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Found 34 results

  1. Gavilar, sent a box to Braize. It was hardly empty, at least not on the second try. And I think we must assume that he made multiple experiments, just to make sure the result is repeatable. He could have start with an animal or a captured animal spren. But while it is easy to see that a box vanishes and reappears, I doubt he would claim that it reached Braize and returned without evidence. So I see two possibilities, which are not mutually exclusive he captured a voidspren on Braize the box was crewed Now, he could have used a prisoner or a condemned man. But in the end the box was at least also intended for the Heralds. Thus the question arises. Did Gavilar have a facility for creating Cognitive Shadows? If so, did he use it and where are the results?
  2. So, I just finished my oathbringer re-read and have come up with a theory about the heralds. oathbringer spoilers my theory is that the oathpact bound together the souls of the heralds, part of the reason is probably so that they could share the pain of torture, but also it is possible that this was also done to cement them together to the oathpact. Oathbringer spoilers. The second part of my theory is that Odium will use this to make/ replace the heralds, meaning that in order to stop the fused from returning after death, odium's new heralds would need to be dispatched. thoughts? Any Wob that make or break this theory, or any things that you can point out?
  3. This is essentially a continuation of my previous thread: tl;dr version of it: I believe that Near East mythology (Ugaritic Baal Cycle, specifically) predicts that Rayse and the Fused will be killed with Sja-anat's help by the end of Arc 1. Arc 2 will be about Odium reforming itself OK, we can start We know that the names of the Unmade come from Near East (mostly Canaanite) mythology (plus some Lovecraft). Imagine my surprise when I found out that the same applies to selected Heralds and the Sibling: Ishar – Ishara, originally a Canaanite love goddess, then turned into Hittite goddess of oaths, who punishes the oathbreakers. Quite a fitting connection, I would say Shalash – Shamash, Mesopotamian god of Sun and light. Once again quite a good match Jezrien – supreme god (depending on the culture: El, Anu, Amurru, Yahweh). His later name, Ahu, is (given the nature of the letter 'h') pretty much identical to Anu. I believe that the fact that his names typically start with Je-/Ya- is a link to Jehovah/Yahweh (plus he's also worshipped as the only god in Emul) The names of the other Heralds don't have mythological origin, as far as I can say, which makes sense in a way, as in the ancient Near East only royalty (Jezrien, Ash) and maybe high priests (Ishar) would use names associated with divinity. They all, however, share the suffix “'Elin” which seems to come from El, associated with Jezrien The Sibling – Ashur, who represents a deified form of the city of Assur – clearly the same concept as the Sibling and Urithiru Fun fact: staring from Ashur, we can find a nice chain of (probably Easter egg) connections scattered around the Stormlight books. Ashur appears in the name of one of the last Assyrian kins – Ashurbanipal (literally 'Ashur has given a son-heir') who happens to share some similarities with Dalinar: he was known as the king who could read and write (not a small feat, given the complexity of cuneiform and ancient Summerian and Akkadian) he lost his lands in the West, but gained new in the East his capital, Nineveh, had the largest library of ancient knowledge at the time (similar to Urithiru) and was prophesied in the Bible to be completely destroyed (similar to the fate of Kholinar in Almighty's visions) the prophecy from the previous point was made by the prophet Jonah, who was, according to Bible, swallowed by a giant fish at one point – something weirdly similar to what happens to Hoid and a greatshell, as described by Lift Given all that, I can see two interesting theories/implications: The Unmade are Odium's Heralds/Honorblades: I have assumed for a long time that the Unmade would be the Bondsmith godspren (or maybe Truthwatcher godspren) for Voidbinding, but in the light of the new evidence I believe they are the equivalent of the Heralds instead. It makes sense: they are superpowered beings using their Shard's power on a hostile Shard's territory, trying not to get captured. They are also not exactly efficient – Yelig-nar uses his hosts up rather quickly, as the Honorblades use Stormlight The new, evil Oathpact As I wrote above, I believe that Arc 2 will include reforming Odium. We know that: there is no Unmade corresponding to the Order of Bondsmiths Ishar is a crazy, egomaniac Bondsmith who possibly wants the death of all mankind Arc 2 will be about figuring out the Oathpact Based on that, a possible mechanism of Odium's return is a new, evil Oathpact on Roshar - one between Ishar and the Unmade. It could be enough for Ishar to Ascend and bring Voidbinding (10-based, Voidspren bond based magic system) to Roshar – essentially a twisted version of what Dalinar tries to achieve with Honor and the KR in Arc 1
  4. So, this is probably just conjecture on my part, and may or may not have been said before, I don't know, but my theory is that as a part of gaining the time break between books 5 & 6, Dalinar is going to assume enough of Honor's power to forge a new (or at least rebrand the existing) Oathpact. Since I think I remember that Brandon has said Kaladin won't be a major character in the second arc, my theory is that he and some of the other new radiants will sacrifice themselves to become cognitive shadows/heralds and give humanity a breather. I say sacrifice in part because I did see a Brandon quote that said that in order to become a cognitive shadow, a person's physical body has to die. Since the heralds are confirmed to be cognitive shadows returned to physical form by an unknown mechanism, something is going to have to kill the new heralds. Though this raises questions for me like: Does the herald speak oaths before they die and become a shadow? What happens to a bonded spren if the person they're bonded to becomes a shadow immediately upon their death? Would the bond be renewed? Because we know from that pesky Nale that cognitive shadows can forge a Nahel bond with spren. And frankly, I don't think Kaladin would do well as a Herald without Syl to back him up. Thoughts?
