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Found 37 results

  1. So Allomantic Iron allows a Metalborn to 'Pull' metals. So what if a Lurcher (or Mistborn) wore metal boots and pulled on them, would they be lifted up? Would this be a more effective, though more tricky, form of flight through Allomancy than using Allomantic Steel?
  2. So we know that a Mistborn Era 1 year is shorter than a Mistborn Era 2 year. So if you're 20 in Era 1 you might be 17 in Era 2. Then what are the shortest and longest years on Worlds from your perception?
  3. So could the Surges of Cohesion and/or Tension be used on liquids like water, or would that not work? And could they be used on gases as well? Thoughts?
  4. Uhh... where did we leave off? Dyson Sphere... system-wide production... extensive use of all immediately available resources... Gotcha. Kay. We're back. Stellar Engine! Left y'all hanging on that. It's a real piece of work, taking the power of a dyson sphere to do the unimaginable: Move the solar system. All the planets, asteroids, and stuff in our system are tidally-locked to our star: "the Sun" (as it is rather uncreatively named). Therefore, by moving the Sun, you can move the entire solar system. How would we do this? Good question. The nitty-gritty engineering bits are all pretty foreign to me (check out Kurzgesagt's video if you're interested), but essentially you just need to make a massive booster using the Dyson Sphere as an engine. You plug it into the sun and fire it up, scooching our solar system along at a few thousand kilometers per hour or something. The main reasons we would want to accomplish such a thing would be to avoid potential interstellar threats, like rogue stars and planets kareening into our solar system and throwing everything around like a furious toddler. Such threats would be apparent to us for thousands of years in advance, giving us plenty of time to move the solar system successfully out of the way. Bear in mind, of course, a rather important thing: the solar system is heavy. While we'd be moving pretty fast compared to your old prius, this would be absolutely nothing on the scale of galaxies. Such movements would still be sufficient over long periods of time, as evidenced by space maneuvers used on smaller scales in real life currently (for example, one of the primary ways we move around satellites is by the use of mirrors. The minute amount of energy light puts into these things are enough to slightly change the movements of the satellites, which over the vast span between planetary bodies is all we really need). Some concerns, addressed: But Faaaadrannnnnn, what happens if Earth swings around to where the engine is shooting its propulsion stuff? Relax. We're not stupid. The engine would be facing downwards in relation to our orbit around the sun. But if it's facing downwards, then wouldn't we push ourselves out of the solar system? First of all, you're really overestimating the overall power of this device, and second of all... no, actually! Our solar system is actually facing closer to perpendicular our galaxy's plane than parallel to it. The exact number is close to 60 degrees, I believe. So the engine would be blasting us more or less along the same plane. Would this even get us anywhere??? No. It would not. Reminder: this is useful for minute changes in our solar system's placement for long-predicted threats. This wouldn't be any useful in a space battle or overall travel. If this sucker's moving at 20 m/s, it would take a million years to move 0.003 light-years. Proxima Centauri, our closest star, is 4.246 light years away. Crunching the numbers shows that it would take such an engine 1.415 billion years in order to get our system over there. And also putting a solar system inside another solar system would be really stupid. So, at the end of the day, while Stellar Engines are cool, they aren't exactly great. We need some real speed if we're going to be traveling from star to star, colonizing distant planets and meeting friendly aliens. Which means now we're getting to the real numbers. Sub-lightspeed This isn't anything new. We go at less than the speed of light all the time! Such is perfectly normal behavior for literally anything that we can consider to be a "thing." The laws of physics dictate that in order to get things moving, you have to impart energy into it. Therefore, in order to make something go fast, you need a lot of energy. Good thing we got a lot of energy, then. Currently, the fastest human-controlled things are little neutrons and such, shooting about through massive particle accelerators to do... things, apparently (depends on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are)--and they go FAST. The numbers say they go at 99.9999991% the speed of light, then collide into each other to create MINI BLACK HOLES (depending, also, on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are). This is proof enough that it is within the boundaries of our current knowledge and technology to achieve such speeds, meaning that it's possible that we could do the same with larger objects. Of course, it's not really that simple. Protons are really small and really light, so accelerating them to lightspeed is kind of a cinch. There was literally a boy scout who made a working one for his Eagle Scout project. When we kick up the mass a bit, though, things get more finnicky. In order to understand this, you have to look at the fundamental laws of physics. The speed of light (or "C", as you might know from the famous equation E=MC^2) denotes the finite and immutable constant of a massless particle. A photon is the single smallest amount of energy you could possibly have: it is, essentially, your perfect "1" for the ultimate calculus of the universe. Therefore, if C is the speed it goes, then C is the fastest anything can go. Ever. Which, of course, is a problem. We can look at energy in another way, though, in its kinetic form: force. F=MA is Force equals Mass times Acceleration. If acceleration is C, then to move anything of literally any mass ever (let's say one kilogram. We'll be using SI units, as C is defined by the meter). Force would equal 1 X C, meaning you would have to have almost three hundred million joules of energy. To move your car at the speed of light, you'd need about 390 billion joules of force. To get your massive party bus going that fast, it comes out to almost 5500000000000 joules. So you can see now just how ludicrous that is. For comparison, the average annual consumption of energy on Earth is... uhh... let's see... 580 million trillion joules... so to get your bus going that fast you'd need about 1/100th of the annual energy consumption... Uh. wait. Hang on. That's global consumption, but by now we've colonized the entire solar system; not to mention the Dyson Sphere. It's ludicrous still, but... Hold up. Are you telling me that this is actually doable??? Alright, it'd take a LOT of energy to get your spaceship going at close to the speed of light--but by this point in time we'll have increased energy production and consumption by several factors. We've nearly tripled energy consumption since the industrial revolution, which was again triple the amount than humanity in late agricultural periods, which was again about triple(ish) the amount used in early agricultural periods. That said, interstellar travel would be to a system-wide species as regular space travel is to us now. It would be incredibly expensive, but still doable. You'd likely have private investors and crazy gazillionaires funding private scientific and exploratory missions into the closest star systems. Such journeys would be decently long, spanning between five and twenty years. It's possible that by now humanity's life expectancy and quality would've drastically increased, so such time spans would be feel shorter comparatively; however, they'd still be incredibly long and arduous missions. Voyagers would have to take large amounts of supplies and perhaps live in more luxurious ships than what average planetgoers would usually use in order to maintain their mental states. The Speed of Light This is a problem. You see, Einstein was at it again with his massive breakthroughs, learning about things like the fundamentals of space and time--y'know. The usual. I imagine he was driving a car when he came up with the idea of General Relativity: the basic philosophy of frames of reference and such. Let's say he was going at 60 mph on the local highway, then passed an older bloke going only 50. To the police officer watching for speeders from the side of the road, they are going 50 and 60 miles per hour, as he watches them pass. His frame of reference has, effectively, a speed of 0. Einstein's car is going at a speed of 60 (gosh, miles; what have I done to myself?). However, he isn't constantly observing the speed of his car, as he is moving with it. Therefore, from Einstein's frame of refence, his speed is 0. That means to him, the old bloke is going at a speed of -10; the officer, -60. To the old bloke, Einstein is going at 10 mph, and the officer -50. And then he crashes into the median because he'd forgotten something his mother had taught him ages ago: don't math and drive. Of course, it's a lot messier in reality. The easy maths work well if you can't observe your own speed, which is a hard thing to do if you're rolling across a bumpy road during rush hour. The numbers would work better if there wasn't any resistance or external things to observe (like the Carmax ads or bridge overhead). If, say, Einstein was in a spaceship going through the cold vacuum of nothing--no friction, no gravity, no nothing--then these numbers work a lot better. Still, the concept remains. Now we get into special relativity, which is a wonderful can of worms that I will gladly open here. Let's say Einstein drags himself out the burning wreckage of what was once his faithful prius and decides to take the trolley home instead. As he arrives at the station, though, it's just pulling out, forcing him to wait for the next one. Annoyed, Einstein watches all the happy passengers rolling out towards their destination through the window. First, he observes Passenger One: a small child bouncing his toy up and down. To the boy, he's dropping the ball one meter down, and then the ball bounces one meter back up. Because he and the ball are moving with the trolley, he only observes two meters of overall movement. However, to Einsten, he also observes the moving trolley. In the time it takes the boy to bounce his ball, the trolley also moves a meter away from its previous position. So while the boy observes a basic up-and-down, Einstein observes an angled down followed by an angled up, creating a sort of triangle. One meter up, one meter down, and one meter across: therefore, Einstein observes three meters of movement. This is what general relatively says. We already went over this. Moving on. Second of all, Einstein observes someone turn on the overhead lights to read the morning paper. However, the light reflects off the floor into the man's eyes, blinding him and making his spill his coffee everywhere. To the man, the light moved one meter down and one meter up (simplified, because I felt like it), meaning it moved two meters at a speed of yes. On Einstein's end, however, he saw it move three meters along with the trolley. Here's where the problem is. For the ball, the maths are simple. Speed is equal to distance over time: the distance was different, the time was the same - therefore, the only difference between the boy's and Einstein's observations was the speed. This makes sense, because the boy wasn't observing the additional motion of the trolley, but Einstein was. S = 2/1 for the boy, and S = 3/1 for Einstein. But light has a constant speed. Always. ALWAYS. We don't actually know why this is, but it is THE RULE. That means that we can't apply the rules of general relativity to the man who used to have a coffee and Einstein. If we did, then S = 2/[fast] for the man, and S = 3/[fast] for Einstein... this would mean a difference in speed, which is totally not okay. Something that we also can't dispute is the distance covered, because the distance isn't a constant or randomly variable in any way. They have to remain at what each of them saw, or the law of general relativity wouldn't hold up, and suddenly traveling by car would get a whole lot weirder. This, of course, leaves us with one thing we're allowed to mess around with: Time. If the distance is x and lightspeed is the constant, then time is the variable. Let's put Einstein back in his brand-new, top-of-the-line Prius Spaceship, then send him for a joyride out into the cold heart of space. As he passes other, inferior spaceshippers along the space highway, he observes them at varying speeds due to the law of general relativity. However, he also observes light from his headlights shooting forwards at their own speed: the speed - you guessed it - of light. The way to conceptualize it is to remind yourself that frames of reference don't need to be human or animal or even alive at all. Literally everything is its own frame of reference: your shoe, your shoebox, the shoe store... even the old shoes left in your closet from years ago! This means that Einsten is in his frame of reference; the space prius is in its frame of reference; and the photons shot out from his headlights are their own frame of reference. What are the implications of this? Well, remember that light has its constant speed of roughly 300 million m/s, and from EVERY frame of reference, it must be going at this speed. That means that for Einstein, who is going at a speed of... let's say 500k m/s (it's a good prius and also in space), he sees the light shoot out from his car towards the rapidly-approaching Space Starbucks at 300m meters in a second. However, for the space highway cop waiting for something to actually happen, he sees the light go at 300m meters in a second... PLUS 500k meters. The difference in apparent spacialities is due to general relativity, as I explained earlier. Remember that Einstein is observing the rest of the universe moving towards and then zipping by him at the speed of his prius due to his frame of reference, while the cop is observing Einstein zip by at the speed of his prius from his own. That means when Einstein sees the light, he's seeing it move at 300m m/s away from him as apparent from his own reference frame of 0; while the cop observes light moving at this speed, but already effectively "pushed" by the prius's speed of 500k m/s. Now there's only one thing left to do: plug in the numbers and see how much time got dilated. speed = distance / time. Distance covered for Einsten going to be 300m, as he observed over the course of one second. The speed of light, of course, is constant, meaning we can plug that in right away. 300m/s = 300m / x. 300m/s (x) = 300m - > x = 300m / 300 m/s. x = 1. Easy. Now for the cop. He saw a distance of 300500000. 300000000 m/s = 300500000m / x. Do all the same stuff as above and you find a brand-new number: 1.006666666...7 So at a speed of 500k m/s, Einstein is experiencing time 1.007 times faster than a person sitting still and doing nothing. Time travel is real, guys. And we're doing it all the time.
