection to Sja-anat herself (she definitely has a Connection to her lesser spren “children” as she can communicate with people through them) Voidbinding is very mysterious, but (based on chart similarity with Surgebinding) I would assume that it requires a permanent bond with sapient Voidspren. We also know that Voidbinding typically originates with the Unmade and is somehow similar to the Old Magic. How could all of this fit together? Unmade being Truthwatcher spren offers a solution, I think: once you bond an Unmade permanently, your spiritweb and body gets seriously and visibly corrupted (think of Amaram and Aesudan) and you get a Spritual Progression ability to corrupt others in a similar way, allowing them to bond Voidspren permanently
  6. So I have a suspicion about the identity of the elusive spren of the Radiant order of Truthwatchers. In Edgedancer (about a page into chapter six), Lift’s Cultivationspren, Wyndle, mentions a type of spren known as Keenspren. Context: Lift was talking with a young street urchin, using all kinds of very strange words in odd ways. After the urchin leaves, Wyndle says: “Mistress, that was the strangest conversation I’ve ever heard, and I once grew an entire garden for some keenspren.” Truthwatcher’s spren are described as looking like “light reflected onto a surface through a crystal.” And Glys, Renarin’s corrupted spren, looks like a crystalline snowflake growing up from Renarin’s back. Many of the examples of corrupted spren we’ve seen were still recognizable as the type of spren they were. Keen means sharp, either in mind or as an edge, like a blade. I think this correlates well with what we’ve heard of the spren’s appearance in addition to the traditional personality attributed to the order of Truthwatchers. I would love to hear other suspicions about the Truthwatcherspren. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, so please share your thoughts on my theory!
  7. Haven't seen a lot of speculation on truthwatcher abilities, but I was wondering what people thought 'real' truthwatchers would be able to do ? Currently I reckon they can see the whole spectrum, instead of being able to manipulate it, as in, they can see x-rays and ultraviolet and things. And maybe hear through walls in some way ? More of a seeing interpretation of the wavey surge than an actively changing one. I also think they would be able to see (in some way) through the other realms, maybe cognitively for telling truths ? Or spiritually for futuresight, but undecided on whether that's an odium thing or just a more secret truthwatcher thing.
  8. Do we know what the name for the truthwatcher spren is?
  9. The recent Shardcast discussing the Part 3 Epigraphs (the gemstone recordings) brought some things together in my mind, and prompted an intriguing question. Things we know: After Aharietiam the Fused were confined to Braize and Odium could not provide the Regals with voidlight. However, during an event known as the False Desolation, Ba-Ado-Mishram was able to stand in for Odium and provide voidlight to the singers, enabling them to use the forms of power. Melishi the bondsmith came up with a plan to counter this and organized a strike force of Truthwatchers to capture Ba-Ado-Mishram. (For more about Melishi and the False Desolation, check out this thread or listen to the Shardcast linked above.) Ba-Ado-Mishram has not been active in modern Roshar, and is presumably still trapped. (For more about that, see this thread.) Epigraphs where we learn about all this: So what do we know about trapping Unmade? We saw it happen once in OB, along with some additional hints. While difficult to accomplish, it's only slightly more complicated that "grab the spren and stick it in a gem." You need one of the special "perfect" gemstones like the King's Drop and you need bait. You may or may not also need a bondsmith to lock the Unmade inside. The gemstone recording says "It would require a special prison. And Melishi." I don't know whether Melishi is functioning as bait or as prison warden here, but since his stratagem was "related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths" I am inclined toward the latter. But you definitely need bait. Taravangian describes it to Dalinar this way, in reference to lesser spren: Remembering this, Dalinar decides to make himself the bait for Nergaoul during the battle of Thaylen Field. That is an obvious match since the Blackthorn is the perfect vessel for the Thrill, someone who was gleefully addicted it for decades. In the sub-basement of Urithiru, Shallan learns that a previous Lightweaver served as bait for Re-Shephir. Excerpt of the Re-Shephir confrontation from Ch 30: So Re-Shephir is similar to creationspren, the presumed secondary spren of Lightweavers that are attracted to their artistic abilities. And Shallan is all about creating imitations of things, which makes her extremely compatible with Re-Shephir (note the Unmade's attempt to displace Pattern). So when Shallan opens herself to Re-Shephir, it is too much like the last encounter with a Lightweaver and Re-Shephir flees, fearing imprisonment. Shallan encounters two more Unmade in Kholinar. Sja-Anat just talks to her, but Ashertmarn