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Found 78 results

  1. So I don't know if this is even a theory, as it doesn't really have consequences that might be proven right or wrong, but rather an interpretation that I really like of the Diagram storyline as presented. Matter of fact, I was wondering how many people defaulted to this interpetation, and I was just slow not getting it right away, or if there's anything in the text that counters it. We are told the Diagram is difficult to interpet because Taravangian was so smart on that faithful day that he had to trascend "linear note taking" and instead had to bunch information together in what became the Diagram. What I think makes more sense, is instead that Taravangian's plan was to become Odium since that day, the diagram had to be so complex to hide his endgame from both other people and dumb Taravangian himself. He needed to create the cult related to the Diagram to reach his goal, but its full understading was unattainable for them by design, if super smart Taravangian had wanted the Diagram to be understandable, he would have made it so, but hiding the endgame is vital for the plan itself to work.
  2. I’m going to sketch out this theory and maybe get around to providing quotes and stuff to substantiate it later. And I don’t love time travel mechanics. Just too messy. So I’m not thrilled with where the evidence is leading me. But a couple of thoughts, all paraphrased: * Cultivation to TOdium: “you’ve been on this path for a long time” - ie before you asked for a boon from me - “I just tried to help you learn to wield the power with honor.” This is in response to TOdium shocked that she would try something so audacious like putting him in position to because Odium - which would absolutely include the Diagram. In other words, the Diagram was NOT part of her boon+curse. I take this to be explicit in the text - that T’s path to TOdium-hood started long before Cultivation got involved directly, and that that path kicked off with the Diagram * Speaking of the Diagram, Taravangian: “thinking that the Diagram was about anything more than saving Kharbranth was dangerous.” Dangerous why? I think we know the answer especially when we reach T’s last days: “he cried over the lies [about trying to make utilitarian sacrifices to save a seed of humanity] he told Dalinar - because the truth was much more shameful”. Yeah the truth - namely that you were doing all this with the goal of usurping Odium - is pretty shameful. Finally, there’s that moment that I’m struggling to recall in detail where he says “you don’t understand, Odium sets things up so that if he loses, he still wins.” Does that sound like the Odium we know? L O L. Our Odium loses without winning left and right. Our Odium is almost a beautiful loser: he prioritizes sending a message about doing things his way over actually winning. (This was during his last conversation with Dalinar.) You know who sets things up so that if he loses, he wins? In fact you might say “the only way to agree to a deal is to make sure that no matter the outcome you are satisfied”? That level of craftiness I’ve only seen from T - especially as TOdium, when he makes fun of Odium’s foolishness and says this! One more related piece of evidence: the epigraphs in WoR: ”You must become King. Of Everything.” 1) Taravangian was still able to achieve his primary goal without being king of more than Jah Keved 2) Everything contains quite a bit more than Roshar! But it is consistent with trying to save the entire Cosmere from incompetent shards, and waging a “war for everything”. “You must destroy the Parshendi if this one starts to explore their powers it will form a bridge” Why destroy the Parshendi if they might form a bridge between the Singers and the Listeners? That would be bad for Odium if he loses the Singers as an ally! But it would be GOOD for TOdium who clearly does not want whatever is happening between Leshwi, Venli, Thude, Rlain (+Renarin perhaps), Sja-Anat, and their associated followers - very bridge-like. At a minimum, the Diagram contains information about Odium with Taravangian as the vessel. But I would go so far as to say that the Diagram was a vision Taravangian got of himself - not Rayse Odium - from the future, and that Cultivation was certainly not involved.
  3. I noticed some continuity errors in the SLA5 prologue read by Brandon. 1. Several times in the previous 4 books, Dalinar thinks to himself how Gavilar considered Taravangian a friend, there’s a heavy implication that they spent a great deal of time together. But Gavilar in the prologue was surprised to see Taravangian at their meeting, it was the first time he attended, and he did not know him well. 2. In the same vein, Tarvangian mentions in one of the previous books how knowledge of Gavilars visions helped inform the diagram- but given the events of the prologue- there’s no way Tarvangian could have had access to those visions or any knowledge of them. 3. Aesudan, in Oathbringer, tells Elhokar that she was finishing his fathers work. They he had found a spren, but couldn’t figure out how to bond it. That’s never mentioned in the prologue. Void light and anti-void light are, but there’s no mention of finding, having or attempting to bond with a void spren. In essence 1 and 2 reveal that the relationship between Gavilar and Taravangian was deeper than the prologue indicated. I’d report this directly to Brandon’s team, but I do not know how to contact them. I can find the exact passages quotes given a bit of time to find them.
