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Found 85 results

  1. Spook and Kelsier as the two sides of Scadrial. ^-^
  2. I don't know if I am just very late into Mistborn characters' morality discussions or if these things were really just sadly overlooked. While Stormlight characters have multiple topics analyzing them, I've found very few doing the same for Mistborn characters, with Kelsier being the one notable exception. There have been previous topics discussing Kelsier in this context such as: https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/comments/7t5rdz/tfe_i_was_disappointed_in_the_ending/ My thoughts regarding the same, well, I think that the stakes as well as the context for his hatred made his actions quite understandable: the Nobles were gits, who practiced extortion, slavery, rape and mass executions. Kelsier intended to die and with his plans with the Kandra, to inspire the Skaa via the one element that Sazed recounted lasted the longest against the Lord Ruler: religion. He did have a very high opinion of himself and wanted to leave quite the legacy behind by becoming a god, he ultimately had no concrete plans for dealing with the Lord Ruler or the Inquisitors, and what he did could be seen as a form of escapism. Does this make him a bad person? I was talking with @Michael Marssen regarding the morality of characters from Stormlight and Mistborn, about Shallan & Dalinar, and the big four of the original Mistborn trilogy: Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Sazed. I will quote my thoughts on Kel, Vin and Elend from this conversation for expediency's sake ~Stormlight, Oathbringer spoiler~ But there has already been enough discussion on this character. So, I won't rehash those and instead move on two other characters who I believe should also be discussed within the same frame: the main couple, Vin & Elend Vin Vin notes herself to be a creature of instinct and in WoA muses that she isn't a judge but an executioner... or something along those lines, I forget the exact quote. The highlight here is her wholesale slaughter of the Cett soldiers while sparing only Ashweather Cett himself, intending to also kill his son Gneorndin for trying to defend his father. Elend I really feel iffy about the two executions that Elend committed: of his former friend Jastes Lekal and the Skaa soldier, Bilg. For those who've forgotten, Jastes Lekal was a fellow idealist and compatriot of Elend Venture and Telden Hasting. They often met at balls and discussed politics. After the collapse of the Final Empire, Jastes fled Luthadel to his home Dominance where he tried to implement several of Elend's ideas in governing his lands, such as freedom and political honesty, which was seen as a sign of weakness and led to his family members were culled off by the new rulers when they took control. He became unhinged and recruited an army of Koloss by paying them with fake coins to beseige Luthadel. He was caught by Elend trying to flee in the aftermath and summarily had his head lopped off. Bilg was a Skaa who was sceptical about the chances of a successful skaa rebellion. He just wanted to live. He saw through Kelsier's charisma & realized they were being led to suicide. Kelsier used him & Demoux to turn the tide of opinion by having the two duke it out by Rioting Bilg's emotions and supporting Demoux with steelpushes and ironpulls. Kelsier intended to kill him but Demoux resisted. In WoA, he gets involved in a scuffle between the Mistfallen and the other soldiers, started by Midge (actually accidentally started by Kelsier, as seen in Mistborn: Secret History) who claimed that the Mistborn were holy and chosen by the Survivor. Their general, Demoux had to interfere, punched his general in the face right when Elend joined the scene. According to the law instituted by Elend, he had to execute Bilg, even though Demoux pleaded to only throw the man in solitary. Another point of contention for me, as I mentioned, was Elend became a military dictator. Again, as I said, I understand the stakes and I do love him for his selflessness and willingness to die for his beliefs, which he displayed twice, but he also basically went democracy is for later, now we fight. And he inspired others to fight and die... um, a quality that is praised in real life too, especially in soldiers but it's one of the heroic qualities I'm most uncomfortable with. So, what did you guys feel about the original Mistborn trilogy characters?