  5. So I've been reading Mistborn Era 2, and found a big problem with the bendalloy allomantic power. So the power is greatly increasing time flow in a bubble by burning the metal. I had no issues with that, until a scene where Wax falls out of one. He only describes a slight discomfort doing it. This makes no sense if you look at the actual physics of how that would work, and since Brandon and this community are generally interested in integrating "realistic" physics into these worlds with magic, I thought I would share my thoughts. So the biggest problem is that you should absolutely not want to move in or out of the time bubble. You might've heard of a phenomenon regarding black holes called "spaghettification". Since black holes have such a great gravitational pull, if any part of your body is closer to the singularity than another (which would always happen), you get stretched out by the differing pull on your, let's say feet, compared to your upper body. Essentially, by moving out of the bubble, a reverse spaghettification effect would happen to you. Since time flows slower on the outside, the part of you out of the bubble would also move much slower, while the part of you inside much faster. I think this would compress your body to an extreme degree, maiming, or in the worst case, killing you in the process. What are your thoughts on this? I just wanted to share my opinion, because it nagged at me. I'm not very far into the books, so there might be an explanation for it later on. If so, hit me with a RAFO
  6. Watching the newest WoB shardcast made it apparent to me that there differing views on Shard/Planet Interaction. I want to get people's opinion on how I view it. I would post some of the WoBs supporting but I'm new and can't do links. WOB: asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Other Known things: Rosharan Magics Ashyn Uses similar surges as the Rosharan magic system does today. The magic is now sickness based. The magic was not always sickness based. All of the rosharan system was specifically set up by adonalsium for a specific purpose. Shards can have investiture in parts of the cosmere that they are unaware of until they look for it. When aware of it, they can shape it in a way. "Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing" Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation but they didn't create the atoms themselves. My Interpretation: I think my interpretation is much like Argent's was in the recent WoB video, but I don't think he had all of the main points readily available to push this idea forward. While I don't think it's totally accurate, I think it helps understanding to think of all investiture and magic as particles for the sake of this. In any given spot you may have matter, light, gravity, magnetism, electric charge, magic (such as midnight essence or lightweaving particles), ect. With these raw materials from a location, magic systems are formed. I would liken it to how different communities would use stone vs wood vs clay as base building materials for their civilizations based on the materials available and the weather forces they see regularly, except on a galactic scale. While typically not cognizant, the shards (either the power or the vessel or a mix of the two) bring magic systems into being based on what is available in that vicinity and how those magics interplay with the shard. It may be possible for a shard to intentionally bring more materials to in area to allow a specific interaction between themselves and the materials to come forward, but probably don't do things more than that to create a magic system. For Roshar, we know that Adonalsium created the entire system for a specific purpose. While we don't know what that purpose is or how it works, if we think of the system as a singular thing it would make sense that the system has a specific set of raw materials. If all investure is just a part of physics then these magics would be part of the raw materials of the system. That may explain why pre-sickness Ashyn, post-sickness Ashyn, and Roshar all powers relating to those surges. There's something about the area that makes those magics more prevalent. I think it would explain it better than the surges are of Honor/Cultivation. That would mean that Honor/Cultivation had a hand in the creation of the unchecked surgebinding that destroyed Ashyn, and then also mimicking/forbidding it on Roshar. We know that Ruin and Preservation very intentionally made Scadrial by jointly gathering and arranging atoms in a way that subfused every atom with thier... attunement? We know that Lord Ruler and Fuzz at times have tweaked the world to have the magics play in their favor (creating mistwraiths, forming the Pits, or changing the metals used to include Atium). But it makes sense that it would be outside of their abilities to have it be "if you burn iron you can now lightweave", because lightweaving particles don't seem to be one of the materials that are readily available in that system. One of the talking points in the stream was that it could be inherent to the shard and that endowment would likely do breaths wherever she was, but that breaths may look different. I would agree with this based on this model. The breath, the magic endowed to each person at birth and the possibility to come back and be endowed with extra life, is likely an effect of how that shard's essence interplays with the materials around it. We may think of Nalthis as a place with a lot of the magic particles that power Tin at scadrial, and other magic particles that can bring awareness/ect for awakening. If endowment was instead on a planet with a lot of gravitation surge and connection surge maybe instead your breaths would help you fly and you could use them to forge a connection between things, but the mechanic of being born with a little and being able to pass them around would likely stay. Let me know what you think. Feel free to add ideas if you think you can support it or bring up some counter arguments. I just was listening to the podcast and I couldn't help but feel the ideas weren't fully fleshed out when Argent was talking about it, and it didn't sound like the other people that disagreed were necessarily disagreeing with the key points. Thanks all!
  7. Note: This is written from an unbiased, nonreligious standpoint using the assumption that if something cannot be proven it should not be used in science. So, fi you religiously disagree with this, my apologies. Free will is not, in fact, real. Our brains are simply chemical cocktails getting bombarded with electrical stimuli caused by an utterly random formation of our bodies in a perpetuating form, that became a pattern. When something happens, it sends stimuli to our minds, which causes those balls of matter to send a different signal which causes our bodies to move in a certain way. It is actually utterly random, and we do not control it. In fact, the entire universe is just bouncing particles, and we have just become, this. A different element you might consult is the probability illusion. Probability is an illusion. As in, even if we were to say, "There's a ninety percent chance of object A getting hit by object B, instead of object C," and had statistics and science to back it up, and object C hit object A, then there was never any chance of object B being the thing to hit it. This relates because our brains work like that, but infinitely more complex. We are receiving constant stimuli which is causing constant response. In truth, if you think about it, death is simply a total lack of stimuli. On the bright side, this proves the scientific necromancy would actually be possible once we understand how the mind works, we can start the stimuli reaction again.
  8. Need any help with it? Come over here! Want to talk about it? This thread's for you! Want to hate on it? Go somewhere else because that's not what this thread is for. These people make excellent resources for help. Math/Calc: Chaos Classical Physics: Glamdring804 Micro/Nuclear Physics: Idealistic Mistborn Chemistry: Pagerunner Biology: Pestis the Spider Circuits: Silverblade5
  9. -> Download Version 0.10 here! <- Hey, y'all! First thread on this forum. I'm a student at Future Games in Stockholm, and this is a pet project I'm working on between classes. I'm working in Unreal Engine 4 and its Blueprint visual coding system. I started this a couple of months ago when I was just done with the Hero of Ages and really into the allomancy magic system. I'm currently on Shadow of Self. No plot spoilers! Goal The goal of this project is to make an FPS-style Mistborn game, where you can play around with some schmexy allomancy. As a fan-made game, this will stay free-to-play. Caveat I want to make a good game representation of the Mistborn books, but some things are blocking the way. School. My time is spontaneously devoted to this project. Me. I'm not the most passionate die-hard fan, I just like the idea of a properly made game, as in true to the material. Controls. I want that feeling of being a cool Mistborn, jumping through the mists, throwing things around. But. Computer/console controls are severely limiting to a magical power that should take your whole body to control (Yeah, who knew, huh?). I want the player to have a good time, regardless of having read the books or not, so I will keep controls from being overly complicated. More advanced moves from the books will probably not be possible, so I will focus on making the general moves feel really cool and make sense for the player. Current features These are the features that I have right now. These will be updated as I go along. The most recent additions are in bold. Steelpushing / Ironpulling Mouse buttons for push / pull (on/off) One target at a time Lock onto target (look around and still control the object) Good-enough physics Coin Drop coin in front of camera Pick up coin from ground (added June 23) Hold coin in front of camera (added July 1) Choice to drop coin on ground and instantly push off it (added July 1) Choice to push coin forward from hand (added July 1) Pewter Switch on/off (added July 11) Greater jump height (added July 11) Faster running speed (added July 11) Extra Health (added July 11) Faster Regeneration (added July 11) Higher tolerance towards fall damage (added July 11) Auto-Pewter @ landing (Reactively take damage to pewter instead of Health if not burning) (added July 12) Breaks Breakable Walls (added Jan 03) Tin Switch on/off (added July 20) Makes mist less impeding (added July 20) Makes damage sight-blur less impeding (added Aug 1) Makes bloodshot screen more impeding (added July 28) Take more damage (added July 31) Darkvision (added Dec 30) Level Luthadel Skaa Suburbs A small Skaa area of Luthadel by the wall Nonsensical metal plates placed in various locations for easy testing (don't @ me) Luthadel Skaa Market A bigger Skaa area with larger buildings (added Aug 22) Noble Keep A stone keep with a massive ball room (added Dec 20) Short intro cinematic (added Dec 26) Doors that open with pushing/pulling (added Dec 21) General Downloaded free 3D assets Pickupable coin pouches (added June 23) Sexy, effective mist (added July 31) Pickupable metal vials (added June 25) Tutorial area with signs (added June 25) Pushable coin pouches (added June 24) Breakable Walls (pewter attack) (added Jan 03) (not in demo yet) Teleporters Between Levels (added Jan 05) Player Coin counter (added June 23) Health tracker (added June 24) Fall damage (added June 24) Regen health (added June 24) Metal tracker (added June 25) Auto-pick up coins and vials you pull towards you (added June 26) Pick up metal vials to inventory (added July 30) Drink metal vials from inventory (added July 30) Melee fighting (no animation) (added Aug 26) Walking / Running (added Jan 08) (not in demo yet) Crouching (added Jan 08) (not in demo yet) NPCs Human Downloaded free asset (added Dec 30) Moving around (added Aug 22) Faction system (who reacts in what way to whom) (added Aug 22) Take damage & die (added Aug 22) Damage player and each-other (added Aug 22) Animated attacks with sword (added Dec 30) Animated taking damage and death depending on how it was attacked (coin or hit) (added Dec 30) Drops sword at Death (added Dec 30) Does not detect sneaking players they can't see (added Jan 08) (not in demo yet) Guard post mode (added Jan 09) (not in demo yet) Koloss Downloaded free asset (added Dec 26) Moving around (added Dec 26) Take damage & die (added Dec 27) Damage player and NPCs (added Dec 27) Chases player and NPCs (added Dec 26) Animated movement (added Dec 27) Animated attacks and death (added Dec 28) GUI Health bar (added June 24) Bloodshot screen while damaged (added June 24) Damage blurs your sight (added July 31) Metal bars Steel (added June 25) Iron (added June 25) Pewter (added July 11) Tin (added July 26) Coin amount (added June 25) Pewter Health bar (added July 11) Screen shakes when falling too fast (added July 12) Hold button to open vial inventory (added Aug 1) Metal icons (added Jan 07) (not in demo yet) Sounds Taking fall damage (added June 24) Dying (added June 24) World music (added June 25) Pick up vial (added Aug 1) Drink vial (added June 25) Pick up coin (added June 25) Coinshot (added July 1) Asset Rights Future features
  10. I've released another major update - see here! Original post: I haven't posted in this subforum before, so I thought I'd mention it here. I've been working on a game/physics demonstration that implements the physics of Allomancy. You can find a longer description (and a lot more pictures and videos) at the full post here: Let me know what you think!