is attracted to her. The attraction isn't related to her Lightweaver status this time, but rather to her fracturing psyche full of competing desires: This affinity is real, but doesn't seem anywhere close to the oneness that Shallan experiences with Re-Shephir, or that Dalinar has Nergaoul. The odd thing to note is that Melishi's strike team appears to consist entirely of Truthwatchers. This indicates that members of that order may be uniquely suited to act as bait for Ba-Ado-Mishram. So what are the qualities of Truthwatchers, and what can that tell us about the personality/effects of this particular Unmade? (Presumably we could draw conclusions about the Truthwatchers from information about the Unmade, but we know even less about her than we do about the order.) We know that they use Progression and Illumination. They are associated with Pailiah's divine attributes: learned and giving. The in-world Words of Radiance has this to say: They were secretive and... that's about it. If only Ba-Ado-Mishram and not Sja-Anat were the Unmade known as the Taker of Secrets. But no, that can't be it. Honestly I'm pretty stumped at this point. Brandon has repeatedly RAFO'd information about the Truthwatchers, so we don't have any useful WoBs about their resonance, their nahel spren, or the lesser spren associate with their order. The only thing we have is a soft confirmation that they are an order that "is about using knowledge to help people" (questioner's phrasing). There has been a fair amount of speculation in other threads about the Truthwatcher resonance, but nearly all of our data comes from Renarin who, after the reveals of OB, is clearly not representative. He says he "sees," which I believe applies to more than his atypical future sight, but there is not clear textual support for that yet. I'm still pondering this relationship between the Truthwatchers and Ba-Ado-Mishram, and I will be looking for more hints on my reread. My best guess at this point has to do with discerning the essence of things. She served as a general during Desolations, and that ability to perceive would be extremely useful in that context. I look forward to seeing your suggestions and speculation.
  10. From the album Stormlight Archive desktop wallpapers

    Truthwatchers wallpaper with a quote from Words of Radiance
  11. I was processing books for the library at my school, and I decided to take a look at the beautiful endpaper maps and diagrams for the copy of The Way of Kings that had just come in. I noticed that on the "Double Eye" diagram of the radiant orders, the two orders in the center were the Bondsmiths and the Truthwatchers. This interested me, and got me to start wondering why the Truthwatchers are in the center with the Bondsmiths, who we know were the leaders and generals of the Knights Radiant. Here are a few of my theories: Truthwatchers are close to Cultivation like Bondsmiths are close to Honor - Some problems with this one: We don't really know if the Bondsmiths are specifically closer to Honor than other orders like the Windrunners. All we know is that Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, the godspren of Honor, and I think the prevailing theory is that there are three Bondsmiths, each bonded to a different godspren. We also know that Truthwatchers aren't bonded to a godspren - Renarin is bonded with a spren named Glys, not the Nightwatcher. A different direction with this theory would be that the surges, not the orders, are what's important on this chart. This would mean that some surges are more associated with Cultivation, and others with Honor, i.e. Feruchemy with Preservation and Hemalurgy with Ruin. This would just mean that Illumination and Progression just happened to be the most closely associated with Cultivation, and Adhesion and Tension with Honor. This still brings up some interesting thoughts about what this could mean for Truthwatchers. Like Bondsmiths, Truthwatchers are a key support Order - So far, what we know of the Bondsmiths' abilities seem to be providing support for other Radiants Following this idea, it would also seem to fit with the few details that we know about the Bondsmiths from Words of Radiance. According to their epigraph, they were the generals of the Radiants - leadership, but also support. From this, we can infer that by their placement on the chart, Truthwatchers are also a powerful support Order (although, the "powerful" part may just be wishful thinking about Renarin - wouldn't it be awesome if the character that everyone thought was weak turned out to be one of the most powerful?). Another thing that may hint at this is The key here is that it's not something that directly relates to Renarin - more so to Adolin. Therefore, it could be reasoned that this is a kind of "support" ability. It doesn't really mean anything and it's just how the diagram happened to be laid out - This is unlikely, considering it's Brandon we're dealing with here. Everything means something. E V E R Y T H I N G. As Kelsier would say, there's always another secret. Please tell me what you guys think, and if you have any theories about why the Truthwatchers are in the center of the Double Eye - I would love to read them!
