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Found 59 results

  1. So, many of us speculate, that BAM could become Bondsmith Spren. But this Theory goes further. Shortly, i think Ba-Ado-Mishram allready WAS Godspren and had a Bondsmith. During the False Desolation. FIrst, we know that BAM was earlier general of Odium's forces, but wasnt able to do what she did during False Desolation. Bonding with entire Race was new, not expected by anyone ability. And spren normaly dont have new abilities by themselves. Spren are gaining new abilities by Bond. Or no, they not have new abilities, more like they find new aplications for their abilities. In most cases this is ability to manifest in Physical Realm as Shardblades, and also ability to larger interaction with items, but for Powerfull Spren this can be something different. For Stormfather could be Visions, and also images, map and so on. We know also Bonding Unmade is possible, like with any other Spren. We also know killing Bondsmith Spren would have massive consequences for whole Roshar. Imprisonment could do the same. We can also assume that BAM was able to comand not only Singers, but also Voidspren. They are integral part of Odium's forces, essential for recon, as messengers, spies, or fight in the Cognitive. Maybe BAM could comand Voidspren to start bonding Singers and this was her main power as Unmade. But during False Desolation BAM had ability to provide Voidlight, exactly like Stormfather, Nightwatcher or Sibling. While Stormfather has this ability without Bondsmith, Sibling for example needet Bondsmith, at least now, with damaged Connection to Honor. BAM is even called little god. Like Godspren? So this theory goes on. There is two thousand years between Last Desolation and False Desolation. What Singers do during this time? They doesnt fight against Humans all the time. They live, eat, change forms. And research. And have songs about Forms of Power. Someone from them, some Singer Scientist came to conclusion than he can try mimic Human-Spren Bond and try to bond Unmade. And was able to do this. And I can gues who he was. It was EL. El, Fused with very, very specific behaviour. Is fascinating with Humans, so I can see why he could try mimic human-spren Bond. He also is scientist, good partner with Raboniel. He literaly experiments with his own body, by replacing carapace with metal. What metal is this? Could be Duralumin? But El is Fused. Shouldnt he be on Braise during False Desolation? I think not. Fused are locked on Braise, but probably like Heralds, they need to be killed first and be sent back. If he wasnt killed, if he hide among Singers, it is possiblity he would live on Roshar all the time between Last and False Desolation. So how all action with False Desolation goes? Radiants and Melishi are fighting against Singers and came to conclusion there is something wierd about Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram. Singers have Voidlight and Forms of Power, but Odium is still on Braize. Singers have Bondsmith now. So Melishi wants to go for BAM, even while he knows about Risk for all Roshar. Radiants strike Team assault Singers with El, and Melishi uses his Bondsmith Powers to ripp off Bond with BAM from El. He replaces his Bond with Sibling with Bond with BAM, then he summons BAM similary to what Dalinar did to Stormfather, and he puts her in perfect gemstone. El sees this, and he strikes Melishi and kills him, but is killed by Radiants companions of Melishi and is sent to Braize. Sibling is damaged but was temporarly unbonded, so damage wasnt lethal. Melishi probably wants to Bond Sibling again, but was killed. When Melishi ripps off El's Bond, El loses ability to hear Rythms (literaly the same happened to Sibling!). When El arrives on Braize suffers Odiums wrath and mistakes his lose with this. He also brings Raboniel knowledge about imprisonment spren in gemstones. This is why El is so important. Is first Odium Bondsmith, and he is the one who brings knowledge nesessery to kill Heralds. What do you think?
  2. So, there has been a lot of debate about the Recreance recently. I feel there are a few specific things we can say are very likely, however, and I'm making this post to sum those up. TL;DR: The Recreance likely occurred on a single day — or at least during a very small time period — shortly after the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram, and during or soon after the abandonment of Urithiru, which had already begun to fail before said imprisonment. The Feverstone Keep vision is accurate: Mishram's capture happened immediately before the Recreance: Moat of the Knights abandoned their oaths on the same day: Urithiru was likely "failing" before Mishram's capture (though this is not certain): References:
  3. "Honor is dead, but he lives on in the hearts of men" - I think this phrase is going to be very significant, and is related to what is wrong with humans/deadeyes post-Recreance (more specifically with how to fix it). Kalak's epigraphs reveal a lot about what is going with spren/Connection on Roshar - he talks about the mechanics of what happened to Jezrien (and the Heralds are functionally spren who remain Connected to Roshar through the Oathpact). The usual Nahel bond functions by humans giving spren conscious in exchange for power (the Connect): "The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms." - Kalak (Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War). I think this applies to spren, except pre-Recreance the spren would still have a valid Connection through Honor and would probably return to Shadesmar. However now, Kalak tells us: "I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed." So when a human breaks their oath, spren do not have a valid Connection through Honor, but they ARE connected to Mishram (as Odium is now part of Roshar), and thus remain trapped in the physical. So when Radiants sever the bond post-Recreance, the spren who usually would have Connected to Honor (keeper of oaths) instead Connect to BAM, hence their minds being trapped. Reversing this requires a version of the Nahel bond that functios according to Odium, which is what we see between Adolin and Maya. With the usual Nahel bond, humans take power from spren in exchange for their minds. Re-reading the trial scene when Maya speaks, and the exchange between her and Adolin is so similar to how Odium takes pain (Passion) from people. "Adolin...felt her pain somehow.A deep agony. And...anger?" He gives her some of his "strength" and feels a warmth deep inside: I think this works the same way it does for the Sibling - they couldn't hear Honor's tone anymore so I don't think any deadeye spren on Rohsar can. However, if they Connect with a human they can because Honor lives on in the hearts of men - as Navani proved.