  4. After re-reading Oathbringer, I started wondering about the old magics. So I went and looked it up on the coppermind where I found that Lift's bane isn't listed. That made me think some more. It seems that the boon/bane effect is mostly physical with the Nightwatcher. She tried to convince Dalinar to choose a physical boon, either an object or physical enhancement. In addition the boon and bane can be completely unrelated: see Av's father who got a heap of good cloth in exchange for seeing the world upside down. The three times we have seen Cultivation step in, the boon/bane seems more cognitive/spiritual. More important they seem to be the same thing. The boon IS the bane, with a little added flair from Cultivation to influence the world without anyone knowing. To get what you want, you have to take all of the result. Like the old adage. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you eat it, you also have to lose the cake and potentially add a pound. Think of Dalinar: Boon - Loss of Spiritual whispers and guilt for the murder he had committed. -Cognitive loss Bane - Loss of all memories relating to Evi -Cognitive loss Cultivation's meddling: Allowing Dalinar to grow strong enough to resist the call of the Thrill and being used by Odium Now, the boon could not exist without the bane. If Dalinar could remember her death, the boon would be ineffective. If Dalinar could remember her enough to ask about her death or, really, have any meaningful conversation with other about her, her death would be brought up eventually. So Dalinar could not remember her and grow the way he needed to become the "good" Dalinar of present day. So it was all boon, just with side effects. Next, Taravangian: Boon - The intelligence to keep Kharbranth intact while Rayse was Odium and the capacity to become the Shard's new Vessel -Cognitive enhancement Bane - The inability to have both intelligence and compassion at the same time -Cognitive enhancement Cultivation's meddling - All of it really. Mostly replacing a dangerous enemy with a potentially more amenable one. Note: The boon and bane descriptions come from the coppermind oldmagic article. I would disagree a bit there. Taravangian needed BOTH intelligence and compassion to be able to do what he asked which was "Capacity. Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind." So, Cultivation gave him the capacity he needed: mental capacity and emotional capacity. She even made it inverse, which seems wise. It is very had to strategically plan knowing you will cause thousands of deaths and even more suffering if you are also being compassionate. At the same time, you need have time to be compassionate to be able to remember why you are doing what you are doing and relate to the people you are saving. You really cannot have both at once. If you really want to keep the boon/bane mentality, then I would say the bane was the unpredictability of the effects. But even then, someone smart enough to make the Diagram would figure out the pattern and design a way to work around the compassionate side. Like Dalinar, seems like all boon, just really annoying side effects. Now for Lift: Boon - Produce Lifelight from mass; using Lifelight to Surgebind, being partially stuck with the Cognitive Real, vision manipulation Bane - unknown Cultivation's meddling - Experimentation of creating her own kind of Radiant Note: As with Taravangian's section, I pull the descritions of boons and banes from the coppermind. That list of boons seems pretty long, doesn't it. Not really Cultivation or the Nightwatcher's MO, giving so many boons but no obvious banes. So lets theorize a bit here. Producing Lifelight from mass and using to surge bind are not part of the boon, but what Cultivation was trying to obscure with the granting of the boon. The boon it self was "she was suppose to stay the same and the world was supposed to change around her". So Cultivation uses this ask to change her spirit web to use Lifelight which pulls her partially into the cognitive realm. This in turn grounds her mind in how she sees herself ( ie not more than ten) cognitively like spren are controlled by perception. So she keeps her mental age, but her physical body continues to age. (Though I kinda like the idea of her being more like Returned, where when she hits a certain age, she will stop aging). Being partly in the cognitive realm allows her to interact with it more, hence touching of spren and vision manipulation. But there are what could be called banes or side-effects. Imagine being a child in a grown woman's body. Imagine being on the brink malnutrition constantly. Definitely down sides. But Cultivation doesn't have a storm. How else could she have gotten light to her budding Radiant? I went on this particular tangent because of a WOB: Note that he mentions boons and curses from the Nightwatcher. In reference to Lift, it is just a boon. Now this is some what proven to be an omission as in a different WOB he mentions both a boon and a curse: But I wonder if someone could actually use BOTH lights, or if the process of changing the spirit web makes that impossible or at least very unlikely. Note that he also calls it Stormlight here even though we now know it is Lifelight. Final supporting WOB: So, to sum up. Cultivation doesn't really give boons/banes. She sees a request that she can do a single cognitive/spiritual manipulation that will provide an effect at least correlated to the request but also serves to influence the world the way she wants.
  5. So, Cultivation, posing as the Nightwatcher, "blessed" Taravangian with the ability to 1: partially outthink Rayse. 2: bear Odium. What if Cultivation is still in control over Taravangian's smart/emotional days? Could she make him suddenly intelligent for a few days, thereby removing his Connection to the Shard of Odium? This would be a great failsafe for Cultivation if Taravodium's plans run, well, contrary to her own. Taravodium will likely consider this and attempt to remove his Connection to Cultivation, but it's possible this would make him revert to his original, pre- Nightwatcher visit personality and severe him from Odium anyway. In any case, I believe Cultivation's plans stretch much further than we might have thought.
  6. Cultivation doesn't have a goal or an endgame. She wants to guide everyone and everything to be the best version of themselves. What does "best" mean here? Whatever the subject thinks it does. The alethi (as a group) think the best version of themselves have to be the best warriors. Taravangian thinks his best version is to have the capacity to stop what is coming. His stated goal is not to stop it....just to have the capacity to do so. Seems to me that the vessel of Odium has the capacity to stop what odium is doing. He's new, and the shardic intent won't begin to consume him for centuries, maybe millenia. And yet. Will he stop it? Taravangian's arc is over. Taravangian got what he wanted. TOdium's arc has just begun and we have no idea what He will do next.
  7. Hey all. I recently started a reread of Stormlight Archive and decided I wanted to pay some more attention to the chapter headings this time. At the start of Chapter 3 "City of bells" there's the death rattle "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears." and I had the thought that it would be a very Sanderson thing to do to have that city be Kharbranth given it's the chapter where it gets introduced. So I started thinking about what sorts of cool scenes could involve "a man" watching their Kharbranth crumble into dust. Now we know there's a very important character who has a very strong emotional connection to Kharbranth who is currently the vessel of Odium. You guessed it, the burden obsessed, murderous and calculating Taravangian. Now, one of Taravangians' first thoughts upon ascending was how he could save everyone in the cosmere. But we as readers also know in the long run that's a lost cause and he will inevitably give into his shardic intent and want to start destroying things. So how could Taravangian save the cosmere from a unleashed Odium? Well, he could trap himself on Roshar and do everything possible to throw away the key. Things like forcing the entire population to leave, destroying the landmasses, hurtling it into space, etc. Knowing Taravangian he would probably cry as he did that, but also knowing Taravangian he would also 100% do it if he thought it was the best path forward (which imo it very well might be). He very well might even start with Kharbranth. It's entirely possible that this outcome is exactly how Cultivation intended to deal with Odium and why she setup Taravangian to be the new vessel and trained him afterwards. Imo, the idea of Roshar being locked off from the rest of the cosmere in the future makes a decent chunk of sense as well. It could explain why we don't see investiture from Roshar saturating everywhere in what glimpses of the cosmere's future we have. I've also got some other thoughts in spoiler below Secret Project Spoilers Also, because I want to get it down before I forget. I have a sneaking suspicion we're gonna see some shuffling around as to who the antagonists are/the nature of the conflict for the back 5 will be. I could imagine trying to deal with a Taravangian losing the plot/convince them they're losing the plot and them going off into the cosmere to save everyone is a horrendous idea being a compelling plot (mixed in with other things of course). I could then imagine at least one other shard (either honour, Cultivation or both) not exactly being happy with the idea of sealing Odium on Roshar + throwing away the key and what that would entail. From there, protagonists could be working with an increasingly unreliable and destructive Todium who might even potentially flip back into antagonist mode at the end due to the shardic influence. I mean, how do you escalate from fighting one shard with the backing of another? Well you then fight 2 shards with the backing of another. How do you escalate from there? Well what if you made the one backing you incredibly unreliable and increasingly a detriment to your cause. How could you possibly escalate from that? Well you could just flat out fight 3 shards at once. Well, there you go. I hope you all enjoy my midnight crackpot theories!
