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Found 23 results

  1. He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. -Nietzsche Aphorism Part 1 Exterminating Parshmen In Words of Radiance the first assumption of Bridge Four after they eavesdrop on a conversation of Shallan warning Adolin of the Singers is to assume she wants to exterminate them all. In OB Jasnah makes this offhand comment: It`s in the sake of an argument, I know, but the extermination of all Singers is actually thinkable. If Parshmen genocide is thinkable for our heroes, then it might be more than thinkable for more shady people among the leaders of the Alethi like Ialai Sadeas. And the real war has not even started yet. Throughout OB the Parshmen are referred to as “monsters”. What do you do with monsters? You slay them. Additionally: the war against the Parshendi was ended by killing almost all Parshendi, why should the same trick not work on a grander scale? Part 2 Rebellious Parshmen The uprising of the Parshmen resembles a slave or peasant uprising. Slaves shove off their masters shackles and free themselves. You know how many slave/ peasant uprisings have been successful in western ancient and medieval history? Right, not a single one. They seized a lot of territory but were ultimately crushed, all of them. There are reasons for this. Slaves don`t have any fighting experience, masters have professional armies, that fought their entire lives. We see this at the battle of Thaylen the Sadeas armies would have totally crushed the Singer-army, even with support from the Fused and the beasts. And the Fused aren´t they these tactical geniuses? Yes they are, but there are only a few hundred of them and a lot of them have gone insane. Essentially the Singers are normal people like you and me trying to fight a professional boxer. Even if we had the best coach and the best strategy ever (the Fused/ Voidspren), we could never beat the professional boxer. Even if we trained every hour of every day for a year- we just could not. But the Parshmen have the numbers, don`t they? If you compare current army sizes, yes. But, ultimately, there are way more Humans on Roshar and in Alethkar than Singers. All these Humans in Alethkhar need Parshmen guardians to look after them. So they cannot bring their full army force to battle because they need to garrison all those towns and cities in Alethkar. Remember the mantra Shardbearers don`t hold any territory? Well the same goes for the Fused. Plus the Alethi have a giant pool of possible recruits in Jah Keved. So no, the Singers don´t have the numbers. Part 3 A war in Alethkar What does this mean? Well Odium simply needs Humans to change sides on a massive scale to win the war. He is deadly sure that he will win: Like, there is no possible way he could not. Therefore, he has to have a sure plan on how to turn most of the military establishment to his side. How will he do it? By persuading them that it is necessary, just and feels satisfying to exterminate all Parshmen they find. I think Dalinar`s flashback chapters gave us a hint at what the current Alethi ethics of war are like. It will be worse, if the enemy happens to be not even human/ is a “monster”. Plus, what will they see, if they enter Alethkar? Abused Humans. This will surely persuade them that a war of extermination is not only necessary, but emotionally justified. I imagine the debate on the conduct of the war will open a rift between House Kholin, Aladar, Sebarial and the others. Dalinar will urge upon a honorable conduct of war. The other Houses will see this first as a weak and soft hand approach, then as a betrayal. After a few decisive battles for the Alethi at the beginning of the war, the Fused will opt for a guerilla war strategy. By that time the other Houses will desert from House Kholin and follow a new leader, perhaps Ialai Sadeas. They will begin the extermination of all Parshmen and fight the Kholins. By that time they will be in Odium`s hands. The Vorin church will actively support them. Aren`t the Parshmen literally the Voidbringers? Aren`t they supposed to kill them according to their religion? Aren´t Queen Jasnah and Dalinar heretics? Aren`t the Knights Radiant traitors? What about that really powerful god that revealed himself and who says he loves us? He must be the Almighty right? This is how the Alethi as a nation will become the monsters they fought. Part 4 Odium`s children Odium regards Humans as his children: The same attitude goes for the dialogue with Taravangian. Odium does not actually want to kill all Humans, he wants to bring them into his fatherly arms. The Singers are treated pretty harshly by Odium and the Voidspren in OB, which is in stark contrast to how he treats Dalinar and Taravangian. Odium wants his beloved children to fight for him, just like it had been in ancient times, before Honor and the spren intervened. The Singers are just a tool to get his children to his side and always have been. Odium will throw them away, once they will have outlived their usefulness. (I posted an earlier version of this a few months ago, I hope you forgive me for opening a new thread)
  2. Did Roshar originally have Spren? Sylphrena indicates 4 genders of spren. 2 for the Parsh, 2 for the human. I don't think Roshar was formed like other Shardic worlds. No other Cosmere world has spren like Roshar, so far. It would seem that the Parsh thought of their objects being Malen and Femalen, voila SPREN! Perhaps? Maybe? Did the way they think or sing create the spren way back then? Shard worlds seem to have the 3 realms setup. Roshar wasn't created by a Shard (that I'm aware of.) The way I understand the history is that Odium saw the existing native Parsh and decided to become their god. He got invested to that Solar System. Along comes the human Voidbringers to settle around Shinovar (initially.) Honor and Cultivation either settled with them or decided to call it home at a later time. Introducing Honor's high storms, Odium's Everstorm (old in design) and the Cultivation's/Nightwatcher's Old Magic. When I read TWoK, I assumed Honors' death and Splintering brought about the spren. I have now been proven false. So, I suspect Roshar was similar to an Earth like world and topography. The Parsh evolved naturally and all was pleasant until Odium rolled on in. My question is HOW and WHEN do you think Roshar got spren? A certified timeline of these early events would be great to read. Thank you.