  4. Am I the only one who is more excited about knowledge on what happened before the First Desolation than the Recreance? Like, yeah, 9/10 of the Knights Radiant broke their oaths and flew away from existence, but are you seriously comparing that to the Dawnsingers (presumably) giving up their spren bond in order to come to serve under Odium's wings?? What on the Almighty's storming name happened there???!?! Please tell me that I'm not alone here! Also I wanna know your theories on what happened both in the Recreance and before the True Desolstion. I can't wait to find some clues about that on book 5!!!!
  5. I was thinking about Maya and Adolin when I realized that Adolin almost certainly doesn't have the suit that matches her. What I mean is that Maya's wielder on the day Recreance probably had Shardplate and Adolin almost certainly does not have that plate. My question is whether or not that having the plate would give Adolin any sort of advantage in fighting or restoring her. Like, could he restore her more/faster if he found it? Or, pre-restoration, could he swing Maya faster or throw harder or something? Does anyone know if there's a WOB on this or something similar?
  6. Hey guys, new member here. I finished reading RoW and processing it and wanted to discuss something that picqued my interest but I saw no dicussion about (if I missed something please point me out, there were so many threads). First thing that drew my attention is how Kaladin was able to defeat the Pursuer with barely any powers, a foe that was known for taking down at least several 4th Ideal Radiants. That in itself is perhaps not that surprising, given that Kaladin is somehow special in addition to being trained to fight without powers. The second is a quote from Jasnah in the book: "Our battlefields are a careful balance of Radiant against Fused, Shardbearer against Regal, soldier against soldier." That implies that the forces of the enemy in the present are equivalent to those of Team Dalinar. A team with 50 Windrunners, some Edgedancers and a few other Radiants sprinkled in, with only Jasnah being of the 4th Ideal. But in Dalinar's visions we saw at the at least 300 Windrunners and Stonewards, all of whom are described as having Plate and Blade. We can assume that there were perhaps lots more Knights from the other orders. And those forces, apparently far greater than the current strength of Team Dalinar during the Recreance had to face Ba-Ado-Mishram and not Odium himself, giving the singers Regal forms but no Fused and thus no Surgebinders. And yet those Radiants of the past seemed to have so much trouble that they had to follow a risky gambit that Melishi proposed, with apparently disastrous consequences. What posed a challenge for them? Was the infighting (amongst the Windrunners and Skybreakers) more than that? Perhaps a civil war? Was it Honor's deterioration? Was BAM able to provide for Surges amongst her subjects? Perhaps due to connecting with the Parshmen directly? What do you think?
  7. The thing about the Recreance that bothers me the most is how they all agreed to murder their spren. These were their friends, their partners, their life companions-- and they killed them en masse. The Knights Radiant, to a man and woman, were onboard with subjecting their other halves to agonizing sort-of death, leaving their corpses on the ground to be used and abused by whoever. I mean, can you imagine Kaladin doing that to Syl? Looking her in the eye, Sylphena, then killing her? Probably while Syl was begging him to not do it? Multiply that by all of them. All of them did that, except the Skybreakers. And don't tell me Oathbringer gave us the reason. Oathbringer said that the KR were afraid their powers would destroy Roshar. Okay, fine. So don't use your powers. Or if you're Fourth Oath or below, you can just dissolve the whole partnership, no harm done. Okay, Notum implied the process was painful, but I think it must be less painful than being zombified. But they didn't do that. They killed them. So I've been thinking: what if the spren were in on it? Spren and Knights agree: their powers will destroy the world, that's bad, there should be no more Knight Radiants. Ever. And so, to make sure that no one is tempted to join in the future, the Knights publicly and theatrically turn their backs on humanity. They make their name synonymous with "traitor". No human is going to want anything to do with them thereafter. And on the spren side? The spren too want to make absolutely certain that none of their kind are ever tempted to form a nahal bond. And so they have their Knights summon them as blades, leave them in agonized undeath, drop them in the dirt to be used by murderers. It's awful, but they grimly agree it's the only way to save the world.
