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  1. This entry is to postulate a theoretical framework with which we can possibly predict the general theme to which the oaths taken by the orders of knights in the following books would be associated. Based on WoB's and conjectures that we can draw from the information we already have available in the books themselves. I would like to begin first by remembering the information that you have provided us with Szeth's points of view, where the Skybreakers explain to him how they have schematized the ideals, which would be: Ideal of Radiance Ideal of Justice Ideal of Dedication Ideal of Crusade Ideal of Law Being the first generic ideal for all orders: “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.” In the second they swear to comply with the law wherever they go, this would be, so to speak, the leitmotif of this order and what differentiates it from the others. Third ideal, they adhere to a specific code, which they will have to follow no matter where they are. The fourth ideal asks you to look for something you consider unfair, and to take action to fix it. And finally in the fifth ideal “they become the law”, being a very abstract ideal that we can all agree with that can give many interpretations. Having already these bases we can proceed to compare these ideals with the next most seen from the reader's point of view, the ideals of the Windrunners. In the second ideal, Windrunners swear to protect, usually those who cannot themselves. In the third ideal, the Windrunners swear to protect in situations that they initially did not expect they would have to protect, either because they hated them in the first instance (Kalladin with the nobles), because they did not believe they deserved it (Teft with himself) or because they did not they wanted to accept that protection was required in those situations (Lopen). And in the last ideal that we have evidence of, the fourth ideal, here they accept that they will not be able to protect everyone. Well, here we can see that we have a connecting thread between the different ideals: In the second ideal, both Windrunners and Skybreakers swear to follow the main idea of their orders (Protect and follow the law respectively). This is confirmed to be the same for all orders (except Lightweavers) since we have Brandon's confirmation with the following WoB's: This being so, I will take the liberty of standardizing these ideals as the “Ideal of the Direction”, in which all those who join the radiant knights swear to follow the hallmark of their order. In the third ideal, the ideal of dedication for the Skybreakers, we see that Windrunners are also asked for dedication when it comes to protecting (Protect who you hate, protect yourself, protect others from you). It is at this point where they realize how far what they want to aspire to really reaches. Although the ideal of dedication seems like a good neutral term for all, I think “Ideal of Commitment” encompasses it quite well. From the fourd ideal something curious arises, they are no longer asked to continue further with the theme of their order, but rather to stop. This may be one of the most counterintuitive things about ideals, but I think we have enough evidence to back it up: Kalladin's own fourth ideal: “I accept that there are people I will not be able to protect.” The record 10-12, where a knight who was in Urithiru wondered why they asked him to say that.ecord 10-12 where a knight occupying Urithiru wondered why he was asked to say that. The general concept of the crusade for the Skybreakers. If you want me to justify this last point. Well, the concept of a crusade is directly against what they preach, it is an act of one's own will in which one seeks to solve things that from a personal point of view (not from the law) are wrong. As circumstantial evidence we have Szeth's own character arc, where he is going from blindly believing in the regulations and designs of others (given his trauma from being Truthless) to fully trusting his own judgment. Therefore we could call this ideal the “Ideal of nuance”, where the radiants learn how far their oaths go and where they should stop. As for the fifth ideal, I think we can very correctly assume that it will also be something abstract. If in the Skybreakers it is about “becoming the Law” in the following orders it may be something similar... But we still need something to finish deciphering both this fifth ideal, as well as the ideals of the other Knights Radiant, and that is to take Taking into account the Divine Attributes that the Heralds represent, ordered according to their associated number would be: Protecting - Leading Just - Confident Brave - Obedient Loving - Healing Learned - Giving Creative - Honest Wise - Careful Resolute - Builder Dependable - Resourceful Pious - Guiding As we can see in the following WoB [ref] the Divine Attributes do have a certain relationship with the ideals pronounced by the radiants. This can be seen in the case of the Skybreakers, where their second and third ideals seem to be linked to Nale's primary Divine Attribute [Just] and the fourth together with the fifth reference the secondary Divine Attribute [Confident]. The pattern seems to repeat itself with the Windrunners, where their second and third ideals seem to be tied to the main Divine Attribute of Jezrien [Protecting] and their fourth ideal may be the entry window for their ideals to be associated with the Divine Attribute of [Leading]. Thus giving us that most likely the fifth ideal of a Windrunner is “Being the Honor” instead of being something similar to “Being the Protection”. I think that a good generic name of being the case is "ideal of incarnation." Having sat down the bases with which to speculate, the pattern "direction-commitment-nuance-encarnación" and the divine attributes. We can move on to the following orders. Bondsmiths Like the other orders, we have confirmed their second ideal, I will unite them, being the oath given by Dalinar “I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together. ” Without extending much here we see the theme of the Bondsmiths, unite, whether groups of people with their peers or apparently in the case of Navani with other aware entities. In the third ideal we have the commitment to be adequate for the role they are about to represent. “I will take responsibility for what I have done, if I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. " Being the central part of this oath to be a better person [ref]. We begin with the field of speculation with the Fourd ideal. As established, this ideal is the point that marks the end of the obligations of the radiant in regards to the address that the order have. So this means that for this ideal they have to accept to stop joining? Well, not exactly, if we look at the previous 2 Example what they asked for is to understand the circumstances where their previous ideals cease to be beneficial. Here we can extrapolate a little from the Dalinar character arch, in which little by little he has been learning how to forge ties between people and to part with his war part (this with a little less results). But what is the problem of dalinating now and who must overcome yourself? Well, we have this hoid appointment: Dalinar little by little, has