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Found 12 results

  1. So, I was rereading Oathbringer to get ready for RoW. And this came up. When Stormfather is talking about the Heralds and how they left one of there own behind when they abandoned the Oathpact, Dalinar immediately says Taln like he knew which one it was specifically. But its only a few paragraphs later where he realizes the Madman calling himself Taln really was him. So how did he know which one it was? I feel like it must have been something in WoR I missed or was it something else? As far as I can tell nothing about what happened to Taln is known or in the scripture so how did Dalinar immediately know? Am I forgetting something aboutfrom WoR or a WoB? Thanks for any clarification
  2. What exactly are we supposed to expect of the Heralds in the coming books? I would love to see Taln come to deal with his madness in someway, be reunited with his honorblade and lead men against the fused as he once did, but I doubt that would actually happen. So what can we expect of the Heralds instead? Are they so much of a wildcard that they will hinder Dalinar's quest? Will they help out and assist the Radants? Will they turn and support Odium? (is it even possible for a Herald to do this?) Maybe they'll just exist and not do much, but I highly doubt that. Will Moash/Vyre go around and pick them off one by one? I hope this isn't the case, but who knows. I'm eager to know what you all think and if we have any hints to base our guesses on.
  3. So, I was looking back through WOB's on the Stormlight Archive, and I ran into one where he said that Taln's Honorblade that he had at the epilogue for tWoK was different then the blade that Dalinar had in WoR. I looked back at the descriptions, tWoK Epilogue: "It was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike." and then in WoR it described the blade as wide and cleaver shaped. The WOB basically said that somehow the honorblade was swapped along the way from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains. I looked back through old posts... but there were over 250 pages to go through, and I gave up at about page 5. I am pretty sure something has already been said on this, but I would like to hear your thoughts on who now has Taln's honorblade. I think it is pretty safe to assume that it is one of the many secret organizations on Roshar that has it, Hoid, or Odium/Voidbringers. I think Hoid is a possibility simply because, well, it is hoid, also, he was at the gates waiting for Taln when he arrived at Kholinar, what hoid would do with an honorblade? No idea, but I think it is certainly possible. I think it is nearly impossible for Odium/Voidbringers to have it (unless they got it from a secret organization) simply because this was before the Everstorm. That leaves the secret organizations. From what I gathered from various shard posts is that there are 9 different organizations working at Roshar, one of which is confirmed to be the 17th Shard. The only other ones that we know much of note about is the Diagram, the Sons of Honor, the Skybreakers, the Envisagers, and the Ghostbloods. Now lets lower that number throught process of elimantion. It is unlikely to be Suns of Honor since this group includes Amaram and tried to steal the Shardblade that had been swapped with the Honorblade, and it seems unlikely that they would bother with swapping a blade out for the Honorblade if they were just going to steal it back later. It is also unlikely that the Skybreakers would steal it, simply because they are all about upholding the law, and it would take a very large loophole to steal a Highprince's property, as well as the fact that they don't really need an Honorblade for any purpose. This leaves as known options for the having the honorblade The Diagram, the Envisagers, or the Ghostbloods, and the 17th Shard, as well as Hoid. Of course, there is always the possibility that one of the other 3 secret organizations has it, and personally I think that is the most likely. I would like to hear everybody's thoughts, and if anybody has a link to an older, similar thread, please post it below. I just realized this really isn't the right place to post theories... would a moderator be so kind as to move it to the cosmere discussion section?