  8. Today I would like to make a guess about a greater Cosmere idea that Brandon is foreshadowing to us using a pivotal moment from the Stormlight Archive. The evidence I have is mainly thematic. Let's start with a quote from Khriss: Khriss is talking to Kelsier, alluding to the nature of the Shards of Adonalsium as mere men and women. People who seized power and became something more. Brandon talks broadly about the bigger themes that he is writing into the Cosmere in this article, among them being that Warbreaker is meant to foreshadow something greater: This leads me to a thought; what if the Recreance on Roshar is foreshadowing a future event when people in the Cosmere become aware of the true nature of the Shards? Now, to be clear, I am not referring to the actual action of the Knights Radiant breaking their oaths, but rather to them gaining the knowledge that would eventually break them. The Recreance was an event that doubtless had multiple causes. The Radiants learning the true nature of humans on Roshar (that Surgebinders had destroyed Ashyn, were the original Voidbringers and, according to Honor, were bound to destroy Roshar as well) was only part of what lead to the downfall of the Order as a whole. However, I believe this event is a hint towards how many people will act once it is widely known in the Cosmere that 16 people killed God and usurped his power. I can only imagine the fallout from that revelation would be destructive & immense. I think that Brandon hints at this eventuality with groups, cultures, and persons who do seem to have some sort of knowledge of Adonalsium. In certain societies, the there is a sort of cultural memory pertaining to a God that existed before the Shards. This is heavily debated, of course, but I contend that the Iriali's belief in the One, and the various mentions of The God Beyond are examples of this. Now, it's not as if this knowledge is completely unknown at our current point in the timeline. Of course all of the original Vessels know of their own origins, and we can assume that new Vessels such as Harmony have a pretty good handle of their Shards history as well. There are certain informed scholars, such as Khriss, who seem to know quite a lot. And of course there are outliers like Hoid or Frost, who have just been alive forever. My point is simply that by and large, the vast majority of people in the Cosmere are unaware of the various Shards and the origin of their power. Alright, let me wrap up the argument I've laid out here with a summary: Once we hit Space Age Cosmere (or possibly sometime earlier, depending on technological advancements) the majority of cultures will be able to rapidly communicate and share information. During this time, it will become known that the Shards of Adonalsium are just that - mortal beings who murdered God and stole his power. What happens after that is anyone's guess, but I imagine it will be chaotic. Please let me know what you think, and thank you for reading. Special thanks to Pevin-son-Kalak on Discord & @asmodeus for their help with a little bit of research I couldn't seem to find.
  9. So I think I understand the reasoning behind wanting to abolish the knights radiant. The reasons being that Honor was crazy, and saying they would destroy roshar, they lobotomized the parshmen, then found out humanity were the original voidbringers. However, is there any reason why the knights radiant wouldn't try to make a deal with their spren to stop forming bonds with humans? If they could not break there bonds without killing their spren why not make a pact saying. "After we die, you stay in shadesmar, do not bond with anymore humans." The reason I bring this up is that they are bonded and have deep relationship with their spren. I feel like the spren would potentially understand that surge bonding is dangerous, especially with Honor raving about it. Wouldn't the knights radiant would have a hard time talking about potentially killing their spren without trying to negotiate with them at all?
  10. So we know at the recreance through the vision that Dalinar see's that the Knight radiants leave their blades and plate at the fields in front of feverstone keep. But we know that there aren't hundreds upon hundreds of blades and plate in roshar so what happened to them all?!?! So what happened to them, were they recovered by the shin or taken offworld? and if they were taken offworld than why haven't we seen them in other worlds? Either this is a massive mistake or suddenly we're gonna be shocked by hundreds of shardweilding shin riders in the immediate future? Any thoughts or theories on where they might be?
  11. So for a while now I’ve been thinking about this subject, and the other day I had made a post in the Stormlight Facebook group addressing it, and it ended up being a pretty big hit there, with reactions ranging from people loving it, to thinking it’s interesting but likely misguided. So I wanted to lay this out here as well and get some more feedback on it. So ever since I listened to Stormlight Archive the second time, with the benefit of hindsight from my first listen-through, I began to wonder whether there might be potentially more to Lirin (Kaladin’s father) than meets the eye. But at first I couldn’t quite place what it was about him that seemed off about him to me, but recently, it hit me. I realized that literally every single one of Kaladin’s ideals thus far, including what his fourth one is most likely to be, namely accepting that you can’t save everyone and to not allow your failures to prevent you from doing what you can, are things that Lirin has explicitly tried to instil in Kaladin and also operates by himself. In short, Lirin almost seems to me to be a Windrunner without a Spren. The first ideal is really too broad to find anything specific, but the second and third are very explicit in that he dedicates his life to helping people whose lives are in danger, he very explicitly was put into a situation in which Roshone, a man he had every reason to despise and allow to die, had his life entirely in Lirin’s hands, and Lirin chose to do what he knew was the right thing and save his life, which is the third ideal of the Windrunners. And he also has told Kaladin on more than one occasion that he no matter how hard he tries, he can’t save everyone, and that he needs to come to terms with that inevitability, which is most likely at the very least related to the fourth Windrunner ideal. So again I say, Lirin seems to be very Windrunner-y in his philosophy, with the only real difference being the way in which he chooses to protect people, namely as a surgeon rather than a soldier. Now I don’t believe for a second that Brandon wrote his character this way accidentally; the parallels are just to explicit for that. But the question is: what does it mean? And could it possibly be hinting at something? Now, before I go any further, I just want to freely admit that I have very little confidence that this theory is correct, as there are many other explanations for this that are much simpler, but I still think it’s at least worth laying out. So, here’s my admittedly unlikely theory: what if Lirin is a former Windrunner? Specifically a Windrunner from the time of the Recreance? Now, like I said, I realize how unlikely this probably is, but I don’t think it’s completely out of the question. After the Recreance, I think it’s entirely possible that some of the disgraced Radiants may have chosen to go into exile and leave Roshar, maybe becoming worldhoppers. And we know that worldhoppers often gain a greatly extended lifespan by as yet unknown means. And the one piece of evidence I have for this is how thickly Lirin lays on the whole ‘violence is always bad; nothing good can ever come of it!’ spiel. The way he speaks of that, and his conviction, seems to me to bespeak some deep familiarity with war and conflict. And the Radiants at the time of the Recreance pretty much got the ultimate example of this by their unwitting lobotomization and subsequent enslavement of the Singer species. With the Windrunners probably being even more deeply disturbed than many other orders by virtue of how much their order was all about protecting people and doing the right thing; I happen to be in the camp of fans who suspect that the horror of realizing what they had done to the Singers probably caused many of them to consider their oaths broken. And if Lirin was one of them, I can easily imagine his guilt driving him to be a hard pacifist, which he clearly is, and changing his method of protecting people from the role of a soldier to the role of a healer. And the other somewhat intriguing thing is that Lirin had a very interesting reaction to seeing Kaladin use his Windrunner powers, namely to look horrified and dismayed, maybe because he knew first hand what those powers could potentially cause and was horrified that his son now possessed them? Again, clearly there are many other possible explanations for this, and I freely admit that even I think that most of them are probably much more likely than this one. But I will say one thing with conviction, and that is that regardless of whether he’s a former Windrunner or not, I do think that Brandon must have written his character like this for some reason. One doesn’t just overtly display pretty much the entire Windrunner philosophy (in stark contrast with 99.9% of the rest of Roshar) for no literary purpose. Like I said, the only question is what that literary purpose is in this case? Could Brandon be hinting at something more important here? What does everyone think?