  12. So at the end of WoR almost everyone in the fandom started noting Renarin was acting "kinda shady", and then chapters 8 and 9 of Oathbringer removed the "kinda" and turned the "shady" dial to 11 and snapped it off. The conclusion that a lot of people seem to have reached is that Glys isn't what she says she is or that Renarin is going to turn evil/is already evil. An equal amount of much the same people would also tell you that such a plot twist would be very predictable and kinda lame. So here I am to offer some thoughts I had when thinking about this while procrastinating at work First let me set up where I'm coming from: - We know the bondspren are at least a mixture of Honor and Cultivation's Investiture. With some (Honorspren) leaning almost fully one way while other (Cultivationspren) lean the other. But I don't think we have a definitive WoB about if any of Odium's power is also mixed in there. -Seeing the future is said to be "of the Voidbringers". We know from previous books that facets of myth and legend on various shardworlds are in-fact hints or obtuse references to the natures or powers of the Shards that inhabit or shaped that world. So I am pretty confident in predicting seeing what is to come is associated with the Voidbringers in the cultures of Roshar because its something Voidspren or Odium himself are very good at. And hey look! It's also what the Truthwatchers pretty much do all the time! -For all their being personifications of concepts, spren do show a bit of an ability to make choices as long as those choices don't contradict their concepts. Like the dichotomy of truth and lies between the Honorspren and the Cryptics are part of their nature, but the fact that this has grown into a big racial conflict in Shadesmar between them as implied by Jasnah is probably not. The two people most likely chose to express their rivalry this way instead of it being something hard-coded in them as Honor/Lie-spren. So from that base I would like to posit that Truthwatchers bind a type of spren (Prophesyspren?) that are actually mostly (or even entirely) of Odium, explaining why they are associated with Future Sight. But who in ages past turned against their master and joined the forces of humanity in the conflict between the 3 Shards. Maybe they foresaw something that rankled them if Odium won, maybe their nature as beings who conceptualize "seeing what is to come" meant that they are afraid of losing their entire purpose if Odium wins (a Cosmere where he has shattered the other 15 and rules unopposed would probably be very dull and predictable to a race of Seers). For whatever reason they turned against Odium and joined team Roshar, then when the rest of the bondspren started to imitate the Honorblades and give birth to Surgebinders they followed suit. That explains Renarin acting super weird around mentions of Odium's Champion and the general distance and obscurity attributed to the Truthwatchers in history: its not just that they are aloof and cagey because they get to know deep terrible secrets by their very nature, it *is* partially that, but also that as technically Voidspren they have an innate knowledge of Odium and his designs. The aloofness also probably comes from the fact that the other orders and other spren still probably didn't trust them, and who knows what the general populace would have done if they had known. It also kinda explains why Renarin DOESN'T TALK TO ANYONE ABOUT ANYTHING. His father has pledged to destroy Odium and is bonded to Honor's own Sliver, what is someone who was already a wallflower before this all started supposed to do? Go up to Dalinar and say "Hey dad, just wanted to tell you all this super secret stuff I know from my bond with a fragment of the Lord of Hate, but its cool she says she's on our side!"? So yeah, Renarin, Glys, the rest of her kind and the order of the Truthwatchers. I believe they are ultimately good guys, they just have an INCREDIBLY complicated backstory that explains why they are so, well *shady*, about it all.