  5. In hindsight Nale has failed. Taln broke and a desolation has started. It would be easy to conclude that he was a fool and needlessly slaughtered people. However, would that be correct? The interaction of Odium and Dalinar strongly suggested that Dalinar could rescind the oathpact. There is also Gavilar's experimentation with the black spheres. Is it possible that Radiants could actually trigger a desolation?
  6. Heralds all have their Honorblades and spendid power, but when they die, they go to Damnation and be tortured. We think they're tortured because it's part of the Oathpact, but could it be that they were tortured before the Oathpact? Say the torturing was the bane for the boon of Honorblades? It's easy to think Honor handpicked the Heralds and gave them swords and power, as the swords are called Honorblades. But what if they're called Honorblades only because Honor made them? It could be forged by Honor and then given to the Heralds by Heralds by Nightwatcher as a boon. Say, they asked for power to fight a demon coming to their world. The Nightwatcher then gave them power and weapons to fight, but also made them tortured after they were killed. Then when Honor and Cultivation wanted to trap Odium to Roshar, they thought of those souls tortured in Damnation, and gave them another chance to be alive and fight again. And the oath for the pact was not that they should be tortured, but that they should fight and win. After some more thoughts, I think it will be very unwise to let your enemy torture your champions. What if he tried to tempt them and convert them to his side? Torturing them is not the best thing to do when you have your enemy's champions, even if you hate them so much. You should try to treat them and talk sense (or betrayal) into them. The torturing should be from the champions' side, and it is very realistic, as champions are so often deserted by the crowd and the crown if they live long enough. Now, if it was Cultivation or Honor torturing the Heralds on Damnation, Damnation may not belong to Odium after all. There was a Tranquilline Hall, a Damnation, and roshar in the star system. The Listeners were the natives of Roshar and was the original worshipper of Honor. Humans were the natives of the Tranquilline Hall and brought Odium over. So Damnation belongs to Cultivation from the beginning! Cultivation may have been a mad scientist and say caused some greenhouse effect like disasters to happen and made her world Damnation. People hated her so much and Odium was attracted by the hatred into the star system. He got onto the only planet without a shard and later went with the humans there to Roshar, which had its own climate problems (the high storms).
  7. <Mistborn Spoilers> This (trapping a shard for a period of time) however, isn't a unique occurrence in the Cosmere. Honor used the Oathpact to limit Odium's influence on Roshar. What I'm proposing is that what Tarnavast did to Rayse is the same thing that Leras did to Ati, using cognitive force concentrated in a physical form to hold the power of a shard, however instead of using his own cognitive aspect, he used 10 Heralds instead. Every 1024 years the well of ascension would fill with investiture, what I'm saying is the sort of outlet to Ati's power, stopping the whole system from breaking by using the excess. Tarnavast however, didn't create such a system, and instead used humans (shored up with a little of his own power) to prevent Rayse from escaping his prison. Since humans work different to Shards however, the Heralds had to physically be at the site of the prison, and so could be broken by Odium (creating the Desolations).
  8. Stormlight Spoilers So from the beginning, the abandonment of the oathpact was a big deal, the Radiants abandoned their job. But wasn't the oathpact necessary to keep the voidbringers at bay? So when the series or arc is over, whichever resolves the voidbringer problem, will a new oathpact need to be formed? Honor does not exist anymore, but Dalinar is portraying shard-like characteristics, so maybe he would be able to re-form it? Or perhaps Wit/hoid will have something to do with it. Regardless of how it would be done, is it necessary? Will they shatter Odium for good this time? If they do form the oathpact again, who will the heralds be?
  9. Just a wild idea that came to me when I was reading a Brandon forum. There were 10 Heralds for the Oathpact, right? And supposedly 10 books will be published for the SA series, each book with a focal character. What if those 10 focal characters will be responsible for taking the place of the previous Heralds? It would be a suitably melancholy end to the series — I would be satisfied with it, anyway. Additionally, Brandon noted that the series will be split into two sets of 5. I think it'd make sense if the first half of the story was focused on the Radiants rise to power, and the last half was focused on their end. With their end would come the end of the Desolations, as well, which would make for a distinct close indeed.
  10. Hey all, After reading OB and understanding the Oathpact's purpose and the importance of the Everstorm (now we understand what Jasnah meant at the end of WoR, don't we?), I have thought of something I want to share. As we know, in the current Desolation the Fused can return in the next Everstorm after been killed, as opposed to all previous Desolations (except for the first one, because you know, roles reversed and all that). Given that the Fused are formidable opponents even to the Radiants (at least the 3rd Level Radiants, the ones we have so far), this is a big difference. But maybe there is a solution for this! Since it is known that when the blade (Nightblood) inflicts a wound, it vaporizes and destroys on all three realms, Cognitive, Physical, and Spiritual, maybe it can be used to destroy Fused for good. This is (I think) good for everyone, since we have seen that not all re-Connected parshmen are really into fighting, the Fused being the ones that really hate humans. Since possessed listeners are already dead, killing Fused with Nightblood is not killing listeners. This may be a big step towards ending the listener-vs-humans conflict, so they can present a unified front against Odium. I'm sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere! Edit: formatting
  11. A sudden thought. Dalinar is a Bondsmith of Honor. Honor is dead. Odium talks to Dalinar and implies that Dalinar has the power to release Odium from the contracts/bonds Honor has placed on Odium. My conclusion from this is that in becoming the Bondsmith of Honor - by virtue of Honor being dead - Dalinar has become essentially the Executor of Honor's Will, and can enter new contracts, and modify existing contracts/Oaths on Honor's behalf. One of these contracts is the Oathpact. Thoughts?
