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Found 282 results

  1. Vyre used the knife to kill Jezrien and Jezrien flipped out. But he wasn't even a human he was more like a spren. So was the material of the blade Odiumite? I mean Harmony, Trell, Ati, and Leras all had God metals. Why not Odium? And if so is Honors metal the metal that shardblades and the oathgate are made out of. And do we know anything about Cultivation's metal? These are questions that have been running through my mind lately.
  2. If this has been suggested elsewhere, I'd love for someone to direct me to the post. In reading this short scene about Lift in RoW, I came across this quote from her - the wish she gave Cultivation: “I said when everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same. I want to stay me, not become someone else.” I've been wondering if one of Odium's goals is to somehow end or stop Highstorms, so that it becomes much harder (or impossible outside of Dalinar's abilities) to get investiture on Roshar. If that happens, "everything will be going wrong" and yet Lift won't change; she will still be able to use investiture. What do you all think? Any other clues that support or discredit this idea?
  3. So, I just finished my oathbringer re-read and have come up with a theory about the heralds. oathbringer spoilers my theory is that the oathpact bound together the souls of the heralds, part of the reason is probably so that they could share the pain of torture, but also it is possible that this was also done to cement them together to the oathpact. Oathbringer spoilers. The second part of my theory is that Odium will use this to make/ replace the heralds, meaning that in order to stop the fused from returning after death, odium's new heralds would need to be dispatched. thoughts? Any Wob that make or break this theory, or any things that you can point out?
  4. This isn't as much of a theory as it is a notable connection, but here it goes: I always wondered why the Mists in Scadrial never went into people's homes at night, seemingly disappearing at a house's thresholds. But then, I noticed something interesting: At the end of Oathbringer, when the Everstorm passes over Urithiru, Odium speaks to Taravangian, telling him to "open the window" several times before being able to speak with him "in person" as he does with Venli. Why would a Shard, even one trapped in Braize, need someone as insignificant as Taravangian to open a window? That seems almost fey-like from what is basically a god, and it got me thinking: could this be linked to the Mists back in Scadrial? What do y'all think?
  5. Had a thought on Odium today, hadn't noticed this anywhere else on the forums so I thought about making a thread. So I was looking at the definition of Odium. Here is Merriam-Webster's...well one of the definitions. "the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance" It's the "result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance" part that got me thinking All we have on Rayse before he was a Shard is from Hoid's perspective which is in all likelihood biased as you could also describe characters like Breeze for example as loathsome and crafty. I'm not saying by any means that Rayse was good by any means but he may very well have not been evil. After he became a Shard he may have been twisted by the Intent of his Shard like Ruin was. We don't know enough about Ambition to make a clear statement but Endowment considered her a problem and I think that was what drove Odium to start killing shards. It's entirely possible that Ambition did something that Odium felt she deserved to be punished and destroyed for. As for Devotion and Dominion, they broke the agreement between the Shards and settled together on a planet. He could have viewed that as unacceptable and his Intent inflamed that to punish and destroy them as well. As for Honor and Cultivation, there is still much too much backstory we lack which could completely discount everything I've brought up but he ultimately did not Splinter Honor until after him and Cultivation were living on the same world. His hatred towards other characters seems to be focused at sleights such as humanity and the Parshendi turning away from him. I've said before that I'm of the opinion that the names of the Shard is by no means a full understanding of the Intent of the Shard but just an interpretation of the Intent. So I was thinking that perhaps Odium's Shard could also be interpreted as Judgement or something similar but Rayse interpreted in a terrible way twisting him into what he is now. This is circumstantial at best but I found the thought interesting and I was curious what you all might think.
  6. I picked up my 10 year old copy of WoKs a while back and read the back summary and it is foreshadowing a redeemer and a destroyer. I'm wondering if its a red herring, a mistake, or still relevant. This has been in the back of my mind for years, hopefully you guys can help me out! The whole summary is : "I long for the days before the Last Desolation. Before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us. When there was still magic in Roshar and honor in the hearts of men. In the end, not war but victory proved the greater test. Did our foes see that the harder they fought, the fiercer our resistance? Fire and hammer forge a sword; time and neglect rust it away. So we won the world, yet lost it. Now there are four whom we watch: the surgeon, forced to forsake healing and fight in the most brutal war of our time; the assassin, who weeps as he kills; the liar, who wear her scholar's mantle over a thief's heart; and the prince, whose eyes open to the ancient past as his thirst for battle wanes. One of them may redeem us. One of them will destroy us." Is Szeth the destroyer? But he opens the way for Dalinar before he joins the Skybreakers. Or maybe Kaladin who see's parshmen as people he should protect; or perhaps Kaladin's odious feelings against light eyes is the spark? Perhaps Shallan with her connection to a world hopping organization that fears the contest with Rayse? Or is it Dalinar that somehow releases Odium from the Rosharan System? Or perhaps this was a red herring or edited for a change of perspective. What are your thoughts?
  7. So, as a Shard's basic Intent becomes stronger with time, can that be used to resist Odium? If the timer is reset when you drop the Shard, can they form a group and hand the Shard over in a set order?
  8. Spoilers for Oathbringer below. on page 1099 in my hardcover version: “The air around Venli - once crowded by the spirits of the dead - was now empty save for the single black figure of swirling smoke. She’d missed that one at first, as it was the size of a normal person. It stood near Odium, and she did not know what it represented.” ...(conversation between Venli & Odium)... “She swallowed, then started hiking toward the city. The dark spirit followed, the one of swirling mists, the last who had yet to inhabit a body.” Dalinar mentions the spirit on page 1121 as well, as he speaks to Odium through Venli. So, does anyone know what - or who - this spirit is?
  9. What are the Thunderclasts? From Dalinar's flashbacks we see a Corrupted spren dive into the stone under the Purelake and afterwards a Thunderclast rises from the lakebed. In Thaylen City, Venli describes the Thunderclast as twisted Singers. Which one is it, are they Voidspren or are they like the Fused, once Singers but then changed by Odium?