  12. This may have been discussed already in another thread, but did anyone else think Jasnah's conversation with Hoid at the end of WoR was really strange, especially considering that it was barely mentioned during OB? When Jasnah Elsecalls into Shinovar, she seems pretty untroubled (or as Brandon would say, "nonplussed") to find Hoid sitting there, waiting for her. This whole conversation is very unusual, considering that everyone else in Roshar for the most part treats Wit like a foolish court jester - no one is aware of the fact that he is intelligent and important to the larger cosmere. Jasnah, however, instead of being surprised to find him there, immediately begins interrogating him, assuming that he knows important things. A couple questions arise from this. For one thing, when does Jasnah realize that Hoid/Wit is more than just a simple court jester? Does this happen before she enters Shadesmar, or does she somehow learn more about Hoid during her journey? In addition, why does she still call him Wit? I suppose it's possible that she learned more about him in Shadesmar without discovering his real name (or, well, his main alias), but this somehow seems unlikely. She apparently knows, when she exits Shadesmar, that Hoid is important and that he knows things, and yet she still doesn't know his name. We know from OB that Hoid tells Jasnah about the reason for the Recreance (or at least, he tells her a part of the story). Is this the information that Jasnah was specifically looking for from Hoid, or does she just know that he is full of cosmere knowledge in general? Her pointed question - "Tell me what you know" makes it seem like there is something in particular that she is looking for from him. In OB, Jasnah only refers to her conversation with Hoid once when speaking with Ivory, and besides that she doesn't say anything about him, or mention him to any other character. Even here, she refers to him by Wit, which suggests that she really doesn't know his name is Hoid (or Cephandrius, or something else). However, she doesn't talk about Wit at any other point in the book, or tell another character that she realizes he is important. This makes me wonder if Jasnah is possibly working with him (or else she is just her normal enigmatic self and is paranoid about telling people anything). So here is what we know: 1. Jasnah seems to realize Hoid is important when she exits Shadesmar. It is unclear if she knew this before she entered Shadesmar. 2. When she exits Shademsar, it is implied that Hoid has been looking for her, and that she has possibly been trying to evade him ("How did you find me?"). 3. There seems to be specific information she wants to get from Hoid ("Tell me what you know."). It is unclear if she realizes that he knows about the Recreance, or if he proffers that information freely. 3. Jasnah doesn't mention Hoid to anyone throughout all of OB, and her strange encounter with him in Shinovar is not brought up. I was expecting the Jasnah-Hoid meeting to be more important in OB, because it comprised the final pages of WoR. But the fact that their meeting is barely mentioned at all is even more telling, and prolongs the mystery of their interaction. What do you guys think about the situation with Jasnah and Hoid/Wit? What does she know about him, how could she have gained that information while in Shadesmar, and how will she work with him/deal with him in future books?