  3. I believe that Ba-Ado-Mishram was in part responsible for the creation of the Parshmen, as they are known to modern Rosharans. Her description in *Hessi's Mythica* reads, “She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations.” Then, looking back to the Epigraph of Ch. 80, a Knight Radiant records, “Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.” My theory is that prior to Odium’s arrival on Roshar, Cultivation employed Ba-Ado-Mishram as a coordinator, or possibly originator of the Singer’s unique ability to transform by bonding Spren in their Gemhearts. Odium found their connection to Spren an easy in. As his Shardic Intent is of Hatred and passion, any person with a living invested splinter of emotional investiture bonded to their Gemheart is an easy target for him. Something about Odium’s banishment to Braize impairs this direct ability, but Odium plays the long game ALMOST as well as Cultivation. He corrupted Ba-Ado-Mishram, using her connection to the Parsh as a convenient middleman in his plans. Then we have the next Epigraph. “We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.” I believe the Knights Radiant strike team were successful in their attempt. Ba-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned, and cut off from the Parsh. This left them without control, mindless, and so complete was her hold on them that they had not the wherewithal to return to their songs to find their people again. Unwittingly, the Knights Radiant created the perfect slave race. It is entirely within human nature (sadly) to see this resource and exploit it. Thus the Parshmen as they are known to modern humans on Roshar. They are described as “without songs” and behave as nearly mute subordinates merely content to do as they’re told. The moment this stuck was, oddly, unrelated to the Parsh. I was puzzling over something in Part 3 of Oathbringer. It was the description of the Palace Guards in Kholinar. They were described as “Human, but *wrong*”. One of them ran Shallan through without warning, expression, or reaction, in the middle of a sentence. Their actions were ordinary, but too much so. They had no emotion, no passion. They had given it to Odium. I believe there were not three but FOUR unmade in Kholinar that night. Ashertman, Heart of the Revel is obvious. As is Sja-anat, Keeper of secrets, seen in the mirror and later conversing with Shallan. Yelig-nar bonded with Aesudan and destroyed her. But among those three, each an Unmade with a clearly defined power-set, I see none who could cause this behavior amongst those in the palace. I see two possibilities: 1) They are now of Odium. This is most ambiguous, and sadly a bit likely, given Brandon’s penchant for giving us just a few pieces at a time. It is entirely likely that their behavior is simply that of Men who, like Moash, have succumbed to his siren call, “It is my fault, you need not bear this burden”. Thus their passion is lost to Odium and with it their will 2) Ba-Ado-Mishram is breaking her captivity somewhere in Kholinar (Her prison possibly involving the Windblades? That’d be fun) and turning the humans of Kholinar into slaves. The similarities in their behavior are just too stark for me to dismiss. I see humans acting as mindless slaves in an environment that should be driving them to madness, and I look for a reason. I think it’s Ba-Ado-Mishram. Now that it’s written, I’m less convinced of the Kholinar connection, but moreso on the Parshmen connection. Tell me what you think?
  4. I wasn't able to find a thread about this but I was doing a reread of oathbringer and ran across a few things that gave me an idea of how the Parshmen were created. The beginning of chapter 80 it said During during the chapters kaladins a captive he's talking to them. This is from memory so no direct quote. He's told they lost their connection, their identity. There's a few other things that I could reference but I'm not good at finding them. Anyways I think this event happened. They were able to capture the unmade and the parsh she was connected to became the Parshmen. They few that weren't connected became the parishendi.