  10. First of all, I am not very knowledgeable about Shards in general, I have pondered here and there. We know that once the 16 Shards after being picked up, made a kind of agreement to 1. 2 shards shouldn't settle in one system. 2. Shards will keep away from each other. There could be more agreements but I'm not aware. So we know of many breaches to the agreement above from what we have read in Mistborn and Stormlight series, also on smaller other works. So to the main topic. We know Shards Honor and Cultivation settled on the Rosharan System which has 3 planets. Ashyn, Braize and Roshar. This system was already in place as it was made by ADO. So my question. Did Honor and Cultivation go settle in Roshar from the start? My theory is that no. Maybe Cultivation was in Ashyn and Honor was in Braize. Roshar itself was already made by ADO and had life there as maybe crem. Maybe a young sentient life. But mostly it was stone. So to continue my theory we can imagine the Shards as their vessels or Avatar. Cultivation was in Ashyn. Hers is the surges. Then Odium came looking and Cultivation knew she wasn't powerful enough to fight against him alone causing her to panic and flee. But then Honor agreed to help fleeing Cultivation by trying to hold off Odium so that she can shelter in Roshar. But Honor got wounded but managed to trap Odium in Braize thus leaving Ashyn completely under the influence of Odium. This later caused the destruction of Ashyn once Odium became God there alone. Meanwhile Cultivation induced a lot of Investiture by her presence in Roshar. Later joined by a weakened and deteriorating Honor. They then mutually agreed to keep fighting Odium together with Honor making sure that he doesn't die in vain using his remaining power to set up various precautions against Odium namely Sprens, Unity (Spren of Roshar maybe), Oathpact, Oathgate, Honor's Perpendicularity, Heralds etc. The Sprens started copying their gods and started doing themselves creating the Knights Radiant. Until Odium started getting powerful enough to corrupt Roshar's magic system causing loss of Investiture and killing Honor finally. Personally I think with Cultivation' future sight she is playing the longer game of waiting than Odium who is like ADD hyper active, who eventhough has future sight is just using it for short term gains. Cultivation is in it for much longer. Sorry about the rambling.
  11. I thought I had taught myself better. I honestly believed that I was done writing dumb wishful fantasies about my favorite characters. Harry Potter killing Voldemort in the most gruesome way my seven-year-old mind could concoct? Those days are behind me. An extended backstory for Breath of the Wild? Begone, thought. One would think that by now I would know better than to write something about the Knights Radiant, Mistborns, Wax n' Wayne duo, ReForgers, Elantrians, and the like teaming up on Odium to defeat him. One would think. And yet, here I am, unable to help myself. So this is probably going to take several posts to make, but that's fine. I've convinced myself that posting irregularly would help ease my conscience. If y'all think this is all just really childish and stupid, then that's fine by me. Heck, I think this is all just really childish and stupid. But I'm doing it anyway. Here it is: “So let me get this straight.” Waxillium said. “This is the Well of Ascension?” It was a little underwhelming. “Well,” he could understand. What he was looking at was probably the most well-like thing he had seen for awhile. “Ascension?” Not so much. “I can understand your confusion.” The man who called himself the Survivor said. Less a man, that was, and more a spirit. He certainly did match the descriptions given in Lestibournes’s texts, however. “Ruin’s power was moved from here, and therefore seems a little lackluster. However, it still works as a Perpendicularity to the Cognitive realm; for up to two people, I believe.” Wayne nudged Wax in the shoulder. “What’s your imaginary friend saying?” Wax turned to the Survivor. “I’m afraid my friend has no direct means of contacting you. What should I tell him…?” “Tell him that you two must take this to the cognitive realm, head to Roshar, and defeat Odium.” Waxillium frowned. “That seems very… specific.” “It is a specific battle that you are fighting now, Waxillium Ladrian.” The Survivor said. “I’m afraid that if Odium retrieves any more Shards that he may become unstoppable.” “I still don’t understand what’s happening.” Wax replied. “There is only so much I can describe.” The Survivor said. “Just head to Roshar. It might already be too late.” Waxillium nodded. “Alright, then.” “Um, excuse me?” Wayne nudged Wax again. “You can’t just make decisions for me, Wax.” “I thought you said you didn’t like making decisions.” “Well, I don’t, but you can’t make my decisions without my knowing about what you’re even deciding me to do!” Wayne pled. “Besides, I need to know what hat to take. Lucky hat or fedora?” “Lucky hat, most definitely.” The Survivor said. Wax frowned. “What…?” “Hats are very helpful. Especially lucky ones.” Wax turned to Wayne. “Well, according the the rusting Survivor himself, you should take your lucky hat.” “Lucky hat it is!” Wayne plopped on the headwear. “When’re we going?” Suddenly, from the caves that Waxillium had entered to get here, a man barreled towards them. “I found it! I found it, I found it, I found it!” “What the—” Wax stuttered. The man shoved Waxillium out of the way as he ran. “Move, fools! Allomancer Jak has come to claim his Birthright!” “Excuse me?” The man shoved Wayne out of the way, as well, who immediately scowled and grabbed for him, stumbling towards the Well as he missed. The man leaped into the Well, thrusting his arms upwards like some kind of priest. The Survivor scowled. “Get that man out of there before the Perpendicularity—” The Well burst alight, and the man fell over into the gaseous pool. Wayne was not over his mistreatment just yet, however, and leapt into the pool of light after him. “Wayne, wait!” Wax yelled, but was too late. The light of the pool began to fade, and with it the hopes of a successful mission. Wax found himself staring into the Well, empty despite the two personages that had been inside it just moments before. “What in the name of the Lord Ruler just happened?” The Survivor demanded. Wax shuddered on the ledge of the Well. “I think… I think that you might be stuck with the wrong allomancer for awhile.” His best friend, Wayne, had just sealed the fate of the Cosmere, by taking Allomancer Jak with him to defeat a god.
