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Found 41 results

  1. Did Ishar forge the Oathpact himself with the powers he recieved from Honour, or did Honour forge the Oathpact? Also, did Ishar create the Nahel bond, and if he did, did he do it around the same time?
  2. So, there is something very weird and not yet revealed about the timeline for the human migration from Ashyn to Roshar, the Heralds, and the Oathpact. From what we are told in Oathbringer, humans came to Roshar and were granted Shinovar to live in, eventually they wanted more land and fought against the singers/Dawnsingers, starting the wars that became the Desolations. But most if not all of the Heralds were born on Ashyn, before the migration to Roshar, with the only possible exception being Shalash. And the Heralds became Heralds when they were the age they now physically appear to be. (See the WOBs at the bottom of this post...) This puts a fairly tight constraint on the time scale for these events; probably no more than 30-35 years or so, if Shalash was born around the time of the migration. Yet it seems this must have taken a very long time. Shinovar is a pretty large land, and much more favorable to human life than most of Roshar - there wouldn't seem to be an immediate need to move beyond Shinovar. And the humans from Ashyn presumably arrived as refugees, not immediately ready for a war of conquest. And furthermore, it seems the Oathpact couldn't have been a response to the initial war with the singers. The Stormfather says (Oathbringer chapter 38; I'm not copying his ALL CAPS): So the Oathpact didn't happen until after: - humans fought a war with the singers - the dead singers became the Fused to fight against humanity further, and were repeatedly reborn - this process continued long enough for it to become clear that humanity couldn't win the war unless something drastic changed That pushes the timeline out even further, as these wars probably lasted years (maybe many years) by themselves. This seems to be a major timeline issue. But do we really know that the Heralds became Heralds at the same time as the Oathpact was formed? The Stormfather says (same chapter) that the purpose of the Oathpact was to seal the Fused spirits in Braize: But then, why do they get Surgebinding powers and Honorblades? How does that help? (This question isn't original to me- wish I could remember who brought it up - but I've seen it used as evidence that repeating Desolations, and thus a need to fight, was Honor's plan. But the Stormfather made it very clear that it was supposed to "end the war forever", ie no more fighting needed...) We do know that the Honorblades were given to the Heralds as part of an oath (Oathbringer Chapter 16, the Stormfather speaking:) But perhaps there is more than one oath involved. One maybe 30 years after the migration to Roshar, when the Heralds stop aging, get Surgebinding and Honorblades. And a second one, the actual Oathpact, after decades of war with the singers, becoming an endless losing battle as the Fused arise and reincarnate endlessly, which doesn't involve Surgebinding but does trap the Fused spirits on Braize. WOB #1:
  3. I think my opinion might be highly unpopular, but here goes. To start with, I really loved the character of Taln while reading the four books. I remember being giddy whenever he had a scene. He was my top fav side character. Just one problem. I thought he broke. I took the idea that taln broke as a fact. I am dumb and didn't realise that RoW in particular was hinting that Taln didn't break. The arrival of the everstorm to circumvent the oathpact and taln breaking in the same time frame was a little too wierd. And then Brandon confirmed it in a WoB. Some fans cheered, some fans were surprised and some fans felt vindicated as they already were expecting it. I was less than thrilled. The problem with Taln is he is JUST TOO DAMN PERFECT. I loved Taln when I thought that he tried his best and ended up giving humanity 4500 years of time. He was a very inspiring character. Now he is a freaking god. Apparently, he still has a lot more years of torture he can endure. He is nowhere close to being done. He is basically unbreakable. Taln, as he is right now, is vey antithetical to the themes of SA, and the fact that nobody is talking about it drives me nuts. First of all, NO HUMAN is strong enough to what Taln did. I mean where would you even cultivate the inner strength to endure so much torture? How can you even reach that level of determination? If instead, you think it's more likely that such strength can't be cultivated, you have to be born with it, it still makes Taln an angel who descended to earth compared to the rest of the humans. Because 4500 years is a mind-numbingly long time! A fact that I feel that many people are not giving the importance it deserves. If a random stranger says that he will die for you, you won't be inspired, you would be creeped out! I feel the same way with Taln. No one should be that self-sacrificial. That is not healthy, that is insane and scary. I would stay as far as possible away from him in real life. Can you imagine if a guy like that got angry with you over something? He might chase you to the ends of the earth. Second, he makes the lives of all other characters kinda pointless. The main theme of SA is that 'broken' people deserve to live happy lives (even after making mistakes). Teft deserves love. Shallan deserves love. Kaladin should not kill himself. Dalinar deserves forgiveness and redemption(debatable). But its very hard to say they deserve anything with the presence of an infallible person who has suffered so much more than them. All their conflicts and struggles seem melodramatic compared to the sheer amount of pain that Taln went through without making a mistake. . If