  5. I've been thinking for awhile about how the Parshendi have a Gemheart Bond with spren (using gemhearts inside of them to capture the spren) that is similar to the Nahel Bond of the Knights Radiant. More background on that theory is here: I've just barely started my reread and am struck by an idea for how the ancient Alethi (or others) might have created their Parshmen. I believe parshmen to be Parshendi without gemhearts to capture the spren that gives the Parshendi their abilities to change forms. Recently, I've realized that spren are released from the Gemheart (Parshendi) Bond as soon as the host dies, which is why we always see Mandras around dead chasmfiends and potentially why we see Timbre flying around Eshonai's body. This idea is strongly supported by the rebirth of the Fused whenever their host body dies. What if we amputate the gemheart from a living Fused? That would transform the Parshendi into parshmen and give the Alethi all of these gemhearts with the spren of the Fused still captured inside - just like the captured ancient spren that Gavilar is talking about in this quote and IMO just like the one in the sphere he gives to Eshonai. Gavilar just doesn't understand that it wasn't the Alethi who actually captured the spren but the Parshendi, with the Alethi only recovering the gemstone-captured spren from the living bodies of the Parshendi.
  6. My read on this is that the Heralds tap out of torture time in Damnation/Braise then come to Roshar, presumably ahead of the Unmade to train new radiants. Then the Unmade come back, somehow power up the parsh (via BAM? void spren?) and fight the humans. Then, do the humans win when they defeat Odium's champion? Does that mean in the past? 'What does a win mean as far as what happens to the non-humans? (Not the wildlife) If Odium's champion loses, and all the Heralds are killed, do all the Unmade go back to Braise? Parsh warriors too? Or just the Heralds? Maybe the Unmade don't all die, they just jump to the Cognitive realm and then do the electric slide over to Braise? If the Unmade are cognitive shadows, some are less sapient and can be in the physical realm without a body/vessel and others more aware and sapient who need a body/vessel to operate (I guess they have all been seen on Roshar in "spren" form, just seems some are smaller versions of themselves as seen on Roshar vs larger versions as seen in the Cognitive realm, I'm talking more avl out being able to use powers, their form of void lashings, etc). Is Damnation in the cognitive realm? Because the Heralds are porting in their bodies, they aren't cognitive shadows. They are akin to worldhoppers, though a forced transfer rather than voluntary, but moving at the time of death and somehow when they tap out from Braise to Roshar. This seems to be predicated on the deal between the Heralds, Honor and Odium (and maybe Cultivation). But for the Heralds, is it a forced trip from spot a, to the cognitive realm, to spot b? T'aln certainly wasn't in any condition to wander through the cognitive realm. Kinda picturing Braise spren bouncers bodily dragging him through and then giving him a heave ho through a portal. And what about the parsh warriors/people? Since this is not a true desolation, we don't really know what's up with the "leftovers"; the parshendi/Listeners and parshmen. If the true desolation was ended, would the parsh people have left Roshar? Would they be devolved? If there was a true end to the last desolation, and if the parsh warriors of old were taken off world, would the current Listeners and parshmen have been affected (again, if the parsh get taken offworld) since they were either without spren, in dullform, or somehow affected by BAM's imprisonment and either voidsprenless, depowered, spiritually lobotomized, tweased, or had their Connection severed? Also, we know the Everstorm is new, so how did the Parsh get powered up back then in past desolations? Just BAM empowering? Did they have voidspren (seems likely), and then when Odium lost, what happened? The voidspren got flushed? The actual vessels/people/parsh went off world? arg!!!!!