  13. @CrazyRioter and @RShara neatly destroyed my “Why the Sibling Slumbers” theory, but I upvoted their posts for setting me on the proper course-correction. WARNING: THIS “THEORY” CONTAINS INFORMED SPECULATION AND GUESSES. Summary Note the homophone in the OP’s title. The idea the name “Recreance” began as an epithet for the faithless, cowardly Knights Radiant - “the Recreants” - goes back at least to this 2012 post and others have periodically raised it. I buy this idea. I think the Radiants believed they acted in the only way they could. Melishi’s plan enslaved the Singers and stopped their transformations. When the Radiants learned this, nine of the orders concluded honor demands “a spren for a spren.” If Singers couldn’t bond spren and transform, Radiants wouldn’t bond spren either. Their own spren may even have agreed. Only the Skybreakers demurred, thinking the result “just.” Here’s the sequence of events that I think may have brought the Radiants down: False Desolation Begins – BAM Connects Voidlight to Singers by forging a Connection to the Sibling. Radiants Abandon Urithiru – Voidlight flowing through them causes the Sibling to “withdraw.” Strike Team Executes Melishi’s Plan – Radiants “kill” Sibling to cut BAM’s Connection to Singers. Recreance – Radiants discover what Melishi did and break their oaths. Only Skybreakers think this “just.” Gem Archives I think these are the most relevant gem archives: Sibling Personifies Gemheart Growth Process I think Roshar’s three great spren personify essential features of the Singer transformational life cycle: spren, gemhearts and the highstorm. IMO, these are the Eila Stele’s “spren, stone, and wind.” Gemheart Investiture leaks into the Physical Realm like atium. I think the Sibling personifies this process. Like the Stormfather distributes Stormlight, maybe the Sibling distributes gemheart Investiture. This Investiture grows gemhearts. The Sibling’s Withdrawal With no Everstorm, Voidlight during the False Desolation must have infused Singer gemhearts directly. BAM “Connected with the parsh people,” not just those with forms of power. To grow gemhearts, the Sibling must Connect to them. I speculate BAM used the Sibling’s Connections as her conduit for Voidlight infusion. I think this is when the Sibling began to withdraw. The Sibling metaphorically gagged on Voidlight. The Sibling’s Slumber Voidlight may have caused the Sibling’s withdrawal before Melishi, but the Stormfather blames humans for the Sibling’s slumber. A Radiant strike team executed Melishi’s plan. Whatever happened stopped Singer transformations. Parshmen no longer bonded spren. I speculate the Radiant strike team cut BAM’s Connection to Singer gemhearts by somehow cutting the Sibling’s Connection to Singer gemhearts. The sudden break in Connection shocked the Sibling into coma – “slumber.” (FWIW, Syl also uses the term "asleep" to describe her condition after her first Radiant died.) Gemheart Investiture still flows into gemhearts but it doesn’t seem to aid Singer transformation. The Recreants Maybe Singer enslavement is the true “wicked thing of eminence” that turns Radiants into Recreants. The Skybreakers felt the Sibling’s consciousness loss “just” payment to end the False Desolation. That order kept its oaths. Maybe the other nine orders felt Singer enslavement warranted a greater penalty. If Singers could not bond spren, neither would Radiants. These nine orders gave up their bond mates – perhaps in agreement with them – because they felt it was the honorable thing to do. I’ve never been comfortable with the Eila Stele’s Recreance explanation. It was translated by Taravangian’s ardents in Kharbranth and Jah Keved and served his political purposes. Its explanation to me doesn’t justify everyone but the Skybreakers breaking their oaths. This explanation does. The Knights Radiant fell in universal disgrace, forever tarnished as oath breakers. But I believe these Recreants did what they thought honor required of them.
  14. So I've been thinking ,If mankind was really the void bringers and took Roshar from the Parshmen (Their shell like skin also proves this ). Did not the void bringers drive mankind out of the Tranquline Halls ? and also why does the Parshmen have everything to do with the void bringers and void spren , they also refer to them as their gods? this doesn't make sense to me
  15. Having been reading the following thread, and was hoping to start up some more discussion. One possible way to look at it would be that the Radiants and their spren (likely without telling any of the other spren, or at most telling only some top tier elite) decided that the order or radiants must stop existing. When ivory mentions that the skybreakers chose to live in death, its possible he is talking about them choosing to go along with the plan without breaking their oaths, making them just hide and do such a good job, no one even remembers that one order sorta skipped dying. The rest (a long with their spren) seems to have decided that the absolute best way to make sure there are no more radiants like at all, was to make the humans out to be spren murdering monsters. Also monsters that betrayed humanity. Now 99% of spren want nothing to do with humans, and even the 1% like Syl are being forcibly held back. And humans now hate the Radiants wanting nothing to do with anything even remotely related to them, let alone wanting to become them. One possibility I'm thinking of is that maybe the sons of honour (and Nale) are into something, and more radiants does have the voidbringers return. Maybe that was the trigger strong enough to make them all agree to do something this bad? Or maybe some benefit to suddenly dropping the radiant population into (at best) low double digits?
  16. Ok, there's been something bothering me for some time. The supposed job of the Radiants was to stay vigilant for coming desolations. It's safe to assume that they heard the preach of the Heralds saying that they had finally won at Aharietiam, as the whole world was built around that fact, even religions arising from that (Vorinism). So, if they believed them, why didn't they abandon their shards immediately? Given that they thought there wasn't going to be another desolation, rendering the whole order of knights useless. Now, let's think of the opposite case. Let's assume they knew they hadn't won (Which I don't think was the case, cause the realisation of what the Heralds did is sure one of the reasons for the Recreance). That would mean there was a 2500 year gap between the Last Desolation and the False Desolation, in which hundreds of generations of Radiants spent their whole lives being idle. What jobs did they dedicate to? How did they even remember what the voidbringers were llke? Can it be the case that this much time without a real goal was the cause of all the squabbling between orders? Thoughts about this...
  17. So in the book Oathbringer, it is revealed that the Recreance happened in part due to finding out that this land was rightfully singer (Parsh), but more due to the fear that surgebinders would destroy Roshar, just as they destroyed the Tranquiline Halls - presumably Ashyn, or whatever planet they previously came from. However, why did the Radiants not think that they destroyed that planet due the influence Odium had on their surgebinding? - and I assume in that age they were doing voidbindings instead of surgebindings. They survived millennia on Roshar with their surgebindings as they were under the influence of Honor and Cultivation. Why would they think that they were still somehow going to destroy it? Now back to the 1st point - rightful parsh land. I think it is correctly assumed that this in whole wouldn't and didn't cause the Recreance. Humans generally don't feel remorse over the fact that they are defending invaded land - they do it all the time against other humans (and this is in real life, and on Roshar). Humans are greedy like that, even if they are 'noble' Radiants, as their spren themselves didn't view it in a bad light.