the survival of humanity is the highest moral goal right now, Kaladin's life is just not priceless. It's nothing compared to Taln's worth as an 'unbreakable' human being. Because Kaladin just can't hold the desolation back for that long. Example: in tWoK, Kaladin briefly considers abandoning his friends and saving his own life. In WoR he doubts his own friends' love for him in the jail cell. In OB, he gets angry at Adolin for no reason and chides himself. These thoughts are not ooc for Kal even though he is a windrunner poster boy because everyone is fallible and breakable. Everyone makes mistakes and that's fine. Every character in SA has some insecurity about something, even Jasnah. If i must fall, I will rise each time a better man. Finally, he legitimises the oathpact and trivializes torture. The oathpact is a horrible plan and anything else would have been better. No human should be asked for that much. But Taln makes it look like it was the heralds who were insufficient, not the freaking plan. Because of Taln, the other 9 heralds look bad, even though they were amazing people who went through the saddest times possible. SA is a optimistic series, but if you took a herald as the protagonist and went through their life, the desolations alone would put the series solidly in grimdark territory. They really deserve more respect, but who can NOT compare them to Taln? He also trivializes torture. No way around it. Torture is horrific and inhumane. It scars people in irreparable ways physically and psychologically. In a series with realistic depictions of battle shock, Taln sticks out like a sore thumb. If I am right in thinking that the heralds can heal in braize, how many times do you think Taln's genitals were shredded like cheese? Cuz let's be sure, that definitely happened in 4500 years even if the books will never show it happening ( shivers).( I hope I didn't break any coppermind rules with that sentence) I feel like there has to be an actual reason why Taln did not break. I have faith in Sanderson. Every other character in SA feels real to me. Even the evil ones like Sadeas and Rayse. I am just surprised that most fan discourse I see don't seem to question it and seem to think that Taln just weathered it with his own strength, which I find impossible. He must have had advantages right? If the ans is just that Taln is a Super Mega Alpha male chad boy with a golden heart, I will probably keep ranting about it.
  4. Hemalurgy can take Connection via duralumin. Could one take the Connections that the heralds have, then give themselves those Connections, then somehow "heal", those damaged and weakened Connections to re-forge the Oathpact?
  5. Heralds Madness The Heralds are insane, and that seems to a plot point of increasing significance with Kaladin’s focus on mental health in RoW, Ishar’s plan being dangled as a plot thread for the upcoming KoW. However, a lot of unclear with the herald's madness. I don’t think it’s been confirmed but it’s collectively accepted that a major part of the problem is a ‘magical’ inversion of their divine attributes/purpose. However, what’s causing this isn’t clear. There are so many factors at play that could be screwing with the Heralds heads: Normal PTSD from millennia of torture + war Immortality related Cognitive shadow decay (brain trying to handle millennia of memories) Spiritweb impact of 'breaking' during the oathpact Spiritweb impact of actually abandoning the oathpact BAM being bound Honor's death/shattering Guilt over abandoning one of their closest companions to be tortured alone ??? (Nale specific, but bonding to a Highspren is making him worse) The heralds seem to think that this is purely a result (1) PTSD. Kalak says that they shouldn't be 'getting worse' anymore. Nale tells Szeth at Thaylen Field his loss of compassion is directly torture-related Ash told Adolin that "thousands of years of torture" is what made the heralds insane. Ishar seems only to make the ideal = lucidity connection when Navani swears her ideal. Ishar also says he needs to be sane to fix the oathpact, not that fixing the oathpact will make him sane. I don’t think it’s actually on the herald's radar that they have a 'magical' problem. The source of the magical insanity can't just be the impact of abandoning the oathpact or breaking since Taln seems to still have the 'inverted attribute (resolute/dependable - comatose and cowardice) and he never participated in either of those two things. The cognitive shadow memory problems are definitely an issue but it doesn’t make sense as a root of the herald's ironic madness. I think it's something later, probably BAM being bound and/or Honor's death, that is causing the 'curse'. Heralds are closer to Nahal spren than humanity at this point, per Kalak, and also directly connected to Honor (like the Sibling). What happened to the Sibling and all the spren was drastic and completely uwpredicted. Heralds getting uniquely broken (on top of trauma + memory problems) fits with the other effects we've seen. Furthermore, while, the heralds do seem insane even in the original prologue (Kalak's anxiety, he sees cowardice in Jezerin’s eyes) but it’s nowhere near what we see in modern Roshar. Jezerin is leagues more put together, and while anxiety does seem to be part of Kalak’s madness, but I would argue that his magical anxiety seems to be specifically social anxiety (he’s at his most fearful surrounded by crowds at Gavliar’s party and the Trial) as an inversion of the social organizer role willshapers seems to have had. What we saw in the prologue than the completely reasonable fear of torture driven by PTSD. Finally, on a meta level, this would also help tie two of the major plot threads (Dalinar’s plan to fix the Heralds and Adolin/Shallan’s quest to release BAM) in KoW.