become very good forging links, but not departing from them when building them. Dalinar has to create bridges, not him literally being the bridge. That is why I decided to name this the "ideal of faith" for the Bondsmiths; this is where they realize that they do not have to be supervising and managing the relationships they have forged; it is faith in these relationships. As for the fifth ideal, my proposal is called "ideal of the ambassador", since as we established in the previous point, for a bond to be effective, Dalinar should not be part of it after it has been forged, therefore something more appropriate would be for him to personify the role of ambassador. Someone who finds commonalities in various characteristics and uses them to make relationships smoother. Stonewards From now on I will stop mentioning the second ideals unless they are relevant to explain a later one, since the #SayTheWords videos are much better on the topic. As for the third ideal, something curious arises with this order. Sanderson canonized the following ideal years ago, but did not mention which order it belonged to: "I will stand when others fall."[Ref] Knowing what we know today, it is clear that it is an ideal of Stoneward's, and under this scheme it fits as his third ideal since he finishes explaining what is expected of them when they are where they are needed. In the fourd ideal would find an obvious symmetry with the Windrunners, if for them it is accepting that they cannot protect everyone, in the case of the Stonewards it would be accepting that they cannot be in all the places where they are needed. Continuing with the relationship of the Divine Attributes with the ideals, we could argue that one of the variations of this ideal could be something like: "I accept that I will not always be able to be where I am needed, so I will prepare others to be there in my absence.”" Finally, we don't know the Stonewards enough to infer their fifth Ideal, but if we were to bet on one, it would be something like the “ideal of the warrior." Willshapers The third ideal of the Willshapers should deepen their search for the freedom of others, perhaps in this case, as in the case of the Windrunners, it is the search for freedom even for those who at first did not believe it was necessary or Due to their specific situation they would not want to release. I decided to call it “ideal of equanimity.” Your fourth ideal should be a limitation for this call to liberate, and since the second associated Divine Attribute is [Builder], the idea arises that this ideal is the reflection of a phrase well known in our real world: “Your freedom ends.” where someone else’s begins.” In this, the Willshaper understands that as much as freedom is an important value and a noble objective, there are times when it is deserved that a person be deprived of it, if he or she acts against the freedom of another. We could say that this is the “ideal of society.” Regarding your fifth ideal, seeing how it develops in the previous 3, perhaps it is a call to be a guide for others. The one who ensures the correct development of society and shows a proposal of how it could be following the values of freedom, but who still has his feet on the ground rocks, and knows that certain limitations must be placed so that everyone has access to said freedom. The “ideal of guidance.” Elsecallers With the Elsecallers it seems that we have a situation somewhat similar to that of the Skybreakers, although in their second Ideal they seem to generically swear to seek to reach their potential, in the third from what we see in their video it seems that they select a specific topic to which dedicate themselves, this mechanic may be influenced by the time limitation that any conventional living being has (remembering that this invested art is designed for humans in principle) and the Divine Attribute of [Sage] that forces them to focus on something to achieve mastery in the same. The “ideal of specialization”. Continuing with his fourth ideal, precisely with this order his secondary Divine Attribute [Careful] perfectly aligns with the need to place a limit. I think it is not necessary to explain much more about this ideal. Note: Before taking into account the Divine Attributes for this scheme, I wanted to give this ideal the name “ideal of collaboration” since the Elsecallers are most likely the order that cannot have squires [ref] and since Their nature would tend to try to do everything on their own, I thought they would need to learn to work as a team and learn to accept help from others. Their fifth ideal would also be interesting, since being so differentiated from each other, it is most likely that upon reaching the fifth ideal they will already embody the ideal version associated with the profession or pursuit they chose. Lightweavers TRUTHS Truthwatchers The third ideal of Truthwatchers most likely has to do with accepting uncomfortable truths for themselves. This is consistent with the current narrative as this order is prone to attracting religious devotees. In the current situation of the Vorin kingdoms there is a lot of play, since they will probably end up publishing all the changes that the Hierocracy made to their religion and the existence (and possible acceptance) of Cultivation would once again enter the public domain. As for its fourth ideal, I have two proposals since I have not been able to fit the second Divine Attribute [Giving] with the pattern that the fourth ideal has followed: Ideal of the Teacher?: Basically it would be an oath to teach these truths to people. I highly doubt that this is the case since in the #SayTheWorlds video they mention something that suggests that they already do this as a basic thing. Ideal of Secretism?: In this version they would accept that there are truths that cannot be disclosed. It doesn't seem like a good direction to me, but in their favor they have the data that has been collected from the board game, and given that it has been approved by Brandon... I name the fifth ideal as the “ideal of erudition” since the theme of this order is closely related to this (much more than the Elsecallers as we already saw). Edgedancers We have already seen the second and third ideals of the Edgedancers firsthand thanks to Lift, remembering those who have been forgotten and listening to those who are not heard is very much in tune with the first Divine Attribute of [Loving] and the third It is a greater commitment than the second. Taking into account the pattern established in the ideals and the Divine Attribute [Healing], I sense that his fourth ideal revolves around forgetting. If we take into account Lift's character arc, it may be that for her it is making the decision to forget the search for her mother (just speculation), forgetting things that do us more harm than good and impede the internal development of the radiant, something like that like Dalinar and his situation with the memory of Evi. As for the fifth ideal, I chose to call it the “ideal of the legend” because what better way to personify a memory than to be a legend. I have some other reasons to think this is the case, but they are heavily influenced by personal opinions. Dustbringers Finally, the Dustbringers... to be honest, this is the order that was most difficult for me to fit into this