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Found 34 results

  1. At the end of RoW, Moash appears to be physically blind, and it appears to be permanent. Without getting into the reasons for his blindness, the question remains, what is Moash's character arc from now on? Will he just go out with a whimper and no bang? I really hope not. He's too well developed a villain for him to go out like this. So here is my theory: At the end of the book we see El spike Lezian. This indicates that he is either competent in, or experimenting with Hemalurgy. We know from Khriss's notes that Hemalurgy has vast implications cosmere-wise. All that being said, my theory is that Moash will find his way to El at some point in book 5 and El will spike Moash, Inquisitor style, and this is how he will regain his ability to fight and be a villain with style once again. I imagine that with the spikes, he would be able to see investiture or he will be able to see into the cognitive realm in some way. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this!
  2. I thought about this while thinking about how Sanderson has treated other "inexcusable actions" OB spoilers below: RoW Spoilers: A lot of similarities right? I dismissed the similarities since there aren't any Bondsmith spren I see vibing with Moash but then Sanderson released that Knight Radiant order quiz, and he spoke about how even though they don't become radiant, Bondsmith squires still swore oaths simply for the ideals they represent. I could see Moash working under the current bondsmith in order to repent Bondsmith Ideals really go along with Moash and would be perfect for a redemption arc. Of course I don't like Moash for what he's done, but Dalinar's done just as bad and he's my favourite character in fiction, so the presentation is really the reason I forgive one over the other. The presentation as Moash as a villain makes me think this is unlikely but I just thought this would be a cool way for his story to go
  3. Moash was one of the characters I was most interested in when starting Rhythm of War, and while I wasn't thrilled with how he was written in Rhythm of War, and I wouldn't say that I'm coming around to it, I am starting to think maybe it could work depending on where the character goes in the future. Which makes me wonder, what even is his purpose in the story now? I feel his arc as Kaladin's foil has been completed, Moash gave up on caring because it's too painful while Kaladin accepts that caring is painful but he continues to move forward anyway. Even more than that, he even had a confrontation with Navani, who was able to defeat the man who killed her son. He's lost, he could have easily been killed off at the end and I don't think anyone would have felt unsatisfied but he's still standing regardless. Villains in Stormlight don't really last long, after a couple books, most of them either die or switch sides, even Rayse isn't immune to this, especially if you consider that he only actually appears in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, yet Moash of all people sticks around. He's been an antagonist in three books and he's approaching a fourth, making him one of the longest lasting villains in the series, behind Taravangian. So far Moash has only really served as a counter to Kaladin and Radiants in general (a big theme of RoW was what makes people good is the fact that he can change, but Moash doesn't) but if that's all he is, why hasn't he been killed off yet? It's possible that Moash could eventually get a redemption, but I kind of doubt it. Throughout Rhythm of War, you constantly have characters remarking about how terrifying, monstrous and evil he is. The same could be said of characters like Szeth or Raboniel, but for those characters there were also moments put in to signal to the readers that these were characters that could be sympathized with, but there's nothing like this for Moash. Even when he gets his pain back for a second, it's made clear that he feels worse for himself than Teft, as if to signal to the reader that we really shouldn't have any sympathy for him. Even if he did get redeemed, what would he do? He can't exactly go to the coalition, the Alethi are notoriously unforgiving of regicide. At one point I thought he'd join the listeners, but I think he missed the boat on that one. Honestly I'm half expecting it to turn out that he just froze to death on the mountain after the end of Rhythm of War.
  4. So, seems like Moash is now blind: "But he couldn't see them. No matter how much Stormlight he was given, his eyes didn't recover. He was blind" Why do you think this happened?
  5. DO IT! POUR IT ALL OUT HERE. Earlier I thought this 'Voidbringer' would come around but now, uh, no way I would see that happening anytime. But the way he talks about plans to Odium, something is really unsettling about him. Anyway hate him with Damnation's name. This man can only be redeemed in form of death.