  6. So I was thinking about it and I think I figured exactly how honor beat odium. But first my evidence; point 1: we see I Other series shards Have trouble interacting with those under the influence of another shard, granted these two shards were exact opposite but I think it likely this is true no matter what but the degree to which the shards oppose each other determines how much influence they can get in. point 2: so basically honor put part of his shard into odium at least enough to pass along some of his intent. That is why odium is Abe to be trapped there because of paths made by him potentially and why he has to follow the rules of a contest of champions if agreed to. Essentially he corrupted odium.
  7. Gavilar, sent a box to Braize. It was hardly empty, at least not on the second try. And I think we must assume that he made multiple experiments, just to make sure the result is repeatable. He could have start with an animal or a captured animal spren. But while it is easy to see that a box vanishes and reappears, I doubt he would claim that it reached Braize and returned without evidence. So I see two possibilities, which are not mutually exclusive he captured a voidspren on Braize the box was crewed Now, he could have used a prisoner or a condemned man. But in the end the box was at least also intended for the Heralds. Thus the question arises. Did Gavilar have a facility for creating Cognitive Shadows? If so, did he use it and where are the results?
  8. So, I just finished my oathbringer re-read and have come up with a theory about the heralds. oathbringer spoilers my theory is that the oathpact bound together the souls of the heralds, part of the reason is probably so that they could share the pain of torture, but also it is possible that this was also done to cement them together to the oathpact. Oathbringer spoilers. The second part of my theory is that Odium will use this to make/ replace the heralds, meaning that in order to stop the fused from returning after death, odium's new heralds would need to be dispatched. thoughts? Any Wob that make or break this theory, or any things that you can point out?
  9. This is essentially a continuation of my previous thread: tl;dr version of it: I believe that Near East mythology (Ugaritic Baal Cycle, specifically) predicts that Rayse and the Fused will be killed with Sja-anat's help by the end of Arc 1. Arc 2 will be about Odium reforming itself OK, we can start We know that the names of the Unmade come from Near East (mostly Canaanite) mythology (plus some Lovecraft). Imagine my surprise when I found out that the same applies to selected Heralds and the Sibling: Ishar – Ishara, originally a Canaanite love goddess, then turned into Hittite goddess of oaths, who punishes the oathbreakers. Quite a fitting connection, I would say Shalash – Shamash, Mesopotamian god of Sun and light. Once again quite a good match Jezrien – supreme god (depending on the culture: El, Anu, Amurru, Yahweh). His later name, Ahu, is (given the nature of the letter 'h') pretty much identical to Anu. I believe that the fact that his names typically start with Je-/Ya- is a link to Jehovah/Yahweh (plus he's also worshipped as the only god in Emul) The names of the other Heralds don't have mythological origin, as far as I can say, which makes sense in a way, as in the ancient Near East only royalty (Jezrien, Ash) and maybe high priests (Ishar) would use names associated with divinity. They all, however, share the suffix “'Elin” which seems to come from El, associated with Jezrien The Sibling – Ashur, who represents a deified form of the city of Assur – clearly the same concept as the Sibling and Urithiru Fun fact: staring from Ashur, we can find a nice chain of (probably Easter egg) connections scattered around the Stormlight books. Ashur appears in the name of one of the last Assyrian kins – Ashurbanipal (literally 'Ashur has given a son-heir') who happens to share some similarities with Dalinar: he was known as the king who could read and write (not a small feat, given the complexity of cuneiform and ancient Summerian and Akkadian) he lost his lands in the West, but gained new in the East his capital, Nineveh, had the largest library of ancient knowledge at the time (similar to Urithiru) and was prophesied in the Bible to be completely destroyed (similar to the fate of Kholinar in Almighty's visions) the prophecy from the previous point was made by the prophet Jonah, who was, according to Bible, swallowed by a giant fish at one point – something weirdly similar to what happens to Hoid and a greatshell, as described by Lift Given all that, I can see two interesting theories/implications: The Unmade are Odium's Heralds/Honorblades: I have assumed for a long time that the Unmade would be the Bondsmith godspren (or maybe Truthwatcher godspren) for Voidbinding, but in the light of the new evidence I believe they are the equivalent of the Heralds instead. It makes sense: they are superpowered beings using their Shard's power on a hostile Shard's territory, trying not to get captured. They are also not exactly efficient – Yelig-nar uses his hosts up rather quickly, as the Honorblades use Stormlight The new, evil Oathpact As I wrote above, I believe that Arc 2 will include reforming Odium. We know that: there is no Unmade corresponding to the Order of Bondsmiths Ishar is a crazy, egomaniac Bondsmith who possibly wants the death of all mankind Arc 2 will be about figuring out the Oathpact Based on that, a possible mechanism of Odium's return is a new, evil Oathpact on Roshar - one between Ishar and the Unmade. It could be enough for Ishar to Ascend and bring Voidbinding (10-based, Voidspren bond based magic system) to Roshar – essentially a twisted version of what Dalinar tries to achieve with Honor and the KR in Arc 1
  10. So, this is probably just conjecture on my part, and may or may not have been said before, I don't know, but my theory is that as a part of gaining the time break between books 5 & 6, Dalinar is going to assume enough of Honor's power to forge a new (or at least rebrand the existing) Oathpact. Since I think I remember that Brandon has said Kaladin won't be a major character in the second arc, my theory is that he and some of the other new radiants will sacrifice themselves to become cognitive shadows/heralds and give humanity a breather. I say sacrifice in part because I did see a Brandon quote that said that in order to become a cognitive shadow, a person's physical body has to die. Since the heralds are confirmed to be cognitive shadows returned to physical form by an unknown mechanism, something is going to have to kill the new heralds. Though this raises questions for me like: Does the herald speak oaths before they die and become a shadow? What happens to a bonded spren if the person they're bonded to becomes a shadow immediately upon their death? Would the bond be renewed? Because we know from that pesky Nale that cognitive shadows can forge a Nahel bond with spren. And frankly, I don't think Kaladin would do well as a Herald without Syl to back him up. Thoughts?