  12. We learned a lot of information in Oathbringer, and it's taken me quite a few days to process what I've read. A lot of that processing seems to happen as I'm lying in bed half asleep, and that is where this theory comes from. TDLR; Surges came first, Honor bound them to Heralds and his Investiture via the Oathpact, and this was done to help stop surges from destroying Roshar during Desolations. Now that the TLDR is out of the way, let me actually explain where my brain went with this. 1. Humans, according to OB, came to Roshar because they'd destroyed their home with Surgebinding. -- I believe that it's being called surgebinding because that's how the powers are known on Roshar at this time. My theory postulates that humans had Surges, ALL surges, in an unchecked manner and this led to the Cataclysm on Ashyn (likely) or whatever their original home was. They were able to use Surges because it it simply just channeled/focused Investiture. It did not *require* Stormlight, but whatever the equivalent is where they are from. 2. Humans came to Roshar, as refugees, Odium followed them, and they were accepted there. -- At first they settled in fine, but then decided they wanted more... seems plausible. In the book we're told the humans were the enemy in the first Desolation (if not some of the first few Desolations). I can buy this. They would have been seen as invaders, as is evident by the Fused's hatred of humanity. There are still remnants of human worship of Odium on Roshar (in the form of Thaylen Passions, as one example). 3. Odium is the side with the most Passion. -- I believe the reason Dalinar's visions show humans fighting humans fighting parsh, et al, is because there were not distinct sides. Odium basically liked to stoke the coals and cause a ruckus in order to inspire passion. Early Desolations were a manifestation of this I believe, and throughout the years people simply gravitated to the side they were more comfortable with. 4. Early Surges were unchecked. Hence, the Oathpact. -- Here comes part of the meat of my theory. I believe early use of surges were unchecked, and all surges were accessible by anyone who drew upon Investiture to use them. This made them extremely dangerous. Also I believe ANY Investiture could fuel them. Therefore my theory postulates that 9 of the Heralds (not Taln) were men and women who could use all surges AND were in positions of power in Roshar were chosen by Odium during the creation of the Oathpact. The Oathpact was a way for Honor to allow Surges to remain on this world, but be limited and bound by oaths, so as to not destroy it like it did the previous world humans occupied. Taln was selected by Honor. I don't necessarily think the Heralds were told they were selected or by whom. I also think this is why today it's called Surgebinding. Honor literally bound the Surges, and bound them to HIS Investiture, created the Honorblades as a way to limit how many surges of what type could be used in conjunction and that this is the basic idea of the Oathpact. Honor did not want these surges on Roshar all the time, so the agreement was made that after each Desolation the Heralds would go to Damnation to give humans time without them. I don't think Honor counted on the Spren trying to mimic the Honorblades. The KR were then formed to keep the spren in check and to keep humans further bound by oaths in order to use Surges. This was all rolled into the Oathpact. EDIT: After reading some WoBs I'm adjusting my theory a bit to account for information I did not have while sleeping... 5. Odium sidesteps the Oathpact. -- Once the Surges were no longer free to be used by anyone, Odium was at a disadvantage. He began by torturing the Heralds, trying to corrupt them. I think their Connection to Honor was too strong to be corrupted, so he turned to the next best thing... the spirits of the dead parsh from the early Desolations. (He still tortured the Heralds, as we know, and he did so to begin new Desolations as soon as he could following the last one). He couldn't allow them to use Surges, since he Surgebinding is bound by the Oathpact, but he sidesteps this with what we know as "Voidbinding", a corrupted version of Surges, likely powered by one or more of the Unmade. This is legal since the Unmade are not likely part of the Oathpact. 6. The Death of Honor. -- Wild tin-foil part of this theory is that the Heralds themselves, with the help of Odium, killed Tanavast and splintered Honor. WHY??? Why would the Heralds do this?? Because he was weakening. I posit that the Heralds believed that if Tanavast was killed someone would take up the Shard and strengthen Honor and keep the Oathpact strong. Odium swooped in and Splintered Honor before that could happen. This is all extremely unlikely, but it kind of fits the narrative I have going here so I forced myself to write it anyway. So, here we have it. This is what I ended up with after digesting the information given to us in Oathbringer. I only have a physical copy of the book, so I don't have actual quotes in this post, but I can probably work to find some. I'm pretty happy with this theory, even though I'm probably wrong in most, if not all, of it, but it's what my brain concluded while I was asleep so I thought I'd share and see what the other more-cosmere-aware folks here thought about it.