  11. theory

    I believe that the behavior of different Lights, their combinations and anti-Lights can be easily described using simple physics analogies. Shardic Intents are pure states, that, like quantum states, can be added together in any proportions, creating custom Intents / Rhythms. The easiest examples are Investitures of two different Shards mixed in 50%-50% proportions e.g. Harmony (ettmetal) = Ruin + Preservation, War (Warlight) = Honor + Odium, Science (Towerlight) = Honor + Cultivation Rosharan spren are different mixes of X% Honor + Y% Cultivation, where X and Y add up to 100. This would, fortunately, make creating custom anti-Lights rather difficult. Anti-Lights are Investitures of opposing Intents, for example Ruin and Preservation. As Odium seems to lack a directly opposing Shard, anti-Voidlight is some combination of other Intents that doesn't occur naturally. I would assume some mix of Honor, Devotion and maybe Dominion (since they share the Unity theme) and maybe others, mixed in the exact proportions that create the Rhythm exactly opposing that of Odium. With this assumption, two planets of Cosmere (Scadrial and Roshar) correspond nicely to the behavior of two types of hadron particles: mesons and baryons. Mesons are built from a quark and an anti-quark and are inherently unstable. Ruin and Preservation's Investitures being their own anti-Investitures explains a lot: the explosion of power that kills Vin and Ati, Ati being unable to splinter Preservation to Khriss' confusion, mists avoiding hemalurgic spikes. Ettmetal exists only because both powers are held by one individual, and, as mesons, is extremely unstable. Baryons are made of three quarks, so neither can each other's anti-quark. They are bound together in a way that makes them confined together: pulling one quark would require more and more power the further you take it from the particle. It is exactly the same behavior that seems to bind Odium to Braize and H&C to Roshar, the latter described exactly by Mraize in his talk with Shallan
  12. Throughout the series of Era 1, the ash is described as black: "The dry plants, the angry sun, the smoky-black sky." -Kelsier, Chpt. 12, TFE "the black flakes covered up everything beneath," Chpt. 61 and 63, HoA I absolutely love Sanderson's world building and the scenes he creates; it makes sense from an emotional point of view that things need to look dark and depressing. But the Lord Ruler should've known that black colored ash would absorb sunlight and heat up the planet more. White/reflective would've been more appropriate, though snow-like-covered landscapes might not bring as dreary a picture to mind. Perhaps gray would've been a good compromise.
  13. ---- Main topic here! Download the current demo here! Imagine you're a Mistborn in Luthadel and you're jumping over rooftops through the mists. That's what this game project is. It's 100% spoiler free if you're familiar with the basic allomantic powers. I'm a student at Future Games in Stockholm, and this is a pet project I'm working on between classes. I'm working in Unreal Engine 4 and its Blueprint visual coding system. I started this a couple of months ago when I was just done with the Hero of Ages and really into the allomancy magic system. The goal of this project is to make an FPS-style Mistborn game, where you can play around with some schmexy allomancy. It's not finished, and probably won't be for a while. However! I'm updating the demo as I go along, so you can see where it's going. What's in it? Currently, it's a playground with the physical powers (steel, iron, pewter and tin), set in Skaa areas of Luthadel by the wall. There are a couple of NPCs (some friends, some not), a koloss, the fabulous mist, coins, vials and plates. There are some tutorial signs posted in the level to help you control your powers. Read the main topic (linked above) to get specifics about the content. What's coming? The mental powers, a progression system, levels and storyline. It'll take a while, but I'm going at it when school's not overwhelming! What now? I dunno! Go play it and tell me what you think!
  14. Okay, I really should be doing my homework, but I just finished Dawnshard, boi oh boi, was it a good time. Anyway, I am a physics student, and have been thinking quite a bit about what Nikli said during the deal with Rysn. He said, "The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding... All their greatest applications require Intent and Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning--the breadth of understanding-- of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things" (pg189,190). He goes on to say that the Commands were used to undo Adonalsium, but what I am interested in is his what he said about the four primal commands. I've seen a lot already of people talking about how these relate to the Intents of the shards, but I have not yet seen how anyone has talked about how these may relate to the four fundamental interactions we know and love as the Strong nuclear force Holds together atomic nuclei Weak nuclear force Is responsible for radioactive decay Gravity The curvature of spacetime due to mass/energy Electromagnetism Responsible for much more than you might think, like light and chemistry The reason I connect these to the four commands is because Nikli implies that the Dawnshards allow one to surgebind at the most primal level. We already understand that surgebinding is the ability to manipulate one of the ten surges or what Rosharans perceive as the ten fundamental forces of physics. Basically, the reason there are ten surges is because everyone kind of agrees that it looks like there are ten, though there are actually only four interactions. These four fundamental interactions govern how literally everything in the universe is structured, behaves, etc. Thus, the dawnshards are the ultimate surgebinding tool that allow one to plug their will (Intent) directly into one of the four fundamental interactions (Commands) of the universe. There probably is some sort of relation to the Shards and their Intents, but I think the Dawnshards are primarily a god tier tool that allow people to directly influence the world without going through a Shard. What are your thoughts?