  8. Hi. So I'm wondering if all of Cultivation's machinations to get Taravangian to ascend are primarily motivated by revenge against Rayse, or if it is also part of a longer conflict with Hoid.
  9. So everyone is expecting some sort of juicy plot reveal from gavilar's prologue. I mean it has to right? We have been building towards this for 4 books, slowly getting more and more info about this guy and we will finally know what he was thinking from his own point of view. But that would undermine the structure of a Brandon Sanderson book. His books almost always have big plot twists and mystery, even for how the magic system works. A wave of knowledge hits us at the end, appropriately called 'Sanderlanche'. Gavilar is too connected to crucial things. Even a small lore reveal might end up being a lot. For ex, he is connected to thaidakar and ghostblood, he knows about anti light, he probably knows ba ado mishram, he knew the heralds somehow, taravangian met him that day??, Whether or not he actually died, how to go to braize, axindweth and what her deal is. So many things that could be revealed in the prologue of the book. All those things are probably crucial to the ending. So I think Brandon will choose to be vague about most of this stuff. Also Brandon releases preview chapters before hand, so we really can't give too much away, as the fandom will have months to decode the chapters. So what will we see then? I think we will get very interesting revelations that might not effect the plot of the fifth book, instead it will recontextualize the major plot beats from the previous books. These reveals will serve to show more of Gavilar's character 1) Jasnah: We will see that Gavilar knew very well that Jasnah was trying to kill Aesudan that night. How does he know? Through Liss. We know that Liss has a agreement with Jasnah about if someone else tried to hire Liss against The kholin family. I think Gavilar already had the same agreement with liss and hence Liss tells him. Liss does this because 'a repeat customer' is more valuable to her.(a quote from the book). Gavilar is the type of guy who would be a repeat customer. How would he know Liss? Through Nale. We know Nale is abnormally interested in szeth. And szeth was Lisa's servant for some reason. Or it could be that nale found out about szeth through Liss, both ways work. We will also find out Gavilar was slowly grooming Jasnah to join Sons of Honor. This is why he suddenly he suddenly shows a scholarly side to him to Jasnah the months before his death. This works on Jasnah only because her childhood madness was a clear shame to Gavilar and she probably deep down wants his love more than anyone else. His respect for her mind, something she has built her identity around( being rational at all times) would only reinforce this. He may have also caused her mission to 'protect the family' discreetly. Maybe through the ghostbloods? We know Jasnah and ghostbloods are fighting for some unspecified reason 2) Amaram: He is trying to marry off Jasnah and Amaram to strengthen both of their connections to his organisation. But Amaram is a pawn. I am sure Gavilar knows who Nale is atleast( even if not Resteres/Kalak). Amaram doesn't. Because Gavilar isn't very religious, he doesn't care about the heralds coming back. He only cares about causing the desolation to make himself a god or a legend. So he lies to Amaram 3)Aesudan: She will be revealed to be a envisager( a splinter group of sons of honor) who defected to Gavilar because of ambition. She knew about his unmade.( I also won't be surprised if Gavilar told Liss to go ahead with the assassination anyway, as she was ambitious) I always found it wierd that Aesudan and Hesina were related (WoB). Aesudan is part darkeye, Hesina is part lighteye. They sing the same song once. Hesina doesn't seem to mind kal being a radiant even though she knows about spren a lot so u would think she is religious. She also suggests kal to become a stormwarden and even kal gets scared, because its very similar to telling the future. Envisage means 'to tell the future'. Teft even theorizes about envisagers in RoW, but it's left unanswered. Maybe these connections are important 4) Axindweth: In Row flashback, Axindweth writes in a letter that Gavilar's own feruchemist spotted her. I don't believe this at all because Axindweth was a part of Gavilar's party to parshendi expeditionto begin with. She is the only character to have explicit rings on her hand, it would be wierd to reveal another feruchemist in that party. Let's remember, Gavilar wants the desolation to happen. He has no real need to stop Axindweth from helping Ulim and Venli. Unless, she is working with Gavilar and stopped at his orders because of Nale. Nale did seem to somehow know that Ulim was in the palace that night. This is why Gav tells her to immediately stop bringing more voispren. He is secretly helping the fused come back. How does Gavilar know about Axindweth? Through Ghostbloods of course. He probably was a member himself, betrayed them and also stole Axindweth 5) Parshendi: He wants to fight with the Parshendi because of their unique dawnsinging magic that Venli saw. 6) Navani: They might confirm that he has Breaths( as he sensed her). He might also be shown to be intensely jealous of Dalinar for having Navani's affection, since navani does think that he still cares for her. 7) Taravangian: This prediction is interesting to me. Taravangian has found out about the coming desolation from dova in kharbhranth. This is pre-diagram 'the maybe dull' taravangian. He is understandably scared and decides to try to form a coalition with Alethkar, the warlord Gavilar. But something snaps inside Gavilar and he goes full megalomaniac. He laughs at taravangian's face, calling him stupid, and attacking his low self esteem. He dresses down taravangian and would insinuate that Tara's purpose is to be Gav's humble follower because of his lack of capacity. He will talk about the visions( huge news to people who dont read the wobs) and how he was chosen by the almighty. Tara would be humiliated to tears. Later, after Gav's death, Tara will set out for the nightwatcher for capacity and create the diagram. I won't be surprised if we find out that Tara sees gav in Dalinar and doesn't want to lose because of that. 8) A big hint that gav found a way to live These are the reveals that I actually expect for the prologue. Most of these are charcter moments that just change the view of the other characters. And also we will see the birth of the diagram maybe So it will be satisfying
