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Found 47 results

  1. So, what are everyone’s views about Moash, especially considering recent actions seen in the preview chapters? I understand there is a lot of grey area; perhaps you think that Moash is a good, but misguided, person. Or perhaps you think he is corrupted by the Unmade. Or maybe you can’t decide. As for the second question, the options once again have a fair bit of ambiguity. If Moash doesn’t get redeemed, he might just die without much of a conflict. Or perhaps Moash will live/die unredeemed, having destroyed Bridge Four and wreaked havoc everywhere. I am interested to see what everyone thinks about these questions.
  2. Rhythm of War spoilers ahead! Do not read unless you have finished it. If someone has already posted this, or if it's intuitively obvious, sorry. This is from RoW, Chapter 8: And this is from Chapter 111: These quotes show me that somehow, Odium has the power to suppress, or take away altogether, emotion. I'm sure it has similar mechanics to Soothing with Allomancy, but on a much larger level. But then there's this death rattle that makes me think there's something else: This death rattle implies that the Unmade Dai-Gonarthis, a.k.a The Black Fisher, also somehow has the ability to suppress or take away emotion. And because the Unmade serve Odium, this makes me think: What if the "gift" that Moash speaks of isn't directly from Odium? What if, instead, Dai-Gonarthis is the source of this ability to remove emotion, and Odium somehow delivers the power to Moash? This is something that has always seemed to fit for me. My theory is that Dai-Gonarthis is the source of Odium's ability to take away emotion. The one problem with this theory is that because Odium is the god of passion, it would make sense for him to have this ability himself, meaning that Dai-Gonarthis may have similar powers, but isn't necessarily behind Moash's emotionlessness. What do you think? What problems are with this theory? Was this already obvious? Tell me below!
  3. From the album Jess's Stormlight art

    A visual representation of what was going on in Words of Radiance, how both of them had sort of turned their backs on one another, and how Elhokar was unaware of the whole thing.
  4. Odium is hatred incarnate. Odium is passion. Odium is fervor, rage, divine wrath. And it's also unfathomable power, the power of a god. It's not going away. One way or another, odium is gonna be around at the end of the series. Now, there are of course a few ways you can make that fact less of a problem. The first is, of course, shattering Odium, like honor was shattered. I could certainly see that being the way this ends up being resolved. But there's another way to resolve this problem, too, and imo this resolution is a better fit for the themes of the stormlight archive. Someone takes up Odium who will channel it toward something good. Hatred and rage aren't inherently bad things. We like to think that hate is bad and love is good but in reality it's just not that simple. Love can cause you to excuse and overlook things you really shouldn't. To put up with abuse. And on the other hand, hatred can be justified. Sometimes, people do things that truly deserve to be hated, that the victim simply can't forgive them for. And sometimes, systems are built on the backs of people for whom hatred is a completely logical response. Systems like slavery, and dictatorships, and racism. And not even just hatred for the people on top of those systems (though not not for that either), but also for the systems themselves and the conditions that led to their creation. Odium can be channeled for good; for giving Passion to the downtrodden and oppressed. A force for change, a fuel to the fire within. Personally, I think someone taking up the power to use it for this purpose would be a more fitting resolution than simply shattering the power. Cause stormlight archive is a story about a war against odium, yes, but it's also a story about oppressive systems and the horrors they create. Shattering Odium may be a thematic ending to the first of these, but not to the second. Now, onto the question I know a lot of you have: Moash??? Yes, moash. Now, big disclaimer: This is something I'd expect to see at the end of his character arc (at least within this series- if he becomes a shard, we'll presumably be seeing him afterwards) which means he is absolutely not there yet. If he took up odium right now, it would not go well. But we still have one to six more books for him to evolve and grow. I see this coming after a long redemption arc. Stormlight is a series all about redemption and second chances, afterall. Right now, he's a character consumed by hatred, but I think a much more interesting resolution than learning to let go of that hatred is learning to channel it for something good. Cause honestly, he has all that hatred for a very good reason. And I think that Moash taking up Odium could be the force for change that roshar desparately needs. Now, there are other characters who could fill in this role as well. Chief among them, Kaladin. Kaladin has had very similar feelings as moash- they are narrative foils after all- and has every reason to personally hate oppression. He's currently in a much better emotional position to be able to do good with the power of odium than moash currently is. And at the end of Rhythm of War, we saw his eyes turn golden as he attacked the Pursuer, which is clearly setting up something, some kind of connection to odium, which means he might be in a good position to be able to take it up since you do have to be aligned with a shard in order to really hold onto it. I'll be honest, if Sanderson does go down the path of having someone take up Odium as a force for change, I fully expect it to be Kal. But I'm a moash girlie and in my heart of hearts I want it to be him, so here's my flimsy justification for why it should be. Kaladin's character arc has been more about leaving behind his hatred, and moving toward protecting people. Basically, he's been moving away from the parts of himself that are aligned with odium, while Moash has been running full force into them. And right now of course, that's really not going so well for himself or anyone around him. For Kaladin to be "odious" enough, his character would have to go backwards from where he is now to get him in a mental state more similar to the first book, whereas Moash could make forward progression and become a better person while still holding onto the odiousness that he has now. TL;DR Having someone take up Odium and channel the power to be a force for social change would be a good resolution to multiple plots, themes, and problems presented by the books, and moash's arc could take him to where he'd be in a good position to be that person.
  5. Hello, everyone! This is my first post here on the 17th Shard, so please excuse if I mark anything wrong on here. I do not know if this has been said anywhere else, but while listening to one of the Shardcast episodes theorizing about who would die in Stormlight book 5 and who would survive to make it to the back half, I had this thought come to me. It is a common theory that Kaladin will not make it to the back half of the Stormlight Archives since so much of the front half has centered around him, and so much of his character arc has already been completed. Thinking about how complete Kaladin's character arc feels made me realize how incomplete Moash's character arc has seemed to me. I do not know if anyone else has felt this way, but throughout all of the books it has felt like Moash should be an important character, but comes across more as a side character that sometimes is heavily involved with the plot. In theory, Moash's character and story arc seem really important and impactful, but I remember not feeling that way completely while reading the books, like I was waiting for more to be done with his character. In short, if Moash's charcter arc ended anywhere near where it is currently, I feel like I would be left with the impression that he was not used to his fullest extent. In addition, Kaladin cannot just die in book five. If he does, he needs to go out in a big and important way. He is too important of a character for anything else. This leads me to my theory. I am not sure to what extent spoilers need to be marked, so I am just going to mark the entire thing as a spoiler. Thoughts?