  6. So, what are everyone’s views about Moash, especially considering recent actions seen in the preview chapters? I understand there is a lot of grey area; perhaps you think that Moash is a good, but misguided, person. Or perhaps you think he is corrupted by the Unmade. Or maybe you can’t decide. As for the second question, the options once again have a fair bit of ambiguity. If Moash doesn’t get redeemed, he might just die without much of a conflict. Or perhaps Moash will live/die unredeemed, having destroyed Bridge Four and wreaked havoc everywhere. I am interested to see what everyone thinks about these questions.
  7. Vyre used the knife to kill Jezrien and Jezrien flipped out. But he wasn't even a human he was more like a spren. So was the material of the blade Odiumite? I mean Harmony, Trell, Ati, and Leras all had God metals. Why not Odium? And if so is Honors metal the metal that shardblades and the oathgate are made out of. And do we know anything about Cultivation's metal? These are questions that have been running through my mind lately.
  8. Somewhere after finishing WoR, I remember going online and seeing a thread on Reddit about creating a new thread called r/stormmoash. I was vaguely amused, I most certainly did not expect it to become what it has become today. Stormlight has had some less than True Hero™ characters. This complexity has always been part of what made me love the series. Some characters, like Shallan and Adolin as well as Elhokar are quite notably polarizing. I would count Dalinar in that group too post-Oathbringer. Some are more reviled: Sadeas, Amaram and Moash. To my surprise, opinion on Kaladin too seems to be quite divisive, mostly due to the existence of the previous characters. He is pointed out as being more traditionally heroic, in contrast to the other characters, on top of being depressing. He seems typically moral than the more complicated history of Dalinar and less fun to read or interact with than Adolin and Shallan. Some people have also taken issue with Kaladin's view of Lighteyes. Dalinar: I feel already tired of explaining my views on him. There are two new threads where I have put forward my views on him "moral miscalculations of Mr Sanderson in Oathbringer" by Parallax and "Dalinar's Genocide" by Hakusho Slick. Shallan and Adolin mostly come under heat because of their casual racism. Many seem to be thoroughly incensed by Adolin referring to Kaladin as "bridgeboy" as well as his comments on "the world changing" when "even darkeyes have access to Shardblade", the fact that he makes that comment about women having Shardblades also tends to draw frowns (although it is notable that he makes that comment in a positive manner, offering to teach Shallan how to properly wield a Shardblade) One of the most quoted things for hating against Shallan is the same scene with Adolin, where he makes the comment mentioned above about Shallan's worry about seeming feminine while lugging about a Shardblade. She responds by thinking "thank you for comparing all women to peasants".... Oof. There is the infamous boots scene with Tyn where she bullies Kaladin into giving her his boots. Before that, once again with Tyn, they both try on something (I forget, eye drops? lens? I think it was the former) to darken their eye colour so they could move about freely. Shallan is very excited to shed lighteyes propriety. Then she suddenly gets really worried that there might exist something to make darkeyes seem lighteyes. The point I'm trying to make by going on a spiel about these characters' various controversies is that these things are discussed. Negative opinions and accompanying evidence are examined, others' point of view seen as valid, arguments and counter-arguments are made, and so on. I'm not saying Moash isn't discussed. I've seen the threads and topics. For example, the Vyre discussions. I'm pointing that a disproportionately large amount of disliking Moash seems to have become popular simply due to trending. Oh yes, what he did was not okay but we have characters like Sadeas, Amaram and Roshone right there beside him. Moash killed Elhokar at a pivotal moment. Elhokar did genuinely try to change and was close to swearing his Ideals. Moash succeeded where the others (except Roshone, RIP Tien) didn't, as Sadeas failed in his Battle of the Tower plot and Amaram failed to dispose of Kaladin. But there are no threads or discussions simply dedicated to only hating on any of these other characters. I mean discussions like Shallan Davar disgust thread do exist but the Moash thing has gone out of control. Moash has the aforementioned very famous hashtag on reddit, where people simply