  13. Hey 17th Shard, My best friend shared with me an interesting theory that I wanted to run past you. He is not much for the forums but he did say he would be OK if I shared it here. I took his idea and built up a quick assumption list to help solidify his insight. Assumptions: 1. Bondsmiths can make and break Nahel, and other, bonds between a person and a spren. This assumption is not, necessarily, pivotal to the theory but perhaps the Bondsmiths are the ones who figured out what to do. 2. There is some sort of fundamental, underlying principles that dictate how these bonds are formed. Perhaps it is the innate system of the Rosharan system that makes the rule, perhaps Honor/Cultivation have a hand in it, perhaps it is a mix of those two, or perhaps it is something else altogether. Whatever the reason is, I do not think it is too big of a stretch to say that Brandon would create governing principles for the Rosharan magic systems. 3. The Knights Radiant of old (pre-Recreance) knew that Parshendi (or Parshmen) were Voidbringers. Or, since there is some debate about what a Voidbringer actually is, we might say that the Knights Radiant of old were aware that Parshendi/Parshmen were involved, somehow, with Desolations and Voidbringers. Theory: The Knights Radiant, knowing that Parshendi were related to the Desolations/Voidbringers (see assumption 3), discovered a way to break (see assumption 1) the underlying magical principle (see assumption 2) that allowed Parshendi to bond with Voidspren. In doing so, however, they also had to break their own bonds as well because the underlying principle applied to both their Nahel bond and the Parshendi bond. The Recreance was a direct result of the Knights Radiant deciding to give up their bonds because they thought it would forever prevent the Voidspren from bonding with the Parshendi again. We know that one Order of Radiants (possibly the Skybreakers) secretly kept their bonds which means that whatever a Bondsmith (see assumption 1) did to break the underlying principle (see assumption 2) was not completely successful - either due to the Order that secretly refused or perhaps because the Bondsmith just did something wrong. This mistake/accident/betrayal meant that some of the Parshendi remained Parshendi (Eshonai's people) and most turned into the Parshmen. This also means that the line in the Diagram about Taravangian possibly reusing the secret that broke the Radiants before could be referring to this. If the current Radiants were told that they could break all of the Voidspren's bonds with Parshendi by sacrificing their spren what would Kaladin, Shallan, and the others do? Could they justify to themselves not doing this? If they could save the world by sacrificing their spren... well, I think it would be hard for them to refuse. What say you Sharders? Is it possible that the Recreance was caused by the Knights Radiant delibrately trying to break the bonding process so that Parshendi could never again join with a Voidspren?
  14. I theorize the Heralds are humankind’s personification of the Divine Attributes. Those Ideals – the Heralds in Shadesmar spren form – IMO fend off Odium at the place Roshar’s and Braize’s subastrals meet. Judging by the Shadesmar map, I think Roshar is a major Shadesmar crossroads. I suspect Braize, the farthest planet of Greater Roshar, has only one Shadesmar passage back into the main channels – the planet Roshar. Somehow Odium is boxed in on Braize. The Oathpact binds the Heralds to stand at Roshar’s gates and keep Odium out. Like the Returned, which Brandon says is the same magic system, I think Honorblades are splinters bound to the Heraldic Ideals. On Roshar, alignment with an Ideal determines the strength of the bond that gives power. I think this must be true of Heralds, since spren modeled the KR on the Heralds. IMO, as humankind’s belief in the Heraldic Ideals strengthens, the bond between the Honorblades and Heralds also strengthens, increasing Heraldic power. As belief fades, the bond – and the Heralds’ power – weakens. This may explain the Sons of Honor’s actions (with reverse causation). I believe Odium attacks the Heralds’ strength in two ways. First, he seeks to undermine human belief in the Heraldic ideals. Second, he directly assaults those Ideals in their spren form. IMO, Odium’s power severs bonds. That what hate does – it generates power but consumes you. Odium’s power tries to sever the weakened Ideals from their bond with Honor. IMO, the Heralds’ torture is Odium’s bond-severing power melting through their bonds. Over time, Odium’s power breaks the Herald’s bonds. Desolation spills into Roshar. The Heralds cry havoc, and war comes to the Physical Realm.
  15. I mention this idea on another thread and flesh it out here. Many theories highlight the difference between Surgebinders and Knights Radiant. These theories look at these two quotes, the first from in-world Words of Radiance, the second from Dalinar’s Nohadon vision: Theorists conclude the original Surgebinders are not bound by the Knight Radiant oaths. I agree. Here’s my take on what Ishar and Nohadon do and what IMO the Herald's Oathpact's oath is. Ishar’s “was the most important part at their inception.” I think he imposes his “precepts and laws” when spren first grant Surges to men. He organizes the Orders, and I think he imposes the first oath: “Life Before Death. Strength Before Weakness. Journey Before Destination.” IMO, that oath creates the Nahel bond. Since Ishar requires no other oaths, oath makers instantly become full-powered Surgebinders. Nohadon later laments that Surgebinder Alkavish “brought us to war before the Desolation,” weakening humanity. (WoK, Chapter 60, Kindle p, 850.) The problem is the spren less discerning than honorspren; if they choose a bad bond-buddy, there’s no way to ratchet back the full power granted. I agree with posters who think Nohadon is a Bondsmith. I believe he founds the Knights Radiant and creates the Order oaths as a safety valve of phased-in bonding. Unlike “Ishar’s Knights,” as Taln calls them, Knights Radiant gain power as they align with their spren’s ideal. Now the fun and maybe (?) even novel part…Where does the first oath come from? I think it’s the oath the Heralds give to Honor when they join the Oathpact. The spren copy the Honorblades. Ishar organizes the Orders like the Heralds and substitutes the Nahel bond for an Honorblade. I think human Surgebinding requires the same oath the Heralds give. The first oath reads differently from a Herald’s perspective: “Life Before Death.” You will live and die over and over again. “Strength Before Weakness.” Your strength will weaken under torture. “Journey Before Destination.” Your torture will never end.
