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RShara posted a topic in Cosmere DiscussionOn Roshar, the people believe seeing the future is evil. The few instances we've seen of foresight are associated with Odium. At a recent signing, Brandon said this: I find the bolded part where he trails off to be amazingly fascinating. Given the rest of the conversation, I propose that seeing the future is dangerous because of the following possibilities: 1. It draws the attention of the Shard (or its agents as explained below) that is powering the foresight. 2. It is heavily influenced by the intent or motives of the Shard that's powering it. 3. It's an ability granted by the Shard on purpose in order to manipulate events toward a future that the Shard (or its agents) desires. 4. It aligns you to the intent or motives of the Shard. This can be short-term (see atium below) or long-term. Repeated uses may cause a more lasting efect. 5. There's also the always-present conundrum of trying to change the future after you've seen it. Without context, you have no idea if changing your actions will cause that future or if not changing your actions will cause that future. The true answer could be any of the above, none of the above, or some combination of the options I've given. In order to evaluate possibilities, I've discussed the instances we've seen of people seeing the future, either as a summary, or as specific text, or links. Atium: We know how atium fuels Allomancy. It lets you see a few moments into the future. It also increases your mental and physical capabilities in order to take advantage of that knowledge. Sazed speculates in one of the HoA epigraphs that This appears to correlate to possibility 4--That seeing the future via atium temporarily aligned a person toward Ruin, the essence of entropy toward destruction. It might also explain why, after using atium as a metal mind and burning it for so long, TLR had such Ruinous impulses--mass slaughters, willingness to let the nobility destroy each other, etc, etc. After a thousand years of compounding atium, it's likely that he was very Connected to Ruin. It might also tie into possibility 3, assuming the possibility of Ruin wanting Rashek to become such a despot that he's overthrown just as the Well is about to fill, opening the way for Vin to take and release the power. Endowment: Endowment appears to be able to see some of the future, and sometimes her Splinters, the Returned, can pick up on this as well. We see this in Warbreaker, when Lightsong has his dreams and visions of T'Telir burning. She appears to send her Returned back in order to do a specific task (or set of tasks) based on what she sees, giving rise to possibility 3. Endowment apparently wanted the Hallandren and Idrians to persist, and sent back some of her Returned to help prevent the coming destruction. She probably has multiple contingency plans for if one of them dies before his or her task is accomplished. Wyrn: In the Elantris Annotations Brandon says: And Given that the Seons are Splinters of Devotion, (Love) and the Skaze are Splinters of Dominion, it seems like the Skaze are manipulating Wyrn in order to achieve their goals (Goals hinted at in the new epilogue in the 10th Anniversary Edition of Elantris) , tying back to possibility 3. Devotion and Dominion are both splintered, but the Skaze may retain enough of Dominion's intent to want to have complete dominion over the world (or maybe re-assemble Dominion?). And we come to the Stormlight Archive! We have more examples of foresight in SA than we have in any other book. There are three primary examples of it: Moelach: On the bridge between life and death, Moelach grants visions of the future, that the person utters in a cryptic and strange way, a phenomenon coined as Death Rattle. We don't really understand much about how this works, but the Death Rattles have been startlingly accurate, if incredibly obscure, so far. However. Moelach is a Splinter of Odium (along with the other Unmade). The Death Rattles we've seen so far all seem to be related either to the conflict between Odium and most of Roshar, or related to the people that are in that struggle. I have no absolute proof of this, but it's not a wild assumption (imo) to think that Odium, via Moelach, is using the Death Rattles to affect people's behavior. I realize this is putting conclusion before evidence, but I feel that it's a credible conclusion. Moelach is one of the mindless Unmade, as far as we know, so he's unlikely to have motives of his own. As a Splinter of Odium, Odium must have created him for a reason. We know Odium has a pretty good grasp of possible futures. Creating an Unmade to give people glimpses of the future (in a rather morbid way) to get them serving his purposes isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Renarin: We know very little about how Renarin's abilities work, and what types of things he can see, or how they will affect events. We know that his spren, Glys, is a Truthwatcher spren corrupted by Sja-Anat, another Splinter of Odium, and that Glys is likely what grants Renarin the ability to see the future. Renarin has seen Jasnah killing him. This would end him as a Radiant and as a Kholin. I confess, I am unsure what purpose his death would serve in Odium's cause. However, Renarin also saw Dalinar turning into Odium's champion. This would obviously be quite a desirable outcome for Odium. Given that Renarin has done a few things in order to try and warn about or prevent the things he sees, did he, consciously, or subconsciously, take actions that helped to bring that set of events into reality? We