  6. Introduction: This started out as a twitter thread but the more I thought about it, the more ideas I had and the more it expanded. Family Before they were handed over to the Honorblades and became devout members of Stone Shamanism, Szeth’s family were farmers- the highest respected position in Shinovar. Given the name Stone Shamans and Szeth’s psychological state, we can assume that the Stone Shamans are a religious institution in Shinovar. Szeth’s family went from respected members to the lowest members of society. Later on, Szeth was labeled as truthless and kicked out of Shinovar. Here we have a powerful (religious) institution wielding their power and using it against their citizens which drastically changed the fate of Szeth and his family. As Szeth is labelled as truthless and exiled from Shinovar, he slowly learns that he wasn’t wrong and Stone Shamanism was false. He comes to view Shinovar’s “false leaders” as a great injustice. His solution is to cleanse Shinovar of its false leaders. Moash was raised by his grandparents who were darkeyed silversmiths in Kholinar. They were high ranking darkeyes - 2nd Nahn and Moash noted that they were important darkeyes. They had a competitive business enough to the point it bothered Roshone. He used his connections and powers to the crown to have Moash’s grandparents sent to jail. Despite Moash’s grandparents being important enough to demand a trial, they were not as powerful as the lighteyes and the Kholin Dynasty. They still lost their lives. The common thread here is that two institutional powers from two separate countries abuse their power, which causes two younger men from well regarded families to have traumatic experiences with institutional powers in their own countries. Despite being of important rank, it meant nothing compared to the institutional power. Their traumatic experiences both deal with their family being affected by those more powerful than them. They both have grievances toward these said powers and view murder as a method to solve their problems. Both of their closest family members died while they were away. Ishar killed Szeth’s father after Szeth was exiled from Shinovar. Moash’s grandparents were killed while he was working on a caravan. Manipulation (Relationship with Taravangian / Rayse) Taravangian used Szeth’s mental instability against him. He knew that Szeth was unanimously kicked out of his country and that had nothing else left to him except for his honor and Stone Shamanism, which Taravangian used against him. He made him into what he wanted - a weapon that terrorized the world. Hell, Taravangian had notes on manipulating Szeth. Any time Szeth stepped out of line, Taravangian made sure he was not to be questioned. Taravangian traumatized him to the point where if he moved abruptly it caused Szeth to jump with a sword. In Rhythm of War, he constantly has trauma responses to anything dealing with Taravangian. When he heard Taravangian needed a round stone with quartz inclusions” Szeth went into panic mode. He thought Taravangian was going to use him again. The only reason Szeth’s mental health slightly progressed is because of Nale. Rayse establishes his relationship with the fused, singers, and Moash on a lie. He appears to them as a singer when in reality there are no singer shards and he appears as a Shin person to Dalinar. If human-hating Moash ever found out Rayse was a human, it would diminish his perception on the shard. He makes Moash (and probably everyone who turns to Odium) dependent on him. Moash needs Odium to take away the guilt and the pain for this relationship to even occur. He positively reinforces Moash by telling him that he understands Moash. Rayse reinforces his authority towards Moash and tells him that he needs to fear him. Rayse uses Moash to get to what he really wants: Kaladin as his champion. Most people don’t really notice this aspect because Moash is planning to manipulate and abuse Kaladin at the same time he is being manipulated. Also, part of it is consensual, but still built on a lie. Despite being manipulated and used, they both are responsible for committing heinous crimes in the names of other people. Moash is responsible for trying to get Kaladin to kill himself. He is responsible for killing Teft and killing Jezrien at the demands of the fused. Szeth is responsible for killing the world leaders and plunging the entire world into chaos. Their psychology in this aspect is interesting because both of them are followers, not leaders. They have trouble forging their own lives. They are isolated from people, from human interactions, which makes it easier for them to be manipulated. Anger, Vengeance, and Hatred The word Vengeance is persistently used in relation to Moash. For instance, Kaladin tells Moash he just wants “petty vengeance” and Moash himself when questioned by the fused said he wants vengeance. Ever since we met Moash, he’s carried this grudge against Elhokar and let the hatred toward Elhokar build up and fester. We never met who Moash was before this event so that’s why he seems like a miserable person from the beginning. In The Way of Kings, Moash said he wanted to impose the same system that existed back on the lighteyes, not end the system entirely. He expresses that he wants to be in charge and have the lighteyes work the fields and die by Parshendi arrows – not that slavery should be abolished. He wants to hurt those who hurt him. Moashs’s wrath led him to irrational conclusions such as thinking killing Elhokar would do anything for Moash. He didn’t end the monarchy or solve anything between lighteyes and darkeyes. Did he avenge his grandparents? Maybe, but do you think his grandparents would love to see how their beloved grandson has been spending his time as a menace to society? He sought out to fulfill his own personal revenge because he was obsessed with punishing Elhokar. When Kaladin thwarted Moash’s plan to assassinate Elhokar, he said he would try to get justice for him, Moash didn’t want to listen because what he heard was Elhokar escaping his punishment. Moash viewed Elhokar has the sole perpetuator in his grandparent’s murder when in reality the entire system was to blame for their death from the king to (especially) Roshone to the palace guards to the conditions in the prison cell. In the end, vengeance meant so much to Moash that he let it break his relationship with Kaladin. Szeth’s greatest fear was someone taking advantage of him because he knew he would comply with their demands because of his honor. Taravangian manipulated and abused Szeth’s nature as truthless. Szeth has been hating Taravangian ever since he met him. He mentions he wanted to murdered him but his honor prevented him from doing so. It wasn’t until Szeth learned his father died did he let go of his tightly held honor and kill Taravangian. When Szeth killed Taravangian, he also killed Rayse which left a power vacuum open for Taravangian to take up in the similar fashion Moash killing Elhokar left a power vacuum open for Jasnah to step in and become Queen of Alethkar. They both killed people they held deep resentment and hatred towards. It wasn’t until their family member died did they unleash their emotions and start killing in anger. It was his family’s death that caused Moash to hate Elhokar for years and he let that resentment fester, until he killed Elhokar. It wasn’t until Ishar confirmed that he killed Szeth’s father did Szeth unleash his hatred towards Taravangian. Guilt, Pain, & Self-Hatred They both have extreme and exact opposite coping mechanisms when managing their