scheme, their second ideal calls them towards the search for self-mastery and the truth is I can't think of how to go deeper into that for their third ideal, Added that the Divine Attribute that should play for these first 2 is [Brave]. As for the fourth and fifth, it becomes more complicated since unlike the third, they fit together too well. Since the fourth tends to be a counterpart to the second and that the second Divine Attribute for this order is [Obedient], could they give up their autonomy in this ideal? Is it something like the reverse version of the Skybreakers situation? where the Skybreakers follow a code of conduct (Law) and as they progress they gain confidence in themselves and their own points of view. Do the Dustbringers begin by acquiring mastery over themselves and then handing it over to someone else? The truth is, even if my scheme turns out to be close to reality, I think that in this last order it surely fails since it is the one about which we have the least information. It's worth mentioning that Sanderson has been especially cryptic about them, since we have even more information on the Truthwatchers (Not for nothing in his corresponding video, Senne Khald mentions that he's never actually met any). Summary Well as final thoughts, this has been a very entertaining exercise in theories. The truth is, I think we don't need much to have the official versions since the board game will be published soon. Without anything else to add, I look forward to your comments Wow, I didn't expect it to actually be published in page format.
  2. Apologies if anyone has already posted this. I have an idea for what Radiants get for their 5th Ideal. 3rd Ideal they get their Shardblade, 4th they get Shardplate, 5th? They get a fabrial. Specifically, this is where all Soulcasters come from along with the Regrowth Fabrial that Nale uses to resurrect Szeth. The 5th Ideal Radiants gain the ability to lend not just their Spren as a sword, not just their armor, but their very powers to someone else, and this is why non-Radiant Soulcasters become Savants in a long-term fatal manner. Navani still doesn't know how Soulcasters work, other than they're spren? Answer, it's the exact same mechanism that drove her crazy about Shardblades and Shardplate. WoBs: Thoughts?
  3. KALADIN’S 5TH IDEAL Ok so i have a theory about Kaladin’s 5th ideal and wanted to know what you guys thought. Sorry if its a drop long Just to go through all his ideals let me post them- 1- “Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.” 2- “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves” 3- “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” 4- “I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!” Now my train of thought is this: the 1st ideal is a commitment to the lifestyle he’s going to live- a life of putting others before him and being there to help others, and a life of giving up from himself and working on himself. The 2nd ideal is how he plans on doing this and that is that he’s going to protect others, specifically others who cant protect themselves- thereby dedicating his life to being there for others who need him most. the 3rd ideal is a continuation of this- by committing to be there for others, one of the core points of protecting someone else is that you are willing to put the other person before you! Imagine someone wants to punch your friend and you take the hit for them- youre protecting them by putting them before you and taking the heat for them! Protection is not just about when you have the ability to protect them AND protect yourself, it’s about protecting them FULLY! Even at the cost of yourself sometimes! If you are only willing to protect those you like- that’s not called servicing the world- it’s called servicing yourself!! It’s easy to protect something or someone you like, because you’re doing it for yourself also- to keep them around! It’s when you dont like someone and you still protect them, thats when it becomes true service to protecting those who cant protect themselves! so the 3rd ideal is not so much a new concept as much as it is a continuation and reinforcing the 1st two ideals which is a commitment to SERVE AND TO PROTECT!! And in this vain the 4th ideal continues- if the only way you’re willing to protect someone is if they actually make it through then it means you’re putting yourself before them! Cause you’re only willing to protect if you get the satisfaction of saving them, but if you wouldn’t have that satisfaction you aren’t willing to protect. Thats called putting yourself 1st- cause if you truly cared just about protecting the other person it wouldn’t matter if that person ends up dying- if you can make his death easier for him then you will do what you can to protect him from that pain and make it easier for him. That’s what Kaladin’s brother was trying to explain to him- that just because they didnt survive doesn’t mean that Kaladin’s efforts were wasted- they still accomplished a lot- all those happy moments were worth living for even if they don’t last! Because just like you can protect a person fully- so too you can protect them a little- by protecting their emotions or happiness and things like that. So now, here we are at the 5th ideal… i don't think its going to be Kaladin sacrificing himself to save the world because 1stly its waaaayyy too cliche lol but mainly i think its because i feel like thats the easy way out and being a radiant is always about dong the harder thing. It’s so much easier to give up your life to save the world and not have to live through all the pain that is around because you didnt sacrifice yourself. It’s those hero moments where we have a chance to step up to the plate and do something grand- moments like that are easy to do and most people will do it- cause its grandeur, its honor, and its glory! It’s the moments which aren’t what we call a “hero moment” that it takes a real man to step up to the plate and do it! I feel like the 5th ideal will have something to with Kaladin being forced to put himself before others SO THAT he can still be alive to protect other people afterwards! The 5th ideal will be that he SHOULD NOT sacrifice himself, rather, stay alive so that he can be around to help everyone afterwards- even though doing so will make him hate himself!! Because he knows that he put himself 1st before others- that is the 5th ideal- to understand that sometimes he needs to put himself first SO THAT HE CAN THEREFOR afterwards be able to put others before him!!! I’m sorry if I’m not being so clear here but to put it simply- 1st he commits to working on himself and helping the world at large 2nd he commits to help by protecting others 3rd he commits to protecting even when he doesn’t want to- because he committed to put others before himself 4th he commits to protecting even when he wont get the “hero satisfaction” of saving them- because protecting others is about doing for them not for yourself 5th he commits to the ultimate putting others before himself which is the knowledge that sometimes the only way to put others before yourself is by doing something which by nature is putting yourself before them! I tried my best to explain my thoughts sorry if it’s not the clearest… what do you guys think?! All thoughts and comments greatly appreciated!!!!