  3. Hey, So I was listening to shardcast the other day, (I don't remember which one) and somebody mentioned that Brandon regrets not making any other female characters in TFE, especially in Kelsier's crew. when I first heard this I stopped and tried to think which of the crew members I would make a woman. i decided that i would most like Yeden and Dockson to be women as I always liked them and felt they were underused. I thought that making them women would make them stand out more and perhaps create more interesting dynamics with the rest of the crew. I quickly realized that if Yeden were made a woman, that this would drastically change how I would interpret his character arc. Yeden goes from vocally loathing Kel to beaming from his praise and jealous of his attention to getting himself and a many others killed in a foolish attempt to impress Kel. If Yeden was a woman the subtext would be that Yeden was obviously sexually infatuated with Kelsier and desperate to get Kel to love her back. As an avid fan of the "Kelsier is actually a monster" side of the fandom I really like this interpretation of their relationship. Kel is a manipulative narcissistic who is also a very handsome, charming and charismatic man, the idea that he would use his sexuality to trick someone into dying for him is entirely within character and just the right amount of monstrous. He is even shown consciously using his sexuality to manipulate in the scene with Vin's barber. The genderbending also had an similar affect on Dockson's character. Dockson is Kelsier's best friend. He is incredibly loyal and dedicated to Kelsier. He has a past that he talks about from before he met Kelsier but he never talks about his current life with Vin, or anyone else. Its reasonable to think that Dockson has no life outside Kelsier and their shared work, because Kelsier is his life. I read Dockson as being hopelessly trapped in an unrequited marriage to Kelsier, in an even less healthy reversing of the Kelseir-Maer-Marsh dynamic. I also like that Dockson is self-aware enough that he would be aware of his feelings, Kelsier's very real problems and that Kelsier will never love him back that way. He is simply unwilling or unable to tell Kelsier no. Of course neither Yeden or Dockson have to be women for their arcs to be read this way. I am doing a re-listen to TFE with this perspective in mind and it's holding up really well. Thoughts? Tib
  4. So the popular theory is that kelsier is the sovery right. I personally doubt it. I mean the entire theory hinges on the forearm scars and one single word. Hardly unique or irreplicable . For one , it might have taken quite some while for kelsier to Staple himself to a body , during which time the southern Scadrians would have frozen to death. Also , it doesn't really seem like kelsiers way to keep things so vague that he could be mistaken to be Tlr. I can't think of anything else kelsier would hate to be mistaken as. Also kelsier isn't the type to boast falsefully that he ruled in the north . And creating and leaving the BoM seems just.... crazy. Kelsier no matter how many times he declared himself as crazy was never actually that crazy . I think it was a half crazy mistborn who was obsessed with survivorism or with kelsier to the extent that he scarred his hands to resemble kelsier and like Zane I think he learned hemalurgy by himself maybe with Ruin's aid , except later he realized ruin was playing him and/or had a nervous breakdown or something and dropped out. I don't know how he survived the Inquisitors. Maybe they had thier hands full by then , with vin and the atium. Maybe they already had all the spikes they needed and thought ( with retrospective correctness ) that he wasn't a threat. Later after the catachendre , kelsiers ghost found him , gave him the knowledge of the shards existance and history and tasked him with rescuing the southern Scadrians. Hell kelsier might have led him to scavenge lots of feruchemical spikes from the dead inquisitors. Harmony too was ok with this. Not completely but to rescue the southern Scadrians, I guess he played along. Of course I might be completely wrong and oblivious of thr obvious but can we be 100% sure it is Kelsier.? Do we have a solid WoB with no hedging ?
  5. Do you think the book that Harmony left behind at the end of HoA mentions Kelsier's stint as Preservation? Because that would make doctrinal arguments between Pathists and Survivorists pretty funny. "Yes, we actually also believe he was a god... of a sort.. briefly."