  11. In hindsight Nale has failed. Taln broke and a desolation has started. It would be easy to conclude that he was a fool and needlessly slaughtered people. However, would that be correct? The interaction of Odium and Dalinar strongly suggested that Dalinar could rescind the oathpact. There is also Gavilar's experimentation with the black spheres. Is it possible that Radiants could actually trigger a desolation?
  12. Heralds all have their Honorblades and spendid power, but when they die, they go to Damnation and be tortured. We think they're tortured because it's part of the Oathpact, but could it be that they were tortured before the Oathpact? Say the torturing was the bane for the boon of Honorblades? It's easy to think Honor handpicked the Heralds and gave them swords and power, as the swords are called Honorblades. But what if they're called Honorblades only because Honor made them? It could be forged by Honor and then given to the Heralds by Heralds by Nightwatcher as a boon. Say, they asked for power to fight a demon coming to their world. The Nightwatcher then gave them power and weapons to fight, but also made them tortured after they were killed. Then when Honor and Cultivation wanted to trap Odium to Roshar, they thought of those souls tortured in Damnation, and gave them another chance to be alive and fight again. And the oath for the pact was not that they should be tortured, but that they should fight and win. After some more thoughts, I think it will be very unwise to let your enemy torture your champions. What if he tried to tempt them and convert them to his side? Torturing them is not the best thing to do when you have your enemy's champions, even if you hate them so much. You should try to treat them and talk sense (or betrayal) into them. The torturing should be from the champions' side, and it is very realistic, as champions are so often deserted by the crowd and the crown if they live long enough. Now, if it was Cultivation or Honor torturing the Heralds on Damnation, Damnation may not belong to Odium after all. There was a Tranquilline Hall, a Damnation, and roshar in the star system. The Listeners were the natives of Roshar and was the original worshipper of Honor. Humans were the natives of the Tranquilline Hall and brought Odium over. So Damnation belongs to Cultivation from the beginning! Cultivation may have been a mad scientist and say caused some greenhouse effect like disasters to happen and made her world Damnation. People hated her so much and Odium was attracted by the hatred into the star system. He got onto the only planet without a shard and later went with the humans there to Roshar, which had its own climate problems (the high storms).
  13. <Mistborn Spoilers> This (trapping a shard for a period of time) however, isn't a unique occurrence in the Cosmere. Honor used the Oathpact to limit Odium's influence on Roshar. What I'm proposing is that what Tarnavast did to Rayse is the same thing that Leras did to Ati, using cognitive force concentrated in a physical form to hold the power of a shard, however instead of using his own cognitive aspect, he used 10 Heralds instead. Every 1024 years the well of ascension would fill with investiture, what I'm saying is the sort of outlet to Ati's power, stopping the whole system from breaking by using the excess. Tarnavast however, didn't create such a system, and instead used humans (shored up with a little of his own power) to prevent Rayse from escaping his prison. Since humans work different to Shards however, the Heralds had to physically be at the site of the prison, and so could be broken by Odium (creating the Desolations).
  14. Stormlight Spoilers So from the beginning, the abandonment of the oathpact was a big deal, the Radiants abandoned their job. But wasn't the oathpact necessary to keep the voidbringers at bay? So when the series or arc is over, whichever resolves the voidbringer problem, will a new oathpact need to be formed? Honor does not exist anymore, but Dalinar is portraying shard-like characteristics, so maybe he would be able to re-form it? Or perhaps Wit/hoid will have something to do with it. Regardless of how it would be done, is it necessary? Will they shatter Odium for good this time? If they do form the oathpact again, who will the heralds be?