  4. From the album General SA Art

    Stuff I drew for Oathbringer countdown =) (via) Viewing separately: Kholin babies: Kaladin & ... [OB spoilers] Young Dalinar at age 15-20 (Warning: 6 pieces)
  5. What follows is my current theory on how the 10 Heralds became the 10 fool's through the coarse of the Desolations. I will update this post as it evolves. I will try to provide links to all WOB. Quotes will come from the kindle versions of the books via cut and paste. I will list book, chapter, and location number. Bold will be my emphasis. Italics will be possible contradictory evidence. Number 18 here From Reddit Fantasy Bookclub Q&A with Brandon Sanderson Feb 28th, 2011 We will start with this quote which shows us all Heralds were in WOK. First, the Desolations occurred when the Heralds were sent back to Roshar after one of them broke under the torture of Odium. Second, each Herald is associated with a primary and secondary Divine Attribute. (Possibly primary from Honor, Secondary from Cultivation?) Third, the torture does not happen in the physical realm. It occurs in either the cognitive, or more likely the spiritual realm. Fourth, when Odium breaks a Herald, he is literally breaking part of that Heralds spiritual connection to the Divine Attribute. Fifth, Odium's goal was to break all the Heralds and bring about the the Everstorm, allowing him to shatter Honor and Cultivation. Sixth, breaking the Divine Attributes shifted them towards something more compatible with Odium and less compatible with Honor. This resulted in the attributes associated with the 10 Fool's. Number 19 in this WOB, says each is uniquely insane. NOTE: One of the biggliest issues with this theory is not knowing the 10 Fools attributes. Two Fools are named. Two have attributes. Cabine - He acts like a child although he is an adult. TWOK chapter 37, page 593, location 10668 Eshu - He speaks of things he does not understand in front of those who do. WOR chapter 71, page 593, location 16877 One issue I have here is that the 2 Heralds I would link these two too are both female. Paliah and Battar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) We have a WOB on this. Not a confirmation, but along those lines. 2) Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. Leading Nale. Just. Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. Builder Talenel. Dependable. Resourceful Ishar. Pious. Guiding 3) Since Odium was attempting to break the Heralds focus on their Divine Attribute, the torture most likely took place in the spiritual realm. The spren would probably know something if it took place in the cognitive realm. One thing pointing to the cognitive realm though is the fact that Taln appeared covered in condensation much like a shardblade. 4) By breaking the Herald, Odium shifted their Primary attribute to closer align with his shard and align less with Honors. This usually resulted in an almost inversion of the attribute. SPECIFICALLY I THINK ONLY THE PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE WAS BROKEN/TWISTED. Below I will show what I think the attribute shifted to after the Devine attribute. Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. (Submission) Leading Nale. Just. (Arbitrary)(Judgement) Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. (Destructive) Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. (Weak-willed) Builder Talenel. Dependable. (Erratic) Resourceful Ishar. Pious. (Traitorous) Guiding These are based off of what we have seen or heard in the books so far. These are not perfect words, but the 17th shard manymind will probably come up with better. There are some subtle indications that only 9 of the 10 fool's have a strong history or mythology. Here is one concerning Lyft and pancakes. I think I subconsciously connected Lyft's silly quest to eat all 10 Pancakes with the 10 fool's. Research could not find a direct correlation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jezrien gives up on protecting humanity personally, submits to the Will of the group, and sacrifices Talenel to uphold the entire oathpact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nale shifts from Just- working within the accepted standards of right and wrong to Arbitrary- following the rule of law without regards to morality.....he goes straight lawful evil. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 Judgement not Justice. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shalash is pretty clear with her running around destroying art, and significantly art that depicts her and other heralds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kalak is in no way resolute when Jezrien meets him. He is in fact very weak willed, confessing that he cannot go back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Talenel (if it really is him) comes back a broken man, highly erratic and unable to perform his duties as the Herald of War. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ishar formed the Knights Radiant originally, he led the Bondsmiths. He was also the one who promulgated the traitorous idea that 1 Herald could support the Oathpact. From Edgedancer: And And ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5) We know there were not literally 99 desolation. I suspect there were 9. One each time Odium broke a Herald. Then the next time that Herald would not be tortured as hard so that about her would break first. Nine also being the number of Odium I believe would work well with this. After the Oathpact was discarded, Odium let humanity rewrite Roshar's history and religion in preparation for the Final Desolation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6) The corruption of the 9 Heralds weakened Honor, but the Knights Radiant provided some support, until the Day of Requience when they abandoned all their oaths. Honor shattered shortly after. I have to go back and find some more quotes and WOB to fully support some of this, but I will edit them in as I find them.