  13. With all the discussions about the Surgebinding charts that are the Front and Back leaf drawings, I have a burning question. Why are the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers so set apart in both charts. Early on I thought this was artistic backdrops, but knowing what we do now, here are some observations and questions: In the "Physical Chart" (I like the Theory), The two orders are inverted in the otherwise symmetrical pattern They are also the only orders that have the creatures' jaws and claws making any interaction with the sphere glyphs. The rest are all on the outer shells, no overlap. in the "Cognitive Chart", the two orders are very exclusive. They are obviously the only ones inside the store infused with stormlight. They are also the only ones with lightning (blue and purple) coming to or from them an are intentionally interwoven. They also notibly have no other surge connections to them, which is unlike the other 8. The other orders are all outside this in the misty clouds. My soft theory (because there is no other proof yet) is that the other orders are not seen by the spren in Shadesmar. This is why they lose their memories today when they bond a human, and have to slowly rebuild it. Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers get fully cognizant spren. Also there is some interplay of power or investiture available between these that is too vague for me to speculate details. Any good thoughts?
  14. On my current reread, among other things I am paying special attention to Renarin's development. And I have a theory what topic the Truthwatchers' ideals may be about. Different levels would have different wordings of course, but I would phrase the main topic as: "I will attempt a worthy task even if it seems impossible or will likely lead to my death" Several reasons for this: 1. It fits Renarin's behavior Actually many sharders have complained that Renarin tries to help even when he seems to have no chance of doing so. They say he is really a hindrance because he ties other resources / fighters that have to protect him. (Though in the case of the duel, I think he actually did some good by tying up one of the opponents for a while.) 2. Analogy to Lightweavers' 'ideal' Lightweavers speak truths to keep them 'real' in the middle of all their illusions; they need the self-awareness. WoR Ch.57 (Epigraph about Lightweavers) If Renarin's visions are really part of his Truthwatching - and I think they are - then seeing dark possible futures (like his final vision in WoR: "We will all die") can paralyze the seer by making him hopeless. He needs the strength of mind not to succumb to that. (Yes, during the vision he is paralyzed. That does not mean he cannot work to prevent that dark future after the vision is over.) So, in both cases, the ideal has something to do with counterbalancing the side effects of the surgebindings. 3. Chronology of events To be more concise, l’ll temporarily subscribe to the methods of the assuredness movement: In what follows I’ll state my theory as fact. That just makes for shorter sentences. The following scene likely drew Glys to Renarin. (Just like Kaladin protecting young spearmen attracted Syl.) WoK Ch. 13 Ten Heartbeats When first bonding his blade, he didn’t yet hear screams, but as a proto-Radiant he still didn’t feel right about it, just like Dalinar when he had bonded the madman’s Blade. WoR Ch. 14 Ironstance So, he grimaced when first touching it, but during the bonding he trained with Zahel (including jumping down buildings – all that happened during the bonding so he must have held the Blade! Never had realized that before.) He relaxedly talked fabrials with Kaladin, maybe even took rides with Adolin and laughed with Amaram. (It’s not quite clear whether the bonding was finished before that ride.) With all due respect for Renarin, I cannot see him hearing those screams all that time. Though the completion of the bond isn’t explicitly mentioned until later, it must have happened before Adolin’s plateau run to help Jakamav: Teft tells Adolin about Renarin summoning his blade: WoR Ch. 26 The Feather No way he experiences the same in that moment as during the whole bonding week. Now Renarin freezes. Now he hears the screams. Between bonding his Blade and this plateau run Renarin has made a step in his Surgebinding: he swore his second oath. "I will attempt a worthy task even if it seems impossible or will likely lead to my death" His trying to do something about that attacked bridge is him trying to be true to that oath. Same later with the duel. Of course, the latter also fits with what he did on the hunt, driven by the love for his family. The oath is not the whole reason, but it's part of it. The oath fits the character - as was to be expected. [On a side note: did anyone notice his quick grasp of Shardblade commands? The bonding was completed just a few days ago and after Szeth’s visit Renarin’s Shardblade lies ‘discarded at his feet like a piece of refuse’!]