  12. I was finishing a reread of the way of kings today. In Dalinar's last vision the storm (presumably the everstorm but it is described as a dust storm with no mention of rain and red lightning, I suspect it could be "the true desolation" instead) is described as turning the rocks to dust; when reading that I remembered that stormwater is described as tasting metallic. Could part of Odium's body have been stolen and mixed into the stormwater/crem, this could be part of why Odium is bound to the Roshar system and why he is so focused on the desolation? Odium would need to destroy the entire surface of the continent to free himself. There isn't much evidence for this theory but I think it's worth considering.
  13. “Once more unto the breach, dear friends...” “Odious” means “extremely unpleasant; repulsive.” I raise this (again) because my magic theory tries to match “primal forces” with Shards. Shards are “primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality.” Odium’s primal force, IMO, is a cosmere repulsive force that breaks Connections. “Repulsive” captures Odium as metaphor (Hoid calls Rayse “loathsome”) and the physics concept of repulsion: “the force that acts between bodies of like electric charge or magnetic polarity, tending to separate them.” I think Odium breaks Connections of every kind, not just electromagnetic ones. Two of Dalinar’s visions show this: Kholinar disappearing into dust (WoK, Chapter 75) and the second Nohadon vision breaking into bits (OB, Chapter 109). FWIW, the humans in the Nohadon vision wither into husks just like the Shade-touched on Threnody, another Odium-influenced planet. Only Dalinar exercising Honor’s bonding power holds the broken Connections together where he stands. IMO, a more precise name for Voidbinding is Surge-Breaking (and it is not a Surgebinding hack): Fantasy writer Robin Hobb also notes that giving up pain deadens one’s human connections: Mine may be a unique view. I keep raising it (as I do the “primal forces” approach to understanding Shards) because of my confidence in ultimate vindication and my hope someone may (at long last) agree with me. Thanks for reading. C. “Will you join in [my] crusade? Who will be strong and stand with me?”
  14. So it's mentioned that Odium is on braze. Braze being the planet next furthest from the Rosharan star. It is also mentioned odium is trapped in bonds he cannot break. The problem is that Odium can't use his full power with these bonds. Odium is definitely very powerful - enough to shatter Honour and send cultivation into hiding- but how much exactly can he do? He maintains much power with his army, and can still appear like he is on (planet) Roshar Once again, if this discussion happened before please enter a link
  15. While re-reading Warbreaker, a question came into my mind - we all know that Returned come back for a purpose, probably based on what Endowment sees in the future. We also know from Odium's scene with Taravangian that in the view of the future, some people are grayed out like Renarin. If I get any of the exact wording wrong, the idea is still there some there are individuals who have become wildcards/unreadable. I wondered if Brandon has said anything about whether the Returned would be similarly greyed out or not. I feel like they would be considered wildcards in a similar way.
  16. In Oathbringer chapter 109 Dalinar and Venli are in one of Honor's Visions when Odium breaks in and trashes it. He does it in a very specific way, by separating each component part. Dalinar frees Venli from the Vision, but is consumed by Odium's golden light and feels like he's being split apart. So ... 1) Is this a form of Divison being used? Division, like all the surges is a fundamental force in the Cosmere that people can manipulate (if invested in the right way). Odium is certainly invested. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5020 2) Is this how Odium splinters shards? Brandon has says his method is distantly related to how the 16 did it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3456 Odium is not looking to splinter shards in a special way he just wants them torn up and not able to be picked up by anyone. Shredding it with this Division-esque power seems simple enough. 3) Is this what happens to the Heralds? I know the Fused are said to be the ones that hunt and capture the Heralds on Braize, but the Heralds that have thought about the torture think of their flesh being torn and being burned. Here Odium tears people apart and in other cognitive realm encounters he burns Venli and Dalinar. Maybe he's forbidden from doing real damage to teh Heralds by some pact with H&C, Mistborn SH spoilers Stormfather mentions in OB CH. 38 that the Heralds would hide on Braize to delay being caught and tortured. I assume from the Fused. You'd think Odium would help though since it seems like he is "in residence" on Braize. To the extent that location has any meaning to a Shard. Wouldn't he be like "guys they're over there"? Shards aren't omniscient, but Khriss's description of the planet makes it sound like there is not a lot going on there aside from some cognitive shadows (heralds and fused). Should be easy for a Shard to detect activity if they wanted to. 4) Is Odium naturally great at Division? Is this why Rayse wanted it, because it would make tearing up his rivals easier? Dividing is a big part of his MO. Both with people and Elantris spoilers:
  17. So while this could be nothing, I was looking through some discussions about stormlight 4 and I started to connect some dots. While it is not confirmed, a lot of the fandom- and myself- believe Hesina, Kaladin's mother, to be originally from Kharbranth. If this is true, we known from the end of Oathbringer that all those who were born in Kharbranth and their spouses will be spared from Odium. We also know that Odium is bound by his word and so he must follow this deal he struck with Taravangian. While I've seen quite a few people saying this deal will end up being bad for Taravangian and that Odium ultimately got the better deal, I think this deal is what will bring about Odium's downfall, not Taravangian's. Now I should say this having any sort of possibility weighs heavily on Hesina being born in Kharbranth, but under the assumption that she is then this means that Lirin is spared by association. And yet, even with this deal potentially protecting him, much of the fanbase believes Lirin will die in Stormlight 4. This is where I think Odium trips himself up. If Lirin were to die as a result of Odium- so be singers, listeners, or corrupted spren- the deal between Odium and Taravangian will immediately become void. And while we don't necessarily know what happens when a shard's word is broken, it is my personal headcanon that a big part of the process for Honor being shattered was that he in some way broke his word. While obviously this has a lot holes in it, I just wanted to point it out as I've been seeing a lot of people talking about the Kharbranth deal and whether or not Lirin will die in the next book.