  6. Do we know anything about Spanky? Hoid used a spirit-corpse that he rides in the Cognitive Realm and we know that spanky is not a bastard. Anything else? What is he, why is he able to be used as a raft? just so much there I would like to understand
  7. From the album Cosmeme & Crossmere

    Finally sat down to draw cosmere stuff! Here is a character request meme from twitter and we have a bunch of popular ones here 1st line: Kelsier, Vin, Rashek 2nd line: Shallan, Evil!Dalinar as Odium’s champion, Kaladin 3rd line: Frost, Sazed, Shalash (*Kelsier wink* Thanks for your love <3)
  8. So I keep hearing people say Kelsier is a cognitive shadow. I am mildly familiar with this term; I've heard it in reference to Hoid and Vivenna. But if he isn't totally dead, then what was that conversation with Spook about in HoA? The wiki says that it was Ruin playing as Kelsier, which makes sense because he was so insistent about revenge, but I never actually heard that from a person who's read the books. Can someone give clarity?
  9. In BoM suit punches in a code that allows them access to the room with the fake bands. Apparently the password would have been something kelsier would know. Has Brandon revealed what it is?
  10. I recently re-read Dresden Files, including all Short Stories, Graphic Novels and Novels in chronological order (if somebody needs a list, let me know) and it got me thinking... Could I do the same with Mistborn? Granted, it's not all discrete stories that can "neatly fit btwn novels X and Y," but it seemed possible. So this last week I set out to do just that. Has anybody else tried to do similar? I started with Eleventh Metal (Obviously), then moved on to Mistborn: The Final Empire (TFE) until Kelsier dies. I then attempted to "integrate" the chapters of Mistborn Secret History (MSH) where they take place while reading the rest of the first trilogy. Below is my attempt at codifying at which point in the trilogy I read each chapter/section of MSH. Though, in many spots the MSH chapters would need to be parsed out into scenes to be truly integrated. Thoughts, Ideas, Concerns? PS: Now starting Allow of Law for the remainder of my most-recent Mistborn read through
  11. In Secret History, and alluded to in Era 2, we find that Kelsier held preservation between the death of Leras and the ascension of Vin. He was able to do so because of IRE magical equipment, but he was not able to fully hold it like a living person could have, and so he was much more limited than Vin, just barely able to delay Ruin no matter what he did, while Vin was able, at the cost of her own life, to kill Ati and leave both Preservation and Ruin unheld. Was Kelsier so limited because he no longer a regular living being, but a cognitive shadow, or because he was not grounded in the Physical realm before taking up the shard? Like, if Kelsier had taken up preservation AFTER getting grounded in the physical realm again, could he have fully held it? The Heralds are also incarnate cognitive shadows who were once living humans, but until Oathbringer, every time they died, they reincarnated. When incarnate, could the heralds have taken up a shard fully, or would they have been limited like Kelsier was?
  12. My question really all comes down to what would happen if a being like Kelsier, circa era 2, was stabbed by Vyre's knife? Would the same thing happen that happened to Jezrien? I think the heralds are preserved by Honor's investiture and they seem to have the perk of automatic incarnation after death, and Kelsier, preserved by Preservation had to get himself a body somehow to return to the Physical Realm, but like, would that knife kill him for good, or would it have no effect since he, you know, doesn't reincarnate anyway, but is just preserved as a cognitive shadow? I couldn't find any WOB directly relating to this.
  13. I'm making this thread so I can stop derailing the Era 3 thread. Here's a link if you want to catch up (or post about what you want to see in Era 3). Era 3 Thread Ok, to the subject at hand. Is Kelsier a good guy or a bad guy? I come out on the good guy side. According to WoBs, Kelsier is a psychopath, but if that is true, then he is a badly written character, in my opinion. I can't think of any specific instance of him doing something that would make me think he lacked empathy or remorse. Nothing in the books ever gave me the feeling that he was anything other than a revolutionary that was trying to make the world a better place.
  14. I just wanted to ask why Scadrian metal glows in the cognitive realm to Kelsier to a degree that he perceives metal and souls to be the same thing. When I first read this I presumed that scadrian metal was manifest investiture just like stormlight, which explained allomancy, if not feruchemy and hemalurgy. This apparently is not the case, since metal is not the source of allomancy, but rather the key to tapping into preservation's power when using allomancy. But then why does scadrian metal glow? I don't think we've gotten any suggestions that metal glows in the cognitive realm of other planets. Is Scadrian metal special, or are Scadrians special because they perceive metal as glowing, or is this an attribute of the Scadrian Cognitive realm anyone would perceive? Does Scadrian metal only glow in the cognitive realm if it's actually in the physical realm, but if taken into the cognitive realm physically, resemble normal metal? Whatever the case, this does seem to be the same mechanism by which Ruin is prevented from reading and/or changing anything inscribed in metal. What bearing does Kelsier's encounter with Nazh in Secret History, with his non-glowing metal knife, have on this discussion?