  16. We know that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. What we don't know is exactly when the Oathpact was formed. Was it in response to Odium showing up? Was it in anticipation of this event? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with Odium? Here answer 1. Here answer 3 Here answer 4. Here answer 6. These all show that Odium had no part of the Oathpact, and his being stuck on Roshar is an indirect result of it. Now WAST time. The creation of The Dor, and the fight with Ambition surely could be felt by the other Vessels in the Cosmere. It could have become obvious that Odium was hunting Vessels and destroying them. While not diametrically opposed like Ruin and Preservation, there could be some issues with Honors focus on Permanant Bonds, and Cultivations more change centric intents. As lovers, they should have become aware of these issues fairly early after moving in together (on Roshar). Endowment splits off a splinter of herself in every Returned. The contests that selected the Heralds were designed to select 10 individuals. While some were martial in focus, not all necessarily were. Chana is noted for her great speed for instance. While Honor obviously presided over them, perhaps Cultivation was also a judge. Knowing that Odium would be coming, Honor decided to self splinter. This allowed him to focus his intent into specific individuals with the traits he was looking for, rather than the randomness of being shattered. A bunch of mini-champions if you will. While it might make him a bit weaker overalls to spreading out his power overall, it might make him more resilient in the end because of the individuals would be known. He might have forged a separate pact with Cultivation prior to this where she would also do the same to a lesser extent with the chooses, thus giving her a seat at the judgement. This would have allowed Brandon to state that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds, and not mention her. Now if each was looking for specific traits in the contestants, it would make sense if these became ingrained in the Vorin religion. We have this nice table of essences and relations to Heralds from the Vorinn religion. Divine Attributes Primary Divine Attributes of Protecting, Just, Brave, Loving, Learned, Creative, Wise, Resolute, Dependable, and Pious. I feel that I can tie all of these attributes to something Honor would be looking for in someone to hold part of his power. Secondary Divine Attributes of Leading, Confident, Obiedient, Healing, Giving, Honest, Careful, Builder, Resourceful, and Guiding. I feel I can tie all these attributes to Something Cultivation would be looking for. The individuals selected were to lead the people by being living representative of these ideals. Honor splintered off a fairly large bit of Investature to each, and Cultivation a smaller. But this infusion of Investature would seek to enhance these traits in each individual over time becoming more and more a part of their intent. Since they had strength in particular focuses these would be exemplified. Now this large amount of Investiture would probably have affected their life spans as we have seen on Nalthas and on Sel. Having extremely long lived individuals exemplifying ideals should lead to a highly stable society. Thus the Tranquiline Halls mythology. An almost to perfect society, yet not stuck on the now but also the future do to Cultivations influence. The Heralds had to make the Oathpact with Honor, but what was the Oath. TO UPHOLD THE IDEALS FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIVED. The Reward extremely long life. They would not be Heralds of War. But Heralds of Life. Heralds of Ideals. So then Odium shows up. We have the First Desolation. THEY ALL DIE. But due to the splinters they hold, they all become Cognative Shadows. Odium is set back, but these little fairly helpless Heralds are now trapped. They have held a splinter so long they have been warped on the SR to be almost programmed to stay and uphold these ideals. So each time a Desolation starts they move back into the PR and fight for these ideals against the one who killed them. Because of this Odium is stuck. Every time he tries to destroy Honor, they come back like Army ants attacking his flanks. And by coming back they inspire others to the same ideals. Thus indirectly trapping him in Roshar. He sences that Honor is weak, so his hatred won't let him leave, but every time he attacks, the Heralds show up to buffer honors strength. Thus he starts a long game as I outline in my 10 Heralds 10 Fools thread.
  17. Hi this is my first post so here goes. i recently reread the prologue to way of kings to see what I noticed. Here are the things I only just picked up on: -it seems jezrien as king of the herelds was not based on his position as a herelds but on his preheraldic life there he was a king and so he brought his regal attitude into his life as a hereld -this tells he and the herelds had some sort of regular life beforehand and some event caused the creation of the oathpact -Based on the amount of times Brandon had to explain to questioners the oathpact was between honor and herelds not odium it seems I wasn't the only one who was confused how their agreement with honor gets them repetitively sent to idioms tirture.clise reading leads me to only one conclusion the oathpact must be about their commitment to honor to repetively engage in fight on behalf of all mankind which in and of itself gives odium some hold over them -they gain out of the oathpact some sort of vague minute chance of victory that they have never acheived. When they our leaving the iathpact when jezrien tries to claim as long as tank is still there it will hold he is saying they are not forfeiting that chance completely even though both he and kalak don't really believe tank alone can do what they all together could not -based on this when jezrien says who knows maybe it will turn out to be true(about the lie they will tell mankind about victory) he is saying that not as a product of their attempt to break the iathpact but as an excuse they will give for just leaving. They will say they win -this that there is even a need to lie tells me the people know something if the oathpact so there is a need to rationalize to them why they are not returning to purgotory so what do you guys think an I reading this right -oh one last favorite theory of mine.it is crystal clear to me that when adolin makes reference to the ironclad traditions in risharof duals and the rights of the champions to make binding demands that these traditions are based on that cryptic reference honor naked to their ability to get odium to pick a champion and then be bound by the tesults love it or hate it?