  18. A couple of years back, I posted a thread about how the names of the Unknown listed in Words of Radiance resembled a bunch of Mesopotamian gods. I'd like to start digging into the new Unmade names in Oathbringer. Previous thread: Other thread I wasn't in: In the meantime, a friend of mine asked Brandon about the Unmade names and Brandon said that he was inspired by real-world sources, but the sources didn't really have any influence on the Stormlight Archive plot. So this thread is just for fun inspiration digging. There aren't going to be any cool revelations about what will happen later in the series. Really. This is me being pedantic and academic. Anyways, I made a handy-dandy chart of the Unmade and which Mesopotamian gods I think Brandon got the names from: Unmade Nickname Powers Source? Yelig-Nar Blight Wind Consumes souls? ? Sja-anat Corrupts spren Satan (New Testament) or Anat, the Ugaritic and Egyptian goddess Nergaoul Causes the Thrill Nergal, the Mesopotamian god of death, pestilence and plague, and Lord of the Underworld Moelach Causes the Death Rattles Moloch, God of fire and chaos; child sacrifices Dai-gonarthis Black Fisher ? Dagan or Dagon, fisher or spear god Re-Shephir Midnight Mother Copycat murders Resheph, a Canaanite/Ugaritic god of plague; often equated to Nergal Ashertmarn Heart of the Revel Partying Ashera, Sumerian goddess and lady of the sea Bo-Ado-Mishram Commander of the unmade? Baal-Hadad? Seems a bit of a stretch. Chemoarish Dustmother ? Chemosh, Moabite god We previously attributed Re-Shephir to Resheph, Dai-gonarthis to Dagon (although he might not be an Unmade after all), Moelach to Moloch, and Nergaoul to Nergal. There's also been some debate over whether Sja-anat gets her name from Satan or Anat. Personally, I lean towards Anat. Anat was a goddess in both Egypt and Mesopotamian cultures, while Satan originates in the Old Testament and is never a Mesopotamian (or other nearby culture's) god. Of the new Unmade we learn about in Oathbringer, Chemoarish seems to pretty obviously take her name from the Moabite god Chemosh. The one wrinkle in that is Chemosh is a male god, while Chemoarish's sobriquet "Dustmother" implies she's a female spren. Ashertmarn is a bit more difficult. There's a goddess named Astarte/Astoreth, but I think it's Asherah, another goddess in the area. The "marn" part I have no idea about. Asherah is also called Asherah of the Sea, or Asheret Ya'am, and "mar" means "sea" in Spanish? I think that's a coincidence though. Bo-Ado-Mishram is a tough one. There's a god called Hadad who was also sometimes called Baal-Hadad (a conflation of two separate gods I think?). If you take a syllable from each name you get "Ba Ad", which is maybe a tiny bit similar? I think I'm on the wrong track with this one. Help! And as always, who the heck knows where Yelig-nar comes from. There's also the question of whether Brandon was taking inspiration from Judeo-Christian demons or Mesopotamian gods. Judeo-Christianity tends to label Mesopotamian gods as demons, hence the crossover. For example, Moloch, Dagon, Resheph, Asherah, and Nergal all get Old Testament mentions (I know very little New Testament stuff, so if anyone wants to chime in on that end that'd be great). This really comes into play over whether Sja-anat gets her name from Satan or Anat; the former is only possible if Brandon was going for demonology.
  19. It's been quite a long time since my last post. During the period, I've finished OB, finally. As some guy here predicted, the book did answer some questions, and I'm noting that the number of queries I'm going to make decrease significantly when compared to the last thread. Here they are: - Let's remember the moment when Shallan hears about the return of Jasnah. At that point, Dalinar has refounded the Radiants, and new people with powers are popping up left & right. So when Adolin says You know what, she's back!, Shallan happily welcomes her princess. Huh? Really? How about giving that news a bit of doubt? She was the only 1 who witnessed Jasnah's death with her own eyes (and hands). She knows that she belongs to a group of Radiants who can create images. She's seen persons with the same power (both Kaladin and Szeth can fly). Of all people, she is the 1 who has used fake personalities to do various missions. I couldn't believe how she reacts when I read that part. - Speaking of her inconsistencies, Shallan in this book makes some stunning turn from the preceding ones. Where is her curiosity? 1 of the scenes I remember the most was when she jumped off the ship to be able to watch a santhid. Now she barely questions anything. OK I do know that in OB she's torn between 3+ personalities. But even when the true Shallan surfaces, I can hardly see traces of her inquisitive mind. - In a chapter, Dalinar is touched a bit by Odium, and he crumples down immediately. He knows that the god has only used like 0.1% of his 'power'. And Odium himself says he's not used with interacting with humans again, i.e. he has tried his best to hold back. He doesn't have to do anything and the Stormfather is already whimpering in some corner of the world. Now fast forward to the final battle, and during the confrontation, when Dalinar blabbers some words, Odium suddenly loses, saying Oh no! and retreating with a godly tail between his legs like a beaten dog? WTF? Well that's it for the questions. Now here are some of my personal thoughts on the book itself. I was surprised. A few times, a pleasant 1, such as when Dalinar faces resistance from other monarchs - unexpected for me but totally makes sense and great in retrospect. Others, not so much. The story feels incoherent and the climaxes lacking. It feels like somehow BS has changed from the man who wrote tWoK & WoR to this new man who wrote OB. And not for the better. Something has transmuted in him, not really in style, but maybe like in essence. Yes, OB is still 1 of the best novels out there, but when compared with its 2 predecessors, the book wanes. I like the concept "grip" to describe how great a story is. And man, I was hooked by the 1st 2 books. I set a time before bed to read. And I can remember vividly how fascinating it was when I read to the part where Kaladin jumped down into the arena to help Adolin fight, so gripping that I ignored the phone reminder alarm and read into the night to at least finish the whole scene. And you know what? I can't remember any moment like that with OB. In fact, what's alarming is that I found myself drifting into sleep a few times when having the book at hands. What a sad revelation. I don't really know where to point the finger to when trying to explain how or why OB slipped. It's quite hard TBH. So, what do you think of the book? Is it the best in the series? Better than 1 but worse than 1? Or definitely the worst of tSA until now? If so, what do you think is wrong with this last installment?