  15. This post is the consequence of the most recent chapter epigraph about how the metal "conducts" stormlight, but it took a bit of a left turn and I actually barely theorize about what that metal might be. It is also sort of an extension of a comment I posted almost three months ago. If you're interested, here it is: (Although I will be reiterating most of the information there, so it is not necessary for you to read first) In this comment, I provided a theory about how and why stormlight moves in terms of changes in potential energy. To be clear here, the potential energy I refer to is not the energy of the investure that makes up the stormlight, but rather the potential energy of the stormlight's position in the environment. For example, if you put an infused sphere at the top of Urithiru, it would have a lot more potential energy than the same sphere at ground level. This potential energy is due to the sphere's ability to drop, not because of the amount of stormlight it contains. Without any barriers, any system will tend towards having the lowest potential energy. Balls will roll downhill. Stormlight will move from positions of higher potential energy to positions of lower energy. In addition to differences in potential energy, we need to talk about "activation energy" here, which is a concept from chemical kinetics. Basically, activation energy acts as a barrier to a process. Rather than determining whether a process will happen*, it determines how quickly it will happen. (*Note: if you make the barrier high enough, you can stop something from happening by making it ridiculously slow). This barrier is the reason why the processes I describe will not happen instantaneously. So, here's my energy diagram for stormlight: Here are my justifications for the features of this diagram: All stormlight eventually returns to a free, gaseous state not held in any object. However, that does not guarantee that it is the lowest energy state. If it behaves like water in the water cycle, then it could "evaporate" despite the fact that this process increases energy. I have no true evidence that stormlight is lower in energy at a free state than when it is in a gemstone, but this is the simplest placement. You could place it between "Gemstone (Small)" and "Radiant" without really changing this thoery, although small adjustments would have to be made. Large gemstones leak stormlight slowly, so there is a large barrier which slows down this process. Small gemstones leak more quickly, so the barrier for this process is smaller. Stormlight will automatically transfer from a smaller gemstone to nearby larger gemstones during the process of trapping a spren. This process is spontaneous, so the potential energy of stormlight in a large gemstone is lower than that in a high gemstone. EDIT: I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. Perhaps the best explanation for why larger gemstones are lower energy has to do with the "concentration" of stormlight. It's very possible that the energy density of stormlight in a fully charged small gemstone and large gemstone are equal. The same quantity of stormlight in a smaller gemstone, however, occupies less volume. Thus, when given the opportunity it will "diffuse" to a larger empty gemstone where it takes up more volume. Basically, the potential energy of stormlight in a gemstone increases as the concentration does. This is more in line with the description of stormlight as moving along a pressure gradient, since this is how pressure works in gasses. If you have gas in a small container and you allow it to move to a larger one, it will diffuse between the two. The only difference is that it would leave some gas in the small container. Don't know if that happens for stormlight. Features of gemstones such as their cut determine the size of the barriers, but not the energy of stormlight within the gemstone. Stormlight is at a higher energy when held by a Radiant than when held by a gemstone. I know this because when Kaladin swears the third oath, stormlight entering him from nearby gems causes the air to grow cold and form frost. This means the process consumed energy. Objects other than Radiants and gemstones are even higher in energy. We know this because when Szeth or Kaladin infuse an object with a lot of stormlight, the object grows cold and forms frost. Again, this is a consequence of energy being consumed. (That is what the arrows saying "endothermic" in my diagram mean). A really common demonstration in chemistry classes is to perform an endothermic reaction in a beaker above a block of wood, with some water in between. The water will freeze, binding the beaker to the wood. High-investure conditions refers to states such as Honor's perpendicularity, from which stormlight will burst out and fill gemstones. So far, this is identical to the theory in my much earlier comment, except with the additional evidence of the frost-formation, which I didn't think of three months ago. Now, you can probably see how the conductive metal does its thing according to this theory—it reduces the energy barrier between a Radiant and a gemstone, therefore facilitating this transfer quickly. This is the point where I decided to focus too much on the word "conducting" and went off the rails by drawing circuits. (Disclaimer: I am a chemistry student, so I'm pretty well versed with thermodynamics but am less confident with circuits. Please help me out if you actually know circuits super well) So, how do circuits relate to thermodynamics? Well, the driving force behind the current in any circuit is a difference in potential energy of electrons at the beginning of a circuit versus the end of a circuit. In this analogy, I well be relating the movement of stormlight to the current. (And yes, I'm using positive current. Despite the fact electrons flow the other way. Maybe that's dumb, go ahead and flip all the signs if you wish). Stored stormlight will be represented as stored charge—a capacitor! Here is where things get a bit tricky though. A capacitor, in the simplest case, consists of two parallel sheets of metal which each store opposing electric charge. The capacitor will fill with charge when it is connected to a battery, and without a battery it will act as a source of charge and produce a current in a closed circuit. Now, in order for this to work with stormlight I had to make some... adjustments. The object holding the stormlight cannot really be represented by the capacitor itself, but rather by one of the sheets of the capacitor. The other sheet of the capacitor represents the object that the stormlight is flowing to or from. As I switch between different processes, I will be switching these sheets out. Which is not really a thing that happens in circuits. It felt weird. (I think there might be an easier way to do this that has to do with something called "ground" but uhhh as I said I'm not too well versed at this so any electrical engineers please help). (Also, for those unfamiliar with circuit notation: a capacitor is two parallel lines of equal length. A battery is two parallel lines of unequal length. Resistors will be zig-zags). Let's apply this to the simplest case: stormlight being held in a gemstone. The infused gemstone acts like a positively charged plate in a capacitor. Freedom represents the negatively charged plate. Stormlight, represented as current, which flows from the positive plate to the negative plate, escapes the gemstone. The barrier to this process is represented by a resistor, which slows the transfer down. In this case, the resistance is very high and the transfer takes a long time (days). Next, we can look at the process of a Radiant drawing in stormlight from a gemstone. This is an endothermic process (it increases energy) so energy must be supplied to facilitate it. In this case, the Radiant has the power to act as a battery: On the left is the initial state. On the right is the final state. This is also the first example of the weirdness that was a consequence of using capacitor plates to represent objects. Why is the gemstone, which begins infused, initially uncharged? Well, if I had given it a positive charge, the battery (Radiant) wouldn't have been needed to drive the flow of current. In order to represent the fact that the gemstone is lower in energy than the Radiant, despite containing stormlight, I had to make the plate begin as uncharged. Afterwards, the Radiant will look like this: Basically, the same as with an infused gemstone. The only difference here is that the resistance is much lower, allowing current to flow faster (the stormlight leaks faster). When a Radiant gets stabbed by one of those special conductive Fused spears, the resistance essentially disappears: Thus, current (stormlight) flows very quickly from the positive plate (Radiant) to the negative plate (gemstone). When a Windrunner like Kaladin infuses an object with stormlight, the process looks very similar to when the Radiant draws stormlight from a gemstone. The Windrunner acts as a battery and transfers stormlight from lower energy to higher energy. (Okay these are the last ones I promise) What happens after the object is infused? There are two subtly different possibilities that involve circuits, and one which doesn't: The first possibility is that, as the stormlight leaves the object, some of the potential energy that it is releasing is converted into the effect of the surge. At first, this option seems to be the most appealing because it is how stuff gets powered in real-life electrical circuits. (like lightbulbs) (by the way, this process also involves some resistance so it doesn't happen all at once) However, there's a bit of an issue here. If the surge is produced by stormlight leaving the object, the an object like a gemstone, which has a much higher "resistance" and thus slower stormlight loss, should exhibit the surge less strongly. Since this is not the case, I believe the second possibility is more accurate: that there is a small amount of resistance which leads to the object losing stormlight quickly, and that the effect of the surge is maintained as long as there is stormlight left in the object. The third explanation kind of defies circuits and it is that stormlight is actually consumed to produce the surge. Since current is never consumed when an electrical circuit, I couldn't figure out a way to represent that. This is also the reason why I haven't represented stormlight healing or surges such as Soulcasting or Progression, which appear to consume stormlight. The same conundrum applies to fabrials: do they consume the stormlight, or do they consume potential energy as the stormlight escapes them? Anyway, thank you to anybody who actually read this whole thing. Wow. You're almost as crazy as I am for writing this. For those who didn't, I totally understand. Although I can't quite come up with a good TL;DR. I might include that later. (Edit: wow a lot of the formatting here is wonky. There's extra blank lines and weird indents all over the place)
  16. Edit 3: Here's a quick look into my most recent progress - labels over targets, a more detailed HUD, and several physics tweaks. I'll edit what I can from the original post, but there's a lot of physics discussion in the replies that I highly suggest you read. Jofwu and I've discussed other possible relationships between Force and Distance, and there's a bit of a strange one that he came up with a while ago: Allomantic Force ∝ e ^ -d/D where d = distance and D = 16 When the target is right next to the Allomancer, e ^ -d/D approaches 1 and the AF approaches its maximum. When the target approaches an infinite distance away from the Allomancer, e ^ -d/D approaches 0 and the AF approaches 0. This strategy looks very similar to the linear relationship but avoids its icky discontinuity at the max range of the push. I like it a lot. For comparison, you can see all three Force-Distance relationships together here. Edit 2: Following Jofwu's footsteps, I had a conversation with /u/Phantine on reddit and am reconsidering how distance affects the Allomantic Force. I was originally confident in an inverse square relationship between Allomantic Force and the distance between the Allomancer and target, but through testing, a *linear* relationship has better handling and feels more reminiscent of Allomancers' movements in the books. I've added both as options in the game: The Allomantic Force is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance between the Allomancer and the target When the target is right next to the Allomancer, the Allomantic Force approaches infinity. When the target approaches an infinite distance away from the Allomancy, the Allomantic Force approaches 0. The Allomantic Force decreases linearly with the distance between the Allomancer and the target. When the target is right next to the Allomancer, the Allomantic Force is at its maximum. When the target is at the max range (arbitrarily at 50 meters), the Allomantic Force is 0. I've also added the option to control the strength of your push through two control schemes: The player sets the *percentage* of the maximum possible force they can push with, or The player sets a *constant force* to try to push at, if possible. Edit 1: If you want to play the current build of the game, you can find it here on my GitHub. Aside from that, I've looked back at [8], @digitalbusker's post and see I misunderstood it a bit. I've re-read it and realized that I agree with it much more than I thought I did originally. In one paragraph, they said, This sounds just like the Allomantic Normal Force idea I used in the game. If you push on a target and the target can't move, the target pushes back on you as if there were a long, tangible line between you and the