  18. Hi this is my first post so here goes. i recently reread the prologue to way of kings to see what I noticed. Here are the things I only just picked up on: -it seems jezrien as king of the herelds was not based on his position as a herelds but on his preheraldic life there he was a king and so he brought his regal attitude into his life as a hereld -this tells he and the herelds had some sort of regular life beforehand and some event caused the creation of the oathpact -Based on the amount of times Brandon had to explain to questioners the oathpact was between honor and herelds not odium it seems I wasn't the only one who was confused how their agreement with honor gets them repetitively sent to idioms tirture.clise reading leads me to only one conclusion the oathpact must be about their commitment to honor to repetively engage in fight on behalf of all mankind which in and of itself gives odium some hold over them -they gain out of the oathpact some sort of vague minute chance of victory that they have never acheived. When they our leaving the iathpact when jezrien tries to claim as long as tank is still there it will hold he is saying they are not forfeiting that chance completely even though both he and kalak don't really believe tank alone can do what they all together could not -based on this when jezrien says who knows maybe it will turn out to be true(about the lie they will tell mankind about victory) he is saying that not as a product of their attempt to break the iathpact but as an excuse they will give for just leaving. They will say they win -this that there is even a need to lie tells me the people know something if the oathpact so there is a need to rationalize to them why they are not returning to purgotory so what do you guys think an I reading this right -oh one last favorite theory of mine.it is crystal clear to me that when adolin makes reference to the ironclad traditions in risharof duals and the rights of the champions to make binding demands that these traditions are based on that cryptic reference honor naked to their ability to get odium to pick a champion and then be bound by the tesults love it or hate it?
  19. So, I was discussing with several people on the Cosmere Discord, and I came up with a question about the Oathpact. I wanted to ask the wise members of the Shard what they thought. Do you consider Heralds to be an integral part of the Oathpact? Or is it more based upon the Honorblades? Is it both?
  20. So, I want to run this by everyone to see if I am repeating something that is generally understood. Odium comes to Roshar. The goal is to Splinter Honor. Honor knows this. He lays a trap. The cost of possible Splintering (edit: of Honor) is that Odium must be bound to the Roshar system and therefore not be able to leave and chase other Shards. Something Honor would do - put himself between the danger and those it pursues. The Oathpact suddenly makes sense. The way to keep Odium bound to a system is to have Odium Invest. How does one do it on Roshar? Give up its Investiture to create a lot of spren. The more spren, the higher one's Investment. So, Odium, by Oathpact, can battle Honor, but in the way that bounds him: by Investing in Roshar, and fighting the spren war. Basically, the voidspren, the Unmade, *any other object* Invested by Odium on Roshar, makes Odium's Connection to Roshar higher. Which is why there MUST BE multiple Desolations - Odium must be permitted to grow its influence on Roshar to the point of active war. And this is why, short of Splintering Odium himself, this must repeat - if Odium's influence on Roshar wanes, he leaves the system and goes after other Shards. So, Honor chooses to play a long and dangerous game with Odium, just like Preservation chose with Ruin. Also explains Hoid's "I sympathize with you, Dalinar, but what I seek to achieve and what you do are not one and the same, and *my* goals are more important!" Hoid wants Odium bound to Roshar. Odium whose influence is purged from Roshar is free to roam elsewhere. Hoid does not want it. The problem right now is that Odium has splintered Honor. Achievement unlocked. Now is the time to leave the system (or Splinter Cultivation and leave the system). To do this, there must be an all-out war that ends with destruction of all Odium's assets on Roshar (at the cost of a massive devastation), and frees him. TL;DR: Desolations and voidspren are the means of keeping Odium Connected to Roshar. Odium must be kept Invested. This obviously skims over a lot of things (like, why Heralds). But overall, what am I missing? Edit: It has been wisely pointed out that the Oathpact refers to the deal Honor made with the Heralds, not Odium. I struck that unfortunate phrase. The rest of the point remains salient: Honor promises Odium a chance to take him out, but Odium must Invest in Roshar to be able to Splinter Honor.