drop in to say that they hate him with almost the same frequency that they say "I am Stick". There are discussions dedicated to simply hating on Moash. As well as various other such threads on who would kill Moash, etc. People casually drop "I hate Moash" or variations thereof, which get upvoted a lot. These comments often seem to be there for the sole purpose of getting upvotes. There has a become a cycle of *positivity* around the activity of dissing on this character. Here's the meat of the matter though, the name Moash actually doesn't seem to generate as much hatred as Sadeas or Amaram. It creates amusement. He isn't hated nearly as much as he is associated with lighthearted online banter. People make a "dynamic entry" with a post about how they hate Moash, generally get positive feedback and that's it. This is especially popular on forum games. (I have to admit to having dropped Moash's name in a similar manner but I did it to gauge receptiveness to disagreements against popular opinion during one of my first posts on this site. I had just come from reddit, I wanted to see how people would react. With burns or actual arguments. Thanks to AonEne for providing the latter.) People seem to find hating Moash funny. I'm genuinely curious (read: very worried) if someone will come and comment "I hate Moash, lol" or "this guy is #Moashdidnothingwrong" or just go "storm Moash" If you feel strongly about it, try to keep your comments restricted to Moash's actions against Elhokar and Kaladin. Edit 1: I forgot about the Shard's policy on cursewords. I think the real name of the reddit thread is obvious though Edit 2: minor grammatical corrections Edit 3: thank you for the upvotes, guys! Edit 4: I explain my rationale for creating this topic here: Edit 5: @AonEne's response to the same
  9. Kaldin mentioned that Moash has an Honorblade. Teft is not surprised. How can this be? They must know that Jezrien is dead. Have they kept it from the common troops? Does this mean that Jasnah's plan of killing Heralds is right out now? What does this tell us about the long time plans of the coalition? The Heralds cannot help them, the Everstorm is still blowing and Herdaz has fallen? Despair should be setting in.
  10. The first thing I would like the point out is that, this is something that came to my mind this morning when I was unable to sleep due to the heat in the UK at the moment, it could be very flawed and I could have had many things really muddled up. But, with everyones input and thoughts, I am sure more sense could be made out of this. Outside of the books, I must admit I am unsure with how much has been revealed from Sanderson himself, most of this could be unproven or thrown under the rug, but I think it's intersting. So, I have a theory about the Unmade, The Heralds and Honorblades. Basically, the history of the Unmade is very cloudy and in modern Roshar, their history is largely unknown. Some sources claimed there was 10 but it is generally assumed that there are 9. This I think is very interesting and quite important. There are 10 heralds, and only 9 Unmade (but there could be 10, see what I am getting at?). Ever since the Oathpact was abandoned, only 1 herald went to Braize, being Taln. This means there are 9 Heralds left on Roshar, incidentally there are 9 Unmade. I think there is a link there… I do believe that there are 10 Unmade, and even though sources indicate that they have existed on Roshar since before the Desolations, I debate how true this is (backed up by the clouded history). I think, in previous Desolations when the Heralds were trapped on Braize, they were being tormented and fighting against a specific Unmade (one per Herald, and its Voidspren). After the Oathpact was broken, and only Taln went to Braize, his Unmade went with him. Thus, 9 Unmade were on Roshar with the 9 Heralds, and 1 on Braize with Taln. [Off topic I thought of in my edit, but, the Unmade could be Odiums ‘Heralds’. We have seen the Fused use surges, maybe there are different types of Voidspren, similar to the different Spren needed for each order of Radiants: Honorspren, Cryptics, etc.] For whatever reason, the Voidspren remain trapped on Braize as long as one Herald and Unmade are present. (This I can’t seem to find a logical reason for, but I think it is important, something about a Herald being on Braize keeps them trapped, even if it is one Herald.) After Taln had given in, and returned to Roshar, everything on Braize was freed. Thus, the coming of the True Desolation. This also means I think a 10th Unmade has come to Roshar, one that has been ignored. (this backing up some sources from history that claim there were 10). This was the first thing I have been thinking on. Secondly, Moash and Honorblades. Moash killed Jezrien in a way that is unlike that in history, when a Herald got killed in history, they seemed to return to Braize, however, Moash killed Jezrian with a knife that contained a gemstone. I think Odium has been cunning in his planning. 