  6. So, I, for one, have always been very interested in the prelude to tWoK. I think I know why now. Recently, I have been copying down all of the death-rattles out of tWoK. (I know there is a list on the Coppermind, but I am still doing this). The first one I read that made me curious, was this one: "Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn." -The Way of Kings, chapter 8 "And they shall burn, as we once did..." When I first read that, I immediately came up with a theory. The heralds talk through death-rattles. Then I read this one: "The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me!" -The Way of Kings, chapter 54 And I thought, well, this is obviously Talenel. So at lest one herald talks through death-rattles. Most of them are rather depressing, so it makes sense, considering their life-styles. Well, 3,000 years before. (This is a theory with very little information behind it, so I'm working with what I've got). Slightly off-topic, here are some other death-rattles that I have thought were very interesting. And my thoughts on some of them. "Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?" -The Way of Kings, chapter 2 "I'm dying, aren't I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shinning in a black sky." -The Way of Kings, chapter 4 "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the broken one reigns." -The Way of Kings, chapter 11 So, the shards of Adonalsium. I'm guessing 'the broken one' is referring to Odium. (Ohhh, I like this one). "He must pick it up, the fallen title!" The Tower, the crown, the spear!" -The Way of Kings, chapter 53 So, this is before the chapter when Bridge Four goes back to save Dalinar and his army. The Tower, is obviously referring to The Tower, the crown, Dalinar, (or possibly Elokar, but more likely Dalinar) and the spear, Kaladin. I think the 'He must pick it up, the fallen title!' is referring to Kaladin and the Knights Radiant, as that is the chapter when he says the second ideal of the Windrunners. So, that's all I really have on the subject right now, but if I get any more information, I'll definitely post it.
  7. What We Know: Brandon, for some unknown reason, refuses to acknowledge this 'Taln' as the Herald Talenelat. He continually refers to him as "the man who calls himself Taln..." This 'Taln' does, however, display certain physical characteristics that have been associated with descriptions of the Heralds before. Namely, he has "dark skin," and speaks "perfect Alethi," without any "hint of an accent." He also catches darts at hyper-speed... He only speaks perfect Alethi in his first appearance by the gates of Kholinar. His accent changes to something like gibberish when Elhokar and Dalinar are 'interrogating' him. Further proof that something strange is going on is his apparent inability to immediately know who he is, as demonstrated by his hesitation ("Who am I? I... I am Talenel'Elin, Stonesinew..."). (I'm pretty sure this happens somewhere else, but I can't remember where, at the moment.) Theories: Here's a compilation of some of the theories I've seen regarding the dual identity of this character: He's the same Taln, but he's been broken over 4500 years of constant torture. Seems to imply that Brandon is just trolling us with his description, which seems highly unlikely to me considering the strange inconsistencies mentioned above. He's someone else (likely a Herald overcome with remorse) who went to the Nightwatcher and asked her to release Taln. The way she 'fulfilled' his wish was by placing Taln's mind in his body, thereby 'releasing' him. This seems plausible; the only issue I have with it is that it seems that just because we don't know the limitations of the Old Magic, we ascribe any unexplained occurrence to the Nightwatcher... Similar to the above, but removing the Nightwatcher aspect. Maybe he's just a Herald overcome by grief, who has developed a multiple personality syndrome as a way to cope. He could be an Aimian impersonating the Herald Talenelat, though that does not explain how he has the memories of being tortured on Braize or knows so much about the role of the Heralds. This is a little far-fetched, but, now that I think about it, he could just be a really good actor that is impersonating Taln... The current Comere-connecting theories are that he's either a kandra, Forgery, or Hemalurgy was involved. (BTW, if we're ruling in Scadrial Investiture, Allomancy could just as easily be an explanation for his lightning-fast reflexes...) My Theory: There is a chance that this has been said before, considering how long the books have been out for, although I did search for it and couldn't find this specific theory anywhere... If it is somewhere, hopefully I'll add something new to the discussion or provoke some new thoughts. Here goes: Could it be that the some form of the Heralds' minds are held in their Blades? Being that the Honorblades are a large part of what makes a Herald a Herald, that seems to make sense to me. Taking this a little further, it could be that the Heralds are tortured on Braize, not only until they break, but until they actually die. At least physically. Their minds live on in the Honorblades, which then return to Roshar and are bonded by the bodies which will eventually become the new Heralds. There is even a WoB (It's here, I believe) which says that they can remain on Roshar for a certain period of time before another Desolation begins. That could be a transitional phase when the bodies accustom themselves to holding the Herald's mind within them, allowing for them to be fully adjusted and ready to carry out their individual missions once the Desolation starts. This 'Taln' could simply be the body holding the Herald Talenelat, a suitable explanation for Brandon's cryptic way of referring to him. What do you guys think? (Now that I'm thinking about it, there is the issue that Brandon doesn't refer to the other Heralds we know of (Nalan and Shalash, for example) in this same obscure manner. Is there a way you can think to explain this or is my theory drowned already...)