  21. I was thinking on the Oathpact and the Recreance for a while and I came up with this speculation: I don't know if what follows was already pointed out but I would like to read what do you think about it (though it's very far-fetched in some points and has few gaps). --- On the Oathpact, I think we can assume it's a pact between Honor and the Heralds. Tanavast gave them Honorblades and (maybe) immortality while the Heralds had at least two duties: 1) leading humans during Desolations; 2) keeping Odium at bay (trough suffering a lot of pain) between Desolations. I think duty #2 is "possible" according to the following quotes: - In the Prelude, Kalak says: - In Talenel Interlude, Taln thinks: - In the Second Letter it's said: So I think the Heralds talk of "torture" in a figurative sense: they suffer trying to hold Odium captive. When the Heralds can no more bear the pain, they return to Roshar (preparing humanity for the Desolation) while Odium regains his strength. Perhaps it's very arguable how the Heralds could keep a Shardholder captive (though suffering Hell) but maybe Honor lends each of them a fraction of his power while they are in Damnation. I don't know but let's pretend it's possible. After Aharietiam, the Oathpact is still valid and Odium is kept captive by Talenel. But, with only one Herald holding him, Odium had much more freedom than before. Now, I don’t know if in this condition Odium could flee from Damnation or if simply Taln withdrew from his duty but I think that, during the time of Recreance, Rayse freed himself and used this opportunity to kill Honor (maybe weakened from lending too much power to Talenel, in order to help him in keeping Odium at bay alone). After killing Tanavast, I believe Rayse had no much strength for fighting a Desolation but he tried anyway to further weaken mankind defense. He confronted the Radiants on the treachery of the Heralds and the possibility of fighting without their lead (likely meaning being destroyed by the Voidbringers). But Odium offered a treat: there would be no Desolation if the Knights Radiant gave up their positions. So the Radiants accepted and broke their oaths wile Rayse returned to Damnation, waiting for his opportunity (striking when men weren’t defended by Heralds or Radiants and Surgebinding was forgotten). I don’t exclude that (in this speculation) the death of Honor, that perhaps weakened the Nahel Bonds of the Radiants, had a part in their decision of stepping back. Now, in WoR it's said that only nine Orders out of the ten broke their oaths: I think that the latters are the Skybreakers: probably they are trying (from the Recreance until now) to kill other Surgebinders in order to keep the 'treat' with Odium and avoiding a new Desolation. The Order that didn't break his oaths could also have been that of the Bondsmiths: they (and their squires, because there were very few members) could have become Ardents and tried to unite Roshar in Vorinism trough the Hierocracy (against the threat of Odium). But I like the idea of the Skybreakers better. Thanks for reading until the end XD Sorry if my English was bad: it's not my native language.
  22. Hello everyone, I've been Reading Brandon Sanderson for quite some time now. I have also been aware of this forum for a similar amount of time and decided it was time to sign up and partake of the discussion. Glad to finally be here! So, a couple of musings as I make my way through WoR for about the 10th time - Could Honour have ''cheated'' in the deal he made with Odium - we know there are Spren of both shards, was the original gambit that the he who gets the listners/humans etc to attract the most Spren essentially win. However Honour ''cheated'' and gave humans the Honourblades thus tipping the favour of the War in Honours favour? Could Kaladin be being unknowingly prophetic when he says ''I can't hold back the might of 10 armies...'' potential climax of the first 5 books? Finally, Teft is awfully knowledgeable, is Brandon going to throw a slight curveball and Teft is a Herald? I wanted to write these down before I forgot. Apologies if this is in the wrong area!
  23. Now this is a theory that is mostly based on speculation but I wanted to see what other people think of it. Warning mindless rambling may happen at times, just stay with me. Now lets get to it. The Oathpact. We don't know much about it but I will quickly summarize what we do know. It is an oath by the Heralds that returns them to Roshar with each desolation Whenever the heralds are not on Roshar they are tortured It has been in effect for a long time- "Centuries, perhaps millennia" The Oathpact was broken The enemy who is most likely Odium was bound by it Honor is the one who most likely initiated it While that isn't much to go on I'm going to talk about not only how it effects the heralds, but also how that may have effected the Rosharian ecosystem, specifically the starting the highstorms. Now I'll start with a simple explanation of how the Heralds are important in the oathpact: I believe that they may have become bound to Odium. Now this would explain why they are tortured, after all what else would an entity literally named Hatred do to it's enemy's? Now the reason I was lead to this conclusion was in part because of the fact that shards tend to behave according to the principle of intent. (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/369-theory-the-principle-of-intent/) Now Torture is not Honorable, and I would love to hear anyone argue otherwise. But Odium is more than capable of torturing people. In fact he probably does it for fun. I mean if you hate someone then you want to torture them so it fits his personality perfectly. Now I hope I haven't lost you because this is where it gets interesting. What if Honor, Cultivation, and Odium were all originally on Roshar? Now Odium hates everything, or at least he probably does. So Honor and Cultivation, in order to create a society that wasn't constantly in danger of being destroyed, they had to get rid of Odium. So give odium something to focus all his hate on, preferably something he knows that you like (the heralds) and give him his own planet and then hope he leaves yours alone. And if he ever comes back make him bring back the Heralds. It's like giving the bully at school your toy and then just pulling out a different one after he leaves. Now Odium Isn't stupid so I'm sure he threw in some of his own conditions, namely getting to leave a small part of himself on Roshar mainly in the form of voidspren. Now that probably seemed like a good deal, after all what could things with no, or at least very little, physical form do? Well a lot as it turns out. Odium could insert the voidspren into the listeners and take control of them, like how Ruin uses hemalurgy. But every time he moved enough of his sentience to Roshar to control the listeners, then the Heralds would return to. This would explain why they always show up right before a desolation, and also why leaving just one of them could end the desolations, Odium still has one of them to Hate. And perhaps having only one of them return stuck Odium in a sort of limbo. He couldn't fully leave because he didn't have all the heralds but he also couldn't return because he couldn't bring the heralds with him as they were already their. Now all of this ties into highstorms because when Odium returned the first time Honor needed a weapon to fight back with. So give the heralds the ability to access surges(the spren) and give them readily available fuel to power those surges(stormlight). Now I know their will be those who say "well what makes you say that?" "why couldn't there have always been highstorms?" Well the answer to that is that Roshar was once much more earthlike. Shinovar across the whole planet kind of deal. This would explain how there were humans in the first place. Shards have access to a lot of knowledge about the workings of the world. Don't believe me, go read what Sazed writes in the Hero of Ages. My point is Cultivation and Honor wouldn't put something as vulnerable as Humans on a land where everything is constantly buffeted by storms that are as big as a continent and as powerful as, well huricane times ten. Therefore Highstorms must come after humanity and since the Heralds were the first of humanity... well you get the point. Shinovar is the only part of Roshar sheltered from the Highstorms and that is the reason it is so earthlike. Sinovar did not evolve to become earthlike. everything else evolved to weather the storms. I know there isn't much evidence to support that but it's the best theory I could come up with so feel free to poke holes and give me feedback.