  20. Odium started doing this before Dalinar had his unity moment. Hence it is possible that he thinks to deny it to the Knights Radiant as the only good way to get into and out of Roshar. Or he needs for his own goals. Indeed I see three basic options Something hostile to him needs to be blocked from going into Roshar. Hoid? Is he that important? Mercenaries fighting for the Radiants? Nightblood? Odium wants to pass something physical into Roshar. That could be anything. Ideas? Does he still have forces on Ashyn after all these years? The perpendicularity offers some way to hurt Cultivation. What do you think?
  21. theory

    We know from this WoB that crucial information about the plot of future books is hidden somewhere (probably in plain sight) in the first two books. Hoid's stories (Wandersail, The Girl Who Looked Up, his Adonalsium talk with Dalinar) are likely part of it, but what about the rest? I think that, unlike in Mistborn, in this case the clues are not only in in-universe events or documents, but in references to real life mythology (this WoB), namely Canaanite one (which provides most of the names for the Unmade). But which Canaanite mythology? Each Phoenician city-state had a slightly different version, with different chief god. The oldest and best understood though, is the mythology of Ugarit (some potential connection to Urithiru maybe?). The Wikipedia articles on Ugaritic versions of Baal Hadad and Anat turned out to be a goldmine of clues. Here is what I found: Baal Hadad, the god of storms and the chief god, also called the Rider on the Clouds, seems to be a clear basis for the Stormfather and Tanavast. His main enemy is Mot, the god of death who wants to feed upon other gods and break Hadad to pieces (Odium). He wins their confrontation, but Hadad finally comes back to life (it's not sure what happens here, due to gaps in the text) Baal Hadad is associated with west wind. In the Bible, when the Israelites escape Egypt and cross over the Red Sea, it's accompanied by strong east wind. They're freed from their slavery by the wind blowing in the other direction to reclaim the their land. Yeah, the Exodus foreshadows the Everstorm and the Eila Stele revelation! Baal Hadad and Anat also win a battle with Yam (sea god) and Lotan (sea dragon). The two may be one and the same, and many people (due to linguistic errors and Lovecraft's influence) falsely believe Dagon to be the sea god (he was a god of fertility and agriculture). The whole confusion about Dai-gonarthis in Hessi's Mythica seems to be Brandon's nod to this situation Mot is finally splintered by Anat, who avenges Baal Hadad's apparent death (she “splits him with a sword, winnows him with a sieve, burns him with fire, grinds him with millstones and scatters the remnants to the birds”). He comes back to life seven years later I believe the last point provides a clue about Odium's fate. Rayse will be killed and Odium splintered with Sja-anat's help at the end of Arc 1. This will probably put an end to the Everstorm and the Fused, even though some runaway Unmade and Voidspren will remain on Roshar. This will not be the end of Odium though – the Shard will somehow reform itself and search for a new Vessel (my bet is on Moash), probably with the help of one of the Unmade or some new splinter created exactly for this purpose. It'll take time, which explains the time gap between Arc 1 and Arc 2. This provides a new twist on what can happen to a Shard (besides splintering or merging, which we have already seen) – and if anyone can achieve this, it's Odium. He's relatively good at seeing the future, has a deep knowledge of how splintering works and his splinters can act very independently, even pulling off an entire False Desolation. The following part is even more speculative, but I would be glad to see it happen Part of Odium's return will be the birth of children with some connection to Odium, possibly certain Voidbinding abilities (some spiritweb modification? Similar to what the Nightwatcher or Sja-anat can do). This works well because: A. It's a great easter egg – it borrows from Baldur's Gate plot and the name of the god there was Bhaal B. It sets up an interesting conflict for Arc 2 I think these children may be referenced in this Death Rattle: The conflict is possibly foreshadowed in Arc 1. Dalinar, even at his lowest, can't kill an innocent child even it can cause problems later. Jasnah, despite her logic and pragmatism, is unable to kill Renarin, clearly affected by Odium. Other Radiants (like Malata), however, won't have any problem with this. This could be the source of a schism between the KR and lead to a new Recreance (breaking part of the most basic Oath – journey before destination). To avoid this, the protagonists will have to find a better way to contain Odium and stop it from regaining it's strength. That's way figuring out the Oathpact will be the major topic in Arc 2 (this WoB).
  22. Ok guys.. I have an out-there idea that I think Odium has been investing on all Planets that he goes to kill shards and he creates Cognitive Shadows by investing in them, imbibing them with hatred and uses them as his minions to help him in his fight against other shards.. So far, we know that Odium has visited Sel(where he killed Aona and Skai), Threnody system(which is the site of shardic altercation between odium and ambition) and right now, he is trapped on Roshar where he has already killed Tanavast and his shard has been shattered. On Roshar, Odium has created Fused that are cognitive shadows that do not pass on to the beyond when they die, instead they return and take up a new body and on and on it goes.. Some of these fused have lost their minds and most of them are so invested with Odium’s intent that they understand nothing but hatred towards human. Fused only wish to win this war and finally, be able to rest by passing onto beyond. Given that there are wobs that say that Odium has invested on all the planets he visited briefly to kill these shards like he has on the Rosharan System: I find it a great coincidence that Odium visited Threnody system and fought with Ambition here and we have Shades on Threnody which are actually people who die and can not pass onto the beyond. Their actions are also very odium-y. So, I think that it is a possibility that these shades are actually a result of an earlier version of the experiment that Odium did on Threnody which was later was greatly improved upon in Roshar. Further, on Sel also we have legends of Svarkiss which says that these are half ghost and half demons. Shu-dereth faith says that these are souls of men barred from entrance into heaven and are condemned to wander Sel, bitterly cursing their fate(very odium-y) and prey on humans. It is also believed that they have the ability to take over the body of living and control their actions, again very similar to how Fused work on Roshar. Although, I think that Odium withdrew his investiture from these Svarkiss and they no longer exist and are mere myth today in the Jaddeth Empire.. Just as he has promised The Fused that they will be allowed to pass on once they win. Millennia later, on Roshar, Fused also would be nothing more than such a myth.