  7. [ Spoilers from the first 30 chapters of Oathbringer currently released ] So with the "final Desolation" pretty much officially underway as of the end of WoR, the main question going through my mind has been: how the hell can Odium actually lose??? Think about it. We know from Dalinar's visions and various other lore elements that in the past each Desolation nearly wiped out humankind. In fact, the justification for the current level of technology (or lack thereof) is that civilization is basically pushed back to the bronze age with each Desolation because of how devestating they are. And now consider this: that was with the full, organized strength of the Knights Radiant. Literal armies of them. Plus the Heralds! Now we have the Final Desolation coming, and so far there's only a handful of fledgling Knights Radiant, none of whom even have their Shardplate yet. Not only that, but the existing nations are super divided, and at the start of Oathbringer it looks as though it will not be easy to unite even a small number of them. So how can Odium screw this up? How could this be even a close fight? It seems to me that the only possibility is that the Listeners (at least some of them) are going to fight with humans. This is being set-up already at the beginning of Oathbringer, where we see groups of former parshmen slaves, healed by the Everstorm, basically just on the run. Not trying to attack, not out to kill humans in vengeance even (though they have real cause to want revenge). Just trying to survive, and most importantly not yet infused with any type of Voidspren (at least not in any obvious way). We also know that the Listeners way back made a choice to cut themselves off from their gods (Odium and co), restricting their forms drastically but earning freedom. They assassinated Gavilar in an effort to stop their "gods" from returning. They don't want to be Voidbringers, and I can totally see at least some of them fighting to maintain their freedom, refusing to be used by Odium. This could be what is "different" about this Desolation, the edge that humanity needs to balance the scales just enough to have a hope of winning. It would also fit with the themes established throughout the Cosmere books (spoilers for Mistborn series coming). We know from The Hero of Ages that the Deepness was in fact the mists. But more than that, it was Preservation's power tainted by Ruin. Ruin caused the Snapping process to be more brutal than it needed, killing people instead of just awakening their powers, covering the land and blocking out the Sun when it wasn't meant to, etc... This was Preservation's actual power, but Ruin managed to influence it. This shows that the influence of the Shards is not always rigid and distinct. There is overlap and intermingling, where multiple Shards use the same basic phenomenon. That is what the Thrill has to be. Dalinar's first revealed vision, where he fights Midnight Essence, with a poker. The Knight explains that any who feel the desire to fight should be compelled to go to Aletha. The Thrill USED TO BE a force for good, a way of telling people that they were destined to fight evil alongside the Knights (either as a full member or as a "squire." Since then, it has been twisted by Odium into something that makes people lust for battle and death. And without actual monsters around, they turn on each other, or make a game out of war, or almost kill their own brother. Odium is doing the same thing that Ruin did. But maybe it can go both ways. I've seen others here comment that it is odd that the Everstorm seems to heal the parshmen, making them whole again by reforging their Connection (incidentally, because of how we know this works from the second Mistborn series, this explains why they all speak unaccented Alethi). This seems like a very un-Odium thing for the Everstorm to do, especially since they do not seem to be possessed by Voidspren yet. What if Cultivation pulled the same kind of trick? Twisting the Everstorm just enough that it healed parshmen without automatically dominating them, giving them at least a chance to resist, run, be free, what have you? We know from the Jasnath-Hoid dialogue that the Everstorm is "new" or at least working differently than how the Desolations worked in the past. Perhaps the reason is that this time there are forces other than Odium at work on it. There are even hints about this in the depiction of the Midnight Mother. During Shallan's interactions, it is revealed that she was created to sow chaos, but that over time she became curious. Yes, it is a twisted, warped curiosity. But consider her actions at Urithiru. Did she flood the tower with monsters? Did she set about assassinating actual targets? No, she just copied what humans were already doing. Does this seem particularly effective? Or does it seem like a lost, broken creature trying to comprehend these creatures through the only relationship she understands: violence? My point is just this: she has actually changed since her creation. Just like the Everstorm is different this time. Just like maybe the Listeners aren't behaving the way Odium might want this time around. A big theme so far is how the good guys, left to their own devices, become corrupt and fell. But I think Brandon is hinting that maybe, just maybe, the reverse is true for the villains. Odium is banking on how time changes humans, makes them forget why they fought and abandon what they once were. But wouldn't it be poetic if the same was also happening to his forces? The Unmade have changed, however slightly. The Listeners seem to have changed as well. And maybe this time around they will surprise him, make him think that he could actually lose...