target. In this way, the ANF does work somewhat like an elastic collision. I did some more testing in the game and anything that involved directly manipulating velocities of the target or Allomancer worked poorly. I feel like sticking to forces rather than energy is the right way to go. Table of Contents I: Introduction I-a: My intent I-b: Current game progress & Videos I-c: Referenced forum posts I-d: Definitions II: Force, mass, and acceleration of a push III: Anchors and the pole analogy IV: Math V: Summary & Final points Part I: Introduction Over the summer I’ve been rereading Mistborn and have been thinking about the mechanics of Allomancy. I decided to have a go at recreating the physics of Ironpulling and Steelpushing in the Unity physics/game engine. I don’t intend on actually creating a game to sell (that’d be a bit illegal), so this is mostly an endeavor for personal fun. What follows is my current progress on the game as well as my current thoughts on the math and physics of Pushing and Pulling. Part I-a: My intent My goal is to take what Brandon describes in his books and do my best to create a working model of them in the Unity engine. My purpose in posting this here is to record my thoughts so I can be internally consistent, encourage discussion, and improve the game’s mechanics with your suggestions and criticisms. I don’t expect to perfectly recreate Allomancy as Brandon describes it in the books because there are some things with little connection to real-world physics (such as Feruchemical weight). I’ll try to give the pros and cons for all my decisions. If you disagree, tell me! I’ve been in my own personal bubble while making this, so I’d love some external input. Part I-b: Current game progress & Videos So far, I’ve implemented most of the physics and fundamentals of Ironpulling and Steelpushing. Here are some short videos: The setting: The sandbox I use for testing is based on Luthadel. There are metal poles stuck in haphazardly-placed buildings, and a few windows with metal frames/latches. At the intersection are metal objects of various masses, including coins, ingots, and 16-ton steel blocks. Blue metal lines: When the player (the grey sphere) begins passively burning metal, they see blue metal lines pointing towards nearby metal sources. The wider the line, the heavier the metal, and the brighter the line, the closer the target. Basic pushing/pulling: The player can “target” a metal. They can then push or pull on that metal. They can increase or decrease the strength of the push, as indicated by the wheel near the bottom. They can target multiple metals simultaneously (as indicated by the bright blue number beneath the wheel). Pull targets vs. Push targets: The player has separate targets for pulling (indicated by blue) and pushing (indicated by red). When the player pushes or pulls with specified push targets and pull targets, the player only pushes on the push targets and only pulls on the pull targets. If the player only has pull targets or only has push targets, they can push and pull on any target. Pushing/pulling with coins: The player can throw, drop, and pick up coins. The number in the lower right corner indicates the number of coins in the player’s pouch. Flying around Luthadel: It’s a bit tricky, but the player can fly between buildings by pulling on metal latches and pushing on coins. Some things are still a bit buggy, namely the camera, coin physics, and width of the white part of the blue/red line pointing at a target while pushing. Part I-c: Referenced forum posts Many of the ideas used in the calculations come from the work previous Sharders have done on making sense of Brandon’s magics. Here are some that I used, which I recommend to anyone interested in the physics of Allomancy: When I use specific ideas from these threads, I’ll mark it with a [#]. Other threads I found interesting: Part I-d: Definitions Key statements are italicized. Key terms are written in bold for their first appearance. Push – unless I specify otherwise, I’ll simply say “push” instead of “push/pull” to refer to the math of both steel and iron. It’s a lot easier to read while still means the same thing. All physics and rules of a pull are the same as a push, just in the opposite direction. Target – the metal that an Allomancer is currently pushing on. Coins are often a target. Distance – the distance between an Allomancer and their target. Anchor/anchored – a target is an anchor if it does not move. A lamppost, a coin stuck on the ground, and a metal roof would all be anchors. Note that the metal is the anchor, not the nearby wall/ground/stone. A target is unanchored if it is moving freely with no resistance. A target is partially anchored if it meets some resistance but is not fully anchored (i.e. a coin skidding on the ground). Allomantic Force (AF) – the force that an Allomancer directly exerts on a target while pushing. Equal in magnitude to the force that the target directly exerts on the Allomancer while pushing. The Allomantic force does not change if the target is anchored or unanchored. Allomantic Normal Force (ANF) – the force that is exerted on an Allomancer or target as a result of the opposing target or Allomancer's push or pull by the surrounding ground, walls, etc. I'll discuss this down below. Essentially, it's what makes anchored targets give that extra strength to your push. Now, let's jump into the physics of Allomancy. Part II: Force, mass, and acceleration of a push When Allomancers in the books refer to “weight,” they almost always mean mass. [1] Let’s ignore Feruchemical weight for now. When an Allomancer pushes on a target, the Allomancer exerts a force on the target that is equal and opposite to the force that the target exerts on the Allomancer. It’s F = ma, it’s Newton’s third law, and if anything else were the case, the physics of Mistborn would be far too distant from our world for a good simulation. This explains one of the core features of pushing and pulling: If you push on an object heavier than you, you will accelerate more than it (and vice-versa). You push on a coin out in front of you. The force is the same between you and the coin, but the coin has less mass, so it accelerates more than you. The coin goes flying, but you hardly move. Likewise, heavier objects (like cars) have more mass than you, so you accelerate more than them. The previous statements are most apparent with an Allomancer and target in free-fall or space, where the Allomancer and target (such as a coin) won’t be anchored by anything (such as the ground). When the Allomancer or target are anchored by a wall or the ground, things get complicated. Part III: Anchors and the pole analogy In the books, if an Allomancer is falling through the air, throws a coin downwards, and starts pushing on it, the Allomancer doesn’t feel much while the coin is falling through the air and unanchored. The Allomancer pushes on the coin, but their acceleration from the push is not enough to stop their fall. Once the coin hits the ground and stops moving, the Allomancer suddenly “can get a stronger push” and decelerate more strongly. Here is my interpretation: Pushing against an anchored coin on the ground has a similar effect as holding a long pole and physically pushing against the ground. The Normal Force due to the Allomantic Force (Allomantic Normal Force, or ANF) that the ground/wall/etc. exerts on the target is transferred to the Allomancer. If you held a long vertical pole and pushed down on the ground, the ground would push back on you and the pole. If you tried to push the pole into the ground, the ground would resist, and you could climb upwards relative to the ground. Allomancy mimics this effect. When pushing on the coin, it is like you are physically connected to the coin. If something resists your push, you experience that resistance. It's just like you're literally pushing against the coin with your fists. If the coin's in the air, hardly anything happens. If the coin's on the ground, the ground resists. I drew some free-body diagrams that hopefully help explain what I’m saying. In these, an Allomancer and coin are falling down. The Allomancer is pushing on the coin. Let me discuss two of the other theories as to how Allomancers get stronger pushes from anchored targets: When the coin is airborne, the allomancer is only pushing on the mass of the coin. But when the coin is anchored to the planet, they are also pushing on the mass of Scadrial/the ground around the coin, which causes the Allomancer to accelerate more. [not a quote, but the concept taken from 1] I’ll get into how mass affects the force later in the math section, but I want to now make something clear. With my interpretation, Allomancers push on the mass of metal, not the combined mass of metal and nearby non-metal (the planet). When pushing against an anchored coin, the Allomancer is only indirectly pushing on the ground – they are pushing on the coin, which pushes on the ground, which resists back on the coin, which resists back on the Allomancer – similar to holding a long pole and pushing on the ground. An Allomancer’s strength is the amount of kinetic energy they can add to the system of the coin and allomancer. When the Allomancer pushes on an unanchored target, that kinetic energy is distributed between the two, proportionally to their masses. But, when the target is stationary, their velocity is zero, so all of the kinetic energy is given to the allomancer (and vice-versa). [paraphrased from 8] I like this explanation. Honestly, I may agree with it more than with my own ANF theory. I tried it out, but it was a lot more difficult programming-wise than the ANF idea. Unity has easier force manipulation than energy manipulation, so I framed my theory using that. Energy is just force with extra steps. (See Edit 1) I’ll talk more about the Allomantic Normal Force and partially-anchored targets after the math in Part V. Part IV: Math Now, I’ll introduce the formula that I used to calculate the Allomantic Force. After that, I’ll describe each of the terms in detail. Allomancy is a lot like magnetism, so let’s start by looking at the formula for the magnetic force between two poles. In Allomancy, the “two poles” would be the Allomancer and target. Magnetic Force = Constant * q1 * q2 / r2 Constant – some constant that depends on the medium between the poles. q1and q2 – the magnitudes of the magnetic charges of the poles. r – the distance between the poles. The greater the charges, the greater the force. The greater the distance between the two poles, the weaker the force – and through the inverse square relationship, greater and greater distances cause much weaker and weaker forces. Now, the Allomantic Force: Allomantic Force = A * S * b * c1 * c2 / r2 (See Edit 2/3) A – some constant. This depends on how all pushes and pulls are described in the book and can be increased/decreased for overall stronger/weaker pushes. b – Burn rate. See below. S – Allomantic Strength. See below. c1 and c2 – the Allomantic Charges of the Allomancer and target. r – the distance between the Allomancer and target. Burn rate – the rate at which an allomancer burns their metals. For my purposes, burn rate is a range between 0 and 1, where 0 is “not burning at all” and 1 is “pushing as hard as you can,” possibly without flaring. I bound this to the triggers on a gamepad and to the scroll wheel on a mouse, which allow me to variably control the strength of a push using the burn rate. Allomantic Strength – the most magic-y of the all the components of the force. Some Allomancers are naturally stronger than others, perhaps by sDNA. Allomancers get better with training and experience. These factors get bundled into the Allomancer’s Allomantic Strength. The Allomantic Force is not proportional to the Allomantic Strength (see [3]). Rather, the Allomancer’s maximum burn rate is proportional to the Allomantic Strength. In this way, Allomantic Strength acts as a sort of limiter. Stronger Allomancers must be able to burn more metal faster for a stronger effect. I won’t incorporate this in-game. Allomantic Charge – Analogous to magnetic charge. Contributes to the Allomantic Force. A property of both metals and Allomancers. I recommend now reading [1], which has a very interesting theory on this. I’m not adhering to it completely, though. An Allomancer or target’s Allomantic Charge is a function of its mass. To make the mass relationships of Mistborn work, we need to satisfy a few factors: The more massive a target is, the stronger a push an Allomancer can get off of it. The less massive a target is, the weaker a push an allomancer can get off of it. “[Wax] shot outwards in a grand arc above the city, flying for a good half a minute on the Push off those enormous girders” (AoL ch 1 pg 34) [3]. “…the lamp was a good anchor - lots of metal, firmly attached to the ground - capable of pushing [Wax] quite high” (AoL ch 1 pg 32) [3]. Both of the targets in these quotes are equally anchored, but the girders are much more massive and provide a stronger push. I don’t have any direct quotes, but we know that Allomancers get less of a push from coins than they do from, say, enormous girders. The “heavier” an Allomancer is, the stronger their push. This argument comes from Feruchemical weight, not mass, but it nonetheless impacts Allomancy in the books, so I should bring it up here. While tapping weight, Wax thought, “with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to Push grew incredible” (AoL) [2]. I can’t quite remember the context or quote, but I recall that one of Kelsier’s surprises about Vin was her Allomantic Strength/Charge was large “for her size,” implying that smaller/less massive Allomancers usually have less charge. It’s symmetrical with the