  10. FYI: I have only read Stormlight Archive, Warbreaker and Mistborn Era 1 and Secret History. This theory is based on what I know about hoid till now. Anyone who has read the other cosmere works, please correct me where I am wrong. Hoid usually is very content with he does. He seems to be in control most of times, nothing really surprises him anymore. He is one of the oldest beings in the cosmere and one of the most knowledgeable. His persona is of a chaotic trickster with no allegiance to anyone. And that is very much true to his real personality. But Roshar is where we have seen him be most... human. Rosharans surprise Wit a lot. For ex he is flabbergasted about something when he sees young Shallan at the marketplace ( we have no idea why. Not important to the theory, just mentioned it) He is at a genuine loss for words when shallan hugs him years later. I don't think he expected for shallan to be affectionate towards him. He is again shocked when Kaladin asks him for a story, saying that 'no one has ever asked that'. Also hoid is at his most wholesome with Shallan and Kaladin, giving them very heartfelt therapy- story sessions.'Accept the pain, don't think you deserve it' and 'You will be warm again' can make me tear up. He is very helpful this time for protecting the planet( instead of Mistborn where he accelerates the danger). He also has a romantic interest in Jasnah. He is also very open about his belief in a god. The main theme is that hoid is developing actual human connections with the Rosharans, something he has never had before. This will end only in tragedy. Because taravangian Brandon has confirmed that Taravangian completely ' hornswoggled' hoid in the epilogue. Hoid did feel true terror there. He did lose some of his memories. Hoid, for the first time, has been actually hurt in a confrontation. Brandon also said that Hoid will find out what happened in the lead up to the contest. (Prolly with the metalminds) This dude has not felt fear in maybe 7000 years, who says Hoid won't overreact? Because hoid was really motivated in having rayse- odium bound to the system. And todium has proven himself to be far superior of a threat already. There is also a lot of foreshadowing that Hoid will betray Roshar. When he talks to Dalinar, he says 'i will burn this world down to get what I want, even with tears'. He repeatedly tells shallan and Jasnah not to trust people. At the end of RoW, Dalinar has to choose between trusting odium and wit I think we will see Hoid betray the people of Roshar in a cruel,stone-cold way just to make sure todium stays bound. I don't know exactly how, but it will happen. The good guys will have to fix what he did too and some damage could be irreparable. He will definitely lose all his friends and this time, he will have genuine sadness and tears. This time? Yes, because hoid has definitely betrayed Roshar before. During the first desolation. We know he knew the heralds (as midius). Isn't it interesting that stonewards are associated with topaz and they swear an oath to be where they are needed? Two things common with hoid? Also doesn't rayse seem just a little too angry when he reads 'cephandrius' name in the contract. Like he really, really hates hoid for some reason. Is it because all of this has happened before, like this? Hoid bring up the idea of the oathpact and the heralds. Because whose plan was this exactly? Who the heralds bring up the idea of eternal torture themselves. No this seems cruel enough to be hood's idea He was meant to be the the tenth herald, the stoneward-ish herald, but the moment the oathpact was created, his business was done and he left the planet, leaving the Rosharans to panic. Taln steps up for the job and the rest his history. I think in this case Hoid knew that taln was going to pick his place. But what he did was still a betrayal. He just doesn't care much This time, he will care What do you guys think?
  11. There's been a few "sorting the shards into quadrants" "sorting the shards into quadrants and trying to find matching Dawnshards" and similar posts recently, and while I absolutely love reading those, this post is here for less linear thoughts about Adonalsium and the missing shards, but missing shards nonetheless. Let's stop with the preambling and get to what I want to get to: ODIUM and what it means for ADONALSIUM. Let's start by looking at one of the (imho) coolest quote of all the cosmere: Emphasis mine. Source: Refresher: this is from one of the letters in reply to Hoid, so probably from either a shard or another old, cosmere-aware figure like Frost. So, for the sake of argument, let's assume what they write can be treated as fact. This quote has stuck with me, among others because it makes Odium such an interesting foe and such a cool idea: The hatred of a God, without all the rest of God. I want to talk about this quote some more. Let's reiterate three things: 1. Adonalisum was shattered into 16 pieces. As far as we know, there's no Debris or anything like that left. They're 16 pieces of a whole. Those could have been split up differently, but weren't. It's not a little god with 1/16th of all of Adonalsiums properties, but with ALL of 1 of 16 properties (or 2, in Harmonys case). 2. Rayse Odium calls himself Passion and sais that that's what they are. Passion. Emotion. He even tells Dalinar that he's the only one of the gods that understands human emotion, that knows it. 3. Despite this, everyone else more or less agrees that Odium is first and foremost Hatred. The way he is described in text and in universe is as seething, hating, hot and burning and hateful. Now, what am I trying to say: What does this mean for Adonalsium? Well, one of multiple things. That depends on what the last two shards are. We know almost nothing about Adonalsium, yet, sadly. But here's my thoughts, which I hope to make understandable: I really hope atleast one of the last two shards is an emotion. Something like "Love" is a common guess, but even just something like "Care" or "Charity" (which the ancient greeks would argue was one of multiple forms of love anyway). Seriously. Because if there isn't another Emotion-Shard, then Rayse/Passion is right. In that it isn't just Hate, but all emotions/passions. Or rather, all the emotions/passions Adonalsium was capable of. It's why I refer to it as Passion in the title of this post. Let's look at the quote about it again: Virtues. Not "other emotions." Now, we can argue that Virtues are an emotional thing, but I think the semantics are clear. The letter doesn't say "without the other emotions." or, the very clear thing many religions irl share: "His Love" There's a few conclusion to be drawn from this, and I will list those in a second, but I want to first look at the shards again to underline this. Virtues: Honor, Autonomy, Ambition, Mercy, Valor, (Wisdom, Prudence) Divine Properties: Endowment, Dominion, Devotion, maybe Cultivation? Forces of Creation/Nature: Preservation, Ruin, maybe Cultivation? Uh, no idea: Whimsy, Invention. To be clear: This isn't supposed to be a sorting or anything like that. I don't think this is how the shards are grouped or even if they are grouped. The point of this list is to drive home the point that none of these are emotions. There sure are some Virtues, especially Honor and Mercy and Wisdom stand out as ones that sound like they would give Odium much needed context. But, again, none of these are emotions. (Is bravery an emotion? I wouldn't say so. Semantics, maybe) This leads me to a few possible conclusions: 1: One of the two so far unknown shards is also about emotions. Especially "Love" or one of its derivatives would of course fit a God the way we on earth imagine it well, and would make a good counter to Odium. I know there aren't clear pairs, but another shard of emotion would mean Adonalsium had atleast two different distinct emotions or emotional states. Because otherwise... 