  18. So in combing through @Extesian's awesome collection of WOBs (link included below the WOB), I found one that I hadn't seen before that I think has some pretty serious potential ramifications. I for one, am very underwhelmed by the official explanation for the Recreance. Here is the official explanation, as reenacted in Bill and Ted's Recreant Adventure: KR Bill: Dude, look in the mirror bro, there's the true voidbringer. (KR Ted performs the patented Keanu Reeve's "whoa" head shake) KR Ted: I know, we're like human bombs. Guess it's time to start killin' our spren. I've speculated about this before, but given the additional fact that a recently deceased Vessel makes it easier for practitioner's of that Vessel's magic to become Cognitive Shadows, leads me to more firmly believe that there is a different and more compelling reason for the Recreance. Namely that the Nahel Bond allowed Odium to keep the KRs from transitioning to the Great Beyond, and more to the point, allowed him to torture their souls on Braize until they cracked and became his willing servants (and if they don't crack, then he gets to torture them in perpetuity, which if you're the shard of Odious Hatred that's a win win situation). Here are some general considerations (sources for some are in referenced spoiler tags below): We know that the afterlife on Roshar is weird, and that Ancient Singer Cognitive Shadows can come back as the Fuzed. We know that the Nahel Bond was patterned on the Honorblades. How much of the function of the Honorblade was copied? Was the linkage to the Oathpact, i.e. a torturous trip to Braize after death, included in the package deal? The Fuzed don't seem to be using Voidbinding, instead they seem to be using hacked surgebinding fueled by voidlight. The Fuzed seem largely ineffectual, and seem to be the advanced guard of the Desolation. The only real heavy hitters to come out for this battle on team Odium were the Thunderclasts. Puuli, who I would nominate as the Shard of Schadenfreude, in his interlude talks of the ones that will come with light in their pocket to destroy, and refers to them as "sailors lost on an infinite sea".* In Shadesmar, before the battle of Thaylenah Fields, some mysterious spren that aren't gold or red (so neither voidspren or corrupted spren, but described rather as dark) are massed before the oathgate and are waiting to bond with the disillusioned yet soon to be Thrilled troops of House Sadeas. I think this is significant.** So here is the speculative chain, fully assembled. Humans were starting to bond spren in imitation of the Nahel Bond before the KRs were established. Honor was splintering in slow motion (possibly even since the inception of the Oathpact). The Singer's played Let's make a deal with Odium, and the Royals were created (cognitive shadows of the Ancient Singers). Just like the spren got bored of hanging around the Singers, Odium too tired of them (not very passionate those Singers) and began to harvest KR souls as Tanavast's slow death advanced in terminality, causing their increasing formation as Cognitive Shadows. KRs at some point before the Recreance figure out that the Nahel bond allows Odium to trap their soul in Braize and torture them until they break (like the Heralds). The KRs realize that by continuing to fight they are opening themselves up to eternal damnation and unwittingly strengthening Odium's forces, so they decide to voluntarily kill their spren and sever their Nahel bonds. The Cataclysmic event, foreshadowed in the Puuli interlude, is coming, where the broken KRs will come from the Origin of Storms and unleash biblical devastation on the land. Possibly Thunderclasts are really broken KR Stonewards (the essence for their order is Rock and Stone), and the ability of Thunderclasts to form their body out of stone is the only true application of Voidbinding that we have seen on screen. If this is the case, we can expect 9 more orders of Eldritch monster level bad-asses to form from their respective Order's Essences. I would hate to see a broken Voidbinding Bondsmith (made out of Meat/Flesh) or a broken voidbinding Lightweaver (made out of Blood, ehh, gross). This theory also has the benefit of having humans be the original and the current voidbringers, which I think is pretty slick, and the additional benefit of being a satisfying explanation for the cause of the Recreance. Interested to hear what you all think about this. 5. *Full quote of Puuli's interlude: 6. **Text from the Battle of Thaylenah Field about the "dark spren" (really relevant bits highlighted):
  19. I believe that Cusicesh is the mysterious Sibling the Stormfather speaks of. This post will explain why I feel this is a plausible theory. First, we know that Spren are manifestations of the thoughts of sentient beings and in Roshar everything, no matter how large or small, gets manifested. Now, what's the largest concepts humanity tends to anthropromorsize? Land, Sky and Sea. Nightwatcher looks like living land. Stormfather manifests in the Physical Realm as a literal face in the sky. What does Cusicesh look like? Here's the quote: At precisely seven forty-six in the morning—the locals could use it to set their timepieces—an enormous, sea-blue spren surged from the waters of the bay. It was translucent, and though it appeared to throw out waves as it rose, that was illusory. The actual surface of the bay wasn’t disturbed. It takes the shape of a large jet of water, Axies thought, creating a tattoo along an open portion of his leg, scribing the words. The center is of the deepest blue, like the ocean depths, though the outer edges are a lighter shade. Judging by the masts of the nearby ships, I’d say that the spren has grown to a height of at least a hundred feet. One of the largest I’ve ever seen. To me, that seems like a perfect candidate for the Mega Spren personification of the Sea. That Cusicesh is important is obvious; Brandon would not waste an interlude describing it otherwise. However that isn't quite enough to come to any firm conclusion of its nature. For that, we turn to the Recreance. We know that at the time of the Recreance there was only one Bondsmith of the possible 3. We know that Bondsmith was not bonded to the Stormfather; Honor was Investing him before his Shattering. We can assume that the Nightwatcher wasn't the one who was bonded as she is still viable and operational. Also, Cultivation lives and seems to be holding her leash. We know that 9 of 10 Orders abandoned their Oaths. The Skybreakers stayed true; the Bondsmiths did not. So, one Bondsmith abandoned the Order. The Recreance damaged all the Spren who held a bond at the time. Stormfather and Nightwatcher may be crazy but they don't seem to be fundamentally damaged. That leaves Cusicesh, a Mega Spren, one of a kind, one who looks like the Ocean given form, and one who looks damaged as the Sibling bonded during the Recreance must be damaged. It is the perfect candidate for the third Sibling. Furthermore, I believe the faces displayed by the Spren are the faces of every Radient whose Oaths were abandoned during the Recreance, sort of a living memory of a forgotten time.