target’s mass impacting the Allomantic Charge. It’s intuitive and makes sense. There should be some soft maximum cap and minimum cap to the force. If an Allomancer pushes off of an absolutely massive multi-ton solid block of gold, they shouldn’t be pushed into the stratosphere. Likewise, coins are very light relative to lampposts and roofs, but they still provide a reasonably strong push. This leads me to the most disgusting part of the math. What exact relationship do the masses have with the force? The relationship can’t be zero. If this were the case, mass would have no effect on the force, which I argued against. Also, an Allomancer could push on a “metal” with a mass of 0 and still get a push, which doesn’t make sense. The relationship can’t be linear. If this were the case, a target 10 times as massive as another would provide 10 times a push as the other, which doesn’t appear to be the case. If an Allomancer pushes first on a 30g coin and then on a 30kg metal block, the Allomancer would receive 1000 times more the force from the block than the coin. In the books, Allomancers push off of girders and roofs which are much heavier than 30kg, but they certainly don’t describe such a massive difference in forces from coins. That’s duralumin-levels of strength. I’ve tried out a lot of relationships. Logs, sum of logs, product of logs, and roots. Eww. My solution was to take the root of the masses of the Allomancer and target. Specifically, the, ah, sixteenth root. It provided a good combination of strong-enough pushes from light coins and weak-enough pushes from very massive targets that felt most similar to the books. The number 16 was arbitrary. I figured I might as well use Scadrial’s base number for legitimacy. If I used a more elegant root (i.e. the square root), coins provided practically no force, and massive targets still pushed to the stratosphere. Higher roots “level the playing field” more than lower roots. c1 = sixteenth root of (m1) c2 = sixteenth root of (m2) m1 – mass of Allomancer m2– mass of target Because of how roots work, we can also say that c1 * c2 = sixteenth root of (m1 * m2). Regarding the maximum to the force that an Allomancer can get from an extremely massive target: The heavier and heavier the target, the less and less the increase in force. No pushes to the stratosphere. I’m not actually sure if this is the case with roots, but it felt like it was: the lighter and lighter the target, the less and less the decrease in force. Coins are very light, but still provide a significant push. In the end, I’m not actually trying to figure out how mass affects the force in the books. I am fairly confident Brandon didn’t consider the exact relationship while writing the books. I’m just finding ways to emulate it in a physics engine. Part V: Summary & Final points And here’s the final, composed formula for the force an Allomancer experiences while pushing: Force on Allomancer = Allomantic Force + Allomantic Normal Force = Allomantic Constant * Burn rate * sixteenth root of (target mass * Allomancer mass) / squared distance between Allomancer and target (See Edit 2/3) + Allomantic Normal Force Burn rate is between 0 and 1. A Burn rate of 1 gives the maximum Allomantic Force. When target mass is 0 or the Allomancer mass is 0, the Allomantic Force is 0. The closer and closer the target is to the Allomancer, the greater and greater the Allomantic Force. Like other normal forces, if the target isn’t fully anchored (e.g. a coin sliding across the ground, or a thin metal rod that bends as you push on it), the Allomantic Normal Force ranges from 0 to the Allomantic Force, depending on how anchored the target is. This means that an Allomancer pushing on a perfectly anchored target will be pushed back with twice the force as a perfectly unanchored target, assuming they have the same distance. This last bit about the distance is key. If an Allomancer is falling through the air and throws down a coin, the coin quickly falls further and further down. The Allomantic Force quickly becomes very small. Only once the Allomancer falls further and is near the coin – now anchored to the ground – does the distance stay small enough for the Allomantic Force to be large enough for a long enough time to scale a building. Friction (and air resistance) can also be a normal force, in this context; any (normal component of a) force that resists the Allomantic Force can be an ANF. Gravity, too, can be an ANF. An allomancer hovering in the air (whose push cancels out gravity) exerts an ANF equal to gravity back to their target. Theoretically, the Allomantic Normal Force could be greater than the Allomantic Force if the target accelerated in the opposite direction of the push. If you pushed (not pulled) on a target, and the target moved towards you (e.g. a very determined Steel Inquisitor, resisting your push and walking towards you), that normal force would push on you harder. This could result in “pushing matches” between Allomancers who try to move towards each other for even stronger pushes. Allomantic Normal Force works both ways. If the Allomancer is anchored (e.g. braced against a wall), the target will experience an Allomantic Normal Force. Other details: There are two main coins in Mistborn: Imperial boxings (gold) and clips (copper or bronze). In real life gold coins are usually around 30 grams, but I’ve experimented with increasing their mass by about 10-100 times for the game. Currently, I’ve kept them as 30g. When pushed with any reasonable force, 30g coins instantly fly off of the screen like bullets. There’s no user feedback that they pushed on that coin, other than, “that coin no longer appears to exist.” If you drop a coin from the air, it is on the ground by the next frame. Coins are sometimes described as behaving like bullets, but I don’t like how that works in the game. With heavier coins, you can see the coin after you push on it, but it still moves very quickly. Another option (which is the one I’m using in the game) is to simply cap their maximum velocity. I’ve left it at around 120m/s, which feels good. That’s about 1/3 the speed of sound. It causes some problems with calculating the Allomantic Normal Force from the target, but those have been resolved with coding (more or less). The image on the coins in the game is taken from Shire Mint. Fun fact: Unity doesn’t let you modify force vectors individually, which makes this a bit hard. You can only add forces/accelerations/velocity changes one at a time, then they are all applied to the object at the end of the frame. Calculating the Allomantic Normal Force is absolutely disgusting. See my code on GitHub, if you’re curious. I hope you all enjoyed the read! Please discuss this and give your opinions on the physics and maths of Allomancy. Specifically, Are there any more elegant relationships between Allomancer/target mass and Allomantic Force that you think I should try? Does anyone have any esoteric knowledge of Unity’s Rigidbody/Force systems that you think could be helpful? Any general ideas for the game? Any suggestions from what you can see in the videos? Any spelling/formatting issues with the post? Thank you.
  17. Update 1.2.1 – The Zinc Peripheral In Invested 1.2.1, the sphere's had a zinc peripheral installed, letting it use feruchemical zinc to increase its processing speed and slow down time. This makes it easier to fire coins while flying and select targets for Pushing and Pulling in the heat of the moment. See the changelog for all changes, but here's one in particular: you don't have to select targets before Pushing or Pulling on them. Trying to Push with no targets selected will Push on whatever metal you're looking at (dubbed "vacuous" Push/Pulling). This means you can fly around Luthadel without touching the keyboard. Since some of the controls have changed, be sure to check the in-game Help Overlay as a refresher. Next step: Means of quickly choosing different methods of controlling Pushes and Pulls. One of these will be a method for Pushing on all targets in a general direction, which Wax does a lot in the books. Another is the famous steel bubble. If math gets anyone excited, here's the fun differential equation I wrote for the intensity of the visual effect during zinc time. Fiddle with the variables and try to figure out what they're for, 'cause I ain't telling. X-axis is percentage of zinc remaining in the bank, and y-axis is intensity. Hope everyone's having a good summer. As always, let me know your thoughts. Update 1.2 Last year, I began working on a game/simulation implementing the magic system of Allomancy. I made a thread several months ago to document the initial state of the game and discuss different ways to mathematically model Pushing and Pulling. I establish a lot of the physics of the game there, so I recommend you read it if you haven't already. I've worked on the project a lot over the past few months. This post will be separated into three main sections: the first, focusing on the physics; the second, focusing on the game (with an interlude for more physics); and my plans for the future. Here is the second update on the progress of Invested. The Physics In Pagerunner's famous thread, I made several simulations comparing different models of Pushing and Pulling, showing off how Pushing duels could work as well as what happens when the coin you're Pushing suddenly hits a solid wall/ground. Those simulations can be all viewed in-game, so feel free to examine them yourself and experiment with the Allomancy settings. If we assume anchors do nothing special for your Pushes, Allomancy behaves like an undamped spring. If you push off of a coin into the air, you'll oscillate up to your max height, then fall all the way back down to the ground, then back up, and so on. Changing the relationship between distance and strength doesn’t change the behavior of the system. Pushing duels work in a similar way. The 10 cubes are allomancers, anchored to the ground. Without any dampening, you get a boring spring. The only model I could find that solved both of these problems was the infamous theory that the strength of Pushes is a function of velocity. In case you haven't been following those conversations, this theory (in its most basic form) claims "the higher the relative velocity between the Allomancer and target, the weaker the Allomantic force." Pushes on anchored coins will be stronger than Pushes on unanchored coins because anchored coins are completely stationary (that is, the relative velocity between the Allomancer and target is much smaller). The flavor of this theory that works best in the game (in my opinion) reverses the effect when the relative velocity is negative, i.e. when the Allomancer and target are moving towards each other. This means that Pushes on targets flying towards you are even more stronger than Pushes on targets flying away from you. When you're falling and throw a coin down, your Push will be weak until the coin hits the ground. Then, your relative velocity will be negative, and the Allomantic force will increase significantly, giving you a "jolt" as soon as the coin hits. This is the effect we see in the books, so it's what I have enabled by default in the game. With this model, Allomancers stabilize near their maximum height, rather than oscillate about it: Changing the constant used in the calculation of this velocity factor makes the system more critically/under-damped: Watch how duels play out. I've also unanchored the Allomancers, and this looks a lot more like how I envision Pushing duels in the books. The strength of the Allomancer is important, but weight determines who will move in the end. Again, you can experiment with these settings at any moment. The Game The player is a "primer sphere" - an Allomechanical construct or fabrial. It is an experimental device designed to test the limits of Scadrian magic. The sphere's mechanical nature gives it full control of its body and moment, allowing it to roll across surfaces and jump. This is enhanced by the first metal the sphere can burn: pewter. This is used for sprinting and pewter-jumping. By passively burning pewter, the sphere exerts a greater force while moving, allowing it to better anchor itself or move while Pushing and Pulling. While burning pewter and jumping, the sphere jumps further in that direction and can jump off or up walls or kick away small objects. Secondly, the primer sphere can burn iron and steel. Passively burning either of these metals reveals all nearby sources of metals. The wider the line, the heavier the source. The brighter the line, the stronger the potential Push on that metal. The sphere can "Pull-target" and "Push-target" one or more metals at once. When a metal is Pull-targeted, it can be Pulled on - likewise for Push-targets and Pushing. (Interlude: physics) After all the calculations are done, the player has some Allomantic Force they exert on the target. The mass of iron or steel burned is directly proportional to the net force they exert. If you're pushing with 1000N of force, you're burning 1000mg, or 1g, of iron every second. There's actually a WoB that mildly contradicts this: according to Brandon, metal burning speed is proportional to power drawn, not force. There are two reasons for why I make burn rate proportional to force. First, I can't be sure if Brandon is talking about "power" with the definition used in physics (i.e. a change in energy over time). If not, then there's nothing to worry about; the novels are wobbly enough to not be sure how precisely metals are burned. Still, in the future, I might shift things around to have all calculations work around power/energy rather than force, but the former is harder to calculate than the latter. My college-level textbook only talks