2a: (Odium is the only Emotion Shard and Rayse is lying about Odium = Passion) Adonalsium was a deeply hateful being. If it was shattered into 16 Aspects of its being, and only one of them is emotion, and that is pure Odium, Adonalsium must have been hateful in the same fulfilling, allencompassing way that Odium is. If Odium is "Just Adonalsiums Hatred without The Rest" and none of "The Rest" are emotions, then Adonalsium felt basically the same way that Odium does. Hate with a hint of Anger for a rare change. Even the better version of this isn't much better: 2b: (Odium is the only Emotion Shard and Rayse is right about Odium = Passion) Adonalsium was a deeply hateful being anyway. If Odium is the only emotion shard, and is not "God's own Divine Hatred" but rather "God's own Divine complex emotions", then well, Adonalsiums complex emotions must still have been hugely dominated by Hate. 3: Odium is all emotion that Adonalsium could feel and just got the way it is after the Shattering. Maybe "God's Divine Passions/Emotions" is up to interpretation the way Ruin could be slow decay or active Catastrophes, and it got interpreted into Odium. Then again, it sounds like Odium went on his killing spree pretty quickly after the Shattering, so it's not like he started out loving and jolly and became bitter and hateful with lots of time. (4: Adonalisum wasn't a being in the same way that we humans are, its/their emotional state is not really understandable with human understanding of emotion. We don't even know if Adonalsium had a person/vessel/personality/anything, for all we know it could have been a machine or mechanism or a force of nature more than an entity. Does a poisonous plant feel hate when it kills you for eating it? Does a storm, or a robot that was tasked to protect something when it hurts those that try to interfere with its task? Maybe Adonalsium didn't feel much, so much of what it was was Creation, and to argue about Adonalsiums Emotional landscape is futile? The only things we can assume to know are that It experienced bravery, it showed mercy, it cultivated, preserved, and destroyed things, it dominated and was devoted, it invented, it was whimsical, it wanted to survive, it was ambitious, it was autonomous, it endowed things, and: It felt Hate/it hated.) I personally hope for the former for the sake of our heroes and everyone in the cosmere, but let's continue the thoughts based on 2a and 2b for now, because there's some thought that might make these ones more likely. Whether or not Rayse was right is kind of irrelevant. Whether or not Adonalsium felt only Odium or Passion, if that 16th of Adonalsium that was/is Passion was the way back then it is now, well, Adonalsiums emotional landscape was a bad one. Even with the "context", as in "the virtues that gave it context", it doesn't paint the nices picture of the Cosmere's old God. If it's Wisdom keeping Adonalsiums Hate in check then that sounds like they came to the conclusions it's not smart to destroy everything. If it's Honor, then Adonalsiums is sparing lives because of some Oaths or feeling of duty. Cool, I guess. Not kindness, though. Mercy is the biggest candidate for a counterweight, but that to me has bully-vibes still. "I want to kill you tbh but I'm sparing you because I'm so mercyfull" isn't exactly kind either, is it? If that's what Adonalsium was right, then no wonder that a group of people came to conclusion it had to be destroyed. (And if Rayse was an evil leaning person before the Shattering, then no wonder he wanted that Shard in particular. Sounds like one of the few they'd be sure to exist afterwards.) Long, long post. If you read this far, thanks for sticking with it. I'm intrigued if other people thing my argument is conclusive at all, an what your thoughts about this are. Will we get another Emotion Shard? Will we not, and Adonalsium was very hateful? Is it futile to imagine Adonalsiums Emotions the way neurotypical Human Emotions work? Or another possible answer?
  12. I'd like to share my favorite theory that no longer seems possible. So, when I started reading stormlight archives, my brother shared several ideas he had about the series. He avoided spoilers, since he hates them, but since he was three books ahead of me at the start, he had a few ideas about the future of the series. My favorite one that he came up with involved Taravangian's diagram. Since Taravangian isn't able to remember what his super brilliant self (brilliant T) was thinking the day he wrote the diagram, there's always been a lot of speculation about what exactly he was planning on that day. Based on the translations a certain king of Karbranth and his people were able to make, it seemed to be pushing him to try and assume control of Roshar to put himself into the best position to negotiate with Odium. Now, like Dalinar, I think Taravangian's pride and desire to prove himself the best and smartest ruler influenced the not-so-brilliant Tarangian's actions, but this isn't about that. What interests me is what was his brilliant self really planning. This theory is probably not relevant any longer, since Taravangian is now Odium, but what if brilliant T was trying to maneuver his future self in a way that created an opening to defeat Odium? Not put him in a position to negotiate with him, but actually defeat him? However, there's not much to support this idea, other than the fact that it would be a truly spectacular plot twist. It seems similar to a detective style story where the protagonist was the killer the entire time, which is part of why I like it. Only in this case, it's the past self tricking the future self, knowing that the future self can't be trusted. It would have made for a great reveal, if present Taravangian realized he'd been tricked the entire time by his past self, and deciding what he'd do going forward. And again, I realize the theory is almost certainly debunked, now that Taravangian is Odium and no longer following the diagram. Unless he thinks on what his past brilliant self wrote him at some point in the next book and makes a decision based on that, it seems impossible. So, what are some of your favorite theories/ideas that didn't end up happening?