  8. This is a theoretical model I've thought up to help visualize what's happened to the listeners. This is all theoretical and highly metaphorical, but I think it helps explain things. The way Parshendi attune the rhythms has always reminded me of radio. They change rhythms the way a car radio changes stations. What if we assume that the underlying mechanism is analogous? A radio uses a metallic antenna, which receives incoming electromagnetic waves. We know the Listeners are closer to the cognitive realm, and they seem to hear the rhythms in their minds, so let's assume the rhythms are “cognitive waves,” emitted by an unknown source somewhere in Shadesmar. So the listeners receive these waves using cognitive antennae. Imagine every listener has an antenna sticking straight up from the top of their head. But it's an invisible mental antenna, a protrusion of the mind, existing only on the cognitive plane. Now imagine a shardbearer riding across Shadesmar, holding a shardblade out horizontally. He would slice off the antenna of every listener he passes. And since shardblades slice the soul, these antennae will never grow back. The victims will be permanently unable to receive the rhythms, which apparently also prevents them bonding spren and changing forms. And since this change is on the sDNA level, it becomes hereditary. Now imagine a shardblade the size of Roshar, sweeping across the entire continent and antennectomizing the entire listener race. This seems to roughly describe what someone (Melishi?) did all those years ago. The Parshendi, Eshonai's ancestors, escaped this fate by (the equivalent of) chopping off their own antennae with a butcher knife. They chose dullform, a faulty form with a stumpy, barely functional cognitive antenna. It leaves them almost as crippled as the rest of their species, but the damage is (cognitively speaking) only skin deep. Their cognitive antennae are too short for the megablade to slice, so their spiritwebs are undamaged. They retain the innate ability grow an antenna, attune the rhythms, and change forms. It just took them a while to figure out how. The Everstorm has now invested the Parshmen of the world with stormlight (or voidlight), allowing them to regrow their cognitive antennae the same way Lopen is regrowing his arm. Their souls and minds are whole again. Stormform, and presumably other voidforms, hear 'new rhythms,' unknown before their transformation. This implies that these voidforms have a different kind of antenna, which receives different wavelengths. The new rhythms and the old rhythms might be emanating from two different sources, perhaps one Cultivation-related and the other Odium-related. My guess: the sources are perpendicularities. Listeners are attuned to one of them just like Vin was attuned to the Well of Ascension. (Burning bronze approximates the function of a cognitive antenna.) Thoughts?
  9. Now that we’ve met post-Everstorm parshmen, it may be time to rethink our assumptions about the Listeners. I apologize if this has been discussed to death in a different way, but I wasn’t able to find anything challenging the idea that the term “Last Legion” was anything but positive. It has seemed natural to assume that the Listeners (Parshendi is a nationality) are the correct or proper type of Parsh-Rosharan. They are represented by relatable, well-meaning characters and have a fascinating oral tradition that tells of a daring escape from Odium’s influence. We contrasted them with the enslaved parshmen whom they pitied for not having forms or hearing rhythms. Now we have a second group traveling with Kaladin who, despite not having multiple forms or attuning to the rhythms, are just as relatable and intelligent as the Listeners. Is one group more “natural” or “better” than the other? What got me thinking about this is the title of the interlude that introduces us to Venli’s research and stormspren, “Last Legion.” It’s also the chapter where Eshonai’s mother describes the Listeners as the “Last Legion,” and we hear the story of how they escaped: I think this is problematic in a series about the loss of knowledge and how it seems to have led humans to forget critical pieces of their history and set Odium’s plans in motion. Why not the Listeners, too? Eshonai even thinks: It’s possible that others have noticed that this history is a bit troubling, but now, especially after seeing the group traveling with Kaladin, there are red flags all over the place. The Listeners believe that they are a self-sacrificing Last Legion, but given that this is also the interlude where we see the Listeners move toward bonding with stormspren, we should consider the possibility that the Listeners are actually Odium’s last legion (lower case). Much like humans have been manipulated over millennia, is it possible that Odium ensured that there was one last legion remaining when the future parshmen had their spiritwebs damaged? It would actually be easier for him to manipulate the Listeners, to trick them into believing that they had escaped, leaving just enough mysterious information for them to figure out how to discover forms that brought them progressively closer to summoning the Everstorm. I’ve also grown increasingly suspicious of the rhythms, or at least the potential to “piggyback” on the signal and transmit information that helps Odium: I’m wondering if the group with Kaladin would need to attune to the rhythms they are aware of—but don’t understand—before they could transform, even in the coming highstorm. At any rate, I don’t think that we can be sure what these Parsh-Rosharans should look like, if they should have multiple forms, or what their relationship to the rhythms should be. Would the healed parshmen eventually die without a spren bond? Are they fine the way they are? I do think we should consider the possibility that the Parshendi (and any other Listeners) were Odium’s unwitting last legion.