about power in regards to applying a force to an object such that it moves at a constant velocity, so the math would get… difficult. I'm working on a model called "Distributed Power" based off of Pagerunner's model 3 that does something similar to this, but it's a work in progress. The main difference between force and power (in this context) is that power is a function of velocity; but, if we're using the Exponential with Velocity model, force still changes with velocity, just with a different relationship. There's potential for a fair bit of discussion in regards to this. The second, more important reason for making burn rate a function of force is reduce obfuscation - if you're consistently Pushing with 1000N, you know you're losing exactly 1g of steel every second. If you have only 10g of steel left, your intelligent lizard brain can figure out how long you can keep up that push. This relationship is more intuitive for the player, and changing this to power would lose that clarity. (end interlude) It wouldn't be Mistborn if you couldn't throw coins. You can toss coins. If you Push while doing this, you'll fire coins directly towards the crosshair. Holding "jump" while tossing a coin will throw it downward, useful for cruising above the ground or a smooth landing. There's also a "Coinshot mode." With this, holding down Push (right-click) and pressing Pull (left-click) will instead throw a coin. This makes throwing coins work more like a conventional FPS where the LMB fires bullets. This (along with all of the controls, I guess) is a WIP. There are a few scenes for the player to play around in: a tutorial and several sandboxes (as well as the Sandbox, which has some fun zero-gravity targets). cracks knuckles cries in GTX 965M Turns On Motion Blur it's gamer time (recorded back when I only had my laptop at school) There is an assortment of other videos here. The Future We've talked a lot about Newton's third law a lot, but let's take a look at Sanderson's third law: "Expand on what you have already, before you add something new." Better ways of throwing coins Changing between semi-automatic and fully-automatic coin-throwing Throwing multiple coins in different patterns Oftentimes in the books, you see Mistborn throwing a "spray" of coins at an enemy like a shotgun blast. Pewter From the start, my plan with pewter was for it to work like a shield in other games, where burning it will prevent you directly losing health. Once health actually becomes a thing, pewter will serve this purpose. HUD General polish is needed. It should be more clear when metal reserves are refilled, coins are picked up, on-screen text changes, etc. Sound The game's completely mute at the moment. I have little experience with sound design and production, so having a meaningful sound system is still a ways away. Controls I've been living in my own bubble, so I've grown accustomed my choice in keybinds. I am absolutely certain think that they're not the most intuitive. If you play the game, please let me know which controls make sense and which ones don't. Argent threw in the idea of using bullet time (or, perhaps, Feruchemical zinc time) for steel and iron. It would help a lot to make Pushing, Pulling, and target selection easier. In general, make target selection better. When you're surrounded by metal objects, there is a lot of visual clutter on the screen. I need to make a better system of prioritizing target selection so that you can say "I want to choose this target" and not accidentally select a target in front of or behind it. I definitely plan on adding macros/techniques for Pushing and Pulling. Vin's Horseshoe Wheel is one example. What I call the "centrifuge" is another - Pulling an object such that it orbits around your body, then releasing it such that it flies in the targeted direction. Lurchers never got their fair share of offensive combat in the books, so I want to show how formidable they can be, with a spicy little feedback loop or two. Other Allomantic metals Tin: zooming in, informative HUD elements about the environment, dispelling mists/visible stars in Luthadel. Bronze: see nearby sources of kinetic Investiture, such as puzzle elements or enemies that would try to Push on you. My requests for you: Play the game! You can download it from my GitHub. What controls make the most sense for you? What bugs and physics kinks do you find? Sanderson's 0th law says to err on the side of awesome. What should I add that would be fun? Mistborn is a fantasy novel, after all - so what are your fantasies for Allomancy in a game?
  18. This is fairly straightforward. We all should know that one of the fundamental laws of the Universe as we understand it is that Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Technically you could argue that matter is organised energy levels but that's only speculation. However when a Allowmancer burns metals, they vanish completely. As it is said many times, these metals are poison to the body normally and they don't really just "pass" in a healthy way. So what actually happens when the metal is burned? Because we know that the Investiture doesn't come from the metal itself, but the metal acts as a conduit and determines the application of the power. So where does the metal go?
  19. You have an allomancer skilled enough to apply forces to parts of objects rather than the entirety of an object. He wants to pick up a brass idol from a pedestal without getting close (scary spiders are at the base of the pedestal). The idol has a mass of 25 kg and its height is 1/6 of the distance between the allomancer and the idol. The bottom of the idol is level with the allomancer's center of mass. For simplicity, assume that gravity on Scadrial creates a downwards acceleration of 10 m/s. In order to overcome gravity, the allomancer needs to exert more than 250 N of upwards force on the ball. Let's double it and say that they want to produce 500 Newtons upward. In order to apply that much vertical force by pushing on the top of the ball, the total force of the push must be (500/sin(9.824°) = 3041.38) N. But this push also results in a perpendicular force of 3000 N away from the allomancer. If he pulls on the bottom of the idol to counteract this force, then the net forces will lift the idol straight upwards. (Also, the idol will start spinning like crazy, so if the allomancer wants to keep applying the force, he needs to be good at juggling his target points.)
  20. Skilled mistborn can hover in midair given multiple firmly anchored target points. If the mistborn is hovering next to a building, pushing and pulling on metal beams, the forces look like the above. The numbers in the image are chosen so that the counterforces from pushing and pulling add to 500 N pointed upwards, which is just enough to make a 50kg allomancer hover in the air. And because the two counterforces apply to the same point on the allomancer, she doesn't need to worry about rotation.
  21. Solid. Liquid. Gas. Plasma. All matter on the macro level exists in one of these 4 phases. From my understanding, the prevailing catalyst for the transfer between the states is temperature. Water turns solid at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, gas at 212 degrees Fahrenheit, plasma is variable. Investiture is the third constant in the Cosmere and, like matter, it also has phases. We've seen investiture sources as solid (atium beads, Shardblades, ect.), liquid (perpendicularities), gas (mists of Preservation) and plasma (AonDor). My post deals with phase changes. Energy is another universe constant in both our universe and the Cosmere. Among the other services energy provides a working universe, it acts as an agent of change when it comes to transitioning between phases of matter. The most common type of energy that facilitates phase change is thermal energy. But due to narrative evidence we know that Investiture doesn't work like that. Temperature has not been a factor when we've seen Investiture in it's different phases. It hasn't been noticeable hotter or colder when seeing our investiture sources in its different states. We do know however based on the condensation that forms when a Shardblade manifests in the Physical Realm that some type of energy transfer is taking place. The question is, what type of energy drives Investiture phases and more importantly in Era 4 and beyond is given significant technological upgrades can those phase changes be induced artificially? If you melt enough Tanavastium would you get Honor's shardpool? The spren likely would not be pleased. Can you make the mists condense into a harmonious liquid? It probably could be done if one doesn't mind explosions. If iterations on Scadrial is any indication then thermal energy isn't the way to do it. So what is? My theory? Naturally occurring phase changes happen through Shardic Intervention. That's obvious. The non-obvious part, the mechanism through which it works is friction. There are 3 Realms of Cosmere existence, Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual. I propose that these realms are both layered and touching. Normally separate, these Realms can be transversed. It just takes a buttload of energy to do so. The realms naturally rub against one another producing a sort of potential energy available to harness. Currently the Shards and those who have Ascended have access to the vast potential energy produced by that friction. The Shards then decide what form this energy takes, either consciously according to the properties of their Investiture or unconsciously due to how Adonalasium was set up prior to the Shattering. Now each Godmetel will react differently depending on its properties. The periodic table of Investiture only has 17 items at present. So different Investiture will be harder or easier to change phases just like it's easier to turn bronze into a liquid than it is to turn Iron. But as the study of Investiture becomes more prevalent civilizations within the Cosmere will be better able to manipulate Investiture. I'm convinced that harnessing that friction energy will be key to this goal. Thoughts?
  22. I read Khriss's essays on Scadrial, Roshar, and Sel and something struck me, how would humans from Sel and Scadrial react physically to Roshar's lower gravity and higher Oxygen levels? We know that out of the three, the Selish will have the highest bone density and the strongest muscles because they live on a higher gravity world. The Scadrians will be in the middle because they are on what is basically Earth, which still has lower oxygen levels and higher gravity than Roshar. This would basically lead to a John Carter of Mars effect for the Scadrians and Selish. Both groups, without enhancements like Pewter, Dakhor, or Feruchemy, could run faster, jump higher, lift more, and have higher endurance than a similar Rosharian. It would be like a runner training in a weighted suit at 15000 ft for his entire life and then going to Miami and running a triathlon.
  23. Creating this topic for Oathbringer-related discussion concerning Roshar's moons, as a continuation of this topic: With that said, here's some things I've been meaning to record... (1) Private message with Peter via Reddit about a reference to Salas in Oathbringer: (2) Also an interesting observation concerning the Oathbringer endpages in the Tor edition (Herald artwork): Ishar - Notable that we apparently see the three moons depicted in the background. Not much interesting about this as far as I can tell, but I figure it's worth pointing out. Jezrien - Look very closely at the "buckle" on his belt. There's a circle of the ten polestones, with heliodor at the top. And inside of that circle are three other stones spaced at different angles, seeming to be purple, blue and green... Vedel - Those are also depicted in the stained glass window behind Vedel. We can also see their positions inside the circle with a bit more accuracy here. Also note that we can compare their sizes: the purple one is slightly smaller than the green, and the blue one is definitely largest. I think it's pretty clear that the three stones/circles we see in Jezrien's and Vedel's artwork are depictions of the moons. I believe their positions are actually indicative of their timing--presumably the time that they rise. Think of Vedel's stained glass window as a 10-hour clock (matching Roshar's 20-hour day). Rather than splitting the day by noon/midnight, they split the day by sunrise/sunset. So if you have exactly 10 hours of light/dark, the sun would rise and set at 0:00 (or 10:00, depending on convention) and noon/midnight would be at 5:00. Eyeballing the position of the moons around this circle in Vedel's image, it would suggest that Salas rises around 3/4 of an hour after sundown. Fits pretty well with the descriptions that it rises right around full dark. Nomon is only about 2 hours later, suggesting that Salas moves pretty darn fast. I think there's a WoR reference suggesting Salas reaches full height in half an hour, so that would actually work well. (if I remember right). Nomon sets as Mishim rises, which means it's up for a good 4 hours. Then Mishim would be up for another 2.5 hours or so until sunrise. It's hard to say how exact those positions are meant to be. And I could be interpreting something wrong here? But I think it seems to generally fit the right idea, if nothing else. It also reinforces the idea that they follow the same rise times everywhere. (somehow) It's curious to me that the artist (I think it's supposed to be the same one in both of these?) would inscribe the moons inside of the ten polestones. That's some interesting Vorin (?) imagery and I'm not sure what the meaning could be. The fact that they both have it suggests to me that it has some kind of significance.