  23. So I think the broken one is Adonalsium. It's an obvious conclusion , isn't it ? What's the synonym for shattered ? That's right ,broken Yes , yes , it's too obvious and u have already thought of and rejected this but bear with me. I think it's more of a metaphor. Like odium wants to be the only God right. That's why he's murdering other shards and maybe that was his motivation to shatter Adonalsium in the first place. So now he finds himself not a god but a entity that has been bound to the Greater Rosharan system for millennia and he has been forced to invest there too , much to his chagrin. Then he's also realizing that killing Shards isn't really that easy as he thought. He was quick with Ambition and DnD , he must have thought it would be way easier after killing Dominion and Ambition whose intents clashed on the same frequency as his . He must have thought the rest were easy prey that he would slash through them in little time and be the one God , but then he had to spend millennia killing honor but at the cost of got bound and he still had to lay dormant for a few more millennia and now he still has to deal with cultivation and even those splinters of honor are still fighting . His Victory is not assured and even if he does it will be difficult to uninvest himself from the system , assuming he actually can break the bounds , his Victory doesn't necessarily mean his freedom and by now other shards are wise to him , the last few millennia have been a great opportunity for them to learn how to deal with him and smart shards like endowment seem to have even constructed contingencies/weapons to deal with him. Shards like autonomy with thier multiple daughter shards will be harrowing to hunt down and autonomy herself or one of her avatars at least seems to be quiet cunning . Then u have harmony , a greater shard who terrifies odium. Then there are the 6 other unknown shards who might have gotten used to thier powers by now and have had ample time to study Rayse . might stand against , defeat or atleast offer a prolonged resistance to Rayse. Many of them might have far better futuresight , a priceless advantage. Then there's hoid , he by himself is a threat and he's trying to forge an anti- Rayse alliance as well. He also had to deal with new developments like technological progress on Scadrial , roshar and Sel and perhaps nalthis. Maybe even taldain. Silverlight shouldn't be underestimated either. So far they have remainder neutral observers but it could change. These humans might in a few centuries be powerful enough to take on a bound shard. Especially If they have Shardic help. Then there's the problem of the Evil on Threnody , which might or might not be Ambition in vengeance mode. Even if it isn't, it's still a possible threat. Then u have the sentiant landscapes on Sel , an unforeseen effect of the Dor being converted into free investiture. I'm imagining they won't be too happy with Odium or odium too happy with them as he wants to kill the stormfather for being a big splinter of honour and sane principles might apply for the selish landscapes as well. Then there's Nightblood and hemalurgy. A shard using hemalurgy based overpowered puppets might easily defeat Odium's forces. They could even create new species like Koloss , kandra and Psalms werewolves to tackle his regular troops. All in all , Odium is in a bad position. Maybe the other shards are waiting for odium to become weaker still by fighting honor and cultivation . And then they will spring upon him. Or maybe odium is doomed to be bound to the Rosharan system in any eventuality. I'm sure odium has given all this and more , enough thought. So he's bitter and he's thinking " Hell , I defeated u Adonalsium but now look at me now ,bound to this system and even if I win , it will still be really difficult to be free again and even if I am , i might still have my work cut out for me and I might get killed myself , maybe even by those puny humans. U have ur revenge. I thought by now I would be the only God and i would reign supreme. U were broken but maybe u foresaw all this , Maybe in a way u still reign ". Moalach might have picked up on this thought and being mindless , didn't really think twice about revealing Odium's thoughts in a death rattle. So yeah that's my theory . Even if my analysis of the death rattle is wrong. U can't deny how screwed odium is , can u ?
  24. [Note: Reposted from older thread, which originally asked us to speculate about Odium's method of shattering shards.] My theory is that Odium's advantage and ability to shatter other shards is tied very tightly to his intent. Consider: 1. Odium's Intent Allows him to Perceive Evil and Flaws in Others Odium (at one point named “Anger”) appears to be an aspect of divine wrath. Divine wrath is not merely objectless anger or hatred, however, it is specifically hatred of evil (E.g. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, etc.) We know that Odium’s wrath is “separated from the virtues that gave it context” – so mercy, justice, and even the principles of “lex talionis” (“eye for an eye”) do not bar his anger. However, to be able to be wrathful about something, you must still have some conception of where it has gone wrong. Odium isn't just wrathful against anything and everything - his wrath has a focus. Whenever I think of Odium, I am reminded of the Demon’s Mirror from the “Snow Queen” fairy tale, described here: I think Odium’s intent makes him see both people and shards in their most negative, evil aspects. He compares them to perfection, and, in so doing, is filled with hatred towards their flaws and vices. It is this which makes him despise and hate the other shards, for he sees the ways in which they fail the people and cause misery and suffering. We see, I think, a hint of this in Odium’s conversation with Dalinar in chapter 57. Odium states that I think he is aware of how the other Shards are flawed and that this leads him to hate them. This explains both his desire to destroy them and his desire to remain unalloyed with their power, which from his perspective would be corrupting. We also see a little bit of Odium’s nature in his choice of allies: he fights with the party first injured in the desolation, the ancient Singers who were forced out of their land by humanity. He sees the evil the humans have done and he hates and despises it, but his hatred has no proportionality or mercy. He is willing to completely destroy even generations which have no knowledge of the crime and wipe them from the face of Roshar. I suspect, even should he succeed, Odium’s wrath would merely turn upon the victors (since they would have killed innocents in the process of victory). In fact, I suspect this has already happened once. I think Odium led the first desolation where the humans attacked the voidbringers, probably in response to some sort of wrong, then promptly switched sides to avenge the attacked party and punish the sins on the human side. In this way, his wrath is an example of the saying “an eye for an eye makes the world blind.” Evil begets evil and so Odium’s wrath is never satiated – he sees all the flaws and will always be supporting a twisted sort of vengeance till eternity end. 2. The Ability to See Flaws allows Odium to See Weaknesses in Shards Seeing the flaws of both mortal and Shard however, would provide Odium with a distinct advantage. It means he can see where a Shard is in conflict with their intent, or where their intent is flawed. He is aware of their Hamartia (fatal flaws). Since all of the Shards are pieces of a complete unity, they each have weaknesses that make them blind to their own particular evils – none of them are perfectly “good” or can act perfectly in align with their intent. My theory is that shattering specifically occurs when a shard is forced into a position where it acts against its own intent or else is forced to