  4. I think I figured out the Fourth and Fifth Ideals of the Edgedancers. Given that the second is remembering the forgotten and the third is listening to the ignored, it stands to reason that the oaths will continue to escalate. I figure that the Fourth Ideal would be something along the lines of caring for the neglected. And I also feel like the Fifth Ideal would continue to escalate. My theory is that it will develop into speaking for the silent. I am less confident on the Fifth Ideal than I am on the Fourth. What are your thoughts?
  5. When Dalinar speaks to Kaladin as Tien, right before the 4th Ideal, it reminded me of his “I am Unity” scene in OB. His message to Kaladin is being there in the moment for others, not just thinking about the end goal. It’s a reiteration of the First Ideal, journey before destination. Dalinar likes to focus on that one, similar to OB, where he says it can’t be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.
  6. My main theory that changes how we count Shallan's Ideals is that Shallan said an Ideal as she killed Testament. It would explain which swords she's using in WoR and how they are working. 1st Ideal— Same for all Orders. She said this early in her childhood. 2nd Ideal— She said this first to Testament. It was probably simple and childlike, given her age, maybe “I love you” or “you are my (only) true friend” being all alone in the Davar House. My theory: Lightweavers earn their Blade at 2nd Ideal, not 3rd. We've seen Windrunners and Edgedancers earn blade at 3rd Ideal (WoR for Kaladin, Edgedancer for Lift). Some don't even bond a spren until later Ideals (like Skybreakers in OB). Bottom line, Orders progress at different rates and makes sense from a Cultivation-based viewpoint (she would like variety in progression). 2nd Ideal— "I killed my father" is said to Pattern. This means that he's now a blade by the end of TWoK but can’t manifest yet because he’s weak in thinking and complex ideas. He can't even manifest physically until Shallan draws his pattern in the beginning of WoR. This means that Tyn is killed by Testament. In the moment before killing Tyn, Shallan notes: Notice: "But for her, it didn't have to be ten". I think "her" refers to Testament, not Shallan. Testament doesn't need to be summoned in 10 heartbeats because she is still partially bonded to Shallan. We also know deadeyes can be summoned in less, such as with Maya and Adolin (I think they got down to 7 beats). Right at this point Shallan begins to create Veil to hide the past about Testament (confirmed in RoW). The moment of her using Testament after all these years is what pushes her to make Veil, since that action of using Testament is what starts to bring the memories back. 3rd Ideal— My theory: "I hate you" is said to Testament. Yep, Shallan broke their bond as she swore the 3rd Ideal. Testament feels shame for letting Shallan kill her mother and accepts these words as truth, that she knows Shallan truly hates herself and Testament. It would be a great twist, since we wouldn't think that you can swear an Ideal while killing your spren. But Testament is the only one who needs to accept the Truths, and she does if moved to shame. 3rd Ideal— "I killed my mother" is said to Pattern. This was said after the Oathgate transfer, so Pattern had to have been a sword at that point already. This fits with the idea that Cryptics can be a blade by the 2nd Ideal. There is not nearly enough Investiture in Testament for her to do that, being a deadeyes; she can sometimes help soulcast and be a Blade, but that’s it. She moves slower than Pattern does in the Cognitive Realm, so Shallan running to the Oathgate and activating it at end of WoR might've happened too fast for Testament to keep up with her. We also know deadeyes move slowly and keep their distance from their Shardbearers (Maya walking a ways behind the group in OB). Shallan has no need to summon her afterwards, now that Pattern manifested as a Blade already in the chasms and again for the Oathgate, AND Shallan acknowledging how Pattern is different than other Blades, so she finds no need to summon Testament again. The transfer occurs and Testament is left on the platform in the Cognitive Realm, the mysterious island in the east where she was found by the shopkeeper (RoW) and held with her after that. 4th Ideal— "I'm terrified" is said to Testament in TWoK. These truths to her are still pretty simplistic because Testament is from a childhood bond. This grants some soulcasting for Shallan but it's still very weak. By the end of WoR, there's a that WoB says Shallan is on 4th Ideal. He's referring to this one, not any Ideals with Pattern. 4th Ideal-"I killed [my spren]" was said to herself in Kalak's study. Pattern has not yet accepted this (or maybe did offscreen but that seems weak), because he didn’t hear the truth. Remember, she forbid Pattern from following her to Kalak's house. 5th Ideal— This will be a one-and-done truth, a bridge between her bonds with the two spren. It will heal Testament and propel her to 5th ideal for both bonds. Testament’s Ideals revolve around shallan as a child while Pattern’s exposes her childhood, so 5th Ideal is a combination that satisfies both of her spren, and they both accept it. This makes it plausible for Shallan to sweat a single Ideal in the next book. Thoughts?