  15. So thinking about it how and when did the people of Scadrial learn about Kelsier ascending? The other ascenders make sense but Kelsier only held the power during the events of Secret History and only for a few days at most. Was this fact actually revealed in Sazed's books he left at the end of Era 1 meaning anyone whose read them knows it by the time of Era 2?
  16. On this week's Worldsingers' episode Trever and Peter discuss Kelsier and some of his many defining characteristics. Part one of our Sanderson Character Study series. Trever and Peter are two big nerds who love Marvel, DC, Board Games, cosplay, Avatar, the Cosmere and everything nerdy. They also both think that mental health is one of the most important aspects of life on this planet, and see Brandon Sanderson's similar love of people and their mental health in all of his characters.
  17. I don't know if people have already talked about this, but I'm gonna talk anyway. I was re-reading Secret History, when I read something strange. I was at the part when Kelsier is spying on the Ire, and he describes one of the leaders as the following: "Wizened, dried up, the woman had puckered lips, a bald scalp, and strange silvery-dark skin. She glowed faintly..." I don't know about you, but that sounds like an Elantrian. I don't know if Secret History is before or after the restoration of Elantris, but still. Later, Kelsier has a vision, "As she said the word, this time Kelsier got a sense of it's meaning in the language of the green plants. It meant "Age," and he had a sudden impression of a strange symbol made from four dots and some lines that curved, like ripples in a river." That sounds like an Aon to me, but what do you guys think?
  18. I was curious how people interpreted the meaning of lerasium's ability in hemalurgy. My interpretation (almost certainly wrong) was that it basically stapled the entirety of one soul on to a new body. (Kelsier's new body maybe?)
  19. Ok, so I was reading Secret History and I realized that Vin had on a hemalurgic spike (her earring), and was technically “broken” throughout the book, so why did she not see Kelsier like Spook did? Is this just a rare plot-hole, or is there actually a reason?
  20. ***Spoilers for the Mistborn series, Words of Radiance, Wax and Wayne series, and Mistborn: Secret History.*** So my friend and I (who host a nerd podcast and talk about Branderson's work about once a month) have talked for a while about this theory: Kelsier is the missing shard. He is the shard Survival/ Immortatlity/ Endlessness or whatever Sanderson is going to call that aspect of god. When Adonalsium was shattered, Survival tore memories of him from the other shards AND FROM HIMSELF, then he hid himself on another invested planet to hide his powers should they manifest. He chose to hide with Preservation and Ruin because he knew they would be in conflict, and that would help hide him. Kelsier's survival is too continual. Life on the streets. Fighting the inquisitor. Literal DEATH at The Lord Ruler's hands (pun pun pun). The Well of Ascension. His final appearance at the end of The Bands of Mourning. PLUS: "There's always another secret." I mean COME ON. Sanderson loves to use the narration trope of "The Unreliable Narrator" (see Writing Excuses episode 13.45) or just look at EVERY TIME HE USED A CHARACTERS THOUGHTS OR WORDS TO CONVINCE YOU OF AN UNTRUTH. MY favorite example is Shallan Davar thinking [paraphrase] "They must have dragged Jasnah's body up onto the deck." I think most of us bought that as truth and were shocked when Jasnah appeared at the end of the book. Anyway, what do you think? is Survival/ immortality a shard? is that shard kelsier? is that Brandon's deepest secret? HIT ME WITH YOU FACTS AND THEORIES.