  20. Right, so the other day I was considering the use of spheres and gemstones as money on Roshar. Yeah they are super useful for holding stormlight and giving off light so it makes sense that they would be used for money. But (and this is where the theory starts) where do those gemstones actually come from? We know from a recent WOB that Roshar specifically does not have plate tectonics. I'm not a geologist or nothing, but it seems like this would make it rare or even impossible for gemstones to be created naturally by underground pressure. In addition to this, we have never heard of a single person having the profession of a miner who would get those gems in the first place. Considering all of this, where do we know we can find gems on Roshar? Inside the bodies of certain creatures that inhabit the planet. In the early days of Roshar, before the coming of humans, the Parshman were probably the largest population of organisms that had gemhearts. What if one of the reasons the humans who came to Roshar started to try and conquer the world was because they figured out that they could get very valuable gems by cutting them out of the bodies of the indigenous people? This may have inspired a full scale slaughter and war of greed against the natives of the planet. What if the monetary spheres used by Rosharans are the cut up gemhearts of generations of Parshman?
  21. In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself: The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense. A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar. B: There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will. Therefore, behold my grand theory! The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we? Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian: It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side. We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s. Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade. The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised. And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about…. I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs. 1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor. 2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two. This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium. Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.
  22. Greetings everyone! I'm new here, and glad to be a member. I was wondering if it was known (mentioned in the books or in WoB) if the Recreance happened after or before the shattering of the plains. I'm fairly certain it's hinted multiple times that the plains seemed "intentionally shattered", though I'm unsure if this is verified for good. As to why this felt relevent to the recreance, it's purely my speculation. I just felt it contrived for whole orders of radiants to abandon their oaths as one due to a vague feeling that they may end the world. But in the face of concrete proof in the form of a demonstration, perhaps it's plausible. Molding and fracturing rock seems to be the within the portfolio of the tension and cohesion surges. If the shattering of the plains was a result of surgebinding, it could explain the sudden impetus they had to forswear as one. Again I could be wrong on multiple counts. Also I doubt I'm the first to this conclusion. So, if there's any discussion going on elsewhere that answers me, or if anyone has the answers here, I'd be greatly obliged! Thanks! I don't post often and visit kinda rarely, but really I look forward to being a part of the community!
  23. My theory is that the spren were in agreement with their bondmates to die and cause the Recreance. Both the Knights and their spren decided that Honor was correct and that they would end up destroying the world if they were allowed to continue to surgebind. Without Honor, Notum and Ishar say there are fewer checks on their power, and we know they actually did destroy their previous planet. They deliberately allowed their Knights to break their Oaths, knowing that it would kill them, and alienate the remaining spren, so that no spren would be willing to seek out a bond for the foreseeable future. In this way, they save all of their fellow spren, friends, family, loved ones, as well as the humans and the Singers. We know that Honor was going mad and dying. He swore that the Knights would destroy the world. Whether that's true or not, he convinced the Knights and their spren that they were too dangerous to exist. 1. The spren are everywhere. It's nearly impossible to hide things from your own spren, and very difficult to hide things from others' spren. Most of them seem able to change size and some can change shape. Honorspren, at least, seem to be constantly curious, investigating anything interesting going on. Only the Knight they're bonded to can see them by default, so they can snoop around quite easily without being seen. An obviously coordinated effort like we see in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance would be impossible to plan without the spren finding out. 2. The spren can read thoughts. Syl can sometimes read Kaladin's thoughts, and definitely knows it on an instinctual level when he's not following his Oaths. Glys seems able to meld with Renarin, and definitely talks to him in his mind. We know that perception is important for whether a Nahel Bond is being kept or not. That it depends on the perception of the person and the spren. If the spren weren't in agreement that the Recreance needed to happen, then the Radiants who were planning on breaking their Oaths should have been losing their powers. 3. Honorspren are willing to let their Knights break Oaths if it's important enough. (WoB truncated for length). Honorspren are are willing to put the cause ahead of their own well-being. It's the nature of protecting. Kaladin is willing to die to save others, or at least put himself in harm's way. I think that this trait is not unique to honorspren, but to many of the Radiant spren. They're willing to die if it means a greater good--such as not destroying the planet. 