guilt and pain. Moash gives into the pain. He doesn’t want to feel any pain. He wants to forget about everyone he’s hurt. Szeth is the exact opposite. He feels the pain. He feels the screams of those he killed. He doesn’t allow himself a moment of peace because he feels guilty for the people he’s killed. He carries his burden to his own detriment. Justice Justice is a theme for both characters. They both have been wronged by their respective societies. They both see the wrongs of their society because they have been personally wronged by it along with their loved ones. Neither of them mention a desire to make their society better. Moash cares about justice, but it’s different from a Skybreaker’s pursuit of justice. Moash brings up injustices and brings awareness to the reader of the injustices in Alethkar. On the other hand, Skybreakers deal with injustices and keep the upper class in check. “Another form of justice” is the title of the chapter where Moash says he wanted to assassinate Elhokar to Kaladin and avenge his grandparents. Revenge is another form of justice. In addition, when he was with the fused, he noticed how the listener slaves were being treated far worse than everyone else and demanded answers from the fused as to why this was allowed to happen Szeth’s motivation for cleansing Shinovar is ambiguous however it’s been on his mind ever since he learned he was never truthless. It could lean towards vengeance. He was unanimously kicked out of Shinovar. Unlike Moash, Szeth has a highspren, Nale (despite being crazy), and Dalinar to help and guide him in understanding justice. Szeth’s journey seems to be that he needs to learn what justice is, which is the theme of the next book. Fun Fact: There is a Seth in the bible, son of Adam and Eve, born after Cain killed Abel. Abel was considered “God’s chosen” and he was loved by God. Cain killed him out of jealousy. A common interpretation for him is that he’s a symbol of God’s law. No matter how many times you try to kill Abel, God will place a Seth. Evidently, Seth represents divine justice. Other Similarities Slavery: Both went from slave to warrior. Both were used as weapons to kill for their masters. Gifts from the Leaders of their Groups: Moash was gifted a shardblade by Kaladin who was the leader of Bridge four. Similarly, Szeth was gifted Nightblood by Nale who is the leader of the Skybreakers. Both men left their groups. Isolation from family: If Moash and Kaladin are the same age, that would mean that Moash lost his grandparents at age 14. He’s been without his family for 5 and half years. Working for the Kholins: Moash worked under the Kholins as a bodyguard for Dalinar then killed a member of the Kholin family. Inversely, Szeth killed a member of the Kholin family and eventually worked as a bodyguard for Dalinar. Diagram: they are both connected to it. Murders I don’t want to say there’s no difference between these two characters. They both have killed "gods" and kings. Most of Szeth's murder are people he wasn't close with nor did he kill people the readers are close to. Moash is on the opposite end. He killed Teft and Elhokar. After Image They both have after images. Moash “Moash shied away from the light—but a version of him, transparent and filmy, broke off and stepped toward the light instead. Like an afterimage." Szeth “And Szeth … if Szeth moved too quickly, he could catch sight of his own frail soul, attached incorrectly to his body, trailing his motions like a glowing afterimage.” Eyes In Rhythm of War, Taravangian describes Szeth’s eyes as “dead” and Navani’s describes Moash’s eyes as “lifeless.” Dead and lifeless are synonyms. There’s some heavy “the eyes are the gateway into the soul” metaphors that are going on here. “He prepared himself for the sight of Szeth. That haunted stare. Those dead eyes. Instead, at the window, Taravangian saw a young man with black hair peppered blond.” “Where were you, lighteyes, when your son condemned innocents to death?” He turned, affixing Navani with those lifeless eyes. Identity Issues (Name Changes) “Szeth-son-son … Szeth-son … Szeth, Truthless … Szeth. Just Szeth. Szeth of Shinovar, once called the Assassin in White, had been reborn.” - Oathbringer chapter 90 Naming convention in Shinovar is about which family you belong to and Szeth here is struggling to find where he belongs. Is Szeth part of his family? He hasn’t seen them or thought about them in years. Is he a skybreaker? He is a skybreaker but he’s not connected to the others in the order. Vyre is the person attached to Odium. Moash is the person he was once. He had this whole struggle. Moash was chained to Kaladin. Jezrien’s Blade Stormlight begins with Jezrien, the leader of the heralds, leaving his honorblade in stone, and abandoning humanity and Taln. The next chapter happens 4500 years after, where Szeth wields the same blade to kill Gavilar and Szeth views it as a curse. Everyone who has held the blade is troubled. This same blade was later given to Moash by the Fused for killing Jezrien. Syl in Words of Radiance say “No. But Kaladin, you have to understand. With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the...checks a spren requires.” Szeth and Moash came into vast amounts of Windrunner power without saying the Oaths required. This could be the glimpse into what went wrong on Ashyn. Two Blind Men Theory Szeth and Moash seems thematically fit the “Two Blind Men” story really well. Recap “Two blind men waited at the end of an era, contemplating beauty. They sat atop the world’s highest cliff, overlooking the land and seeing nothing.” “Huh?” She looked to him. “‘Can beauty be taken from a man?’ the first asked the second. “[...] ‘But what if your ears were removed, your hearing taken away? Your tongue taken out, your mouth forced shut, your sense of smell destroyed? What if your skin were burned so that you could no longer feel? What if all that remained to you was pain? You could not know beauty then. [...] “Then beauty, to that person, would be the times when the pain lessens. Central theme of this story is that beauty is experiencing less pain, which is a shared theme between these two characters because they don’t know how to handle their pain. Moash is constantly saying “take my pain” Szeth is experiencing the screams and guilt everyday and he’s not letting experience any moments of pleasure Side note (that may or may not fit this story): Szeth is referred to as a work of art and Nale did call Szeth holding onto his personal code “the only genuine beauty in the world.” Blindness Jezrien asked three people “have you seen me?” Dalinar was the only person who confirmed that he could. Moash said “no” and now he’s blind. I think this scene foreshadowed Moash becoming blind and it also might foreshadow Szeth becoming blind as well. “Have you seen me?” the man asked with slurred speech. (The Way of Kings Prologue) “Have you seen me?” the man asked as Moash knelt. “No,” Moash said, then rammed the strange golden knife into the man’s stomach. The man took it with a quiet grunt, smiled a silly smile, then closed his eyes. (Oathbringer) Conclusions Separately, these two characters seem to have vague similarities but altogether it starts weaving a greater picture. There has been a lot of prediction towards these two characters dying. Moash dying would only absolve Moash of what he did. Szeth dying would mean he’s free to never feel guilt for what he’s done. No, dying would be the cheap way out for them. Their stories seem lead towards a place where they need to live knowing what they did was wrong and deal with the pain.