  15. Just a wild idea that came to me when I was reading a Brandon forum. There were 10 Heralds for the Oathpact, right? And supposedly 10 books will be published for the SA series, each book with a focal character. What if those 10 focal characters will be responsible for taking the place of the previous Heralds? It would be a suitably melancholy end to the series — I would be satisfied with it, anyway. Additionally, Brandon noted that the series will be split into two sets of 5. I think it'd make sense if the first half of the story was focused on the Radiants rise to power, and the last half was focused on their end. With their end would come the end of the Desolations, as well, which would make for a distinct close indeed.
  16. Hey all, After reading OB and understanding the Oathpact's purpose and the importance of the Everstorm (now we understand what Jasnah meant at the end of WoR, don't we?), I have thought of something I want to share. As we know, in the current Desolation the Fused can return in the next Everstorm after been killed, as opposed to all previous Desolations (except for the first one, because you know, roles reversed and all that). Given that the Fused are formidable opponents even to the Radiants (at least the 3rd Level Radiants, the ones we have so far), this is a big difference. But maybe there is a solution for this! Since it is known that when the blade (Nightblood) inflicts a wound, it vaporizes and destroys on all three realms, Cognitive, Physical, and Spiritual, maybe it can be used to destroy Fused for good. This is (I think) good for everyone, since we have seen that not all re-Connected parshmen are really into fighting, the Fused being the ones that really hate humans. Since possessed listeners are already dead, killing Fused with Nightblood is not killing listeners. This may be a big step towards ending the listener-vs-humans conflict, so they can present a unified front against Odium. I'm sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere! Edit: formatting
  17. A sudden thought. Dalinar is a Bondsmith of Honor. Honor is dead. Odium talks to Dalinar and implies that Dalinar has the power to release Odium from the contracts/bonds Honor has placed on Odium. My conclusion from this is that in becoming the Bondsmith of Honor - by virtue of Honor being dead - Dalinar has become essentially the Executor of Honor's Will, and can enter new contracts, and modify existing contracts/Oaths on Honor's behalf. One of these contracts is the Oathpact. Thoughts?
  18. We learned a lot of information in Oathbringer, and it's taken me quite a few days to process what I've read. A lot of that processing seems to happen as I'm lying in bed half asleep, and that is where this theory comes from. TDLR; Surges came first, Honor bound them to Heralds and his Investiture via the Oathpact, and this was done to help stop surges from destroying Roshar during Desolations. Now that the TLDR is out of the way, let me actually explain where my brain went with this. 1. Humans, according to OB, came to Roshar because they'd destroyed their home with Surgebinding. -- I believe that it's being called surgebinding because that's how the powers are known on Roshar at this time. My theory postulates that humans had Surges, ALL surges, in an unchecked manner and this led to the Cataclysm on Ashyn (likely) or whatever their original home was. They were able to use Surges because it it simply just channeled/focused Investiture. It did not *require* Stormlight, but whatever the equivalent is where they are from. 2. Humans came to Roshar, as refugees, Odium followed them, and they were accepted there. -- At first they settled in fine, but then decided they wanted more... seems plausible. In the book we're told the humans were the enemy in the first Desolation (if not some of the first few Desolations). I can buy this. They would have been seen as invaders, as is evident by the Fused's hatred of humanity. There are still remnants of human worship of Odium on Roshar (in the form of Thaylen Passions, as one example). 3. Odium is the side with the most Passion. -- I believe the reason Dalinar's visions show humans fighting humans fighting parsh, et al, is because there were not distinct sides. Odium basically liked to stoke the coals and cause a ruckus in order to inspire passion. Early Desolations were a manifestation of this I believe, and throughout the years people simply gravitated to the side they were more comfortable with. 4. Early Surges were unchecked. Hence, the Oathpact. -- Here comes part of the meat of my theory. I believe early use of surges were unchecked, and all surges were accessible by anyone who drew upon Investiture to use them. This made them extremely dangerous. Also I believe ANY Investiture could fuel them. Therefore my theory postulates that 9 of the Heralds (not Taln) were men and women who could use all surges AND were in positions of power in Roshar were chosen by Odium during the creation of the Oathpact. The Oathpact was a way for Honor to allow Surges to remain on this world, but be limited and bound by oaths, so as to not destroy it like it did the previous world humans occupied. Taln was selected by Honor. I don't necessarily think the Heralds were told they were selected or by whom. I also think this is why today it's called Surgebinding. Honor literally bound the Surges, and bound them to HIS Investiture, created the Honorblades as a way to limit how many surges of what type could be used in conjunction and that this is the basic idea of the Oathpact. Honor did not want these surges on Roshar all the time, so the agreement was made that after each Desolation the Heralds would go to Damnation to give humans time without them. I don't think Honor counted on the Spren trying to mimic the Honorblades. The KR were then formed to keep the spren in check and to keep humans further bound by oaths in order to use Surges. This was all rolled into the Oathpact. EDIT: After reading some WoBs I'm adjusting my theory a bit to account for information I did not have while sleeping... 