  24. I've been thinking about the physics and realmatics of soulcasting. We have seen quite a bit of it on screen, but there are, of course, still mysteries. Going down the soulcasting rabbit-hole, I came across the following WoB: Unfortunately, this seems to disagree with the canonical description of soulcasting. I imagine Brandon said this because in general he likes to preserve the laws of physics. (In this case the conservation of mass.) But how does mass conserving soulcasting contradict canonical soulcasting: 1) Soulcasting is shape preserving. We have seen this in every case where it is possible to see the shape of both the original object and the soulcast object. However, not only is it shape preserving, soulcasting also seems to be volume preserving. We have never seen a soulcast object, when soulcast into a denser material, shrink. This would be a very visible effect. It looks like marble has a density of about 2.7 g/mL. A human body has a density(if we include the air filled lungs) a little less than water, so let's call it 1 g/mL. If soulcasting conserved mass, a body soulcast to marble would shrink in volume by about 63%. This would cause a 6 ft. man to become a 4' 4" statue. 2) If soulcasting conserved mass, soulcasting to a lighter density material would cause catatrophic explosions. The analysis would be easier if she had soulcast it to air, but let us consider the example of Jasnah soulcasting the boulder to smoke. The smoke floated upward so it is less dense than the surrounding air. It looks like air at Standard temperature and pressure is about 1.3e-3 g/mL. If the boulder was 1m diameter sphere (This is being generous, it was likely much larger), it would have a mass of about 1.4 million grams of 1400 kg (using the density of marble as above). If soulcasting conserved mass, this would result in smoke that really wants to occupy about 1 million liters. To put that in D&D terms, that is 307 5ftx5ftx5ft cubes. Upon being soulcast the smoke would initially be at a pressure of 770 atms. A rough estimate would put the resulting expansion of the smoke at the equivalent of 55 lbs of TNT. (This last figure is very detail dependent and it is possible that I made some mistakes in the calculation. To make the conversion to equivalent pounds of TNT, I referencedça/Safety/GUIDELINES_Chemical_Process_Quantitative_Risk_Analysis/0720X_02e.pdf) My conclusion? Soulcasting doesn't preserve mass, it preserves volume. Breaking conservation of mass is always problematic if you want to have physics behave in any way like we are used to, but I have some realmatic thoughts about that that I will share soon. I think that you can avoid the troubles associated with non-conservation of mass in a realmatic way.
  25. EDIT: There's been a lot of discussion and revision to my original ideas, and I would recommend basically skipping this first post for the most part. It is, however, important to read the first two sections ("Observations" & "Related Information") as they set up some of the information given in the books and by Peter which is used to support the rest of the findings. Here are links to my most recent analysis: The orbits of the moons precess as the planet orbits the sun: (I've since dropped the notion that they share exactly the same orbit, better language would be to say the moons share the same period and have very similar orbits....more on this in the posts below.) The orbit of the moons is in the opposite direction compared to Roshar's rotation: (more details in the next link...) More about the orbits being in the opposite direction & how the orbits must be inclined when compared to the plane of the Roshar's orbit around its sun: Preliminary calculations for the orbits: There is, of course, a lot of good discussion and contributions between all these posts that I would recommend! I'm in the processes of re-organizing all of the information that has been deduced into a single document, so it can be read without the need to jump between posts and it would skip past the incorrect hypotheses. ----Orignal Opening Post (read the first two sections, the rest is now discarded)---- All this talk about the moons of Roshar in the other two threads got me thinking… Based on the "observations" provided in the book and the comments from Peter, I’ve come up with some speculations about the moons of Roshar. First…the data! Observations: “The sun set in the west, but the wagons kept rolling. Violet Salas peeked over the horizon to the east, seeming hesitant at first, as if making sure the sun had vanished.” WoK Chpt 2 “Nomon—the middle moon—had begun to rise, bathing the city in pale blue light. Staying up this late had been a rare privilege for her in her father’s house…” WoK Chpt 8 “Szeth looked over his shoulder, wishing that the Second Sister—known as Nomon to these Easterners—had risen to give a little more light.” WoK I-3 “Salas’s violet light shone in the sky outside, but the small moon wasn’t bright enough to illuminate the barn’s interior, and the creature had moved into a shadowed recess.” WoK Chpt 19 “Nomon—the middle moon—shone with his pale, blue-white light.” WoK Chpt 23 “Nomon was setting in the west, and the small green disk of Mishim—the final moon—was rising in the east.” WoK Chpt 23 “Two hours later, at Salas’s first violet light, Rock and Kaladin walked back into the lumberyard. It was just past sunset, and many of the bridgemen would soon be going to sleep.” WoK Chpt 27 “Kaladin smiled, leaning back, looking upward toward the dark sky and the large sapphire moon.” WoK Chpt 73 Related Information: PeterAhlstrom, on 06 Feb 2014 - 2:06 PM, said: Each moon is in the sky only once per day and moves across the sky in a couple to a few hours. What does that tell us about their orbits? PeterAhlstrom, on 06 Feb 2014 - 5:15 PM, said: I expect the moons were put in their current orbits artificially, but by whom or what I do not know. On astronomical terms, these are not stable orbits, but astronomical terms means millions of years. A few thousand or even a few hundred thousand years are no problem. PeterAhlstrom, on 27 Feb 2014 - 11:37 PM, said: They are very small. Think Phobos and you'll be in the ballpark. ------ Here are the “facts” based on the observations: Salas and Mishim are both described as “small” moons. (WoK Chpt 19 & 23) Nomon is described as a “large” moon. (WoK Chpt 73) Salas always rises first, Nomon always rises second, and Mishim always rises third. [szeth refers to Nomon as the Second Sister (WoK 1-3), Nomon is refered to as the “middle moon” (WoK Chpt 8 & 23), and Mishim is called the “final moon” (WoK Chpt 23), by process of elimination Salas is first.] Orbital Locations of the Moons: Since the moons always rise in the same order (Salas, Nomon, Mishim), all three moons have to be the same distance away from Roshar. They all have to be in the same orbit. Otherwise they would appear in a different order on various nights over time. And this means… the moons are at Lagrangian points! The Lagrangian points are stable locations where objects can share the same orbit. Jupiter, for example, shares its orbit with asteroids at Lagrangian points 4 and 5. Using the above image to describe the Sun-Jupiter system, the Sun is at the center, Jupiter is the purple body to the right (between L1 and L2) and the Jupiter Trojan asteroids are found around L4 and L5. Lagrangian points 4 and 5 are always about 60 degrees from the body on the right (Jupiter, in this example). In the case of these moons, Roshar would be the central body, while the most massive moon (based on the size, this would presumably be Nomon) would take the purple point near L1L2 (where Jupiter was), and the other two would have to sit at the other Lagrangian points. There is one final piece of information that helps us lock down the locations of the moons: from WoK Chpt 23 it’s clearly states that Nomon is setting just as Mishim is rising, i.e. they are 180 degrees apart…on opposite sides of their orbit. For the Roshar-Nomon system I propose that Salas is at Lagrangian point 4 and Mishim is at Lagrangian point 3. In regards to the orbits of the moons not being perfect circles… Jupiter has an orbital eccentricity of about 0.049. The Earth’s eccentricity is only 0.016. Even Mars, with an eccentricity of 0.093(!!), still has trojan asteroids at its Lagrangian points. I think it’s safe to say the Roshar-Nomon system has Lagrangian points. It is, however, notable that L3 is typically a very specific point and it can be unstable…I’m hoping the “artificial placement” of these moons helps to explain how Mishim ended up in such a perfect placement. Size Approximations: Since Peter suggested Phobos was a ballpark, I’m going to go ahead and copy it as a template for the moons of Roshar. First, Phobos orbits at approximately 9000 km from Mars, so I’m going to put the Three Sisters at that distance from Roshar. Because Nomon seems to reflect enough light to see by at night (WoK Chpt 8), which our Moon does as well, and I don’t have anything better to go on, I’m going to assume that Nomon looks to be visibly the same size as our Moon. Our Moon is about .5 degrees in diameter on the night sky. An object at 9000 km away would have to be 80 km in diameter to appear as .5 degrees in diameter on the night sky. As for the small moons, I’ll look to Phobos as an example again. Phobos is 22 km in diameter. From the surface of Mars, Phobos would appear to be about .14 degrees big on the night sky. In other words, a moon the size and distance of Phobos would appear to be a little under the diameter of the Moon as seen it from Earth. Assuming that the small moons, Salas and Mishim, have relatively the same diameter and mass, and that Nomon is significantly larger, these numbers seem decently reasonable to me. It would make the two “small” moons appear to be about 1/3 the size of the “large” moon, and the “large” moon would appear similar in size to our Moon. Closing Thoughts & Questions: It’s after midnight, so I don’t want to try and figure this out now, but I think we can get some more solid information on the orbital period of the moons based on what is presented in the Observations and Information sections. Peter said the moons were in the sky “only once per day,” which is interesting.... Especially considering that all observations of the moons only seem to take place at night (anyone have any daytime references?) There are two comparisons between sunset and Salas moonrise that I can recall; WoK Chpts 2 and 27. In both chapters, Kaladin observes Salas rising just after the sun had set. I don’t recall any mention of Salas and Nomon being in the sky together, but if my Lagrangian point theory holds I would keep an eye out for it in the upcoming books. It is, however, clear that Noman is setting when Mishim is rising (WoK Chpt 23). If the moons are only in the sky at night (as visible from Alethkar at least), does Salas always rise just after sunset? I’d love some lunar observations from Shinovar to see if the moons are visible during the day over on that side of the world! It is also possible that the two small moons are simply too small to reflect enough light, and the large moon, being blue, might just blend in with the sky. Still it seems really really weird to me that we only have nighttime lunar observations. Something to consider! I can’t wait to read of additional lunar observations in Words of Radiance!!!!!! ((edited for ugly formatting error I didn't notice in the previews))