face the flaw in its own intent in a major way. In Honor’s case, I suspect he was shattered either upon breaking one of his own Oaths or upon realizing that Oaths were fundamentally flawed. (I think the Herald’s betrayal is strongly tied into this in some way and that it either forced him to go against one of his oaths or else made him realize that Odium was correct and oaths were imperfect.) Hypothetically then, any Shard forced into a position that goes against its own intent would be shattered. Preservation, for example, might be shattered by either getting its power to cause an act of great destruction, or else demonstrating that, by preserving things, it is in fact ruining them by making their natures fundamentally different. Cultivation might be shattered by either forcing it to “burn” its “gardens” or else revealing a flaw in its methods of “cultivation”. Ambition might have been shattered by forcing it into a position of subservience and so on and so forth. I don’t know enough about most of the other shards to speculate, but I think given enough information a flaw in each of their intents could be found.) If true, Odium could potentially be shattered in one of several ways: 1) Forcing him into a position where his wrath is turned inward to attack his own flaws.* 2) Forcing him to confront a being of perfect good which has no flaws. 3) Forcing him to confront one of the virtues which wrath is supposed to be associated with (i.e. mercy), something good which takes into account error/sin and forgives or heals it. * I can’t help but wonder if this hasn’t already happened to a certain degree. We know the Unmade are, at least in some respect, Shards of Odium. Perhaps he is confronting evil aspects inherent in all men (including himself) and intentionally removing these “flaws” from the Shard, spinning them off as separate evil entities and thus making himself “the Broken one”. Alternatively, they might be “distorted reflections” of the evil in either men or Shards that he uses to accomplish his attacks. Cultivation would probably be in a good position to pull something like this off, probably by guiding the people of Roshar, both Singer and human, to rally against him and reject their mutual hatred in a larger version of Dalinar’s refusal to let Odium “have his pain” (i.e. his flaw). However, if Odium were shattered, I think the result would likely be tragedy. Consider the above quote with the Demon’s Mirror. If he is shattered, Odium would become even worse, because his splinters would enter into the hearts of men, Singer, Spren, and (perhaps) Shard and begin to destroy them. Instead of one locus of hatred, there would be many. 3. Possible Objections: Objection 1: An enhanced ability to see flaws may in fact be part of Odium’s nature, but the shattering may still be done by corrupting investiture. Odium would probably be better at corrupting investiture under this theory than other Shards, because he would see the “flaws” in the magic be able to take advantage of this, twisting the investiture towards his own use. Response 1: This is likely true. However, to destroy a shard, Odium would most probably have to corrupt a large portion of their investiture (perhaps close to half) to be able to overpower them. It seems unlikely that he would be able to corrupt such a large portion of their nature, particularly if they found out and resisted. Response 2: In corrupting investiture, Odium must exert some of his power. He will thus weaken himself proportionally to how much he invests. He might, if clever, be able to use this to destroy one Shard if he outfought them. However, if he must use so much power, how can he possibly destroy two? (Which he has done once and is attempting to do again.) In attacking one Shard, Odium would leave himself vulnerable to the other, who has their investiture free and now knows how he shattered the first shard. I think the shattering must instead be something that can be swift and not readily accomplished by the other shard. Response 3: If the corrupted investiture is formed by the power of two shards, why can the other Shard not attack Odium through the same route? You say because the other shard has invested more in the world. But if Odium is investing some power in the other Shard’s magic, why can that Shard not turn the corruption against him? Response 4: Some of the suggested corruptions do not seem to be influenced by Honor. The unmade in particular do not appear to have anything honorable about them. I do not see any good reason to believe they are large chunks of Honor’s power that have been corrupted (at this time). The voidsurges DO seem to be corruptions of the Nahel bond, but this bond was first formed by Spren, who figured out how to mimic what Honor did with the Honorblades. Though I suppose it’s possible that the formation of the voidish surges was a corruption of Honor’s investiture, I’m not sure of this. Response 5: If Odium uses the corruption method, then Honor should have been unraveling ever since Odium first formed the corrupted voidlight. However, since they seem to have been around a long time and Honor seems to have shattered relatively abruptly, I do not see how they can be the weapon that did it. Objection 2: Odium names himself Passion and, although Brandon implies he is partially deceiving himself, his words and methods seem to imply that there is in fact some truth to this. Response 1: Odium does in fact feel emotion besides anger. Anger is powerful precisely in so far as it mourns the loss of what is good. He thus does experience the positive emotions he states – joy, happiness, etc. etc. – because he must first appreciate these things before he can be wrathful for their loss. He must first love innocence before he can hate evil for defiling it. His interpretation thus is in some ways closer to the truth than the interpretation that he is mere “anger,” but it also misses the mark in that he is not just raw emotion (else his emotion would not be weighted towards vengeance). Response 2: Odium is represented in Dalinar’s vision as a flame. This is similar, interestingly, to the Altar of the Saints described in Revelation, which is fed by the tears and mourning of the oppressed: “I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” The altar is fueled by injustice – by passion, by weeping, by joys lost, by sorrows and fear – but it burns at the foot of the throne of God, bringing their prayers and mourning into his presence, and fuels his wrath towards the wicked. Metaphorically, I think Odium’s flame is similar. The weeping and prayers of the people, their emotions, feed his wrath. In fact, now that I think of it, the burning of glyph wards may in fact be an aspect of Vorinism that originated in the old world and once was (or perhaps still is) of Odium. Response 3: I believe Odium may be using the interpretation of himself as emotion to avoid his own fatal flaw -- the fact that he is wrath unbound by virtue. He thus interprets all the evil emotions inside himself as simply part of a vast "Passion," which of course must contain these negative emotions. In this way, he bears no guilt for anything he does that is evil and need not confront his own flaws. Response 4: Both Ruin and Odium discuss passion, and, we are told, so would other shards. I think "Passion" is probably something Brandon has used to divide shards into categories, much as with the metals in Allomancy. Ruin and Odium possess Passion as it is part of their intent (and apparently the intent of other shards), but they are not passion itself. This was originally posted in the Cosmere forum, but some people recommended that I make it into its own topic and I think it fits better in the Stormlight Forum since I am mostly discussing Odium. Original post: I welcome any criticism and particularly any insight into Brandon's comments that may be relevant to this conversation.