5. Odium sidesteps the Oathpact. -- Once the Surges were no longer free to be used by anyone, Odium was at a disadvantage. He began by torturing the Heralds, trying to corrupt them. I think their Connection to Honor was too strong to be corrupted, so he turned to the next best thing... the spirits of the dead parsh from the early Desolations. (He still tortured the Heralds, as we know, and he did so to begin new Desolations as soon as he could following the last one). He couldn't allow them to use Surges, since he Surgebinding is bound by the Oathpact, but he sidesteps this with what we know as "Voidbinding", a corrupted version of Surges, likely powered by one or more of the Unmade. This is legal since the Unmade are not likely part of the Oathpact. 6. The Death of Honor. -- Wild tin-foil part of this theory is that the Heralds themselves, with the help of Odium, killed Tanavast and splintered Honor. WHY??? Why would the Heralds do this?? Because he was weakening. I posit that the Heralds believed that if Tanavast was killed someone would take up the Shard and strengthen Honor and keep the Oathpact strong. Odium swooped in and Splintered Honor before that could happen. This is all extremely unlikely, but it kind of fits the narrative I have going here so I forced myself to write it anyway. So, here we have it. This is what I ended up with after digesting the information given to us in Oathbringer. I only have a physical copy of the book, so I don't have actual quotes in this post, but I can probably work to find some. I'm pretty happy with this theory, even though I'm probably wrong in most, if not all, of it, but it's what my brain concluded while I was asleep so I thought I'd share and see what the other more-cosmere-aware folks here thought about it.
  19. Hey 17th Shard, My best friend shared with me an interesting theory that I wanted to run past you. He is not much for the forums but he did say he would be OK if I shared it here. I took his idea and built up a quick assumption list to help solidify his insight. Assumptions: 1. Bondsmiths can make and break Nahel, and other, bonds between a person and a spren. This assumption is not, necessarily, pivotal to the theory but perhaps the Bondsmiths are the ones who figured out what to do. 2. There is some sort of fundamental, underlying principles that dictate how these bonds are formed. Perhaps it is the innate system of the Rosharan system that makes the rule, perhaps Honor/Cultivation have a hand in it, perhaps it is a mix of those two, or perhaps it is something else altogether. Whatever the reason is, I do not think it is too big of a stretch to say that Brandon would create governing principles for the Rosharan magic systems. 3. The Knights Radiant of old (pre-Recreance) knew that Parshendi (or Parshmen) were Voidbringers. Or, since there is some debate about what a Voidbringer actually is, we might say that the Knights Radiant of old were aware that Parshendi/Parshmen were involved, somehow, with Desolations and Voidbringers. Theory: The Knights Radiant, knowing that Parshendi were related to the Desolations/Voidbringers (see assumption 3), discovered a way to break (see assumption 1) the underlying magical principle (see assumption 2) that allowed Parshendi to bond with Voidspren. In doing so, however, they also had to break their own bonds as well because the underlying principle applied to both their Nahel bond and the Parshendi bond. The Recreance was a direct result of the Knights Radiant deciding to give up their bonds because they thought it would forever prevent the Voidspren from bonding with the Parshendi again. We know that one Order of Radiants (possibly the Skybreakers) secretly kept their bonds which means that whatever a Bondsmith (see assumption 1) did to break the underlying principle (see assumption 2) was not completely successful - either due to the Order that secretly refused or perhaps because the Bondsmith just did something wrong. This mistake/accident/betrayal meant that some of the Parshendi remained Parshendi (Eshonai's people) and most turned into the Parshmen. This also means that the line in the Diagram about Taravangian possibly reusing the secret that broke the Radiants before could be referring to this. If the current Radiants were told that they could break all of the Voidspren's bonds with Parshendi by sacrificing their spren what would Kaladin, Shallan, and the others do? Could they justify to themselves not doing this? If they could save the world by sacrificing their spren... well, I think it would be hard for them to refuse. What say you Sharders? Is it possible that the Recreance was caused by the Knights Radiant delibrately trying to break the bonding process so that Parshendi could never again join with a Voidspren?
  20. I theorize the Heralds are humankind’s personification of the Divine Attributes. Those Ideals – the Heralds in Shadesmar spren form – IMO fend off Odium at the place Roshar’s and Braize’s subastrals meet. Judging by the Shadesmar map, I think Roshar is a major Shadesmar crossroads. I suspect Braize, the farthest planet of Greater Roshar, has only one Shadesmar passage back into the main channels – the planet Roshar. Somehow Odium is boxed in on Braize. The Oathpact binds the Heralds to stand at Roshar’s gates and keep Odium out. Like the Returned, which Brandon says is the same magic system, I think Honorblades are splinters bound to the Heraldic Ideals. On Roshar, alignment with an Ideal determines the strength of the bond that gives power. I think this must be true of Heralds, since spren modeled the KR on the Heralds. IMO, as humankind’s belief in the Heraldic Ideals strengthens, the bond between the Honorblades and Heralds also strengthens, increasing Heraldic power. As belief fades, the bond – and the Heralds’ power – weakens. This may explain the Sons of Honor’s actions (with reverse causation). I believe Odium attacks the Heralds’ strength in two ways. First, he seeks to undermine human belief in the Heraldic ideals. Second, he directly assaults those Ideals in their spren form. IMO, Odium’s power severs bonds. That what hate does – it generates power but consumes you. Odium’s power tries to sever the weakened Ideals from their bond with Honor. IMO, the Heralds’ torture is Odium’s bond-severing power melting through their bonds. Over time, Odium’s power breaks the Herald’s bonds. Desolation spills into Roshar. The Heralds cry havoc, and war comes to the Physical Realm.
