Search the Community
Showing results for tags 'lirin'.
Found 4 results
Fanghur Rahl posted a topic in Stormlight ArchiveSo for a while now I’ve been thinking about this subject, and the other day I had made a post in the Stormlight Facebook group addressing it, and it ended up being a pretty big hit there, with reactions ranging from people loving it, to thinking it’s interesting but likely misguided. So I wanted to lay this out here as well and get some more feedback on it. So ever since I listened to Stormlight Archive the second time, with the benefit of hindsight from my first listen-through, I began to wonder whether there might be potentially more to Lirin (Kaladin’s father) than meets the eye. But at first I couldn’t quite place what it was about him that seemed off about him to me, but recently, it hit me. I realized that literally every single one of Kaladin’s ideals thus far, including what his fourth one is most likely to be, namely accepting that you can’t save everyone and to not allow your failures to prevent you from doing what you can, are things that Lirin has explicitly tried to instil in Kaladin and also operates by himself. In short, Lirin almost seems to me to be a Windrunner without a Spren. The first ideal is really too broad to find anything specific, but the second and third are very explicit in that he dedicates his life to helping people whose lives are in danger, he very explicitly was put into a situation in which Roshone, a man he had every reason to despise and allow to die, had his life entirely in Lirin’s hands, and Lirin chose to do what he knew was the right thing and save his life, which is the third ideal of the Windrunners. And he also has told Kaladin on more than one occasion that he no matter how hard he tries, he can’t save everyone, and that he needs to come to terms with that inevitability, which is most likely at the very least related to the fourth Windrunner ideal. So again I say, Lirin seems to be very Windrunner-y in his philosophy, with the only real difference being the way in which he chooses to protect people, namely as a surgeon rather than a soldier. Now I don’t believe for a second that Brandon wrote his character this way accidentally; the parallels are just to explicit for that. But the question is: what does it mean? And could it possibly be hinting at something? Now, before I go any further, I just want to freely admit that I have very little confidence that this theory is correct, as there are many other explanations for this that are much simpler, but I still think it’s at least worth laying out. So, here’s my admittedly unlikely theory: what if Lirin is a former Windrunner? Specifically a Windrunner from the time of the Recreance? Now, like I said, I realize how unlikely this probably is, but I don’t think it’s completely out of the question. After the Recreance, I think it’s entirely possible that some of the disgraced Radiants may have chosen to go into exile and leave Roshar, maybe becoming worldhoppers. And we know that worldhoppers often gain a greatly extended lifespan by as yet unknown means. And the one piece of evidence I have for this is how thickly Lirin lays on the whole ‘violence is always bad; nothing good can ever come of it!’ spiel. The way he speaks of that, and his conviction, seems to me to bespeak some deep familiarity with war and conflict. And the Radiants at the time of the Recreance pretty much got the ultimate example of this by their unwitting lobotomization and subsequent enslavement of the Singer species. With the Windrunners probably being even more deeply disturbed than many other orders by virtue of how much their order was all about protecting people and doing the right thing; I happen to be in the camp of fans who suspect that the horror of realizing what they had done to the Singers probably caused many of them to consider their oaths broken. And if Lirin was one of them, I can easily imagine his guilt driving him to be a hard pacifist, which he clearly is, and changing his method of protecting people from the role of a soldier to the role of a healer. And the other somewhat intriguing thing is that Lirin had a very interesting reaction to seeing Kaladin use his Windrunner powers, namely to look horrified and dismayed, maybe because he knew first hand what those powers could potentially cause and was horrified that his son now possessed them? Again, clearly there are many other possible explanations for this, and I freely admit that even I think that most of them are probably much more likely than this one. But I will say one thing with conviction, and that is that regardless of whether he’s a former Windrunner or not, I do think that Brandon must have written his character like this for some reason. One doesn’t just overtly display pretty much the entire Windrunner philosophy (in stark contrast with 99.9% of the rest of Roshar) for no literary purpose. Like I said, the only question is what that literary purpose is in this case? Could Brandon be hinting at something more important here? What does everyone think?
These are the comments I put on the Oathbringer sample chapters page on Tor's website: I wouldn’t be too surprised if Lirin had been training her since birth. Maybe he was desperate to produce a surgeon after both his sons left and so he gave his infant daughter a scalpel and started teaching. So now we have Mara, the (at most) four and a half year old sergeon. But he kept her training secret the first few years and got her to pretend to be bad. He accidentally slipped and said that she had been trained for “a few years” when he should have said “a couple of years”. and: Something else that supports my theory is that when Mara was born Lirin knew that he would have to train his daughter to be an expert surgeon before she had to start covering her safe hand (since as someone before mentioned, silk/cloth gloved hands are not great for surgery). What do you guys think? Edit: I guess not, oh well.
Have Lirin and Hesina even tried to contact Kaladin after he joined the military? In his own PoV, I think it's implied that neither have for some time, perhaps never in his entire military career, but in his earliest flashbacks, it is obvious that they both loved him very much. In fact, before Kaladin and Tien were recruited, his mother basically told him that he didn't have to follow his father's path and choose another career if that's what made him happy. Sure, Kaladin may have disobeyed his father's wishes and disrupted his plans, but he is still as much their son as Tien is. No parent ever wants to see their kids die before them, not when your last conversation ended with bitter and angry words. So whatever the reason for their silence, Tien's death should be more than the incentive they needed to contact him, even if it's just to mourn his death together through letters. Unless they got real busy and popped out another one in the past five or six years, he is their last son. Plenty of men have joined the army and survived. He's also done very well for himself before the Amaram incident, youngest squadleader and all. There's no reason for them to completely ignore him as they did... ...Unless Tien's and Kaladin's recruitment into the military was not Roshone's final stroke. As weak as Roshone is, he is still a brightlord, a cousin to a Shardbearer. What little power he has, he can still use to inflict a lot of damage if he wanted to do so. And the loss of his only son could be the last push he needed to dish out the hurt. Kaladin have suffered so much, and it chills my bones just to think of it, but could something have happened to his parents that prevented them from something as simple as responding to their son's letters? And if so, what does this mean for Kaladin as a character? A part of me thinks that they're both alive and well, that Amaram decided to take it upon himself to protect/provide for them after the way he stabbed their son in the back, but this whole situation at Hearthstone stinks if you ask me.