4. Some spren don't see death the same way as humans do. Pattern is very nonchalant about dying. He fully expects, even encourages, Shallan to kill him, simply to spare her pain. Syl bounces back from being dead and doesn't really even give Kaladin grief over it. Ico doesn't seem particularly upset over his father being a dead-eye. He even is very understanding about why humans break Oaths. Other spren are downright friendly with humans. Even Wyndle, who is quite a fussy little voidbringer, mentions that they don't exactly die, though he is admittedly nervous about it happening to him. 5. The Radiants didn't lose their powers before the Recreance. As I mentioned in 1 (felt like it bore repeating), in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, the Windrunners had their powers up to the point where they broke their Oaths. They flew to Feverstone Keep, their Blades and Plate were still glowing. 6. The other spren don't seem to know the reason for the Recreance. Ico thinks the reason for the Recreance was that humans couldn't honor Oaths. Notum just thinks Radiants are dangerous. Niether of them seem to care or mention much about the possibility of surgebinders destroying the planet. I think that the bonded spren at the time deliberately did not tell their friends and relatives what they were going to do, in order to enhance the shock factor, as well as the sense of betrayal by the humans. This would discourage just about all the spren from ever seeking a Radiant again, unless they were desperate. The best way to prevent future bonds was to shock and horrify all the other spren so much that the idea would be unthinkable for millennia. 7. The spren didn't leave or choose to have their Oath broken. Notum mentions there are "other ways" than killing the Knight, at least until the 5th Oath is sworn. Bui;ding on 6, if the spren didn't agree with their Knights, shouldn't some of them have tried to break their bond? It doesn't appear as if any of them did. 8. The skybreakers and highspren didn't break their Oaths. Highspren and Skybreakers hold the Law and Oaths as the highest possible Ideal, so to speak. The highspren would never have agreed to breaking the Oaths, and the Radiants likely wouldn't either, or weren't willing to kill their spren without their consent. They must have agreed to some degree though, because they've never told the other spren why all the other Orders foreswore their Oaths. 9. The spren didn't break their Oaths on their own (controversial). I believe that the spren can break the bond to their humans on their own. That they didn't also implies that they were complicit in the Recreance. This is a point of contention between me and some of the proponents of this theory, though, so I've marked it controversal. So, thoughts, opinions? Oh and thanks to @Calderis . Like Wit mentions, timeliness is important, and Calderis thought of this before me, although I came to it independently I posted this with his blessings.
  24. Here me out. I was thinking on the reason for Recreance. In the book, the cause was said to be because the radiants found out that the original voidbringer were humans. This seemed strange to me, seeing that a nahel bond is an extremely intimate bond, that they would just kill off their spren for this fact. Also, it's strange to me that they seemed to be horrified about the epiphany, yet do nothing to remedy the situation, the Parshendi remained as mindless slaves, treated like chulls. You would think that they may start feeling pity for the natives. This is where the theory comes in. The reason for Recreance is not related to the reality of Parshendi, but it more of an insurance for the future. Just as Leras from mistborn made plans for after his death, honor may have made his own plan for after his death. It is known from Dalinar's vision that Honor was still alive during the Recreance, and in Oathbringer, we learn that Honor was starting to lose his mind around Recreance. Honor and the radiants of the time made a plan, an investment for the future, the Recreance may be an insurance for the future that both the humans and the bonded sprens agreed about. So where is this Going? In the world today we have maybe a couple of thousands of these heavily invested entity right under odiums nose, (preservation's mist anyone) which may turn out to become the turning point that tips the scale. We know that Odium is not all-knowing just from the fact that he thought Shallan was an Elsecaller, a lie that she told. So it is quite possible that Odium may be fooled into thinking that the radiants abandoned their oath because of the truth. All just a theory that was orbiting in my mind. I wanna know what you guys think.
  25. Hi Sharders! Long time lurker here but this is my very first post. Forgive me if this has been discussed but I don't think I have seen it yet though with all the ideas thrown around on this forum it is hard to keep track sometimes. I am of the opinion that the Fused are in fact souls of dead Knight Radiants who have been broken or corrupted by Odium. As far as I have been able to tell no where in Oathbringer does it actually say that they are Parshendi (it does say "they" and "their" though). From memory it says they are ancient soul of leaders and kings who are valiant warriors from long ago. From what we know of the cultures on Roshar, that sounds a lot more like KR than parsh. I believe that this would explain their access to Voidbinding too, as well as their deteriorating minds. As quite a few people have speculated, due to the Nahel bond replicating Honorblades, perhaps an unexpected side effect was that they get sent to Braise, like the heralds, after death. With the link to their spren broken at death this would leave their cognitive shadow stuck on Braise without hope of resurrection, giving Odium an unlimited amount of time to break their minds. Also with the Nahel bond broken, Odium would be able to easily fill the cracks in their sDNA with the requirements for Voidbinding. I think the KR learned this from Honor when he was losing his mind which was the final straw that caused the Recreance. Lastly, to back to back up this theory is the fact that all of the Fused eyes are permanently Red, indicating corruption by another shard. My other theory, along the same lines is that the Fused are the souls of the original Voidbringers, the first humans to settle on Roshar. This would be a better explanation for Voidbinding as they would have arrived on Roshar with it after destroying Ashyn. I do enjoy reading theories that get shot down as much as the plausible ones so if I am completely off the mark please let me know!