  13. When I read RoW the first time, the biggest thing that stuck out to me was that Sanderson's character work on Taravangian was masterful. Halfway through the book, Sanderson had set up a single choice for Taravangian, a choice that would define his character, a choice where he could have legitimately become the redeemed hero of the entire series but instead became its darkest villain. Taravangian, in contrast to Dalinar, has a fatal flaw, and it's more than just "end justifies the means". It was so subtle though, and I haven't heard anyone else comment on it, so I wanted to pull it out here: The choice I'm talking about is this one here, from Taravangian's final interlude: It's the choice to tell Dalinar. At this point, Taravangian realized that he was wrong. Humanity isn't absolutely doomed. There is a way to defeat Odium, and he keeps thinking about telling Dalinar...but he never does, always finding a different reason not to. They could have finished it together, but in the end, he resolves to do it himself, just as he had before. Let's observe the setup. Throughout every Taravangian scene is pulsing this question: "What are Taravangian's true motives?" From his 1st inerlude: From his conversations with Dalinar: You can see it here. This question. Was Taravangian a tragic hero? A man with the noblest of intentions who had done what he thought was best with the wrong information? Or has he been subtly lying even to himself, has he pushed this narrative so deeply into his subconscious because he wanted to be the hero, the one who saved everyone? Is it his self-sacrifice or self-ego that drives him? His whole conversation with Dalinar danced around this, and at the end you get a glimpse at what could have been the alternate storyline for the Stormlight Archives. Taravangian, after learning his Diagram was mistaken, lets go of his ego and surrenders his role as the hero of the story to Dalinar. He tells Dalinar of Odium's weakness to Nightblood, and Dalinar defeats Odium once and for all. Taravangian's reputation is tarnished forever by his earlier betrayal, but humanity is saved. He lives on, hated by humanity, but he earns the respect of one man, ending the series as Dalinar's closest friend, working together for the good of humanity. In the interludes, we see Taravangian himself wrestling with it. This is his conversation with Renarin: I remember thinking at this point that we were in for a Taravangian redemption arc, and I was all here for it, but Sanderson bamboozled me yet again. I believe the light flickering in the darkness was Taravangian's wavering decision to confide in Dalinar, and the deep darkness of him rejecting that is our present reality of him having become Odium. His refusal to take Renarin's hand is symbolic of his refusal to accept help from Dalinar or anyone else. He's battling against admitting his own deep flaws. And his most fatal flaw pokes its head out as he goes back and forth about going to Dalinar. Check out this sequence of moments where Taravangian thinks about talking to Dalinar. The truth that his actions reveal is in the end he is too proud. It's his fatal flaw. He can't admit he was wrong. He can't share the spotlight. He can't play second fiddle. Everything is building up for him to turn around and make the right choice in his 11th hour, but he can't do it. It's the inverse of Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer. Come face to face with the worst of himself, Dalinar took the blow head on. He acknowledged himself as a bad man, but instead of cowering away, he exposed himself to the world and took the next step forward. Taravangian, in one moment of brutal honesty, acknowledges to himself that his entire motive has been built out of justifications...but he keeps going. And he hasn't stopped.
  14. So, yesterday I finished a re-read of Rhythm of War, and then today wrapped up my annual re-watch of the Lord of the Rings film trilogy (if the username didn't clue you in, I'm a fan;) - like the books better, but enjoy the movies too). It got me thinking of Taravangian's ascension and his plans to use Odium's power to 'save everyone' and it reminded me of a quote from Tolkien's letters about what might have happened if Gandalf had been corrupted by the Ring. "Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)." A bit later, he added that "Sauron multiplied... evil, but he left good distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil." Now, Taravangian's no Gandalf (he's more like Saruman in some ways, 'his feet were on a crooked path,' though IMO the Cosmere's closest parallel to Saruman is probably actually Ishar - though that would be a topic for another post) but the way Odium!Taravangian and Ringlord!Gandalf are described makes them seem somewhat similar in motivation and action, and when you throw in Harmony's letter talking about how he most feared the combination of Odium's power and intent with a mind saner and more cunning than Rayse (who would be Sauron in this analogy)... yeah. Brrr. Not really a super insightful analogy, considering the LotR characters obviously aren't part of the Cosmere, but it did make me think of exactly how Odium's new Vessel is shaping up to be far more dangerous than the old one.
  15. TL;DR Mr. T is not a back 5 villain. He got subbed in for Rayse because Rayse got introduced earlier than originally planned and lost too much. Much like how Amaram was to die in WoR, but Brandon switched it to Torol Sadeas dying and Amaram subbed in as leader of house Sadeas for OB then died when Torol was originally going to die. I am convinced Taravangian will be killed by the end of book 5. His big feuds are with Dalinar and Szeth, neither of whom will be a huge part of the back 5. Originally it was going to be Rayse through book 5, but when Brandon decided to switch Dalinar's book to 3 instead of 5, Rayse got introduced earlier, started taking losses earlier and needed to be replaced. This reminds me of another villain substitution Brandon did in SA. Originally Amaram was going to die at the end of WoR and Torol Sadeas would die in OB. He switched it to Torol Sadeas dying in WoR and subbed Amaram in to do the things Torol Sadeas was originally going to do. Amaram even became the leader of house Sadeas, similar to Taravangian he assumed the same title and power as the person he was subbing in for. You can easily imagine Torol Sadeas doing most all the things Amaram did in OB except maybe fight Kaladin. These cases seem very similar, Torol Sadeas had failed to kill Dalinar two books in a row and was proven wrong about the voidbringer threat. He was no longer as important or threatening a villain. Amaram hadn't been as thoroughly defeated so he stayed and took over as leader of house Sadeas. Rayse lost two books in a row and it made sense to replace him with a new vessel as a greater threat.