  7. Hi guys, have been away from the SA for a while and recently wanted to put out ideas I've only been revisiting. Feel free to comment on what you like, I've only put so much depth into this but I felt I wouldn't get it out in time so here goes: I believe that we know one of the Dustbringer ideals already. Some people are familiar with the following quote provided by Sando: "I will stand when others fall" I believe this is a Dustbringer ideal and I would back up this claim with the third ideal Dalinar spoke about: “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. ” The wording fall comes up in both of these oaths. For context, it has been theorised by some that the oaths Dalinar are speaking are closely tied to the "Honor Arc" of the Herald wheel. Quick Side Note: As for the second ideal, I believe it is based on the Windrunner order. “I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together. ” Reason: The wording 'unite' makes me think of adhesion. Not very in-depth, more of a hot take. The best way to protect people is to put them with other people so that their strengths can cover their weaknesses. And the best way for a group of people to protect each other is to appoint someone that is the most capable of leadership. It's also no secret that the next book that will come out at the time of this post is about the Skybreakers so I'm trying to do a flimsy process of elimination. That's when he will swear the fourth. Side Note over: Reasons why I think the quote/ideal is related to the Releasers. Most people attribute it to a Willshaper or Stoneward because of the wording and how the orders are Resolute and Dependable. I believe that bravery is actually the most associated with it. "I will stand when others fall", you think of that in a physical sense but you need to consider the figurative aspect. Standing up for others or especially yourself is courageous, it makes you brave. People will continue to fall and fall and cowardly avoid the difficulties they face but someone who stands in the name of adversity is the ideal of bravery. Responsibility- The word responsibility is used in Dalinar's third ideal and we know since RoW that Dustbringers are themed towards Responsibility - SN: A fire-based spren made an appearance in the same book of the reveal if that counts for anything. Risk takers - I believe that since the order is filled with people who are strong-willed and like to crack things open to see how they work. That along with the self-control theme means that they would deal with a lot of risk management. I actually looked up a bit of engineering risk management and it's a very interesting field I won't dare try to butcher. The point is, with the great amount of power they wield, they will inevitably cause more damage than they may have intended. Learning from your mistakes is a great way to mitigate said risks. 1. Dustbringer Ideals 2nd Ideal of Bravery - "I will stand when others fall in the face of danger" 3rd Ideal of Accountability? - "I will take responsibility for what I have done", "I will make own up to my mistakes". 4th Ideal of Service ?" - "I will stand by " " no matter the direness. 5th Ideal of the Guardian - "I am Self Control...?" 2nd Ideal - The radiant will usually start out as someone who will conquer their fear, I like to imagine those in this order make have caused some irrevocable or deep damage against something or someone and they want to make amends. They are risk-takers and I also believe they become initiates like the WRs and SBs as this is arguably the most dangerous order in the arc and the entire circle save the Bondsmiths. Therefore I don't think it would be a stretch to find out that they get their shard blades here. My reasoning for this: I believe they would honestly classify a shard blade as less dangerous than their surges. We know that their orders gets their surges later than most. It could be a test to see how they use their shard blade and if they use it to do more damage than is necessary. 3rd Ideal - I believe this is where the person must answer for a past misstep or mistake they've taken recently. They will need to come to terms with answering for their mistake. I think maybe carrying out a sentence or repairing something the best they can. We also know that the Division surge has been awarded here from knowledge of Malata and if we were to use her as an example, precision and staying within limits have been achieved if not mostly achieved. 4th ideal - I notice that the orders of the "Honor Arc - Windrunner, Skybreaker, Dustbringer" are hierarchical due to them dealing with power, both physical and political. Here they receive Abrasion which means they get access to explosives and pyrotechnics now. They also get their plate here most likely as well but I'll talk more about that a bit later. They are in positions with a lot of power so that means they have to dedicate themselves to something other or run the risk of using them for selfish destructive reasons. The scale has now tilted in favor of obedience than bravery. 5th ideal - They are in complete control of all their surges and themselves. Don't have much to go on for this. Anyways, you guys get the point I'm trying to make More Theories: Dustbringer Plate Uses: Propel themselves with their palms forward for increased speed They could use the fingers on their gauntlets like cutting tools? Self-Explosion...? Duties: I believe that 'generally' radiants followed their patron's role and Chana was known as the guardians. They dealt with threats to people's safety in what way they could: Battlefield - Chana was known for being quick so it's no surprise they could glide across the battlefield as mobile or stationary artillery Settlement Defenses - They could easily fire rays of heat from atop fortifications Domestic disaster - They could act as emergency services in the case of things like a collapsed building. Chana is also well-known for Here is also a pretty good representation of what I think the surges would look like: I might add more in the future but for now, this is as much as I can scrunge up for now. Thanks for being patient enough to entertain my ramblings and please add what you think might be more logical or if I didn't go into something in-depth enough. Edit: Another interpretation of "I shall stand where others fall" is that those who are falling are the victims of some mishap or crime and the Dustbringer is standing for them or by them in some way.