  21. I started doing some fanart recently, so I thought I share also here Some Vin and Shallan I plan doing a more detailed fanart series some time, maybe even this year, but otherwise that was a pleasant warmup. Also some Overly Dramatic Kelsier (tumblr request) I also recorded painting those pieces, so I attach the youtube videos on a post below If you like my art, you might want to check Facebook / Tumblr / Instagram / Deviantart / Youtube, whichever suits you the most
  22. At the end of Bands of Mourning, we get a glimpse of Kelsier telling some people to "Survive". We know that he now has a spike through one of his eyes, and we know that him and Spook were trying to "...find me a new string." So did the spike bring Kelsier out of the Cognitive Realm, or did they have to find a victim for Kelsier to have a new body?
  23. Hi, so far I’m waiting for Hero of Ages to come in the mail. Read Final empire and Wells, for now I’m on Warbreaker im looking for answers and connections to this ‘cosmere’ universe. It’s mind blowing that they are all slightly connected and I’m intrigued to see the theories and postulations y’all have out there. I’m highly interested in discussing the mistborn trilogy, or what we can until I finish it.
  24. Hi, I tried looking for this theory somewhere but I only saw one half joking mention of it, which I therefore upvoted. Theory: There is a shard of Hope. It had something to do with Kelsier snapping into a mistborn, which is not fully explained by preservation commanding him to survive. I take it Kelsier should have already snapped but hadn't and was made to snap by some external force. We've seen preservation make someone a mistborn, Elend, via feeding him lerasium. We've also seen Kelsier command Spook to survive and Spook not becoming mistborn at that time. It seems like you need both ruin to make the cracks and preservation to rush in with power to make a misting/mistborn in the typical case, else feed lerasium. Kelsier never gives up. And when he distills his message down to one word to get through to Spook, the word is Hope. Also obviously "I am that thing you cannot kill." Hope. Also a good candidate for a shard that is just trying to survive but whose intent isn't strictly speaking survival per se. Hope... Just the kind of thing that you can't kill even if you think you did. OK apologies for the abbreviated defense of theory. Got a bum arm atm. Also apologies if I missed this particular permutation of Kelsier is/will be/take up a shard.
  25. Keep in mind that this is all speculation. Below are some relevant WoB's which I will dive into later 1. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] The Ghostbloods. Are they Kelsier's new crew? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Oh, good question. Do I wanna answer this or not? I'm gonna RAFO this one. Yeah, we're gonna RAFO this one. Billy Todd [PENDING REVIEW] Have there been interactions between Kelsier and the Ghostbloods? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I will RAFO that. 2. ccstat If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose? Brandon Sanderson He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year. source source 3. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, or no. With all of the cosmere books that have been put out, do we have enough information to deduce the Ghostbloods' motives? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Ummm... *laugher* I would say yes, but it's not like you are a fool if you haven't gotten it. Robert Jordan once answered a question like this saying, "Well, the answer should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer." Which I never thought was fair. Like, no, it was not. Szeth, some people guessed it. And some people will guess this. A lot of the foreshadowing in my books, it's this weird thing where, when you do proper foreshadowing, and then people have three years between books, they're gonna figure some things out. Which presents a really interesting challenge to me as a writer, because, like, there are big things that get revealed in Oathbringer, that people who have been steeped in the world for the last seven years... they kinda knew this would happen. We get the beta readers, and they're like, "So? Doesn't everyone know that?" But at the same time, the casual reader, beta readers were like "Holy cow! This is a huge revelation!" And books need to work both for the person who has been really steeped in it, and the person who's reading along that maybe doesn't want to go get all the spoilers from all the fan guessing. So it is this weird balancing act that, as a writer, you have to perform, particularly with the longer books in the longer series, where you want to make sure they're engaging to the hardcore fan, but not overwhelming to the person who maybe hasn't reread the books since the last one came out. And I don't know that I have that balance figured out, but it is something I think about a lot... source Kelsier's motivations post Secret History: After his interactions with Khriss and Nazh in Secret