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Wit Beyond Measure posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveFrom Mraize's letter, we know: And then back in the prologue of Oathbringer, we have: So, the prologue meeting that Eshonai stumbles into appears to be a Sons of Honor meeting between Gavilar and Amaram and four others (one soldier, two fine ladies, and one old man in robes), where no guards were even at the door, presumably because they wanted a very secretive meeting where even guards were not allowed to listen in. My question is, who are the four others? Restares, perhaps Taravangian The old man in robes appears to be Restares. Amaram writes in a spanreed to Restares (WoR Page 1059), saying, "It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor." Amaram had also presumably consulted with Restares via spanreed when deciding slaughter his own men so that he could steal Kal's Shardblade: "Restares is right— this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar.” (WoK, Page 703) Restares is only mentioned in three places over all three books: as one of three of Gavilar's suspects during his assassination (WoK prologue), when Amaram slaughters Kal's men (WoK), and when Amaram writes to Restares via spanreed (WoR). The Stormlight Archive Wiki states that Restares is an Alethi brightlord, but I'm not sure that we know this even though Amaram implies that Restares said the theft of the Shardblade was for the good of Alethkar. We never hear anything of Restares at all, which knowing Sanderson makes me suspect that Restares is a fake name given how often he gives other names to characters - Heralds like Darkness, Ash, Ahu, and Tezim or the five Scholars - to obfuscate their true identities. I wonder if Restares is not in fact Taravangian or some other old dude we know well. In Oathbringer (Page 242), Dalinar tells us that he had met Mr. T before "his strange illness five years ago." And then the strongest evidence that Taravangian is Restares and a Son of Honor is this quote from WoR: After Gavilar's death and access to the visions ended, Mr. T seeks the Nightwatcher, asking that he be the one to unite them, which led to the Diagram. I will leave all discussion of the Diagram to other wonderful threads, though it does seem that followers of the Diagram and Sons of Honor diverge a bit. However, keeping his position in the Sons of Honor (if he is Restares) would be a brilliant way to keep the information flowing from surviving allies there. Torol and Ialai Sadeas Torol Sadeas is undeniably close to Gavilar, willing to sacrifice his life for Gavilar's own during the assassination attempt and always 100% loyal to Gavilar despite the fact that, following Gavilar's death, he's tried his best to undermine and even kill Dalinar at every possible step. Why the difference? Apparently, Torol was privy to secrets about Gavilar's true, ruthless and Machiavellian nature - secrets of which Dalinar and Elohkar and even Jasnah apparently had no inkling. How is that possible? What secrets did he know? And wouldn't we peg Torol as Gavilar's closest and most trusted companion outside of family? Didn't Torol do all of the politicking with Gavilar when Dalinar refused? So to me, it makes enormous sense that Torol was a Son of Honor, sharing the same ruthlessness and Machiavellian approaches as Gavilar and Taravangian and Amaram. In fact, Meridas was likely recruited by Torol, as was Ialai. Just like House of Cards, Torol and Ialai are playing this game together, 100%. So my thoughts are that Torol actually dressed in his soldier attire for the signing of the treaty with the Parshendi (hence he and Amaram make the two soldiers), and Ialai is one of the two women in long dresses. So the other woman could be... Aesudan We see Gavilar pushing Jasnah into Amaram's arms. Obviously, Gavilar wants to keep the Sons in the family. And Aesudan tells El in OB that his father was ever so much better than he was: Aesudan knows of one (but perhaps not the other) of Gavilar's spheres, and she seems to have continued trapping more bad spren, going even a step further by bonding. But how was she privy to Gavilar's grand plans? How did she know of his father's work and his ancient (evil) spren? I'm thinking that was because she was one of the lady Sons. Yet again, we see the same ruthless, Machiavellian nature in Aesudan as we do in Gavilar, Amaram, Torol, Ialai, and Taravangian. They all fit beautifully together.
Knghtstlker posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveHappy Oathbringer day, Lets not ruin anyone elses by spoiling the book for the people that may not read as quickly as you, or that may not be as fortunate to have obtained the book on the first day. I love you all my Bridge 4 Bretheren. Happy Reading.
Radiant_Jaeger posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveThe Radiants have begun their order. So far we have 5 who we know have sworn there oaths. But is there an actual counter to each hero in our villains? The rule is that they're motivations are similar to our heros but uniquely twisted. For Dalinar we have Taravangian who seeks to Unite in the most twisted way possible and also gathers visions granted by a higher power (Moelach in his case) He unites BY destroying, therefore anti bond smith For Kaladin we have Moash, someone who has also had family killed by the light eyes but seeks to kill those he hates, breaks his word to protect the Kholin family, and ACCEPTED shards where Kaladin did not. It's these two that are the clearest. As for Jasnah I would have to say one of the worldhopping ghost bloods since in theory she too can(has?) world hopp. Mraize perhaps but it seems flimsy I think each character will have a Rosharin counter. Then of course there is Eshonai and her sister, one who sought peace, vs one who did not, one who was tricked by the other to embrace Odium. While her sister embraced it long before. Perhaps it is not as cut and dry as this, but it works well so far, im not sure about Shallan, Renarin, or Lift yet.
Kurkistan posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveFirst of all, forgive me if someone else has already posited this. I will freely admit that I lost track of all the new posts during the post-WoR explosion, and I'm actually quite bad at finding stuff that I haven't read at least once before. That said, I have had an assumption about how the Diagram is so accurate floating around in the back of my head ever since I first saw someone question how a smart Taravangian (hereafter referred to by his proper title of "Mr. T") could make accurate predictions about human behavior given his previously demonstrated idiocy in that regard whenever he's really smart. Like how one day a smart Mr. T tried to get all the dumb people to commit suicide, and actually thoughts that everyone would agree with him so long as he explained it all well enough. So the question naturally arises in many minds: How could the super-ultra-duper-mega-smart Mr. T who wrote the Diagram predict the course of a conversation, let alone the course of human events on an entire planet? My immediate thought when I saw this question was as follows: Super-Mr. T crossed a very important threshold that day: he became intelligent enough to model human thought and behavior (on the macro scale, at the very least) as a pure abstraction, a pure exercise of thought without any reference at all to his own feelings, intuitions, or proclivities. It's as if you dropped a Mr. T-shaped AI on Roshar with all of Mr. T's memories and the directive "save humanity" and then let it figure it all out on its own. Where I would think that normally we model how other people will think and behave based in large part on our own capacities—our empathy and how we'd react in their situation and the like—it seems that intelligent Mr. T, besides not having compassion to care for the suffering of others, doesn't have that ability to empathize, and quite likely doesn't really even think in the same ways as normal people. So any attempt by an intelligent Mr. T to predict the behavior of others will necessarily be poisoned by his own atypical intuitions and proclivities. There may even be another threshold that Super-Mr. T had to cross before he was intelligent enough to recognize and consciously ignore his own intuitions about how other people will behave, such as his incorrect intuitions in the dumb-person-suicide case. --- So, in concluding, I think that the Diagram faction is entitled to trust in Super-Mr. T's predictions and directions because Super-Mr. T was so smart that he could model how us puny humans would react and take those reactions into account. Given the assumption that the Diagram's end goal is the salvation of some part of humanity, and given that Diagramists are heavily skewed towards the "ends justify the means" camp, Super-Mr. T is worth trusting. EDIT: I'm "espousing" the main idea in the OP (and other threads, as it turns out), not necessarily all the morality discussion that follows.