4500 years had passed since the last Desolation, the longest time in history; this is A LOT of planning time. We don’t know much about the creation of Honorblades, and we know Shardblades are Spren that mimicked Radiant surges, but Honorblades are said to be a type of Splinter of Honor. I think however, Odium has found ways to create an Honorblade out of the Herald itself. This would be interesting, if the gemstone in the dagger Moash used has bound the herald, (also confirming this death being ‘different’), then perhaps that gemstone can be used to create a new Honorblade. And this could have interesting implications, imagine if his new Honorblade/Heraldblade?, allowed the wielder to become to new head of that order of Radiant. Imagine if, it actually allowed them to manipulate and ‘control’ the knights under that order; it would really mess up Dalinar’s plans. I feel like Moash will also be the first person to wield this. I find it too strange the Jezrien (being the order of windrunners, thus Kaladin, Moash’s ‘friend’) is the first Herald to be killed in this way. If a new kind of power is created from Jezrien, and Moash wields it, then, he could take control of the Windrunners, and if he is able to somehow influence them, he could turn them against Dalinar. And Moash being Moash, will probably try to convince Kaladin that this is the ‘right’ thing to do. Ironically, this could be what leads to Kaladin debating breaking his oaths, as what Syl and the Stormfather have been promising would happen, but this time, in a way that is ‘different’ to The Day of Recreance. Since this is the True Desolation, it would make more sense that things would turn out differently to how they have in the past, ESPECIALLY with this additional time Odium has had to plan.
  11. I’m wondering what’s going to happen with Vyre. It seems like there is destined to be a confrontation between he and Kaladin, probably many. Are they turning him into a new supervillain like Amaram? The way Khen and the other parshmen “wanted to be near him” reminded me of the bridgemen’s devotion to Kaladin. Is he taking over from Jezrien in some way, being that he killed him (or trapped him...?) and he has Jez’s Honorblade. Anyway I’m rambling a bit. What do you think Vyre’s role or purpose will be?
  12. Would it be possible for someone to use an Honorblade to an extent that they began to enter savanthood. Soulcasters can become savants but could an Honorblade.
  13. My question really all comes down to what would happen if a being like Kelsier, circa era 2, was stabbed by Vyre's knife? Would the same thing happen that happened to Jezrien? I think the heralds are preserved by Honor's investiture and they seem to have the perk of automatic incarnation after death, and Kelsier, preserved by Preservation had to get himself a body somehow to return to the Physical Realm, but like, would that knife kill him for good, or would it have no effect since he, you know, doesn't reincarnate anyway, but is just preserved as a cognitive shadow? I couldn't find any WOB directly relating to this.
  14. Dalinar and co. have been discussing the Heralds as a possible resource in fighting the Voidbringers. I think this idea is hella cool, and it would totally add sauce to the story, but... Taln is mad. Ash is kinda mad, or at least horribly depressed and wants nothing to do with humanity. Nale is bordering sociopathic. Ishar is...somewhere in Emul, I think? Trying to conquer it in some crazy war, which seems the mark of a madman to me, despite what Ashyn says to the contrary. Moash killed Jezrien, and it seems like he intends to do more. I don't know where the other Heralds are, but the Desolation is back and they're choosing to remain hidden, so...
  15. I've been thinking that Moash and Kaladin are maybe a bit like opposites; they were in a similar situation -- being in the bridge crews after tragedy befalling them or their families -- and Moash clings to revenge and he has that singular focus, while Kaladin turns away from revenge and arrives at the realization "I will protect even those I hate." (Speaking of which; isn't that such a totally mind-blowing statement?? I don't know if I could do that.) It seemed to me like they arrived at a similar crossroads and took opposite paths. Turning aside from selfish concerns to selfless ones. Thoughts?