  7. I Am Vyre If only Moash had known himself better, had accepted his pain, it wouldn't have come to this... Set between OB and RoW 3000 words Rated teen Heed the tags for content warnings!
  8. Okay, I am a new fan. I read and finished the first three books starting in December of 2020. My friend introduced them to me, and I fell in love pretty quickly. After I finished the third book, and while trying to get ahold of Rhythm of War (I am now reading it, I got an ebook since the paperback is still a long way off) (and there will be no spoilers for the limited part I've read of it), I fist finally looked online to what others thought of these great books. I tried to of course avoid any Rhythm of War spoilers, and think I entirely avoided them, but perhaps Moash's haters are affected by the book, I don't know. Anways, now to get to the point of this : I was flipping shocked by all the Moash hate. Like saying he should die. Saying he was the worst person ever. Hating every aspect of him. Keep in mind, the only book fanbase I am part of is ASOIAF, a fan base where Tywin storming Lannister has fans, so even the concept of everyone hating one character is impossible coming from that base. The most hated character in ASOIAF is probably Cersei, and even she has defenders or at least some nuance to the discussions involving her. And by the way, hated is relative, they like her as a character often, just hate her as person lol. Anyways, I came away from the first 3 books with, quite seriously, 0 hate toward Moash. I thought his actions were disappointing. He made the wrong decisions, and I see him as being written as a mirror for Kaladin, a Kaladin who decided to give into hate and revenge rather than protect and save. However, I'm not Kaladin. I understand Moash. I understand desiring revenge. I want to be Kaladin, I reach to be someone like Kaladin, but far too often do I end up seeing things like Moash does. Again, I don't know what happens in the 4th book, but..Moash through book 3 doesn't look a whole lot different than super popular characters like Tyrion or Daenerys or Arya in ASOIAF. I don't want to spoil anything in case people haven't read those books, but they have done things that I would argue are less forgivable than Moash. Half of American media, Moash would be a hero. John Wick kills hundreds for revenge. Moash just killed one dude. LIke, so much of American media glorifies characters who look...a lot like Moash. Revenge obsessed. Punishing those who have wronged or hurt them. There was a scene in the third book, when Moash first kind of goes over to the other side, and I thought it was hella realistic. He hates Alethi society, and he has a good reason to hate it. I personally think the fused are worse, and obviously Odium is worse; but...Moash doesn't know that. At least I don't think he does, from how he has been written so far. He's a lost soul. Someone who know longer can tell right from wrong, as his life has been tainted by people, that from his perspective, have acted unquestionably wrong, and yet are allowed to continue to exist, don't lose anything from their wrong actions, while his grandparents, and him by extension, have suffered despite in the past doing nothing wrong (now he has done wrong things, but...in the past). Now to get to an even more controversial opinion. I think Moash will have a redemption arc at some points. There are 6 more books after the one I'm currently written, and Moash being brought to his lowest point in many ways mirrors Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan being brought low. I mean, I'm sorry, but Dalinar has done way worse things (to the point I've read) than Moash has. Yet, he is redeemed. storm, if Dalinar can be redeemed, literally anyone can be redeemed in this universe. And I see Moash as probably eventually coming around, in fact I think Kaladin's ultimate form (whatever that may be) may be centrally located around saving Moash. Or perhaps Moash himself will come to that realization. I see the potential there anyways for a lot of redemptive things happening around Moash. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but although Brandon Sanderson does not border the line along black and white with gray characters as well as GRRM, he does have many of those aspects in his writing, and a lot of the characters could indeed be seen as gray. Now to get into what I really do like about Moash. One thing I loved, absolutely loved about The Way of Kings, is that Kaladin and Bridge 4 were so decidedly unimportant for large sections of the book. While Dalinar and Adolin were involved in heavy politics, Kaladin was just trying to save a group of 30ish men from death, and didn't care about the larger struggle nearly as much. I loved also that they were from the lower rungs of society, not at the top like Dalinar, Adolin, and Shallan (although not as high as the others). However, and perhaps unsurprisingly, they moved out of those ranks. By the beginning of Rhythm of War, all of them are important. They are radiants, they have moved up the rungs of society. Kaladin is essentially almost a prince a this point. Moash, in his chapters in Oathbringer, brought back at least some of what I loved about the Kaladin's chapters in the first book. As well, other members of Bridge 4 also brought some of that back. I think my favorite section of the book was the part where we just got Bridge 4, and not Kaladin's PoV. I loved it. Moash also brought at least some more nuance to the other side, much like Eshonai had in the previous book, and Venli did as well in Oathbringer. Tehy aren't just evil dark beings without thinking. When Moash helps train the Singers, it reminded me of Kaladin so much, and I actually wish that Sanderson had dived more into the relationship between Moash and the Singers. Given him some hope, some goodness. I actually think the writing doesn't have enough nuance so far, to be honest, Moash is too dark at the point we left him. Granted, he is probably bonded with a voidspren now? And we know from Eshonai and Venli that can effect your personality a lot. Finally, and I want this to be clear. Alethi society is incredibly unfair, incredibly unequal, and most of our main characters are from the upper class of that society. Moash is right about the injustices of that society. Kaladin has seemingly backed off on being angry at that society, but...they've done nothing to deserve him backing off. Things are still unfair. Things are still unequal. Granted Dalinar is changing things, so 'yay' I guess, but...in the injustices in that society aren't gonna storming evaporate overnight. Moash's hatred and not getting over those wrongs is UNDERSTANDABLE. I think one of the problems I see from the people who hate Moash is, quite frankly, they are probably white. They were born with white privilege. They don't flipping get it. Kaladin, and even more so, Moash, were born to a minority, a legally discriminated group, at that. Their society is like....worse, and more unequal than the United States in the 60's, and y'all expecting everyone to be a heavenly being like Kaladin? Kaladin's forgiveness of the higher ups in society is flipping Jesus like in his ability. Well y'all, I'm not Jesus. Are you? Can you forgive that easily. Like actually, the people who have wronged you in your life, can you instantly forgive them? Would you be able to let things go, save thoses who had hurt you, like Kaladin. I would guess that is a ridiculously rare, like over the top ridiculously rare percent of people who can do that. We are all Moash, we aren't Kaladin. I'm done. Out. Finish. Enjoy. lol. Tear me apart if you will. But turning the other cheek is not easy, and never has been. Very few people can actually do it.