  16. No one has drawn Taravangian and Dalinar having a discussion, and no one has drawn Taravangian clean-shaven. I decided to fix that.
  17. That thread title makes this sound more confident than I actually am, so sorry for the clickbait. My prediction is based on the following: 1) the fact that we’re dealing with T and not Rayse anymore. Rayse would try to win the “conventional” way, because winning the sneaky underhanded way wouldn’t “prove a point” as Wit said. But T is not so limited; he would see that the best way to beat Dalinar isn’t to find a better fighter than Dalinar, but to use Dalinar against himself. And what better way to do that than to force Dalinar to either lose, or kill the person in the world he feels the most responsible for? And a child no less. This much I am confident about: T is not going to use a conventional champion; he’s going to try to turn Dalinar against himself. 2) the deathrattles: And We still don’t know what these refer to, in contrast with a whole bunch of other deathrattles. I think that the first one has to refer to some pivotal/climactic moment of this arc given the way it’s written. And the second one hints what I strongly suspect for narrative reasons: TOdium wins, Dalinar loses, and we set the stage of books 6-10 investigating the nature of oaths and how to safely free Dalinar from the consequences here. What ties them together in my opinion is this choice: to kill the “suckling child” or to choose life. “The night will reign” in my reading refers to reigning across the Cosmere, rather than on Roshar specifically. 3) well I kind of specified this already: narratively it just makes sense. We know that books 6-10 focus on the Heralds, and in my reading Dalinar becomes a Cognitive Shadow just like them. The Heralds want to get out of their oathbound existence, as would Dalinar. And it just fits well for us to have a temporary resolution at the end of books 1-5 without a full resolution that would make books 6-10 disconnected. Reasons for skepticism: a) I mean, I hope I’m wrong. It would be extremely depressing for Dalinar to be consigned to this fate, even for just 10 years. And to wait something on the order of that long in real life until Brandon even begins showing us how he’ll be rescued in books 6-10 is gonna be brutal. trying to use the deathrattles to support a prediction is extremely dicey, especially when there’s a whole book 5 worth of material that we still don’t know about. c) How would Gavinor be a “willing” champion? Dalinar in RoW ch. 112: To answer this specific point, Gavinor seems like a pretty traumatized kid. It’s plausible to me that if offered the “gift of silence”, like Moash got, that he would take it. Is this a stretch? Very much so. But that’s better than the prediction that, say, Adolin would be willing to be TOdium’s champion, which is just ridiculous. Anyway I’m putting this out there both to be able to claim credit on the off chance that I’m right, and to pressure-test the prediction, so fire away!
  18. Welcome to the pantheon!
  19. I've seen several discussions on Taravangian's ascension. Who foresaw what, what it implies going forward... that type of thing, but I haven't seen anyone incorporate into these musings what I find to be a hugely significant detail in how it happened. A quote from RoW Chapter 113: So immediately before his ascension, Taravangain died and his connection to his physical realm body was snapped. Severed. Nothing* in the narrative going forward implies that this connection was re-established like what happened with Szeth or Zahel's description of a "Type Two Invested entity" in chapter 15. Taravangain ascended to shard godhood as as cognitive shadow without a connection to the physical realm. Which probably has huge implications on his new status as Odium. To explore what these implications are, we happen to already have a precedent of a cognitive shadow ascending to become a shard bearer from Secret History. (Part 6, Chapter 4) Throughout the rest of Secret History, Kelsier/Preservation was pretty darn impotent whenever he tried to directly match Ruin and Ruin ran amuck, with the only thing holding him back being all that missing atium. Conclusion: Taravagain ascended as a Cognitive Shadow which severely hamstrings him, and might add additional constraints making it difficult to leave Roshar beyond just the contract with Dalinar. *Edit: I just remembered that only one body was found in T's room afterwords, and it was ruined by nightblood, and presumed to be T's when it was actually Rayse's. So the fact that his body wasn't found in the room has some implications against the theory that T ascended as a CS.
  20. odium

    The books say that Odium was hurt in his past battles with shards. Does that mean Odium is now renewed/reborn since there is now a "new" one?