  16. Ok, so my theory is that Vyre will become a Radiant of the Order of Skybreakers. In terms of Evidence to back this up, we have the fact that Vyre is very focused on Vengeance, and for bringing Justice to Elhokar for past crimes. We Have the fact that when Kaladin was going to kill Amaram, Syl told him that he wasn’t a Skybreaker so he shouldn’t, however Vyre DID decide to kill Elhokar. We have the fact that both Vyre and Nale came to the decision that the parshmen are the rightful rulers of Roshar, so Nale is set up perfectly to mentor Vyre. Also, we have information in the Epigraphs that the Skybreakers and the Windrunners are always at odds, so adding this extra layer to the Kaladin/Vyre confrontation will be quite interesting. Finally, Vyre is being set up as the new Assasin in White, so if he also became a Skybreaker it would make sense. So what do you guys think? Is Vyre some other Order of Radiant?
  17. I have been rereading Oathbringer and I am starting to notice a few connections between the various Moash parts that may relate to Odium's plans. First, the Fused are slowly going crazy because they have been reborn so many times. Also, it seems that the Fused do not have as fine of control over their surges as the corresponding Radiant orders. The Fused are also becoming a liability because they are being reborn at what seems like a greater rate than previous Desolations. Which means that Odium needs a replacement. Which leads us to Moash. First, the Fused are collecting Shardblades and Shardplate. Secondly, Moash kills Jezrien with a dagger that has a gem in the pommel and the wounds bleeds black smoke(similar to nightblood), we also know that the blade is functionally similar to hemalurgy. The gem in the pommel also lights up after Jezrien dies. So the blade is stealing something and storing it in the gem. Also, Odium only has nine orders of Fused and seems to be missing one for the Surge of Adhesion, which is a primarily Honor based Surge. Given that the Heralds have a direct connection to Honor through themselves which is channeled through the Honorblades, I think Odium might be trying to gain the ability for his forces to use Adhesion. Not in the Windrunner sort of way, but more like a Bondsmith. If he uses the dagger to give Moash the direct connection to Honor so that he can use the Honorblade with levels of power magnitudes larger than a Knights Radiant. Moash would then be able to act as basically a dark Bondsmith and unite Odium's forces. Which leads us to my next point: Odium wants and needs to replace the Fused. I think he wants to do this by making Voidbinding Radiants. I think the direct connection to Honor might be able to heal the shardblades long enough for Odium to corrupt the spren and then bond them to Singers or Humans. Which would give the Void Radiants less checks on their power than a Knights Radiant and more Surges and more control of said Surges than a Fused. Sure, Odium's power might burn through them quicker, but he can always get more people to bond. They could also be used to discredit Dalinar's Radiants through false flag attacks on allies. And with Moash's connection to Honor's investure, the Void Radiants could be powered without having to rely on stored investure. It would also fit with the whole Odium is the new Vorin god theory that has been floating around.