  8. So... I was wondering why Dalinar hears att scream when summoning the blade he took from Taln in order to pin Amaram down as a liar. When the Stormfather accepts his oath on top of Urithiru he (like Kaladin and Renaren) hears the scream of the dead spren of which it is "made" from (lacking a better word). But if it realy was a honorblade Dalinar was holding it should not have that effect on him. Kaladin, after picking up Szeth's honorblade, notes that he does not hear anything and remaks on it. Is the blade Taln carried att fake, did someone swap it- if so when, and who?
  9. what if

    It's rather unnerving that Brandon refuses to call the man who showed up at the end of the Way Of Kings 'Talenel'. He talks about him "the man who calls himself Taln". One theory is that Talenel is so broken that he is not the man he was anymore. So he used to be Talenel, but that man is dead. Simple explanation, could be probable, but I am not sure Brandon actually would have gone with that. Here is some ungrounded theorising without (almost) any proof. Since this "Taln" (from now on I will simply call him Taln and the "real" Herald Talenel'Elin) thinks about constant torture and fire and his mantra is something a Herald could definitely say, then I suppose he really was in Damnation (on Braize). Since Talenel was there for 4500 years, somebody who was there with him could definitely have his words ingrained (is this good word?) in his mind. Even if he does not know the language it is spoken in (but I suppose Shardholder would know). Well, of course there could be another inhabitant of Braize, nobody said that Heralds are the only ones tortured by Odium. But Hoid seems to know him - well, I suppose he knows Heralds, but that is not what we're talking about here - and Hoid knew Rayse. So it could be him. Now, how the hell Rayse ended up in this situation? Maybe he got sick of being force of evil, maybe his mind broke from this constant hatred, maybe he couldn't cope with being responsible for so many genocides and death of his fellow Shardholders. Maybe he gave up Odium and switched with someone, then went to atone for his deeds in place of Talenel. Maybe the person he switched with was Talenel and Talenel took up Odium. Or maybe Talenel soloed him and won. Well, he already was in place which he couldn't die in, no matter the damage done to him. He was effectively immortal and even had his Honorblade! Who could stop him from going against Odium? Of course, the Oathpact and mechanism of Desolations may be grounded on him being tortured, but Talenel could have finally broken after thousand or two of torture meant for ten people and gone rampage. And killed defeated Rayse, but was forced to take his place. Or maybe someone entirely different took up Odium. But before Odium changed holders, he activated the time-trigger and the Desolation still was started eventually (remember, the start is when voidspren are released, the rest is just matter of time). The important bit is that Rayse was exposed to Heralds' Torture, broke, and was finally released to Roshar, and anything that was left in his mind was the words that Talenel repeated for thousands of years. Yeah, yeah, I know it's far fetched, but this whole thing with "Taln" is boiling my mind Disclaimer: I don't really believe that Taln is Rayse. I just thought "hey, what if... the man we thought was Herald is in fact the person who held the power which is a Big Bad?"
  10. Ok in the Prelude to TWoK Talenel (Taln, Talenelat, Talenel'Elin) dies and his honorblade vanishes, so that there are only 9 left in the circle. In Words of Radiance, doesn't Dalinar bond Talenel'Elin's honorblade? And if Dalinar DID bond the honorblade, as WoR mentions in multiple places that Dalinar had bonded "that madman's blade". Why, at the end of WoR, does the blade that Dalinar has bonded start screaming inside his head after Dalinar swears his second oath, and The Stormfather refer to the blade as a "monstrosity"?? Especially if Szeth had an honorblade, and it did not scream in Kaladin's mind.
  11. At the end of WOR, when Dalinar bonds with the Stormfather, he is told (WOR ch. 89) he must be a "Radiant with no Shards," and the Stormfather refers to the blade he has a "monstrosity." When he summons the Shardblade that he had bonded with in order to give it up, he hears screams. My problem with this is, wasn't that blade the blade that was found when Taln collapsed at the gate of Kholinar (procured by Bordin, and later left in a cave to ensnare Amaram)? Shouldn't that be an Honorblade? If so, it isn't a dead spren so it shouldn't scream when he touches it (the same way Szeth's blade doesn't scream when Kaladin holds it, see WOR ch. 87). It doesn't seem like it could be a different Shardblade that Taln got somewhere, because [speculation] when he got to Kholinar he had just manifested (he was wet, like Shardblades that are just summoned And then he collapsed and the blade didn't dissapear). So, I decided to reread the part (WOR ch. 76) where Dalinar summons the blade and explains to Amaram that he had bonded with it before having placed "the madman's Shardblade" in the cave. And wouldn't you know it: The description of the blade Dalinar has is "wider than most" and "cleaverlike." That is almost the exact opposite of the description of Taln's blade at the end of (WOK Epilogue), "long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike." Dalinar is not a liar. He thinks he bonded with "the madman's Shardblade." But, he is wrong - the blade he bonded to was some other blade. The question is, what happened to Taln's Honorblade. 1) Dalinar didn't tell the full truth to Amaram, and Dalinar does know about the Honorblade, but it is somewhere else.... Dalinar bonded with some other blade and used it to trap Amaram after obtaining the Honorblade. This seems unlikely. 2) The Honorblade was switched at some point between Kholinar and the Shattered Plains. Likely suspects: Hoid (who traveled with Bordin and Taln for the first few days before bailing) or Bordin (the servant in charge of the transporting). It would indeed be problematic for Dalinar if Bordin was disloyal, because Dalinar considers him to be a faithful servant. Thoughts?