  9. I'm re-reading the Stormlight Archive and I wanted to do something :o
  10. From the album ShiroXIX's Art

    Moash is my favorite character and I will fight you.
  11. DO IT! POUR IT ALL OUT HERE. Earlier I thought this 'Voidbringer' would come around but now, uh, no way I would see that happening anytime. But the way he talks about plans to Odium, something is really unsettling about him. Anyway hate him with Damnation's name. This man can only be redeemed in form of death.
  12. Warning: wall of text, privilege, systemic social issues Spoilers: complete Cosmere works, up to and including Rhythm of War I’m going to lay out what I see as an underlying thesis and theme of the various depictions of anger/vengeance/redemption/justice in the Stormlight Archive. My positionality in approaching this issue is that of a well-off, well-educated, cis-het white male, so keep that in mind any time I make an assertion that contradicts your lived experience. I expect that to happen, and can and should be challenged for it where warranted. I’d like to start with the concept of redemption, which is a strong theme of the Stormlight Archive, and more broadly speaking Brandon’s works in general. It’s important to separate our extra-textual understanding of Brandon as a religious person, because while that can inform his writing, it’s important to treat the text on its own explicit and meta-narrative levels without resorting to ‘because the writer is ___________’. All text has its own purpose the writer intends, as well as possibly contradictory understandings some or many readers form as they engage with the text. So, many characters of the Stormlight Archive are either in some process of redemption or have the ability to undergo a process of redemption: Dalinar, Moash, Szeth, Shallan (amongst many others) have either explicit harmful actions in their backstory or some kind of ‘low point’ to climb from. Whether that is specifically due to their own conscious choices varies, but the idea of redemption is present throughout the whole text. I was struck by the assertion in the latest Shardcast that ‘redemption is not something you deserve’, which I think is apropos here. To reduce it to its simplest form: you cannot ‘make up’ for killing someone. There is no price you can pay that is worth the pain of that cut-off life to those who are left behind. Questions of fairness cannot enter into a discussion of ‘redemption’. I teach a variety of subjects to middle school students, both music (my specialty), as well as religious studies, ethics, and health education (all kind of wrapped up in one course). One of the ideas we discuss frequently is that it is really problematic to answer the question ‘what is good?’ or ‘what does it mean to be a good person?’ No one would think positively of someone who walks into a room and says ‘Yes, I am a good person!’ We would interpret that as bragging, covering for hidden flaws, and various other negative connotations. So, then, what is ‘good’? What does it mean to be in the process of redemption? In judging this, we can take some textual evidence for what the Stormlight Archive envisions. Dalinar at one point states that ‘a hypocrite is just someone who is in the process of changing’ (paraphrase mine). I think this is perhaps the most obvious lampshading of the text’s understanding of redemption. Dalinar acknowledges that inconsistency is not a flaw of the process, it is an integral sign that redemption is possible. Only by acting counter to the way one used to can you demonstrate a true change - after all, if it’s not visible and clear to understand, you haven’t really changed. Another element to this process is the importance of choice. The Stormlight Archive, in spite of the strong ties to the typical ‘prophecy/future-sight’ approach of much epic fantasy, goes to significant lengths to show the critical impact of the free will of individuals. The fact that Elhokar is cut down at the very beginning of his journey towards what we might consider (potential) heroism by an individual who has begun a downwards arc of villainy demonstrates that choice matters. An individual has far-reaching and irreversible consequences on the lives they touch. Once freed from the blind obedience to the Oathstone, Szeth could easily have chosen to end his life permanently in dealing with the trauma of acknowledging his pain and the consequences of his actions. But he did not. I think this goes a long way towards contextualizing why we react so differently to the various characters (who are or have been pretty terrible people). Dalinar is someone who was, objectively speaking, a monster. He was a war criminal, a sadist, and a butcher, responsible for hundreds of deaths at his own hands, and thousands more committed under his direct orders, including all manner of non-combatants, who were bystanders in an aggressive war of conquest where their families were trying to resist what they saw as an invader. This is the kind of person that anyone would be justified in taking pleasure or relief if they were to be executed for their crimes. The amazing thing about Dalinar as a character is that the easy path would be one where he continues to drink himself into oblivion, especially once he regains his memories. We almost get that in Oathbringer. Having gone through all that he has gone through, knowing what he knows about the person he used to be, he could abdicate his positions, insist he be jailed or executed, and attempt to go for what we might consider a typical form of accountability. But he doesn’t. He chooses to live with his pain, and chooses in spite of that pain to attempt better. There is no forgiveness. He can’t and doesn’t expect it. Forgiveness is a demonstration by the wronged that they are strong in spite of the pain, not an absolution for the guilty. Now we can contrast this with Moash. Moash is justified in feeling anger towards Roshone and Elhokar for the injustices committed against his family. He has experienced a similar loss to Kaladin, Teft, and others who have all suffered at the hands of the nobility. He feels incredible pain, and seeks methods to redress those wrongs. And so he chooses to attempt (and of course, eventually succeed) at taking the lives of those who have taken so many others. What is interesting about Moash is that his choice is one that in fact copies what was done to him. The way it is written makes it clear that Moash is another tragic event in an endless cycle of tragic events. His choice continues the cycle, in contrast to Dalinar’s, which attempts to alter the cycle. It’s worth noting that although Moash succeeds in ending Elhokar’s life, he