  18. I believe Odium’s forces – led by Moash – will kidnap Shallan. I think Odium needs either a Lightweaver or a Cryptic for some reason – perhaps to “re-make” Re-Shephir, whose captivity seems to have diminished her. Kaladin and Adolin lead Shallan’s rescue attempt. Kaladin secures Shallan, and Adolin fights furiously to allow Kaladin and Shallan to escape. He demands Kaladin leave him and take Shallan to safety. With no other choice, Kaladin finally speaks the Fourth Oath – (IMO) “I will protect the one I can save.” That’s the summary; here are the details. There’s a bit of evidence here and there, but, needless to say, this post is mostly invention, a tale. Foreshadowing Kaladin’s faced this situation before, when the Fused wound Adolin in Shadesmar. “Leave me,” Adolin said, coughing.” (OB, Chapter 117, Kindle p. 1116.) But Kaladin couldn’t leave him and “couldn’t say those Words. He wasn’t strong enough.” (OB, Chapter 118, Kindle p. 1132.) I believe Kaladin will have a second chance. He will say the Fourth Oath this time. I do not predict Adolin will die (though that’s possible). Maybe he’ll be an Edgedancer by then and escape himself. But Kaladin IMO will leave Adolin to protect Shallan, the one he can save. Odium’s Need for Cryptic The best evidence Odium needs a Cryptic is the OB Epilogue, where Hoid bonds one. Hoid notices the Fused breaking down the palace, as if searching for something. The Fused are not keen on Radiant spren of any type. But to me this shows surprising dedication to find Elhokar's Cryptic. The Fuseds’ motivation is unclear, but I link it to Shallan’s encounter with Re-Shephir. Shallan and Re-Shephir Re-Shephir’s captivity traumatized it. When it meets Shallan, Re-Shephir wants to replace Pattern and bond Shallan: Re-Shephir now knows Shallan as well as Shallan knows it, the perfect environment for bonding. Shallan says Re-Shephir is like a “wrong” creationspren. I suspect Cryptics are like the “right” creationspren. IOW, creationspren form the base of both Re-Shephir and Cryptics, which is why Shallan attracts them. I speculate Re-Shephir needs to be “Re-Made” - it’s become too fearful. I envision two possibilities – start from scratch with a new Cryptic or bond Re-Shephir to a Lightweaver to stabilize it. Either way, Pattern and Shallan will be natural Odium targets. Moash Why Moash? Odium clearly has plans for him. His star rises among the Fused when he kills Jezrien and accepts the Honorblade and the name Vyre. (Will he form a relationship with Lady Leshwi?) The human Moash can scout and enter places Singers can’t readily go. Five Singers Moash helped and fought with “want to be near” him – Khen, Pal, Nam, and two others. (OB, Chapter 122, Kindle p. 1222.) I see them forming the rudiments of a Singer Bridge Four. They are a natural strike force to steal Shallan. If Moash (or Odium) noticed Kaladin’s agony at seeing his friends kill one another, this group will be hard for Kaladin to deal with. Adolin must take the larger role in the fight because Kaladin may not be able to kill his friends. I don’t think this will be the last Kaladin-Moash confrontation. I believe Moash retains his loyalty and friendship to Kaladin on simmer regardless of what he thinks of other humans and their society. In the end, I think this one Connection will be enough to cause Moash to waver. Only Brandon knows if Moash dies or changes sides again. Conclusion All of this is raw but, IMO, reasonable speculation. Something to ponder as a possibility, nothing more.
  19. Kinda just spitballing here, but could the dagger itself just serve as like a bridge from the spirit web of a person to the gem in the pommel? Like maybe the gem is the detachable containment unit and once charged with whatever it is, you don’t “spike” yourself but maybe you could swallow a newly made artificial gem-heart of the “spren” of Jezrien?
  20. By now, we know it is possible to actually kill the Heralds and not just kill them through the use of a dagger from Odium's investiture and that Moash has been entrusted with it along with Jezrien's Honorblade. But it kind of strikes me as unusual that they only armed him with the honorblade after he has already murdered Jezrien. Is there any implication with him having it while he tried to kill the herald? I know that killing Jezrien is meant to be seen as more of a test of his loyalty/passion, but what if it wasn't an actual test but a requirement? What if they have a plan with Moash? One that might possibly involve killing all of the heralds and bonding with all of their honorblades? We already have a WoB that says a Radiant CAN bond with an honorblade, therefore giving him access to additional surges or making his surges a bit stronger if he has the honorblade of his own order. Can you imagine how powerful one man can become if he bonds with all ten of the honorblades? Wouldn't that make him the closest one to actually becoming Honor? What if this is Odium's plan for him all along? To have Moash gather all of the honorblades, then gather all of the splinters. Only now, he would become a twisted version of Honor, maybe Loyalty? Honoring his debt of gratitude from Odium? Seems to me that Moash's whole journey focuses about his revenge and lack of honor (betraying Kaladin). Is he fated to realize his mistakes and actually become the new shard of Honor? Not to mention also that the original Parshendi were also from Honor. What if they were working against Odium to restore their old god? What do you guys think?