  25. theory

    Here is my take on Voidbinding. We know that Roshar is a very mathematical world (e.g. Julia set) and that spren are based on quantum mechanics. I assume here that, just like quantum field theory, Surgebinding and Voidbinding stem from basic principles: fundamental forces (Surges), symmetry and symmetry breaking. General overview I believe that Voidbinding is actually a fairly simple magic system based on 9 Surges and powered by Voidlight. It may, however, seem confusing because of several factors: A. Humans and Singers bond with Voidspren in a different way B. The Everstorm changed how Voidlight is obtained C. Voidbinding chart (TWoK rear endsheet) is an in–universe document and is not 100% reliable D. We actually see four different types of Voidbinders: Full Voidbinders – nine orders of the Fused, each with a full access to one Surge with two aspects: normal and corrupted Half–Voidbinders – the Regals, bonded to Voidspren, with access to one aspect of a Voidish Surge, normal or corrupted Half–Voidbinders, Half–Surgebinders – nine orders of Knight Radiants bonded to corrupted spren, with access to one Surgebinding Surge and a corrupted aspect of a Voidish Surge. Use Stormlight rather than Voidlight Humans (and probably Singers) bonded with the Unmade (effects vary depending on the Unmade) Voidish Surges Voidbinding is based on 9 Surges (Odium's number). Which Surge is missing? Progression. As described here, Voidlight does not provide the same healing abilities as Stormlight. What is more, each Voidish Surge has two aspects: normal, similar to their Surgebinding counterpart, and corrupted. For example, the Voidish Surge of Illumination comes in two variants: one akin to Lightweaving (“Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men. A form of power, like human Surges.”) and future sight (“Nightform predicting what will be, The form of shadows, mind to forsee.”), which have separate Forms of Power. Decayform seems to have access to a corrupted version of Division, able to destroy minds and break people (“Decayform destroys the souls of dreams.”), while Envoyform accesses Adhesion in a way similar to Bondsmiths (Spiritual Adhesion). I don't think we have enough information to tell exactly what kind of Surge Stormform uses (Transportation maybe, since they can summon the Everstorm from Braize). This version of Voidish Surges also works well on symbolical level: evil is sterile and can only imperfectly copy and twist what already exists (look at Re–Shephir or hemalurgy). As for the Fused, we know that they only have access to one Surge, and we only see the normal aspect of it. It would be very strange however, if Voidish Illumination Fused would be denied future sight when literally every other type of Voidbinder/Voidspren (Regals, Enlightened spren and Unmade) can have this ability. It's hard to tell if all the Unmade abilities count as Surges, but I believe they provide a tenth level of Voidbinding described by Khriss. Voidlight access I believe that every Voidspren is a conduit to Odium and has their own, restricted pool of Voidlight. Regals bonded to basic Voidspren have access to some abilities (Venli's Sipitual Adhesion in Envoyform, shooting lightning by Stormform) that seem to work without external source of Investiture. To achieve something more, however, either greater numbers (summoning the Everstorm) or external Voidlight is needed. The latter used to be provided by the Unmade (that's why it was said that Voidbinding originated with them), but with the Everstorm situation changed and now Voidlight is much more accessible. The Fused have more internal Voidlight than basic Voidspren, but much of it is probably used to maintain their life (situation similar to the Returned on Nalthis). Odium threatens Turash with removing this internal source of Investiture during the Battle of Thaylen Field. As a result of their particular status, the Fused rely on external Voidlight more than any other Voidbinders. Voidspren bond For humans, bonding with any Voidspren relies on specific mindset and environment (e.g. competition/battle for Nergaoul, death for Moelach) and is, by its very nature, temporary. If that wasn't the case, Moash/Vyre would probably bonded with a Voidspren already instead of relying on Jezrien's Honorblade. Unmade, such as Nergaoul, affect people's minds and can facilitate bonding with lesser Voidspren (another argument why Voidbinding originates with them). Because Singers have gemhearts and Forms of Power affect their emotional state, the bond is permanent. Humans can imitate this by swallowing a gemstone, like Amaram did, but it's very destructive. Corrupted spren We know Sja-anat always had the ability to corrupt lesser spren, probably by modifying their spiritweb. Given her willingness to defect from Odium and lack of malice observed in Glys, I don't think her recent ability to corrupt true spren is of Odium. Sja-anat was probably uncorrupted by Cultivation as a source of new agents to fight Odium, particularly those who (like Renarin) can interfere with his future sight. It would explain why Stormlight is used in this case rather han Voidlight. Each corrupted spren one Surgebinding Surge and a corrupted aspect of a Voidish Surge. Now, let's look at the Nahel bond table here. Truthwatchers have a corrupted version of Illumination (second Surge). Second Surge is also corrupted in the next four Knight Radiant orders. There are no corrupted Bondsmiths (you cannot corrupt a godspren), and then we go back to the beginning of the table – orders from Windrunners to Edgedancers have a corrupted first Surge. This way, nine KR orders can be mapped to nine orders of the Fused (by sharing the same corrupted Surge). Nine orders of the Fused can be then mapped (with some fuzziness) to the nine Unmade – that's why there's no Unmade corresponding to Bondsmiths, even though the left out Surge is Progression (which both Truthwatchers and Edgedances have in uncorrupted form). Also, we have 5 KR orders with a corrupted second Surge and 4 K orders with a corrupted first surge – and this kind of broken anti-symmetry would be considered unholy by Vorin standards. The Voidbinding chart (TWoK rear endsheet) seems to be an in–universe attempt to understand Voidbinding (an essentially asymmetrical magic system) in symmetrical, Vorin terms (a reason why modified glyphs are used) – that's why both Bondsmiths and corrupted version of Progression are present there, even though they shouldn't be.