does nothing himself to address the possibility of another ‘Moash’ happening in the future. Jasnah talks a good game about changing the way the monarchy works, but that cannot be laid at Moash’s feet (we’re not here to take away her agency). After getting his vengeance, Moash goes on to experience the result of giving up his emotion to Odium, feeling vacant, and outwardly pursuing a course of extreme nihilism, attempting to encourage others to seek oblivion. It wouldn’t be hard to imagine Moash’s ideal end goal becoming the nothingness that we might remember from Ruin’s viewpoints in Mistborn. So Moash chooses a path that brings him some kind of warped form of peace, but certainly drastically alters how others perceive him, as well as inflicting another cycle of pain on those left behind (we can already seen the results of this in how Gavinor envisions his future as a warrior in Rhythm of War). But, for better or (especially in this case) worse, Moash’s choice matters. From the comparison of these two viewpoints, let’s turn towards Kaladin and the Knights Radiant in general. The text has gone out of its way to show that the Radiants are flawed. Both in past and current incarnations, oaths have been broken, injustice has been allowed to continue, and even those chosen for Radiance almost by necessity exhibit near-fatal flaws. Kaladin suffers from mental health issues, trauma, and an almost crippling inability to let others take responsibility instead of him. Syl is constantly trying to work with him on how to take that drive, that pain, and turn it into action to help and protect others. And he frequently fails - boy, how does he fail! In spite of that failure, we get great moments where he chooses the hard way, standing up for his beliefs in spite of his failure. Nowhere is this more obvious than the scene in Words of Radiance where he defends Elhokar (from Moash, no less). Kaladin up to this point has actively chosen courses of action that make Elhokar’s death at the hands of his friend more likely. His key realization is a version of the statement earlier on that no price is sufficient for a lost life! He realizes that people are people, and someone murdering the king would be in many ways identical to his brother being killed. He explicitly calls out that what matters is that Elhokar is trying. Elhokar’s choice matters, and if his choice matters, then Kaladin’s matter, too. And he swears the second oath as a result. We are shown through the relations between Kaladian/Syl, and the Radiants and their spren that that is not what matters. What matters is that they try. What matters is their choices. I face this issue a lot when trying to teach students about social justice and systemic oppression. The problems confronted by any imperfect society are monolithic, and the reproduction of those systems is buried deep in the patterns of how we are raised from a very young age. And so it can seem daunting to contemplate changing it. In fact, it is actually impossible that any one person will effect enough change to see the results in their lifetime. It would be easy in that situation to throw one’s hands up and say ‘I can’t change the world, so I might as well not go through the heartache.’ I think that the text is saying that that is no excuse. Just because you can’t change the way the world works by yourself is not an excuse to not choose to try. If enough people make that choice, that is what changes the world. As the text says “What is the most important step a man can take? It’s the next one.” So what is good, or justice, in the Stormlight Archive? Good means choosing to do better. Not best, but better. Anyone is capable of this at any time. Is it justice that they are not killed for their crimes? Not precisely. It is justice that the attempt is made, and it is justice that the wrongs are acknowledged. Dalinar’s story so far has done a better job of showing us that acknowledgement than, say, Szeth’s. Although everyone else acknowledges what Moash has done, critically, he has not. He has not chosen the path that leads to redemption yet. Is it possible? If what truly matters is the person’s choice, as I would argue the text believes, then it is possible that Moash may make the choice at some point to pursue that road. It will be painful. It will be unpleasant. Readers and in-text bystanders alike will have a hard time stomaching it. But, and this is why we love those stories, it reminds us that none of us are so imperfect that we cannot, too, choose redemption.
  13. I'm curious to know Odium is able to sense Moash's thoughts and take away his pain, basically influencing him. I thought shards are only able to hear thoughts and influence their subjects only by hemalurgy, something we saw in the mistborn books. Also, Odium is wounded from the battles with Ambition, Honor, Dominion, and Devotion, and he's confined to Braize, so I'm not sure how he affects and influences his followers so strongly. It seems unlikely that Odium is aware of Hemalurgy, so is it just about being willing to give in to his rule, such as what he tried to do with Dalinar, or singers with voidspren in their gemhearts?
  14. From the album Memes!

    *sets Moash's eyebrows on fire* feel the burnnn
  15. I just finished the book and I loved it but admittedly, I feel a little devastated at what happened to Lift (her legs died when Moash ran his honor blade through them). Am I correct in assuming her legs cannot be healed from something like this? If so, I guess I would like to read theories for how she will bounce back and possibly regain the ability to use her legs. Any thoughts?
  16. A comment on YouTube was the inspiration for this one.
  17. At the end of RoW, Moash appears to be physically blind, and it appears to be permanent. Without getting into the reasons for his blindness, the question remains, what is Moash's character arc from now on? Will he just go out with a whimper and no bang? I really hope not. He's too well developed a villain for him to go out like this. So here is my theory: At the end of the book we see El spike Lezian. This indicates that he is either competent in, or experimenting with Hemalurgy. We know from Khriss's notes that Hemalurgy has vast implications cosmere-wise. All that being said, my theory is that Moash will find his way to El at some point in book 5 and El will spike Moash, Inquisitor style, and this is how he will regain his ability to fight and be a villain with style once again. I imagine that with the spikes, he would be able to see investiture or he will be able to see into the cognitive realm in some way. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this!