  21. I think the dagger Moash uses does not 'kill' the herald so much as it somehow traps their soul (identity?) inside the gem on the hilt. From the book: Was it done this way to keep the current state of the Oathpact intact? The other Heralds POV we get mentions they sense the other's loss Does this means that they could somehow be freed from the gem later, rescuing/restoring them? Naturally, if any of this is true, I think it's possible we may see up to an additional 9 versions of such daggers with the appropriate gemstone on the hilt. Thoughts?
  22. From the album ShiroXIX's Art

    Moash is my favorite character and I will fight you.
  23. Hi guys. So I've seen a lot of people talk about Moash in threads so far. So I decided to start one on him. Here you can talk about what you think about his charachter. Weather what he has done is morally right. Moash, to me, represents what Kaladin could have become. They are both so similar and one of their biggest differences is a choice. Kaladin chose not to let his past rule him. While Moash let what Roshone and the king had done rule him. He let his past control him. I am of the opinion that Moash should be killed in this book. He has already had his second chance but instead of taking it he turned against bridge four. And later he joined the voidbringers and killed Elhokar. He let vengeance become his life. And when he fulfilled it he felt less fulfilled. What do you guys think?
  24. The lives of Kaladin, Moash, and Elhokar were placed on a collision course for tragedy after The Roshone Affair. In this event we infer that Moash's silversmith grandparents were imprisoned, and later died in prison, based on the greed of Roshone who used his influence over King Elhokar (in charge of Kholinar due to the absence of his father and Dalinar) to carry out the plot. When Dalinar was alerted to the disaster details were suppressed and Roshone was exiled. This single critical event would have a domino effect resulting in: the death of Moash's family and embittering of Moash the exile of Roshone to Hearthstone and the eventual levying into the army and death of Tien (destroying Kaladin's "innocence") Kaladin and Moash uniting in a temporary treasonous plot against Elhokar Kaladin temporarily losing his bond with Syl and nearly turning against Dalinar Kaladin and Moash experiencing a falling out, resulting in Moash being exiled from Bridge 4, and ultimately joining The Singers The death of Elhokar at Moash's hands. Many classic literary tragedies tend to have a critical miscommunication or misunderstanding at their root. There is also often a single antagonistic character whose manipulative or evil actions result in the downfall of others. I believe Queen Aesudan, not King Elhokar, was ultimately responsible for the death of Moash's family. Elhokar however, displaying his usual characteristics of loving and protective husband, along with his propensity to trust the wrong people, chose to assume responsibility for his wife's actions. This sets the perfect recipe for a tragedy wherein Kaladin and Moash are set on a path of vengeance based on the incomplete assumption that Elhokar was entirely responsible for the tragedies in their life. Moash ends up killing a person who did not bear true responsibility for his plight, and indeed Moash is now serving one who did bear responsibility for the evils done to him (Queen Aesudan, likely already acting under the influence of Odium+Unmade). I can't really prove this was likely the case, but it is a fun thought to consider, and it would connect a lot of clues and offer an important twist on the story. A couple possible clues: 1 - Approximate Time of the Roshone Affair This quote places the time of the Roshone Affair pretty accurately. It occurs in the brief interval where the Listeners had been discovered and King Gavilar had developed an interest in them, but before Gavilar had been assassinated. Perhaps one year or less before the assassination? Dalinar was likely in an alcoholic bender at this time instead of watching over and instructing Elhokar, another tragic "what if?" element to the event. The second half of this quote is interesting because at first glance the "someone he trusted" is heavily implied to be Roshone. It is worded just loosely enough though that Dalinar could be referring to a third party. 