  8. Does anyone else ever think about the Radiant Ideals when you're trying to decide what is right and wrong in real life? I sometimes wish Brandon would tell the rest of the ideals not out of curiosity about the books but because I genuinely wish I had some more guidance in life. I wish I knew which order of Knight Radiants Brandon would place himself in. I wish I knew what philosophy Brandon really believes.
  9. Everyone’s trying to figure out the Fifth Ideals for our main characters, but we’re flying blind until we see a couple in the books. We already know 2 (or 3 if you count Lightweavers) of the Fourth Ideals, so we have a frame of understanding there. For the Windrunners it holds them back from being overprotective, and the Skybreaker’s Crusade is, I think, about the complex reality of enforcing/changing the law and the dangers of being personally involved. Even Shallan’s Ideal was her greatest crime/mistake. If we assume the Fourth Ideal usually acts as a check on the shortcomings/worst tendencies of the Order, I wanted to hear peoples thoughts for the ones we haven’t seen yet. To get it started; I reckon the problem with the Elsecaller’s is that they’d be too self-centred and individualistic, so their Ideal would be to help others, possible to help them achieve their own potentials. Another thought is if the Stonewards are meant to be stoic and helpful, their Fourth would be about taking care of themselves. You can’t be there for someone if you’re dead.
  10. This is a simple observation. Despite Skybreakers being known to follow all laws, and Brandon even saying that the generic Second Oath is "I swear to follow the law", Szeth never swore to follow the law. His second oath was "I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal". This is not explicitly an oath to follow any law, and considering Szeth being willing to take advantage of technicalities of phrasing (like with the dye-throwing contest), he can get away with breaking laws if he thinks they are unjust and gets his highspren to agree. His Third Ideal is also not to follow exactly the laws of the land (as many Skybreakers do) but rather to follow Dalinar, which still does not explicitly restrict him to legal actions.
  11. Basically what the title says. RoW spoilers. Unless I'm missing something, Shallan's 3rd Ideal was acknowledging that she killed her father - then she used Pattern as a Blade in WoR. Her 4th comes at the end of WoR, the death of her mother, and Radiant (who seems Shallan's way of bypassing the 4th Truth) has Plate in the battle of Thaylen Field. Then the truth about Testament would be her 5th. But there are still things for her to overcome. Even if Radiant is a mask to hide from the 4th Truth (and only merging her back would give Shallan full access to the Plate), there is the question of her family's relation with the Ghostbloods and how she bonded Testament in the first place. It seems big enough to be a Truth too. It's been hinted at that Shallan believes she can find out the truth herself, without Mraize revealing it, if only she can face her past. So, do you think it's possible that Lightweavers say as many Truths as it takes? Is there maybe some WoB on it?
  12. Ok so I believe the 5th windrunner ideal is something along the lines of “I will kill to protect” why do I think this, well the sky breakers progress toward different levels of the law snd personally I believe Shallan and all light weavers but especially her are progressing toward seeing themselves for how they are, and her final ideal will probably be “I am shallan” or some variation of that so what is the windrunner ideal progression is so far 2. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves 3. I will protect even those I hate These seem to pretty much encompass everyone you could protect. do that brings us to 4 This is an exception that makes you more effective at your job, it allows you to move on/ keep moving now additionally many of the main characters are almost the ideal(sorry not sorry) candidates for each order and so I think it’s probably a good idea to assume for speculation their arcs match up with the ideals and I think the biggest point in his arc kaladin has left is moash after rythm of war I don’t think moash is turning away from odium and based on the trend of the 4th ideal being a exception that makes you more effective at protecting, and kaladins biggest major plot point that has only been kinda resolved is that he wants to protect too many people, a big part of that is resolved now that he doesn’t have to constantly protect bridge four and many others but there are so many like the parshendi he still feels the need to protect, and this is paralyzing him This follows the trajectory of the oaths i think and I believe he will swear the 5th ideal before or after killing moash, why do I believe this, because kaladin has to kill someone he doesn’t hate for no reason other then to protect others and moash fits that description since kaladin still does not want to kill him but he is a threat to so many people and now may want vengeance.
  13. So, I was reading through some sections of Rhythm of War and I must say the swearing of the 4th ideal was a beautiful scene. However, I am left with a question regarding the ideals of the order of windrunners. The first ideal of the order seems fairly straightforward (and as of now I have not seen any variation), in turn the 4th seems to be acceptance and forgiveness of one's failings. However, the third ideal to me seems a touch elusive given the amount of variation we have seen. For context or a refresher I will put some quotes from the coppermind below.