  15. WARNING: I AM NOT SURE IF I BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING THEORY IS TRUE, BUT I WILL TRY TO CONVINCE YOU ANYWAY WARNING2: THIS IS NOT A "RENARIN WILL GO EVIL" THEORY, EVEN IF IT MAY LOOK LIKE THAT You must be wondering the meaning of the title of this thread, and your minds must be wandering throught dark places, as did mine as I conjoined the pieces of this Frankenstein's Monster of a theory. I'd post the fragments that lead me to these (mis)conclusions, but my e-book has been misbeheaving. 1.What we know: 1.1: The Hierocracy suppressed knowledge from before the Recreance. 1.2: They tried to conquer the world with a justification scarily similar to Dalinar's commands to unify. 1.3: They were very secretive, esoterical and claimed to have the power of prophecy. 1.4: Many of the precepts of modern vorinism were created in opposition to the Hierocracy. Now, things get interesting: 1.5: We know an order of Radiants did not forswear, but entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the others. 1.6: The Truthwatchers were secretive, esoteric, and did not readily share knowledge or speak of their actions. 1.7: If Renarin is any indication, the Truthwatchers have the power of prophecy. 1.8: While we know Renarin couldn't have progressed to whatever is the truthwatcher equivalent of a second oath knight until some time between bonding his shardblade and entering the big duel, we have no idea how long he has been bond to Glys. 2.What this thread is about: To put it simply, the Truthwatchers were the order that didn't forswear, instead slowly fading from view and taking over the church. After the Sunmaker defeated the Hierocracy, they disappeared again and infiltrated the Ardency and various governments and secret societies around Roshar, becoming a conspiracy within other conspiracies. Knowing the son of one of the most important men in Roshar was compatible with the order, they contacted him in secret, perhaps while Adolin and Dalinar were at Shinovar, promising to heal his epilepsy if he joined them and became their sleeper agent, to act as an intermediary with the new orders if so they wished. Of course, Renarin is neither a traitor nor an idiot, and the Truthwatchers knew that. So they taught him, told him part of their goals, let him know they weren't telling all the truth, and allowed him to refuse to cooperate if he wanted. They convinced him he was protecting his family and gaining the opportunity to follow his dreams, but at the same time could walk away if he wanted. And they never told him enough for him to be a threat, and he knew it. So, after they decided he would prove loyal enough, they secretely sent him a spren as part of his initiation. A spren who would give him forbidden powers, leave him in fear, drive him apart from others. A spren that, after remembering enough, will send Renarin back to them, where he will be welcomed by those who truly understand him, and he will become one of them. A Hierocrate. EDIT: changed the last paragraph, since it was supposed to be about possible future events. EDIT2:I think I may have convinced myself. Still unsure. EDIT3: 3.Amaram Strikes Back: One glaring flaw in this thery I forgot to adress is how the Sons of Honor, who want to bring back the Hierocracy, are connected to the Truthwatchers. Since the SoH seem horribly misguided, I'd say they aren't truly directly descended from the Hierocracy, but a group of people frustrated with modern vorinism who want to bring back the "good old days", and are most likely being manipulated by Odium. The true Hierocrates are just shaking their heads in disbelief and trying to find a way to use them to their purposes, whatever are they.
  16. 1. How are Truthwatchers able to see the future, if their surges are Progression (The Surge of Growth and Healing) and Illumination (The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms)? Is it related to their spren or ideals or something else entirely (Cultivation influence maybe)? 2. It seems that Truthwatchers can predict future just based on present circumstances without considering the drastic changes that may immediately happen. Renarin Kholin predicted that everyone would die due to the clash of Everstorm and Highstorm, but Shallan is able to use the portal at the end and prevented this from happening. This might be the reason for them to be silent and secretive since being vocal about their prediction could bring about some changes which may cause the prediction to fail. Are there any holes/faults in this theory? I'm new to 17th shard, so if there has already been a discussion on these topics, please post that thread. Thanks!