  24. Hey all, so I'm thinking the Oathpact might be more simple than we've, or at least I've, given it credit for. The way I see it, Honour and Odium have a chat. Maybe after Odium hits Braize and forces H/C to Roshar. Honour proposes a contest. He will pick ten of his best to face any trial Odium can throw at them, if they fail Odium gets a shot at Honour, or Roshar. Odium, being tricksy, rightly points out that Honour could just never said champions to face Odium's challenges. No challenge is no failure, and thus Odium never gets a chance. Honour is like "fine, if they don't return after a while you get another shot" Odium decides fair is fair and thinks torture is the best way to challenge Honour's champions, perhaps not necessarily in keeping with Honour's understanding of the oathpact or intent but the deal has been made. The reason why the Desolations were getting fiercer over time is because with each desolation Odium gets a better idea of how to attack and make use of his resources. Just as the Spren and Heralds seem to get a better idea of the proper game plan. However, with Aharietiam the Heralds throw a wrench into this plan as Taln is too stubborn to break. Odium eventually gets frustrated and just decides to throw the deal to the wind and go at Honour. Because he's no longer acting within the bounds of the deal honour can bind him, in this case to Greater Roshar/Braize. Of course, Honour is dead, so that sucks. The way I see it, the Oathpact is the specific name for the deal Honour made with the Heralds. Thus why it doesn't include Odium as a binding participant, as per WoB...probably. In this model the Oathpact is like a contract of employment between one company Honour and ten people. I've some thoughts on Parsheni and Odium Influence that I may share later. So, that's it. If anything here is mindnumbingly simple just feel free to cruise on by.
  25. I have this theory about the Oathpact and the reason for the torture of Heralds, the death of Honor, the reason for the Desolations, and the origin of Honorblades that I don't think anyone else has already stated. First, I'll start with a couple references from Mistborn: In Chapter 57 of Mistborn:HoA, Ruin says this: And throughout the book it's made clear that Preservation's sacrifice was only a temporary solution that caused him to give up his mind, but would eventually allow Ruin to escape his prison. Also, in chapter 81 of HoA, Vin was able to use the power of Preservation to push back against Ruin causing her divine body to tremble in pain and agony and eventually die. I know Vin didn't trap Ruin this way, but I'm just pointing out that she hindered Ruin and that fighting a god causes pain - at least when the gods are so opposed. To me, this sounds a lot like the Oathpact. It's called a bargain, instead of a pact, but they mean almost the same thing. There is pain involved. A god must give of themself. A god eventually dies as a result. A god is trapped/imprisoned or hindered in some way. It's a temporary solution. Now, what if Honor and the the Heralds figured out a way to trap (or at least hinder) Odium and make it closer to permanent? Instead of Honor suffering agony for thousands of years (just like Preservation), dieing, and Odium eventually escaping (or regaining full power), the Heralds agreed to endure the pain in place of Honor (how this was accomplished will be discussed below). And what if by doing so, they prevented/delayed Honor's death? There was some kind of bargain (Oathpact) between Honor and Odium that trapped/hindered Odium temporarily, but caused Honor to die, after a few thousand years of agony, in the process. Afterall, would it not be honorable to give up your life to save the lives of the entire world? However, Odium was tricked because of the intervention of the Heralds (this might be considered dishonorable though, so Honor would not be involved in the trick). Odium still escaped his prison (or regained his full power) every few thousand years and it caused a Desolation. He is defeated and re-imprisoned; the Heralds return to the place of torment; and Honor still lives as a result. Now, I know Taln was still being tortured after the "last" Desolation, but what if that wasn't enough to save Honor's life this time, so he died or splintered. There is speculation that this is what caused the Recreance. Finally, I think this original Oathpact is what forged the Honorblades - their origin being hidden in plain sight. Honor had to give of himself to trap/hinder Odium, and the Honorblades are the physical manifestation of Honor's power - much like the Mist is the physical manifestation of Preservation's power or Atium is Ruin's. These Honorblades were given to the Heralds to grant them great power during the eventual escape of Odium. But in the process, because they held pieces of Honor's "body," they endured great torture when they were in the place of torment. I believe that place of torment is one and the same as Odium's prison. Holding an Honorblade and being in Odium's prison at the same time is excruciatingly painful, but it saved Honor's life - until the Heralds (except for Taln) failed to return the last time. Any thoughts, flaws, additions? Edit: modified for clarity and to address some of the comments below