  14. Hello, Occasional lurker, first time poster. I've just had an epiphany on Kaladin's 4th ideal. I think the consensus for the fourth ideal is that is something along the lines of "I will protect those that I can but I accept that I cannot save everyone." I think Kaladins new role as a surgeon will lead to him swearing the 4th ideal. He will have a patient or patients that he cannot save. He will come to this realisation and ultimately swear the 4th ideal (maybe during the assault on Urithru). Furthermore this will unburden him and he will be able to return to battle and have a decisive role in the defense of Urithru. Sorry If someone had this idea before but I did not see it,
  15. There's been a lot of speculation about the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners, but less so about the fourth Edgedancer Ideal. I'm speculating that the Fourth Ideal of the Edgedancers is something along the line of "I will speak for those who have been silenced". I think this makes a logical progression with the other Edgedancer ideals we've seen. Their Second Ideal is to remember, which is a very passive act (you just have to refrain from forgetting what you already know). The Third Ideal advances from remembering to listening, so now you not only cannot forget the little people but you need to actively be willing to open yourself to their concerns and problems. And then the Fourth Ideal goes from listening to speaking, requiring that the Edgedancer not only be aware of those who others overlook but actively do something to help them. Thoughts?
  16. Hello I am just wondering what all of you think the fourth ideal for the windrunners will be. Kaladin was so close to saying the fourth ideal and I am wondering what it could be. Do you have any ideas?
  17. Hello, Moses here. I would like to share you a theory that I created myself. I have already explained it in the Discord, everyone who saw it liked it and Brandon have said that my theorizing is sound, so I'm very proud of it. Let's get started: We know for some WoBs that the Truthwatchers are worried about knowledge and helping people with it (I tried to link the wob but I can't since I'm a new member). And, in the Radiants Quiz that was recently released, the new information says that they are worried about the bad use of the knowledge and the leaders trying to deceive the people they lead. So, I think that this Order have some things in common with the Windrunners and the Edgedancers, since all of them are more focused on helping the common people than the elite. Protecting those who can not protect themselves and remembering those who had been forgotten, both of their Second Ideals refers to the common people, to those who the leaders do not really care about. Considering all of this and following the example of Windrunners and Edgedancers Second Ideals, focused on the common people, I wrote a theoric PURE Second Ideal for the Truthwatchers. When I say pure, I mean that the spren is not corrupted like Renarin's one. This is it: "I will seek truth, to prevent others from being deceived." What do you think, guys? I hope you like it ^^
  18. I've been thinking a lot lately about what one might get at the Fifth Ideal. I am drawn to an excerpt from the following epigraph from Words of Radiance: "...for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given." Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9. So the ability for spren to manifest in the Physical Realm grows stronger the more oaths that are given. I suspect this is why after the Third Ideal, spren can become Shardblades/spears/forks. Another epigraph mentions achieving the Fourth Ideal in association with "earning my armor," and there is obviously some mystery still around that. But what of the Fifth Ideal? If the Third is some sort of weapon, and assuming the Fourth is some armor, then what could the Fifth be? I welcome theories. The only theory I have is that the Fifth Ideal could be a Dawnshard (...whatever that is). It would make sense, then, with how Surges and Dawnshards are related with the destruction of... you know. Just an idea, if you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Also if I'm blatantly on the wrong track with any of this here, also please share.
  19. I was perusing the Arcanum when I came across a WoB that came with a potential option for the 4th Ideal of the Windrunners. The one suggested is, ""I will forgive myself for those I've failed to protect". Personally, I believe the fourth Ideal may be more along the lines of: I recognize that I must kill to protect OR I will protect the masses by stopping the few. In essence my idea is that Kaladin and all Windrunners will have to recognize that conflict will occur and that the average person (Singer or Human) can be caught in the struggle for power between greater forces than themselves. Therefore, to protect as many as they can Windrunners will have to kill or disable the greater forces of evil, and as a result their underlings. I may be completely incorrect. Please let me know your thoughts.
  20. So, by far the most thorough vetting of who should get access to phenomenal cosmic power is to be found in the system of Surgebinding, those who became the Order of the Knights Radiant. We know that Honor created the Honorblades and gave them to his Heralds. We know that Ishar had a major hand in the creation of the Oathpact, which is why he is called the Binder of Gods. We know that he "thrust organization upon [surgebinder]" when he learned of their access to the Surges. He hoped that the Knights Radiant would help preserve humanity and its knowledge during the Desolations, and help rebuild civilization after the Decisions. He became the patron Herald of the Order of Bondsmiths. We know that spren recreated the powers granted by the Honorblades. Honor had no hand in this and was surprised. So... Who created the Ideals? We know that wielding Honorblades does not seem to require any oaths as we see with Szeth. So it's not inherent to the system of Investiture itself. So did the spren create the basis of the Ideals of the Knights they were to bond? Did Ishar craft the binding oaths so that the Surgebinders were generally chosen based on personal merit instead of happenstance and had to act within a structure? Did Honor craft the Ideals of the Knights Radiant? And if he did, Cultivation probably had a hand in it too... The themes of bonding, swearing oaths, personal growth meshes so well with their Intent Did the first Bondsmiths create the Ideals? Do we have any mentions or hints in the books? Any WoBs?
  21. I just finished Oathbringer again, and after reading the part where Teft swears the Second Ideal, I'm a little confused. He says "I will protect those I hate, even if the one I hate most is myself." That's obviously different from Kaladin's Second Ideal, so I was wondering if the Ideals change person by person, not just in the Lightweavers. (sorry if that was unclear.)