  10. Mistborn spoiler tags are no longer necessary, I believe. But amidst all of the discussion about the Parshmen and their severed Spirit Webs and subsequent Slaveform situation, I have a few Random and possibly horribly off base thoughts. We already know that the Koloss are a Hemalugic Construct. Their: Size, Strength, Rage and Battle Prowess were a direct result of TLR's knowledge and insight. Effectively a Race bred for the sole purpose of being enslaved. Through Human, specifically, we can see the Sentience trying to push itself to the front of his consciousness. There is some evidence that the Parshmen (Slaveform) are a direct result of knowledge surmised, even if incorrectly, after the last Desolation. I am rather a proponent of the 'Great Magic unleashed Here' = 'The Recreance'= 'the Severing of the majority of the Parsh* population from their Rhythms' theory. Someone felt they had a valid justification. It happened. At this point, we are still waiting to find out what that Justification was. In the case of Sadeas, specifically, Bridgemen were an expendable resource. Pay them just enough to drink themselves to sleep and send them out tomorrow. Of the 3 forms of Slavery, I think that this is the worst. This was done in full knowledge of the Humanity of the people in question. They were either Destitute and hoping for a chance to improve themselves, Victims of the Elite Societies scheming, or just plain unlucky. It can be argued easily that the Parshmen were utilized as Slaves because they were completely incapable of acting independently with incomplete Spiritwebs or direct instruction. The Alethi preserved the vast majority of the Parsh** population. Perhaps their methods weren't ideal, but here we see groups of scattered Parshmen capable of thought, insight, reasoning and ALIVE . And as a result terribly bitter. The Skaa were another Enslaved race, but Harmony and the Industrial Revolution on Scadrial has helped progress that situation well past Rosharian Social Justice. I guess my biggest point is that we can't equate the Cosmere to Our Universe. The correlations fall flat as soon as they are made. Pre-Industrial Scadrial is the beat Correlate we have, and that is at best 200 years behind Earthly Human History.
  11. We learn from WOR that the Listeners have children by changing to mate form. We learned that the Parshmen have no form but are closest to dull form. Also, we learned the Listeners once only remembered mate and dull form. Therefore, to have children, the Listeners still went into mate form before they rediscovered the other forms. They did not have children in dull form. Finally, Parshman are not immortal, so they need to reproduce their numbers somehow. But Parshman have no form so they never go into mate form. So how do Parshman have offspring?
  12. Do parshmen/Parshendi need to be outside in the storm to transform into voidbringers, or would it reach them even if they were in an (intact) indoor structure? I can't help but think that in Edgedancer, when might have been just the worse possible thing they could have done. And then there's poor Rlain. I think Urithiru* is above the regular highstorm, so maybe the Everstorm can't get there either- but that would still mean he'd have to stay in Urithiru almost full time to avoid turning into a monster. But if he can just stay indoors, and people figure out how to build backwards laits, then he could just make sure to hunker inside whenever it comes. *(And am I the only one who keeps mentally pronouncing "Urithiru" as "Urethra"?)
  13. In the recent Oathbringer prologue reading we learned that Gavilar believes that some kind of acient, powerful spren was used to turn the Parshendi into Parshmen. A lot some people believe this spren to be an Adonalsium spren (and that this Adonalsium spren is the third bondsmith spren), but I have a different theory. A quote directly relating to how a Bondsmith defeated the Voidbringers is as follows. "So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." This suggests that a Bondsmith, Melishi, is responsible for the creation of Parshmen. It has long been hinted at and theorized that the Nightwatcher is the second Bondsmith spren, and this is supported by a recent interview when Brandon seemed to believe that the fandom knew who the second Bondsmith spren is. It struck me that the Nightwatcher has displayed the ability to change beings and their spiritual or cognitive aspects. I think that it would make sense that Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher would be able to 'curse' the Parshendi into the state they are in now, or at least persuade the Nightwatcher herself to do so. What are your guy's thoughts on this new info?
  14. Random question, how do Parshmen breed? I know regular Parshendi change into mate form in order to breed, but I think someone would notice if a Parshman snuck away and returned looking completely different. Another question, are all Parshmen just Parshendi in dull form? I know in the book it was said the dull form is used to spy on the humans so I assumed that all Parshmen were just Parshendi in dull form. I guess that they could just be a separate tribe of Parshendi that was found and enslaved, it was said that once the only forms known were dull form and mate form. What do you guys think?
  15. So, if Parshmen don't mate unless in mateform, where do humans get more Parshmen slaves from? I assume that they die like normal beings, and we have seen them die, but how to they replace those numbers? This may be explained in the books and I just missed it, but it confuses me.