don't know yet what effects this might have, so I'm unsure which of the above categories this could fit into. The Diagram: Taravangian believes that he wrong the Diagram out of pure human capability and insight, rather than foresight. However, according to this WoB: As we know, in the Spiritual Realm, all times and places are essentially one. Seeing into the future in all other instances has been seeing into the Spiritual Realm. If Taravangian was closer to the Spiritual Realm than the Cognitive Realm, then he's likely incorporating at least some parts of what he sees in the Spiritual Realm into the Diagram. What we've seen him do so far has seemed to align him toward Odium's desires and motives. However, he was granted this ability by Cultivation, who is at odds with Odium. There was a lively discussion in this thread about the Diagram being a plant (pun intended) put in place by Cultivation. That T's actions, although they seem at odds with Dalinar+co, actually are meant to help them; and that T himself is unaware of this. As you can tell, I subscribe to this theory myself. This would fit in with possibilities 2, 3 and 4 above. Cultivation seems very crafty and careful, playing the long game with Dalinar, with Lift, and probably with T. And finally, we have Hoid. He has an ability to know where he needs to be at any given time. We don't really know most of his motives, so there's no way to determine what "where he needs to be" means, exactly. We're also very unsure as to how he knows to be in those places. We do know he uses something similar to Chromium Feruchemy in order to tap Fortune, but possibly isn't Feruchemy itself. We don't know what Shard he draws on, what intent that Shard might have, or if it's even a Shard at all. If someone can manage to tap directly into the Spiritual Realm without intervention from a Shard, it seems like Hoid would be the one. I'm also sure he's self-aware enough to know when/if he's being manipulated by whatever power he's using. So in short, I have no conclusions to draw about Hoid's abilities, other than a reiteration of his own speech to Shallan: There's always the risk, in seeing the future, of bringing about the exact consequence you want to prevent. That might be the simple answer to this entire question. Won't my face be red if it is! So, there is my long winded theory about the dangers of seeing the future. Please feel free to add to it or rip it to pieces, and thanks for reading!
Mileswasbestcharacter posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveSo this is a comment I made in another thread, but I was really excited about it and wanted to share my theory and see how well it stands. I think renarin is the traitor from the diagram (epigraph from chapter 86) and his spren is Moelach. Why do I think this? Starting assumptions: Renarin has precognition, a know trait of voidbringers. Renarin has his blood sickness, described as some kind of epilepsy. Moelach is a powerful voidspren, specifically with precognition, and taints a body as it breaks apart from the mind (chapter 82, epigraph). These assumptions have led me to the conclusion that renarin may unwittingly be tainted by void spren, and mistakes his abilities for a manifestation of KR power. Also can't find page, Taravangian says something about Moelach leaving his area of operations, causing death rattles to become more rare. Discuss!
Bladex454 posted a topic in Cosmere DiscussionEarlier today I was discussing Odium and his potential with future sight with some people and it led me down an interesting line of thought. We know Rayse is a schemer and he uses Moelach to collect Death Rattles in order to see the future, for whatever reason. It could be that he's capable of using them in order to gain access to Honor/Cultivation's abilities- humans on Roshar are of them after all- in order to more accurately pin down the future. If this is true, it might mean that Odium is using Moelach to scan for specific bits of info he's not capable of finding out on his own. However, Odium is a schemer and the Death Rattles being collected are flawed. Anyone that is near can hear them, giving them some insight into the future and possibly Rayse's plans. For someone that is supposedly crafty and dangerous, this seems like a huge flaw in one of his lieutenants, especially one he might be reliant upon. Then it came to mind that he could be using Moelach for another purpose, to mislead King T into following his will without him realizing it. When on his supposedly most brilliant day, he brought up Moelach, though the manner in which he did so was a little suspicious. The way he phrases it almost makes it seem that he wishes for his future self to ignore Moelach and focus on more important tasks, like becoming a proper ruler for the world to follow behind. Thus leading to the chaos in Jah Keved. Yet, why waste such a powerful resource? I believe King T. knew at the time of the Diagram's creation that it'd grow more and more inaccurate and the Death Rattles would possibly provide a way to alleviate that, however I also think he knew that if he did so then all of his actions would become suspect, possibly tainted by Odium's own influence. So he decided to steer his future self away from that simple fix and instead focus on rulership. As fate would have it however, the present King T. decided that the resource was too valuable to ignore and started to harvest it. Essentially allowing Moelach to control and direct King T's actions and thus polluting the Diagram. Moelach then decided to leave Kharbranth and focus on other tasks that were at hand, like the wars in Jah Keved. Thoughts?