History, Kelsier realises just how little he really knows. Kelsier would see this ignorance as a weakness he must overcome, as to rise to the top he must acquire knowledge. Kelsier's conversation with Spook at the end of Secret History illustrate his quest to pursue knowledge of the cosmere. “Now, don’t be like that,” Kelsier said. “Our work is important. Vital. We’re going to unravel the mysteries of the universe. The cosmere, as it is called.” “It’s a big, big place out there, kid,” Kelsier said. “Bigger than I ever knew. Ignorance almost lost us everything. I’m not going to let that happen again.” He tapped at Spook’s ear. “While dead, I had an opportunity. My mind expanded, and I learned some things. My focus wasn’t on these spikes; I think I could have worked it all out, if it had been. I still learned enough to be dangerous, and the two of us are going to figure the rest out.” If there is one thing we know about Kelsier, it is that he compulsively meddles. He would not be content to swear an oath of non-interference like the 17th shard members. We know from a WoB that the 17th shard and ghostbloods do not work together. Furthermore, Iyatil has South Scadrian ancestry and was a former member of the 17th shard. It is plausible that she converted to the ghostbloods after a little persuasion from the god figure of her ancestors. So the 17th shard does not fit Kelsier, leaving the ghostbloods as the only known worldhopper organisation with a similar agenda. We know that Kelsier always feels the need to operate a crew. This is a constant between pre-Final Empire and post-Final Empire Kelsier, as shown when he treats Preservation/Fuzz as a crew member after determining his goal was to stop ruin and also at the end of Secret History when he recruits Spook. It is highly probable, then, that Kelsier post-Secret History has founded a new crew which is the ghostbloods. So what exactly are the ghostbloods up to? First of all, a minor piece of evidence linking the ghostbloods to Kelsier is the name of the organisation. Ghost= cognitive shadow, Blood= hemallurgy Now, as shown above, Kelsier appears to be on a quest to gather cosmere knowledge. In Mraize's basement we see artifacts from many worlds, including a knife from Threnody (possibly the knife which Nazh gave to Kelsier in Secret History), a vial of white sand, a dye flower from Nalthis (tears of Edgli), possibly Royal Idrian locks and in a later scene we see Mraize with an aviar. This shows that the ghostbloods are collecting investiture related artifacts from numerous shardworlds. The collection of these artifacts would tie into Kelsier's pursuit of cosmeric knowledge. Here's where things get a little crazy. I believe that Sja Anat has known Shallan since she was a child and is responsible for her forming a nahel bond so early in life before everything fell apart. 4. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Um, yes. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Was it <the corrupt...>? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. source 5. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Why don't you have to say the words if you're just bonding a Cryptic? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Every Order's First Oath is the same. Then the Second Oaths for the Cryptics go into truths, but everybody says the First Oath the same regardless of Order. Which should raise the question of... Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Did [Shallan] say it when she was a teeny-weeny, like in the cradle? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] That should raise a question. She wasn't teeny-weeny, but it should raise a question there. source This would tie in with the ghostbloods interest in Sja Anat, as she may be able to grant them nahel bonds in a similar fashion. This would add to their investiture collection. I see the situation as being similar to Hoid collecting investiture from different sources, though the end goals likely differ drastically. 6. Questioner How would - just really generally - the Ghostbloods react if they found or met Hoid? Brandon Sanderson (laughs) They... Some people among them know of him. Questioner So they know he's around. Brandon Sanderson Some of them do, not everybody. But they are aware of his existence. At least in lore, they don't always... Not all of them have connected the King's Wit to this person's lore, does that make sense? So what would they know? They'd probably want to get him and interrogate him. They would want to know what he knows, but he is really slippery and it's hard to get out of him what he knows. source Conclusion: There is a realistic possibility that Kelsier has at least had involvement with the ghostbloods. This could potentially set up conflict between Hoid and Kelsier as they would have similar pursuits and really don't get along very well. We know that Secret History was in the works from as early as 2006 so Brandon clearly felt like he had not finished telling Kelsier's story. Maybe Shallan will finally meet the mysterious Thaidakar with heavily scarred arms.