  21. I mention this idea on another thread and flesh it out here. Many theories highlight the difference between Surgebinders and Knights Radiant. These theories look at these two quotes, the first from in-world Words of Radiance, the second from Dalinar’s Nohadon vision: Theorists conclude the original Surgebinders are not bound by the Knight Radiant oaths. I agree. Here’s my take on what Ishar and Nohadon do and what IMO the Herald's Oathpact's oath is. Ishar’s “was the most important part at their inception.” I think he imposes his “precepts and laws” when spren first grant Surges to men. He organizes the Orders, and I think he imposes the first oath: “Life Before Death. Strength Before Weakness. Journey Before Destination.” IMO, that oath creates the Nahel bond. Since Ishar requires no other oaths, oath makers instantly become full-powered Surgebinders. Nohadon later laments that Surgebinder Alkavish “brought us to war before the Desolation,” weakening humanity. (WoK, Chapter 60, Kindle p, 850.) The problem is the spren less discerning than honorspren; if they choose a bad bond-buddy, there’s no way to ratchet back the full power granted. I agree with posters who think Nohadon is a Bondsmith. I believe he founds the Knights Radiant and creates the Order oaths as a safety valve of phased-in bonding. Unlike “Ishar’s Knights,” as Taln calls them, Knights Radiant gain power as they align with their spren’s ideal. Now the fun and maybe (?) even novel part…Where does the first oath come from? I think it’s the oath the Heralds give to Honor when they join the Oathpact. The spren copy the Honorblades. Ishar organizes the Orders like the Heralds and substitutes the Nahel bond for an Honorblade. I think human Surgebinding requires the same oath the Heralds give. The first oath reads differently from a Herald’s perspective: “Life Before Death.” You will live and die over and over again. “Strength Before Weakness.” Your strength will weaken under torture. “Journey Before Destination.” Your torture will never end.
  22. We know that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. What we don't know is exactly when the Oathpact was formed. Was it in response to Odium showing up? Was it in anticipation of this event? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with Odium? Here answer 1. Here answer 3 Here answer 4. Here answer 6. These all show that Odium had no part of the Oathpact, and his being stuck on Roshar is an indirect result of it. Now WAST time. The creation of The Dor, and the fight with Ambition surely could be felt by the other Vessels in the Cosmere. It could have become obvious that Odium was hunting Vessels and destroying them. While not diametrically opposed like Ruin and Preservation, there could be some issues with Honors focus on Permanant Bonds, and Cultivations more change centric intents. As lovers, they should have become aware of these issues fairly early after moving in together (on Roshar). Endowment splits off a splinter of herself in every Returned. The contests that selected the Heralds were designed to select 10 individuals. While some were martial in focus, not all necessarily were. Chana is noted for her great speed for instance. While Honor obviously presided over them, perhaps Cultivation was also a judge. Knowing that Odium would be coming, Honor decided to self splinter. This allowed him to focus his intent into specific individuals with the traits he was looking for, rather than the randomness of being shattered. A bunch of mini-champions if you will. While it might make him a bit weaker overalls to spreading out his power overall, it might make him more resilient in the end because of the individuals would be known. He might have forged a separate pact with Cultivation prior to this where she would also do the same to a lesser extent with the chooses, thus giving her a seat at the judgement. This would have allowed Brandon to state that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds, and not mention her. Now if each was looking for specific traits in the contestants, it would make sense if these became ingrained in the Vorin religion. We have this nice table of essences and relations to Heralds from the Vorinn religion. Divine Attributes Primary Divine Attributes of Protecting, Just, Brave, Loving, Learned, Creative, Wise, Resolute, Dependable, and Pious. I feel that I can tie all of these attributes to something Honor would be looking for in someone to hold part of his power. Secondary Divine Attributes of Leading, Confident, Obiedient, Healing, Giving, Honest, Careful, Builder, Resourceful, and Guiding. I feel I can tie all these attributes to Something Cultivation would be looking for. The individuals selected were to lead the people by being living representative of these ideals. Honor splintered off a fairly large bit of Investature to each, and Cultivation a smaller. But this infusion of Investature would seek to enhance these traits in each individual over time becoming more and more a part of their intent. Since they had strength in particular focuses these would be exemplified. Now this large amount of Investiture would probably have affected their life spans as we have seen on Nalthas and on Sel. Having extremely long lived individuals exemplifying ideals should lead to a highly stable society. Thus the Tranquiline Halls mythology. An almost to perfect society, yet not stuck on the now but also the future do to Cultivations influence. The Heralds had to make the Oathpact with Honor, but what was the Oath. TO UPHOLD THE IDEALS FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIVED. The Reward extremely long life. They would not be Heralds of War. But Heralds of Life. Heralds of Ideals. So then Odium shows up. We have the First Desolation. THEY ALL DIE. But due to the splinters they hold, they all become Cognative Shadows. Odium is set back, but these little fairly helpless Heralds are now trapped. They have held a splinter so long they have been warped on the SR to be almost programmed to stay and uphold these ideals. So each time a Desolation starts they move back into the PR and fight for these ideals against the one who killed them. Because of this Odium is stuck. Every time he tries to destroy Honor, they come back like Army ants attacking his flanks. And by coming back they inspire others to the same ideals. Thus indirectly trapping him in Roshar. He sences that Honor is weak, so his hatred won't let him leave, but every time he attacks, the Heralds show up to buffer honors strength. Thus he starts a long game as I outline in my 10 Heralds 10 Fools thread.