hwiles posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveSounds crazy, I know, but hear me out. From the Diagram, Book of the Second Desk Drawer: This is sort of speculative considering we only have 3 short exerts from the book, but it sounds like the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer might be largely devoted to discussing the Unmade. Mr. T recognizes they might not be worth his time, but he can't help but obsess over them, even building "hospitals" to harvest death rattles from homeless people, drifters, and the terminally ill (as well as others...) If that's true, then the phrase: "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others," would most likely be referring to one of the Unmade. We know that Moelach is, in some capacity, intelligent and appears to have been deliberately helping Taravangian augment the Diagram with death rattles. For the record, I suspect that the Death Rattles are what tipped the Diagramists off that a Desolation was coming and that they needed to start getting ready in the first place since they don't appear to be Cosmere aware (speculation). I theorize then that Moelach, a Splinter of Odium, has turned on its creator and fellow Unmade (it is made from the power of hatred after all, so loyalty was probably never a virtue), and has decided to aid humanity. What could be its motivation for this betrayal you ask? Well, it probably found out that Odium was planning on reabsorbing it and leaving Roshar if he succeeds in killing Cultivation. This would make it a good candidate as a Godspren for a Bondsmith to join with (the others being the Stormfather, and possibly the Nightwatcher). (ASIDE: We don't technically know that Cultivation is alive, there have only been hints so far as I'm aware) Parshendi can bond voidspren pretty easily I hear, but I believe it's been stated by Sanderson that they would have a pretty hard time bonding a normal highspren (radiant-spren). Conversely, a human would have a very difficult time bonding a voidspren, even if they were really evil. Back in the day (before the Recreance) there were 3 Bondsmiths. It's often speculated that they each bonded a different Godspren, and two obvious choices are the Nightwatcher (a spren related to cultivation in an as-yet unrevealed way) and the Stormfather (a spren of Honor who has merged with Honor's cognitive shadow). I think it makes an elegant sort of sense for the third Godspren to be of Odium. Enter: Moelach. Eshonai is going to be a viewpoint character so I'm assuming she'll break free of her enslavement by Odium at some point, otherwise, why point out so heavily that she is possessed (and not just evil) and that her real personality is both alive and watching in (seemingly) helpless horror? What better way for her to break free than by forcing the spren possessing her out by bonding a more powerful spren? One that she wouldn't have a difficult time bonding (voidspren) and who appears to desperately want to resist Odium out of self-preservation. She is a natural and compassionate leader of her people and possesses, in my understanding, many of the qualities that allowed Dalinar to become a Bondsmith. What better general for the remnants of the Parshendi (and maybe Parshmen) who either have, or will, avoid being possessed by voidspren? Note, she's not slated to have a book dedicated to her for a good long while yet, so...you know...get settled in because I don't think she's going to be breaking her chains for a few years. In summary, my theory boils down to: 1. Moelach is helping humanity because he (she?) knows Odium is going to throw him away like a used tissue once their business on Roshar is concluded, ie: Moelach wants to splinter Odium. (think rogue AI trying to kill its creator to keep them from unplugging it, ie: classic sci-fi) 2. Moelach would be a good candidate for a Godspren capable of making a Bondsmith, but he would have to bond a Parshendi (or Parshmen I guess...) 3. Eshonai is a high-profile Parshendi view-point character, who exhibits a similar temperament and moral code to Dalinar (a known Bondsmith), is probably going to need to break free of Odium's enslavement over the course of her story-arc, and is (was?) a natural and beloved leader and military strategist. 4. Eshonai will be a Bondsmith with Moelach's help and lead the remnants of the Parshendi race that, somehow, avoid being possessed by voidspren. (maybe they wrap themselves in aluminum foil and stay indoors during highstorms?) That's all folks! Thoughts? Criticisms? Critiques? I've been told my writing can occasionally come off as cumbersome/confusing, so, for a limited time, we're also accepting general stylistic commentary and (constructive) feedback.
Patrick Star posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveSo, we know that the Unmade are odious sprenlike ancients that hate humanity, cause the thrill and create death rattles. I have a specific question about the death rattles. Moelach, one of the unmade, causes the death rattles. Dying humans are given valuable snippets of information that they blurt out right before flatlining. Why is he doing this? Tarivangian's plan to save the world relies on the information that Moelach is feeding him through these deaths, so why would Moelach help him? If the unmade really hate humanity, then why are they supplying the information necessary to save it? Is Moelach forced to? Is he feeding humans false and/or meaningless information? If not, will he? If they are always true, then why? Perhaps they are meaningless (true, but don't really help humanity) in order to spur Tarivangian to kill more people? What do you guys think? Note: I am trying to analyze the premise of death rattles, not specific ones.