  18. I thought about this while thinking about how Sanderson has treated other "inexcusable actions" OB spoilers below: RoW Spoilers: A lot of similarities right? I dismissed the similarities since there aren't any Bondsmith spren I see vibing with Moash but then Sanderson released that Knight Radiant order quiz, and he spoke about how even though they don't become radiant, Bondsmith squires still swore oaths simply for the ideals they represent. I could see Moash working under the current bondsmith in order to repent Bondsmith Ideals really go along with Moash and would be perfect for a redemption arc. Of course I don't like Moash for what he's done, but Dalinar's done just as bad and he's my favourite character in fiction, so the presentation is really the reason I forgive one over the other. The presentation as Moash as a villain makes me think this is unlikely but I just thought this would be a cool way for his story to go
  19. Moash was one of the characters I was most interested in when starting Rhythm of War, and while I wasn't thrilled with how he was written in Rhythm of War, and I wouldn't say that I'm coming around to it, I am starting to think maybe it could work depending on where the character goes in the future. Which makes me wonder, what even is his purpose in the story now? I feel his arc as Kaladin's foil has been completed, Moash gave up on caring because it's too painful while Kaladin accepts that caring is painful but he continues to move forward anyway. Even more than that, he even had a confrontation with Navani, who was able to defeat the man who killed her son. He's lost, he could have easily been killed off at the end and I don't think anyone would have felt unsatisfied but he's still standing regardless. Villains in Stormlight don't really last long, after a couple books, most of them either die or switch sides, even Rayse isn't immune to this, especially if you consider that he only actually appears in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, yet Moash of all people sticks around. He's been an antagonist in three books and he's approaching a fourth, making him one of the longest lasting villains in the series, behind Taravangian. So far Moash has only really served as a counter to Kaladin and Radiants in general (a big theme of RoW was what makes people good is the fact that he can change, but Moash doesn't) but if that's all he is, why hasn't he been killed off yet? It's possible that Moash could eventually get a redemption, but I kind of doubt it. Throughout Rhythm of War, you constantly have characters remarking about how terrifying, monstrous and evil he is. The same could be said of characters like Szeth or Raboniel, but for those characters there were also moments put in to signal to the readers that these were characters that could be sympathized with, but there's nothing like this for Moash. Even when he gets his pain back for a second, it's made clear that he feels worse for himself than Teft, as if to signal to the reader that we really shouldn't have any sympathy for him. Even if he did get redeemed, what would he do? He can't exactly go to the coalition, the Alethi are notoriously unforgiving of regicide. At one point I thought he'd join the listeners, but I think he missed the boat on that one. Honestly I'm half expecting it to turn out that he just froze to death on the mountain after the end of Rhythm of War.
  20. So, seems like Moash is now blind: "But he couldn't see them. No matter how much Stormlight he was given, his eyes didn't recover. He was blind" Why do you think this happened?
  21. Vyre used the knife to kill Jezrien and Jezrien flipped out. But he wasn't even a human he was more like a spren. So was the material of the blade Odiumite? I mean Harmony, Trell, Ati, and Leras all had God metals. Why not Odium? And if so is Honors metal the metal that shardblades and the oathgate are made out of. And do we know anything about Cultivation's metal? These are questions that have been running through my mind lately.
  22. Somewhere after finishing WoR, I remember going online and seeing a thread on Reddit about creating a new thread called r/stormmoash. I was vaguely amused, I most certainly did not expect it to become what it has become today. Stormlight has had some less than True Hero™ characters. This complexity has always been part of what made me love the series. Some characters, like Shallan and Adolin as well as Elhokar are quite notably polarizing. I would count Dalinar in that group too post-Oathbringer. Some are more reviled: Sadeas, Amaram and Moash. To my surprise, opinion on Kaladin too seems to be quite divisive, mostly due to the existence of the previous characters. He is pointed out as being more traditionally heroic, in contrast to the other characters, on top of being depressing. He seems typically moral than the more complicated history of Dalinar and less fun to read or interact with than Adolin and Shallan. Some people have also taken issue with Kaladin's view of Lighteyes. Dalinar: I feel already tired of explaining my views on him. There are two new threads where I have put forward my views on him "moral miscalculations of Mr Sanderson in Oathbringer" by Parallax and "Dalinar's Genocide" by Hakusho Slick. Shallan and Adolin mostly come under heat because of their casual racism. Many seem to be thoroughly incensed by Adolin referring to Kaladin as "bridgeboy" as well as his comments on "the world changing" when "even darkeyes have access to Shardblade", the fact that he makes that comment about women having Shardblades also tends to draw frowns (although it is notable that he makes that comment in a positive manner, offering to teach Shallan how to properly wield a Shardblade) One of the most quoted things for hating against Shallan is the same scene with Adolin, where he makes the comment mentioned above about Shallan's worry about seeming feminine while lugging about a Shardblade. She responds by thinking "thank you for comparing all women to peasants".... Oof. There is the infamous boots scene with Tyn where she bullies Kaladin into giving her his boots. Before that, once again with Tyn, they both try on something (I forget, eye drops? lens? I think it was the former) to darken their eye colour so they could move about freely. Shallan is very excited to shed lighteyes propriety. Then she suddenly gets really worried that there might exist something to make darkeyes seem lighteyes. The point I'm trying to make by going on a spiel about these characters' various controversies is that these things are discussed. Negative opinions and accompanying evidence are examined, others' point of view seen as valid, arguments and counter-arguments are made, and so on. I'm not saying Moash isn't discussed. I've seen the threads and topics. For example, the Vyre discussions. I'm pointing that a disproportionately large amount of disliking Moash seems to have become popular simply due to trending. Oh yes, what he did was not okay but we have characters like Sadeas, Amaram and Roshone right there beside him. Moash killed Elhokar at a pivotal moment. Elhokar did genuinely try to change and was close to swearing his Ideals. Moash succeeded where the others (except Roshone, RIP Tien) didn't, as Sadeas failed in his Battle of the Tower plot and Amaram failed to dispose of Kaladin. But there are no threads or discussions simply dedicated to only hating on any of these other characters. I mean discussions like Shallan Davar disgust thread do exist but the Moash thing has gone out of control. Moash has the aforementioned very famous hashtag on reddit, where people simply drop in to say that they hate him with almost the same frequency that they say "I am Stick". There are discussions dedicated to simply hating on Moash. As well as various other such threads on who would kill Moash, etc. People casually drop "I hate Moash" or variations thereof, which get upvoted a lot. These comments often seem to be there for the sole purpose of getting upvotes. There has a become a cycle of *positivity* around the activity of dissing on this character. Here's the meat of the matter though, the name Moash actually doesn't seem to generate as much hatred as Sadeas or Amaram. It creates amusement. He isn't hated nearly as much as he is associated with lighthearted online banter. People make a "dynamic entry" with a post about how they hate Moash, generally get positive feedback and that's it. This is especially popular on forum games. (I have to admit to having dropped Moash's name in a similar manner but I did it to gauge receptiveness to disagreements against popular opinion during one of my first posts on this site. I had just come from reddit, I wanted to see how people would react. With burns or actual arguments. Thanks to AonEne for providing the latter.) People seem to find hating Moash funny. I'm genuinely curious (read: very worried) if someone will come and comment "I hate Moash, lol" or "this guy is #Moashdidnothingwrong" or just go "storm Moash" If you feel strongly about it, try to keep your comments restricted to Moash's actions against Elhokar and Kaladin. Edit 1: I forgot about the Shard's policy on cursewords. I think the real name of the reddit thread is obvious though Edit 2: minor grammatical corrections Edit 3: thank you for the upvotes, guys! Edit 4: I explain my rationale for creating this topic here: Edit 5: @AonEne's response to the same
  23. Kaldin mentioned that Moash has an Honorblade. Teft is not surprised. How can this be? They must know that Jezrien is dead. Have they kept it from the common troops? Does this mean that Jasnah's plan of killing Heralds is right out now? What does this tell us about the long time plans of the coalition? The Heralds cannot help them, the Everstorm is still blowing and Herdaz has fallen? Despair should be setting in.