  16. hello guys this is my first post hope this makes sense here goes my theory i ve just read books 1 and 2 and just been reading theorys on various forums but i havent come across this one yet as such. it stuck me as i was reading eshonai's interludes when she was talking about the differences between listener/voidbringer forms that it seems to involve captured spren. she alludes that the listeners decided to denounce their gods and chose to become dull form/parshmen out of choice and this lead to a racial cleansing of all memories of other forms/songs that could turn them into servents of their gods. it stuck me as their wasnt a time reference to when this happened and my mind linked it to the stories of cities worth of spren being killed during the KR recreance. Also, there is no reference of when the parshmen were enslaved. In dalaners visions before feverstonekeep there are no parshmen around but in the time the story takes place there are everywhere in all cities/towns. i thought this was odd untill eshonais interludes. this might seem long winded and im probably joining a few other theories (sorry for any liberal plagiarism) but i beleve that after the heralds abondoned the oath pact, the KR became more fragmented as hinted in the back stories on each chapter in WOR. that the nations and orders became fractured and started in fighting. those quotes hint of trechery and whole orders turning on one another. after while they stopped functioning as a whole and abandoned Urithiru fighting off voidbringers/listeners. during this time they learnt of the braking of the oaths. (maybe from one of the heralds) and felt betrayed. During this period of time a faction of the voidbringers atuned into that song of peace of internal screaming stormform eshonia found and decided to brake form their gods. They seperated from the voidbringers forms that the now fractured KR were fighting and made a plan to turn all listeners into dullform/ parshmen. they made a plea to KR. the KR feeling betrayed and tired of fighting came together one last time to try and solve the voidbringer and a potential new desolation by forcing the spren to turn voidbringers into their dullforms/parshmen. this whole act betrayed their oaths and they caused their own bonded spren to die. Eshonai notes theire is little difference between dullform/ parshmen. Maybe the dullform/listerners where the group that choose the path to cleanse their race and stop desolations and the parshmen are the voidbringers that where forced by the KR killing whole populations of spren to change them hence their lack of intelligence compared to listeners because of the violent change compared to the listeners choice. After which mankind enslaved the parshmen. i belive the recreance might have resulted from the desperation the KR fractured and betrayed by the heralds oathbraking and attempting one final combined 10 ordered effort to stop another desolation being convinced by the listeners/parshendi.They might have thought this would be the only way as only one herald was left to fight in damnation. i belive they thought the heralds had abandoned the world and nations and would not be around to help rebuild the orders in time if another desolation came so their bonded spren scraficed themselves staying in shard/pate form for future generations to be used to defend roshar. this is why they abdoned the shards at towns/forts and cities rather than hide them so the peoples of roshar would have a chance to fight back having the heralds forsake their duty. anyway i hope this long winded theory makes sense
  17. Everybody seems to assume that the parshmen are the voidbringers and probably they are. but what if the aimians are the voidbringers or the chasmfiends. Would be cool if we get a twist there.
  18. I assume that Parshmen will be turned to Voidbringers by the Everstorm (Stormfather says so also). I further assume that Parshendi have a choice (Rlain and escapees). I assume that Parshmen can take on other Parshendi forms: dullform, mateform, warrior, ... Kaladin is going back to Hearthstone. Should Kaladin take Rlain somewhere to start converting Parshmen to Parshendi. Obviously, anybody who doubts that their slaves will become Voidbringers will not want them to become Parshendi. Politics and slave ownership aside, the humans are better off with allied or neutral Parshendi than Voidbringers, so they should be converting all the Parshmen they can to Parshendi. I assume that Parshendi would need to be emancipated, but that is a separate issue. I can't see anybody agreeing to free or change their slaves until they see the danger, but by then it will be too late. Should Kaladin and Rlain just do it to people's slaves because it's the right thing? Does this make sense or have I lost it?
  19. I have just finished listening to tWoK audio book and I noticed something. When Kaladin first uses the Parshendi bones to protect bridge four, the Parshendi become enraged. When they are forced to retreat by Sadeas' cavalry, they make a strange gesture to Kaladin: They cup a hand to their ear and then point at Kaladin (I do not have the book with me to dig out the quote but will find it later). This gesture could be just a general expression of anger or promise of retribution (like running a finger across your throat in the real world) but maybe it is something more... Maybe the reason for the reverence of their dead comes from the fact that Listeners (Parshendi / Parshmen) can still hear their dead (maybe from the spiritual / cognitive realm). Therefore the strange gesture means "We can hear you" (similar to the real world threat "we know where you live") or something like that. Now I know, I know... I am extrapolating massively from a single line of the book and a single gesture of the Parshendi made in anger. Flimsy does not even begin to cover it Any opinions from the assembled?