  17. This will probably be a long theory, and it might not make sense at the beginning, but just bear with me. Okay, here is my theory: Surgebinding is of both Honor and Cultivation, but some orders are primarily related to Honor and some are primarily related to Cultivation. Okay, so what do we know about Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers? For one thing, we know Dalinar is a Bondsmith. Renarin is a Truthwatcher. (Ym is as well, but we're not talking about him.) Alright, so refer to the Ten Essences Chart and you'll find out that Ishar's (and therefore Dalinar's) divine attributes are Pious and Guiding. This makes sense, as Dalinar is strict about obeying the Alethi Codes of War and following the Knights Radiant (Pious) and makes decisions and tries to set an example for the other Highprinces (Guiding). Paliah's (and therefore Renarin's) divine attributes are Learned and Giving. Again, this makes sense, as Renarin is always eager to learn (Learned) and helps others out (Giving). Looking at the Essences Chart, you will also notice that Ishar's soulcasting properties are meat and flesh, while Paliah's are wood, plants, and moss. It seems as if Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are kind of opposite orders, especially since they are the two orders directly across from each other in the middle of the Knights Radiant Orders Table: Yeah, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are basically opposites. So what? Ah, excellent question. And that's where we get deep into this matter. What happens to Dalinar that happens to nobody else? During the Highstorms, he has visions of the past. Visions of Honor, if I may add. And what happens to Renarin that happens to nobody else? During the Highstorms, he has visions... of the future. And which shard does Honor say is good at foretelling of the future? If that weren't enough proof, let's look at Truthwatcher's and Bondsmith's Surges. Truthwatchers have the Surges of Progression and Illumination. Progression has to deal with healing and growing, and, coincidentally, the word "Cultivation" has to deal with growing plants. Illumination has to deal with sight and seeing, two things that Cultivation is apparently good at. On the other hand, Bondsmiths have the Surges of Adhesion and Tension. Adhesion has the ability to bond things together, which is Honor's Intent. We don't exactly know what Tension does, but if this theory is true, it will likely have something to deal with bonds. If we split the KR chart into two halves (top and bottom), you get five orders of Honor-based Surgebinders and five orders of Cultivation-based Surgebinders. Another one of the Honor-based Surges, Gravitation, deals with altering an object's Spiritual bond towards the ground. The fourth (and last) of the "Honor-Surges" would be Cohesion, which, again, we know little about. Since we don't know Cultivation's Intent, it is difficult to prove whether the other two Cultivation-Surges (Abrasion and Transformation) are related to Cultivation. There's also Division and Transportation, the two Surges split between Honor and Cultivation. My personal theory with the Surge of Division is that it is similar to how Ruin and Preservation worked together to create life on Scadrial. Instead of Ruin and Preservation, though, Honor and Cultivation worked together to do something normally against their (or at least Honor's) Intent. Also, as stated above, the soulcasting materials corresponding with Paliah and Truthwatchers are wood, plants, and moss, which are all related to the meaning of the word Cultivation. Honor likely created the creatures of Roshar; Cultivation created the plants. If you need any more proof, look at the KR Orders Table above, and look at the border. The top half of the border (Honor's) is red, and has only male Heralds. The bottom half (Cultivation's) is blue, and has only female Heralds. Coincidence? I don't think so... So if this is true, what does it mean? I think that it means that some of the Radiantspren (and perhaps regular spren) are more of Honor, and some are more of Cultivation. This explains why Wyndle thinks of the Nightwatcher as his mother, and why Syl identifies herself with Honor and the Stormfather. I also wonder what this means for the other 20 magic systems of Roshar. Could Voidbinding be a combination of Cultivation and Odium? In that case, what magic system is caused by Honor and Odium? So, does this theory seem sound? And what does this mean for our knowledge of the Cosmere?