  21. Hello! After reading Rhythm of War and thinking about the Cosmere as a whole, I came up with a crazy theory that had shocked me to the core, and I can't find anything that disproves this theory, so I want to share it here and get other's opinions of this. My theory has to do with Trell, who we learn the existance of in Mistborn Era 2, and connecting it with Stormlight Archive. First, my theory is based on two assumptions: 1) That Mistborn Era 2 takes place after the first 5 books of the Stormlight Archive. I saw a fan made image on Instagram a while ago that showed this was the case. Has new information changed this? I haven't seen any updated timelines for the books. 2) That Dalian will loose in the upcoming battle against Odium and become a pawn of Todium (Taravangian with Odium's power). My theory is that Trell is Dalinar working on behalf of Todium. Pg 1193 of RoW "So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presides over by broken gods." We see that Todium looks out into the Cosmere and sees all the corrupt leaders and the other shards/gods and sees that it needs to be made right. Later on that page he says "and now, Taravangian was going to save them all." Todium clearly has plans not only for Roshar, but for all of the cosmere to make things "right". It sounds like he's going along the lines of Odium's original plan of being the only god and possibly bringing peace and security to the cosmere. Pg 385 of Shadows of Self "The governor was planning to speak to the people of the city. Bleeder hadn't succeeded in killing him yet, and Wax suspected he knew why. Because when she murdered him, she wanted an audience." Here we see Bleeder, who is being used by Trell, trying to take out a major political leader on Scadrial. Clearly Trell wants the "corrupt" leaders killed in front of the public to try and win over the hearts and minds of the people to them. If Bleeder had succeeded there is likely more to Trell's plan to put a better leader in place. Perhaps even someone who is a minion of Trell who would bring the right sort of leadership to a major area of Scadrial. Pg 435 of Shadows of Self (there are a few lines here I'm not going to quote them all) but it confirms that the metal is not one that Harmony knows. So it is a metal from another world, from another god. Let's call this metal Taravangium. (Not Trellium, though it was Trell, aka Dalinar, who delivered this metal to Scadrial on behalf of Todium.) (formerly this metal was Raysium) We also know (I don't have a quote for this) that shards can sense the presence of other shards. If Odium was free of Roshar and working in the Scadrial system as Trell, Harmony would know. But, we do know that powerful humans (and other beings) can operate on a planet without the shard noticing. Pg 535 of RoW in the text at the start of the chapter (which we can assume is a letter from Harmony to Hoid) "Regardless, please make yourself known to me when you travel my lands. It is distressing that you think you need to move in the shadows". Dalinar, going by the name of Trell, powered by Odium, could come to Scadrial and work to recruit members to Todium's cause, and Harmony would not be able to detect him as long as he kept hidden. The final piece is from the Copppermind website, when looking up Trell, Sanderson has said that "Trell has been many things over the eons..." so why not use that name to sow some confusion. So there it is. My theory that Trell is Dalinar, working on behalf of Todium to bring peace to the cosmere and take down all those corrupt leaders and gods. Now what does this mean for the future of the cosmere...
  22. After watching the livestream, one of the things that stuck out to me most was one of Brandon's comments on how Odium's position will change now that the power is in a new vessel. "Odium will have interesting, different relationships with a lot of different, interesting people in the next book." Obviously, we knew this was going to happen, but I thought it would be interesting to really start to dig into which people will be effected by the switch in vessels, and how their relationship and roles will change. The Fused The Fused are probably the biggest group that's going to experience the change. They get their powers directly from Odium, and as his greatest resources, they'll be the first ones Taravangian can use for his plans. I think Taravangian is going to clean house a bit, getting rid of any Fused that are no longer useful, similar to what El did with Leizan, since many have been alive for far too long, and "there's nothing sadder than a tool that has outlived it's purpose". The ones that remain would be like El, who are probably ones that would find the change in management revitalizing, and willing to serve this new Odium to rule the humans and end this war in a way that doesn't involve total destruction. The Dustbringers The Dustbringers in general have been built up as loyal to the Diagram, and their loyalty to the coalition has been tenuous at best. I think it would be a waste for that to just been thrown away now that the Diagram has disbanded, since nothing really came of it yet. The Dustbringers are still Radiants, and we don't know what their position within the coalition and new order of Knights Radiant is, but it's likely that they will have some sort of alligiance to the new Odium. That being said, I expect there to be some Dustbringers who don't ally with Odium, including Ral-na. Moash/Vyre Vyre is a pretty major case in this shift, and was the subject of the question asked in the livestream in the first place. His Connection to Odium is unique, and if he's Connected to the shard and not the vessel, it will likely be maintained. I don't think Taravangian will want to get rid of him, even without his eyesight he's a useful tool, and it's possible only humans can use the honorblade. How this affects Moash's character arc, we can only speculate. Probably the biggest change however, is how Moash responds to the new vessel, considering their goals are no longer in alignment. Moash wants vengeance on humans and their total extermination, Taravangian wants to "save everyone". He'll probably keep Moash in the dark long enough for Moash to remain a useful tool, but I wonder how Moash would react when it becomes clear that Odium now wants to rule the humans, not destroy them (if he survives that long, anyway). Another possibility, is that Taravangian's new influence on the Odium shard leaks over to Moash, providing him a direction for his passions aside from just mass extermination. The Unmade It's hard to say much here, since we don't know a lot about the different unmade. I think he'll have a much better relationship with Sja-Anat than Rayse did, however. The Iri This is the one I'm the most interested in, and the more I think about it the worse it gets. We know that the Iri have already allied themselves with Odium's forces, and will likely continue to be in service to Taravangian. We know that Taravangian wants to extend his influence past Roshar. We also know that the Iri are a population of humans that originate from beyond Roshar and Ashyn, and will eventually migrate to a new world. Altogether, this could have some scary implications, not just for the future of Stormlight, but the Cosmere as a whole.
  23. I wasn't sure if this should go here or in general, but I opted for here to be safe, mods can move it if I chose the wrong place. I think we may have started to see the fulfillment of one of of the Way of Kings death rattles here at the end of Rhythm of War Specifically the chapter 11 epigraph: I think Taravangian might be the Broken One. Everything that he's done weighs on his soul as he himself admits, and now he's a god. He's reigning over the Fused. What this might mean for Cultivation's fate I don't know.
  24. So now we know that Nightblood is big and bad enough to destroy a vessel. Now, while Szeth doesn't know that's what happened, Big T does know, and must be aware that NB is one of the only entities on Roshar of which he needs to be actively scared. He's also acutely aware of how dangerous Szeth is, both from a mental stability standpoint and a pure lethality sttandpoint. With all that in mind, I can't imagine he's not going to make a play for NB - what if Dalinar chooses Szeth as his champion? Mr T can't take the risk of NB being in play and must be formulating a plan to rid Szeth of the sword. Now imagine that OdiVargo's champion is wielding Nightblood. We've seen it straight up Annihilate heavily invested entities and chip an honorblade. Scary stuff. Thoughts?
  25. Kaladin declares that he can't save everyone, and it's one of the most heartwarming moments in the book. Ironically, this leads to him getting the ability to save more people. Todd declares that he's going to save everyone, and it's one of the most chilling lines in the book. Ironically, his plans for "saving everyone" would lead to mass death. I know it's been said before that Mr. T is the anti-Windrunner, but here it's practically text.