2 - If Aesudan was suspected of being involved in this affair, it explains certain reactions by Dalinar and Jasnah. We are never given a specific reason why Jasnah was arranging for an assassination of Queen Aesudan via Liss, nor why she eventually retreats from her request opting for further observation. If Jasnah highly suspected that Aesudan bore responsibility for the Roshone Affair (but wasn't completely certain due to Elhokar covering for her), that may be enough to make Jasnah highly consider an assassination, but then decide it needed further observation. We learn later that Jasnah considers the stability of her family's rule to be of critical importance, thus her recognizing that Aesudan is both a terrible ruler/person and also has the blind loyalty of Elhokar would establish Aesudan as a clear risk to the family's ability to maintain power and not coming into internal conflict with one another. We also are given heavy hints early on that Dalinar does not trust Aesudan. Mraize's letter indicates that Dalinar's trusted soldier Bordin was purposefully left behind in Kholinar to keep an eye on the Queen (Bordin later leaves the city to deliver Taln and the shardblade to Dalinar). Dalinar also seems distressed that Navani has left Kholinar, hoping that she would provide leadership advice to Aesudan. Navani declares however that the Queen is politically competent (and reading between the lines, likely ignores Navani's advice entirely). We later learn that Aesudan is a cruel and petty ruler who has been under the influence of Odium's Unmade for an indeterminate period of time. 3 - Characters of Elhokar and Roshone What was done to Moash's grandparents was monstrous, but in hindsight it doesn't seem to match the characteristics of either Elhokar or Roshone, the two characters we are told are responsible. Elhokar was a pretty terrible ruler for much of the time we are with him, he trusts the wrong people, and occasionally displays a temper. Even so, agreeing to throw some elderly artisans in the palace dungeons merely to financially benefit an ally seems much more cold-hearted than the Elhokar we know. If however Aesudan was responsible for throwing some inconvenient darkeyes in dungeon, it is fitting with Elhokar's character that he would try to protect her and refuse to think ill about her. Roshone is another character who while greedy, underhanded, and unpleasant doesn't seem to sink to the level of murderous to achieve his goals. Indeed in the Hearthstone flashbacks Roshone seem to rely on bullying and peer pressure to try to get back Lirin's stolen spheres, rather than directly threatening his family or imprisoning them. Lirin notes that he is of high enough Nahn to have rights against unlawful imprisonment by Roshone, but the events of the Roshone Affair clearly demonstrate a flaw with that line of thinking. The fact that Lirin and Hesina seem to have grown accepting of Roshone's presence by the events of Oathbringer may indicate that Roshone isn't as malicious as has been suggested. Perhaps Roshone originally proposed an underhanded scheme to pressure Moash's parents into joining his monopoly, but it was Aesudan who chose to escalate matters into imprisoning them? 4 - Elhokar's Cryptic Elhokar had attracted the attention of a Cryptic (liespren) and was on the path to becoming a Lightweaver before his tragic end. We'll never know for certain what specific lies Elhokar had been telling himself that attracted a Cryptic ("I am a good and effective King" seems one painful possibility). His uncompromising belief that his wife was a good person and just ruler seems very likely to have been one of them though. During the infiltration of Kholinar when he otherwise displayed traits of a good leader he repeatedly refused to consider the possibility that Aesudan was responsible for the situation in the city. Admitting this would likely have been one of his Truths for a Lightbringer oath. Thus completes the tragedy of Elhokar, his greatest flaw and the seed of his downfall was loving and trusting his wife too much. 5 - Random Quote That Probably Means Nothing Behold the offhand reference to a card game that Lirin makes when Roshone first arrives at Hearthstone: "The tower" is commonly used as a symbol of House Kholin, it and a crown are the chapter header image for Dalinar. Mentioning the Queen in contrast to the tower here would be a fantastic wink from Brandon if did turn out that the Queen (Aesudan), not the Tower (Elhokar) was responsible for the Roshone affair and its fallout. Or it might mean nothing at all