  12. If you read through recent (and some not-so-recent) interviews, whenever the subject of man who showed up outside of Kholinar (henceforth referred to as Talenel, see below) is broached Brandon is very careful to make claims such as "you assume he is the Herald" or the like. This confused and upset me because I was very excited about reading Taln's viewpoints and speculating where his Honorblade went. Upon discussing this with some friends, we arrived at a tentative conclusion why. I do ask your apologies for this Doyalist theory. Please note full book spoilers. Brandon's insistent hedging on the subject of Talenel is to set a precedent for future appearances of Heralds. This theory has a bunch of pieces, so let's look at each part. First, we have the nature of the Heralds and their role on Roshar. The Heralds feature prominently in the second group of five books. Brandon has avoided saying too much directly about them so as to not set up expectations that will take upwards of a decade to see played out. Where they came from, how they landed their current job, what that job entailed, what they have been doing for nearly 4500 years and so on are questions that have yet been unanswered. From an in-world perspective, the Heralds are practically divine. We see now that they are single-handedly responsible for keeping the Desolations away and for the protection of the world right before. Many nations and peoples revere them in some form. Their return will see them lauded with power, accolades, and admiration. Second, we have the actual appearance of Talenel himself. He appears outside of the correct (for War, at least) capital city speaking the language perfectly. He carries a (Honor)blade that does not vanish when his concentration breaks. He appears just before the Desolation starts. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, he attracts Hoid. In his interlude (and at the end with Amaram), he speaks of many things that only a Herald could know. He refers to the other Heralds by their real names and knows how they will prepare mankind for the Desolation. Granted, he seems to have severe PTSD and thus unable to orient himself temporally (hence refering to Ishar's Knights as something to be created and having existed for several centuries). There is also the subject of the Gift. Though I cannot provide a rigorous argument, I believe this to be whatever magic is compelling him to say his mantra about the Heralds. It is a Gift to mankind, allowing the Heralds to be located and brought together even though they might still be "out of it" due to torture. And it is never Taln's because, being the stubborn soldier he is, Taln always is the last one out of Damnation. Thus he wouldn't need to explain what is going on, someone else would have been there first. I find it very hard to believe, given the wealth of evidence, that this is not Talenel, Herald of War. I admit there could be subtleties and clues that he has been switched, mind-reformatted, or what have you, but I believe there is a simpler explanation. Third, we need to examine the nature of this Desolation. It appears Odium has been playing the "long game," as it were, waiting for Roshar to wear itself out before bringing in new Voidbringers. Sure, the Heralds are around and could try to mount a defense, but given the current state it would likely be ineffective. I believe we are going to see (in the next few books) at least one person claiming to be a Herald who is in reality an agent of Odium (or similar). They do not have the somewhat constraining requirements of Talenel showing back up, since they have been around this entire time. Instead, they have to show up at Urithiru and demonstrate whatever powers. This will likely be a big plot point, and so Brandon doesn't want to make it seem odd that this new "Herald" gets skepticism when the rest didn't. As such, he has to be consistent until all ten of them make their appearances. The simplest explanation is that Talenel is exactly who he seems and Brandon is being intentionally vague for other reasons. I want to make something clear - I would love to be proven wrong about this theory. It's uncomfortably Doyalist and makes predictions that are very far away. Instead, I would like to have a good understanding of why Brandon is wishy-washy about Talenel. Unfortunately, Talenel's appearance and actions fit exactly with what we would expect (without being "too obvious") and thus finding what is "wrong" with him has proven complicated.