  20. "They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest." "...I believe it may reference the Voidbringers" page 471: Chapter 30: Darkness Unseen. "They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see." page 499: Chapter 33: Cymatics. "Born from the darkness, they bear its taint still, marked upon their bodies much as the fire marks their souls." Page 553: Chapter 38: Envisager First Theory: Odium will take control of the peaceful Parshmen and suddenly change their form and they will be very dangerous. (Possibly used as Voidbringers or just one piece of a much more complex puzzle.) Second Theory: This was a plan that Odium has had for a long time (possibly after the Last Desolation or thereabouts). He foresaw that humanity could not pass up on perfect obedient slaves and somehow tampered with regular Parshendi to make them like Parshmen instead. Now humans took the Parshmen as slaves and spread them across Roshar (Odium did not do this himself rather knew it would happen due to man's nature). Third Theory: These new parshmen will be able to utilize stormlight in some fashion or another. (Not so sure about this one.) Now to combine the theories: Parshmen have been strategically placed (see the second theory for what I mean by this) all over Roshar by Odium, and that in a moment Odium will utilize their telepathic ability and change them into a very dangerous form and then use them as "Voidbringers" or tools of them to accomplish his purposes. Odium or a servant of his will have complete control over them and use them in whatever way he sees fit. I think this is part of the reason why Jashnah has discovered that Parshendi are possibly the Voidbringers. Perhaps it is not the Parshendi race rather the parshmen. Some other quotes that might help this theory: (The green are my comments) "Death upon the lips. Sound upon the air. Char upon the skin." Page 567: Chapter 40: Eyes of Red and Blue. (The sound upon the air could be the way Odium or a servant issues his commands to the Parshmen who have been changed into something much more dangerous.) "They take away the light, wherever they lurk. Skin that is burned." Page 676: Chapter 48: Strawberry (They will be able to take in stormlight and use it for evil) "Flame and Char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness." Page 696. Chapter 50: Backbreaker Powder. (The dark eyes could reflect that they do not have have control over themselves but are rather animated by Odium or a servant of his) ------------------- From another book where this sort of thing occurred: Spoiler from the book A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. If anyone has read the book Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge then you will be familiar with this concept as demonstrated with Skode Riders and the Blight.
  21. Quick and Easy... Theory hats on everyone... Before the last desolation, there were no parshmen, only parshendi who were a nation (the fifth Vorin kingdom??). Maybe parshmen were like criminals in the society... or something. Anyway, they fought for the lightside in the Desolations, but were easier to corrupt due to their spren symbiosis and many of them turned darkide / were taken over by corrupted spren. Following the last Desolation, the remaining Parshendi voluntarily became slaves / gave up their spren and became parshmen. Maybe as a punishment for them aiding the enemy, maybe to protect the survivors in the future. They became parshmen and the Parshendi nations was forgotten over the next 4500 years. The end.
  22. Had a thought on the relationship between Chasmfiends and Parshmen yesterday, though it has been a couple months since I read WoK. If I recall correctly, the released excerpts from Words of Radiance confirmed that the Parshmen do take on different forms. Forgive my haste, I haven't gone back to confirm what I am thinking, but I believe I remember that these transformations have to do with their interaction with different kinds of spren? So let me throw something your way: What if Chasmfiends are the reaction between Parshmen and Death spren? Perhaps the reason the Parshendi are so obsessed with dealing with their own dead is because if they do not, they will turn into Chasmfiends over time.They could even be working for the inverse goal. Maybe it is some kind of honor to be turned into a Chasmfiend, and toying with the body limits your ability to attain godhood or something of the sort? Maybe they purposely sacrifice certain Parshendi to grow gemhearts in this way? It does explain their weird obsession with handling the dead. Now I'm not sure if this explanation has been debunked yet, but I thought this thread might be an interesting discussion, if not just a confirmation that I should stop thinking about this.
  23. Thanks for letting join the comunity. I browse the forums here a bit love the theory crafting. I have a bit of a theory of my own i would like your guys input in, wouldnt have came to me if it wasnt for your forums but check it out if you have the time. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1207-theory-the-parshmen-are-not-voidbringers/page-7#entry61708