  24. The first thing I would like the point out is that, this is something that came to my mind this morning when I was unable to sleep due to the heat in the UK at the moment, it could be very flawed and I could have had many things really muddled up. But, with everyones input and thoughts, I am sure more sense could be made out of this. Outside of the books, I must admit I am unsure with how much has been revealed from Sanderson himself, most of this could be unproven or thrown under the rug, but I think it's intersting. So, I have a theory about the Unmade, The Heralds and Honorblades. Basically, the history of the Unmade is very cloudy and in modern Roshar, their history is largely unknown. Some sources claimed there was 10 but it is generally assumed that there are 9. This I think is very interesting and quite important. There are 10 heralds, and only 9 Unmade (but there could be 10, see what I am getting at?). Ever since the Oathpact was abandoned, only 1 herald went to Braize, being Taln. This means there are 9 Heralds left on Roshar, incidentally there are 9 Unmade. I think there is a link there… I do believe that there are 10 Unmade, and even though sources indicate that they have existed on Roshar since before the Desolations, I debate how true this is (backed up by the clouded history). I think, in previous Desolations when the Heralds were trapped on Braize, they were being tormented and fighting against a specific Unmade (one per Herald, and its Voidspren). After the Oathpact was broken, and only Taln went to Braize, his Unmade went with him. Thus, 9 Unmade were on Roshar with the 9 Heralds, and 1 on Braize with Taln. [Off topic I thought of in my edit, but, the Unmade could be Odiums ‘Heralds’. We have seen the Fused use surges, maybe there are different types of Voidspren, similar to the different Spren needed for each order of Radiants: Honorspren, Cryptics, etc.] For whatever reason, the Voidspren remain trapped on Braize as long as one Herald and Unmade are present. (This I can’t seem to find a logical reason for, but I think it is important, something about a Herald being on Braize keeps them trapped, even if it is one Herald.) After Taln had given in, and returned to Roshar, everything on Braize was freed. Thus, the coming of the True Desolation. This also means I think a 10th Unmade has come to Roshar, one that has been ignored. (this backing up some sources from history that claim there were 10). This was the first thing I have been thinking on. Secondly, Moash and Honorblades. Moash killed Jezrien in a way that is unlike that in history, when a Herald got killed in history, they seemed to return to Braize, however, Moash killed Jezrian with a knife that contained a gemstone. I think Odium has been cunning in his planning. 4500 years had passed since the last Desolation, the longest time in history; this is A LOT of planning time. We don’t know much about the creation of Honorblades, and we know Shardblades are Spren that mimicked Radiant surges, but Honorblades are said to be a type of Splinter of Honor. I think however, Odium has found ways to create an Honorblade out of the Herald itself. This would be interesting, if the gemstone in the dagger Moash used has bound the herald, (also confirming this death being ‘different’), then perhaps that gemstone can be used to create a new Honorblade. And this could have interesting implications, imagine if his new Honorblade/Heraldblade?, allowed the wielder to become to new head of that order of Radiant. Imagine if, it actually allowed them to manipulate and ‘control’ the knights under that order; it would really mess up Dalinar’s plans. I feel like Moash will also be the first person to wield this. I find it too strange the Jezrien (being the order of windrunners, thus Kaladin, Moash’s ‘friend’) is the first Herald to be killed in this way. If a new kind of power is created from Jezrien, and Moash wields it, then, he could take control of the Windrunners, and if he is able to somehow influence them, he could turn them against Dalinar. And Moash being Moash, will probably try to convince Kaladin that this is the ‘right’ thing to do. Ironically, this could be what leads to Kaladin debating breaking his oaths, as what Syl and the Stormfather have been promising would happen, but this time, in a way that is ‘different’ to The Day of Recreance. Since this is the True Desolation, it would make more sense that things would turn out differently to how they have in the past, ESPECIALLY with this additional time Odium has had to plan.
  25. I’m wondering what’s going to happen with Vyre. It seems like there is destined to be a confrontation between he and Kaladin, probably many. Are they turning him into a new supervillain like Amaram? The way Khen and the other parshmen “wanted to be near him” reminded me of the bridgemen’s devotion to Kaladin. Is he taking over from Jezrien in some way, being that he killed him (or trapped him...?) and he has Jez’s Honorblade. Anyway I’m rambling a bit. What do you think Vyre’s role or purpose will be?