  22. Me and my friends were recently talking about the Knights Radiant ideals and started speculating on how the oaths are sworn, specifically Windrunners. When Kaladin is progressing in oaths he’s actively in positions to protect people and face these ideals. What about a person who say is a house servant and starts to bond an Honorspren and isn’t always in life or death situations trying to save people? Do they just passively start to understand the words and naturally say them or do they just stay stagnant and not progress?
  23. So for a while now I’ve been thinking about this subject, and the other day I had made a post in the Stormlight Facebook group addressing it, and it ended up being a pretty big hit there, with reactions ranging from people loving it, to thinking it’s interesting but likely misguided. So I wanted to lay this out here as well and get some more feedback on it. So ever since I listened to Stormlight Archive the second time, with the benefit of hindsight from my first listen-through, I began to wonder whether there might be potentially more to Lirin (Kaladin’s father) than meets the eye. But at first I couldn’t quite place what it was about him that seemed off about him to me, but recently, it hit me. I realized that literally every single one of Kaladin’s ideals thus far, including what his fourth one is most likely to be, namely accepting that you can’t save everyone and to not allow your failures to prevent you from doing what you can, are things that Lirin has explicitly tried to instil in Kaladin and also operates by himself. In short, Lirin almost seems to me to be a Windrunner without a Spren. The first ideal is really too broad to find anything specific, but the second and third are very explicit in that he dedicates his life to helping people whose lives are in danger, he very explicitly was put into a situation in which Roshone, a man he had every reason to despise and allow to die, had his life entirely in Lirin’s hands, and Lirin chose to do what he knew was the right thing and save his life, which is the third ideal of the Windrunners. And he also has told Kaladin on more than one occasion that he no matter how hard he tries, he can’t save everyone, and that he needs to come to terms with that inevitability, which is most likely at the very least related to the fourth Windrunner ideal. So again I say, Lirin seems to be very Windrunner-y in his philosophy, with the only real difference being the way in which he chooses to protect people, namely as a surgeon rather than a soldier. Now I don’t believe for a second that Brandon wrote his character this way accidentally; the parallels are just to explicit for that. But the question is: what does it mean? And could it possibly be hinting at something? Now, before I go any further, I just want to freely admit that I have very little confidence that this theory is correct, as there are many other explanations for this that are much simpler, but I still think it’s at least worth laying out. So, here’s my admittedly unlikely theory: what if Lirin is a former Windrunner? Specifically a Windrunner from the time of the Recreance? Now, like I said, I realize how unlikely this probably is, but I don’t think it’s completely out of the question. After the Recreance, I think it’s entirely possible that some of the disgraced Radiants may have chosen to go into exile and leave Roshar, maybe becoming worldhoppers. And we know that worldhoppers often gain a greatly extended lifespan by as yet unknown means. And the one piece of evidence I have for this is how thickly Lirin lays on the whole ‘violence is always bad; nothing good can ever come of it!’ spiel. The way he speaks of that, and his conviction, seems to me to bespeak some deep familiarity with war and conflict. And the Radiants at the time of the Recreance pretty much got the ultimate example of this by their unwitting lobotomization and subsequent enslavement of the Singer species. With the Windrunners probably being even more deeply disturbed than many other orders by virtue of how much their order was all about protecting people and doing the right thing; I happen to be in the camp of fans who suspect that the horror of realizing what they had done to the Singers probably caused many of them to consider their oaths broken. And if Lirin was one of them, I can easily imagine his guilt driving him to be a hard pacifist, which he clearly is, and changing his method of protecting people from the role of a soldier to the role of a healer. And the other somewhat intriguing thing is that Lirin had a very interesting reaction to seeing Kaladin use his Windrunner powers, namely to look horrified and dismayed, maybe because he knew first hand what those powers could potentially cause and was horrified that his son now possessed them? Again, clearly there are many other possible explanations for this, and I freely admit that even I think that most of them are probably much more likely than this one. But I will say one thing with conviction, and that is that regardless of whether he’s a former Windrunner or not, I do think that Brandon must have written his character like this for some reason. One doesn’t just overtly display pretty much the entire Windrunner philosophy (in stark contrast with 99.9% of the rest of Roshar) for no literary purpose. Like I said, the only question is what that literary purpose is in this case? Could Brandon be hinting at something more important here? What does everyone think?
  24. ...because he's not ready to accept that there are some people he can't save. He keeps trying to save everyone, it's deep down in his personality that he has failed every time he couldn't save someone, as if he killed them himself. Maybe he kills himself a little inside every time he loses someone. (and I just had the thought that Gavinor and Oroden (Kaladin's new little brother) are gonna be best buds. Just sayin.)
  25. So, I just want to start a discussion on the Ideals for the Elsecallers. We have good reason (and probably proof in a WoB somewhere) to believe that Jasnah has sworn three Ideals, maybe even four. Obviously the first we know. The second, or at least one of them, I'm inclined to believe is something like "I will be who I am. I will not let others define me." I think this could be one because it fits really well with the way Ivory talks, and his appreciation for the idea of being unmovable and unchanging. Another might be related to finding truth, although I worry that I'm just thinking this because of what we've seen from Jasnah as a character, which might be more related to Veristitilian ideals than Radiant Ideals. What other Ideals might she have found?
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