  18. "Theory" may be a little ambitious for this, but here goes: The two Truthwatchers we have seen thus far, Ym and Renarin, both wear glasses. This cannot be a coincidence. I think that this may have something to do with the Truthwatchers' use of the Illumination Surge. We have already seen quite a bit about how the Lightweavers use it. My belief is that Orders do not use the same Surges the same way. Obviously, the Lightweavers weave light to create illusions which we have seen are manipulations of the truth, lies made true. The Truthwatchers' name suggests truth will also be given significance by them. They also watch the truth. Watching could well relate to this impairment of vision shared. Maybe this correlation means that the Truthwatchers will, because of their impaired vision, literally view the world in a different way, maybe somehow enhanced or changed by their use of Illumination. Maybe they see more truths in the world through this. The Order's Divine Attributes are Learning and Giving. Maybe because of the truths they see in the world, they have a vast store of knowledge. We know from Words of Radiance (the in-world one) that the Order is secretive and esoteric. Maybe they are waiting until they can reveal all of this truth they have been watching in their special way. Sorry if this makes little sense. It is really more of a bunch of random thoughts from everyone's favorite Pilgrim. Thoughts? Additional speculation?
  19. Early in WoR Shallan and Jasnah have a discussion about the Hierocracy having edited old works to suit themselves meaning that there's no "reliable" texts around. That I remember, no specific example is raised in the rest of the book - I guess because the characters don't yet know enough. When Shallan finally gets to read the in-world "words of radiance" book the section on Truthwatcher says very little. Suspiciously little - even if this particular Order had been very secretive there should have been rumours. I think the Hierocracy had a particular reason to heavily edit the Truthwatchers: the priests of the Hierocracy claimed to be able to have visions of the future, like actual Truthwatchers. The downfall of the Hierocracy lead to anyone claiming to be able to see the future to be regarded as extremely suspect - I doubt this was the case before since otherwise the Hierocracy wouldn't have claimed that ability. If Renarin is any guide, the Truthwatchers did in fact have a particular ability to see the future. So, assuming that is correct then the Hierocracy would fear any (accurate) info on the Truthwatchers being recorded. Rather than make up something they probably just removed it - simpler and more reliable (since all books throughout the world have to be changed in a reasonably consistent way). So, a boring simple theory: the Hierocracy claimed to have the similar abilities to the Truthwatchers and so heavily edited the texts on them. PS Yes I'm assuming that Renarin wrote the countdown messages (or his Spren did). He did write a countdown of zero at the end of the book after all. But I dont remember any abilities of his being confirmed and there's been surprisingly little discussion that I can see on them.
  20. I'm not that great at theorizing or anything like that, but I do have a question about the role of Truthwatchers within the Knights Radiant and how Renarin fits into it. Throughout the book, I knew something was off about him, and of course we finally find out that it's because he's a Knights Radiant, also. What I wanted to know is how Renarin knew that Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin were meeting in a somewhat secluded area to discuss their next moves and what might happen. Renarin just pops out, and when they ask him what he can do, he just replies "I see." Could that mean that Renarin can see anyone who is/has the potential to be a Radiant? I saw something a while ago in a signed book that someone had, and Brandon had written "Renarin sees spren no one else can" or something like that. Could it mean that he (and other Truthwatchers) can see bonded spren and their Radiants? If so, he probably knew the whole time that both Kaladin and Shallan were Radiant, and had probably been keeping an eye on them to see how things developed (maybe that's partly why he was so desperate to work in Bridge Four under Kaladin's leadership?). If he can seek and point out other Radiants, he could become very important in the next book(s) as Danilar continues to try to find more Radiants. Rather than waiting for Radiants to come to him, Dalinar would have a powerful tool that will allow him to actively seek out others to fill the Orders. I don't know if this possibility has been brought up before, and if it has, sorry! But when Renarin simply explained that he "sees," it made me wonder what exactly he's seeing. Has that been answered yet?