  23. Hi this is my first post so here goes. i recently reread the prologue to way of kings to see what I noticed. Here are the things I only just picked up on: -it seems jezrien as king of the herelds was not based on his position as a herelds but on his preheraldic life there he was a king and so he brought his regal attitude into his life as a hereld -this tells he and the herelds had some sort of regular life beforehand and some event caused the creation of the oathpact -Based on the amount of times Brandon had to explain to questioners the oathpact was between honor and herelds not odium it seems I wasn't the only one who was confused how their agreement with honor gets them repetitively sent to idioms tirture.clise reading leads me to only one conclusion the oathpact must be about their commitment to honor to repetively engage in fight on behalf of all mankind which in and of itself gives odium some hold over them -they gain out of the oathpact some sort of vague minute chance of victory that they have never acheived. When they our leaving the iathpact when jezrien tries to claim as long as tank is still there it will hold he is saying they are not forfeiting that chance completely even though both he and kalak don't really believe tank alone can do what they all together could not -based on this when jezrien says who knows maybe it will turn out to be true(about the lie they will tell mankind about victory) he is saying that not as a product of their attempt to break the iathpact but as an excuse they will give for just leaving. They will say they win -this that there is even a need to lie tells me the people know something if the oathpact so there is a need to rationalize to them why they are not returning to purgotory so what do you guys think an I reading this right -oh one last favorite theory of is crystal clear to me that when adolin makes reference to the ironclad traditions in risharof duals and the rights of the champions to make binding demands that these traditions are based on that cryptic reference honor naked to their ability to get odium to pick a champion and then be bound by the tesults love it or hate it?
  24. Hi this is my first post so here goes. i recently reread the prologue to way of kings to see what I noticed. Here are the things I only just picked up on: -it seems jezrien as king of the herelds was not based on his position as a herelds but on his preheraldic life there he was a king and so he brought his regal attitude into his life as a hereld -this tells he and the herelds had some sort of regular life beforehand and some event caused the creation of the oathpact -Based on the amount of times Brandon had to explain to questioners the oathpact was between honor and herelds not odium it seems I wasn't the only one who was confused how their agreement with honor gets them repetitively sent to idioms tirture.clise reading leads me to only one conclusion the oathpact must be about their commitment to honor to repetively engage in fight on behalf of all mankind which in and of itself gives odium some hold over them -they gain out of the oathpact some sort of vague minute chance of victory that they have never acheived. When they our leaving the iathpact when jezrien tries to claim as long as tank is still there it will hold he is saying they are not forfeiting that chance completely even though both he and kalak don't really believe tank alone can do what they all together could not -based on this when jezrien says who knows maybe it will turn out to be true(about the lie they will tell mankind about victory) he is saying that not as a product of their attempt to break the iathpact but as an excuse they will give for just leaving. They will say they win -this that there is even a need to lie tells me the people know something if the oathpact so there is a need to rationalize to them why they are not returning to purgotory so what do you guys think an I reading this right -oh one last favorite theory of is crystal clear to me that when adolin makes reference to the ironclad traditions in risharof duals and the rights of the champions to make binding demands that these traditions are based on that cryptic reference honor naked to their ability to get odium to pick a champion and then be bound by the tesults love it or hate it?
  25. So, I was discussing with several people on the Cosmere Discord, and I came up with a question about the Oathpact. I wanted to ask the wise members of the Shard what they thought. Do you consider Heralds to be an integral part of the Oathpact? Or is it more based upon the Honorblades? Is it both?