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Found 191 results

  1. Listening through RoW for the second time, I’m given to wonder: are Shards coming back together? We know that Stormlight and Voidlight mix into Warlight. Will the Shards themselves come together? And would peace be achieved by creating a combined Shard of War? Dalinar, as the Bondsmith of the Stormfather, seems to have as much power as can be had that once belonged to Honor. If the Storms merged, or perhaps if Dalinar loses the contest of Champions, but Odium goes down anyway…. Could Dalinar become War? Part of me thinks that this might be a step backwards for Dalinar. Part of me thinks it would be kinda lame for Brandon to do the exact same thing on Roshar as he did on Scadrial…… but maybe the Shards are coming together. They were never meant to be separate. Maybe Dalinar’s next big challenge is to fail in his contest and fall back into war, and claw his way into something better. And then there’s a question of what kind of Shard War would be. Hatred, restricted by oaths and discipline? Battle, but organized, with rules of engagement, Codes that control violence? Battle being handled by soldiers so that civilians are left in peace? I don’t know…..
  2. How connected were Spren to Honor? In general I view them as functionally separate. I do wonder about the economies of scale of this assumption however. Would an event like the recreance be directly felt by, or be able to directly hurt Honor?
  3. I looked online to see if anyone talked about this, and i didn’t find anything so I guess I’ll make a post. as some may know, I’m a believer that stormlight isn’t a book of the end of the world, but is in fact a book about the revival of the world, as in the following post talking about mistborn and stormlights differences. So in holding to this, I have a theory for book 5 but first some background to the thoughts. I believe in oathbringer the stormfather mention that odium rides the storm like honor used to, and what do we know about odium riding storms? He’s able to protect his army and ships while destroying others in his path. what if honor did the same thing. The stormfather said that honor loved humans. That he protected and died for them. What if he literally protected them from the storms when he was alive. shielding them and their cities from the full force of the storm. Kinda like what kaladin has done a couple of times. The bases of the theory come from one of the visions Dalinar gets when the midnight essence was released, the people lived in wooden houses, and was confused about why Dalinar was mentioning living in caves and in stone buildings. That must be because there is no need to worry about the storms, their god honor literally protects them. Also a legend, of karbronth. Called the city of bells. Saying they would hang bells outside to tell if a highstorm was even happening. Laughed at but maybe it holds more weight then we originally thought. and I think we are starting to see the stormfather change slightly, where he now considers the request of kaladin and of Dalinar.(why would he consider it if he couldn’t do the request?) To where in RoW when arguing with Dalinar he mentions how the two people didn’t survive due to a boulder hitting them. Dissipate just mentions how he only sees the front of the storm. (Stormfather is a filthy lier) what’s yalls thoughts? TLDR: I believe that the storms didn’t hurt people when Honor was alive. And that the stormfather might return to that state becoming a storm that cares.
  4. This is a theory I've been chewing on for a while but haven't wanted to post because I haven't had the time to put all the pieces together. Anyway, here goes: SPOILERS THROUGH RHYTHM OF WAR (I think) TLDR Ba Ado Mishram was the child of Honor and Cultivation, the common ground between singers and spren. The Heralds communed with her to some degree, perhaps tricking or trading with her, and she helped them access the Surges. This violated the agreement between the human refugees that bound them in Shinovar and forbade them to use the Surges (in the eyes of the singers at least) - and was the initial spren betrayal the Fused speak of. In retaliation, the singers went to Odium and became the Fused, sparking the first Desolation. The Heralds went to Honor and forged the Oathpact to enable them to fight the Fused and seal them in Braize. In the course of the war, the Fused were able to help Odium Unmake Mishram into Ba Ado Mishram. This is the singer betrayal the spren speak of, which led to many spren mimicing what Honor had done with the Heralds, and the beginning of the Radiants. Cultivation and Honor then had another child, this time made to represent the common ground between humans and spren - Mishram's younger Sibling. A lot of the evidence I've based this on from the text is drawn from the two in-world myths in the title, 'Queen Tsa and the cleverest of the three moons' and 'The Girl Who Looked Up". If you want to get into the weeds, keep reading. Myths of Roshar Firstly, we need to be establish the connection between these two tales, so let's look at what both of the myths are about: The tale of Queen Tsa is a story about a woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling to the heavens. She is aware that going to the heavens is forbidden for mortals, but still she ascends (by tricking the green moon Mishim to trade places with her). She eventually returns to the world, however she is carrying the child of Nomon, the blue moon god of her people. Her son bears the "mantle of the heavens" and she believes he will lead her people to glory. The tale of The Girl Who Looked Up is a story about a young woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling beyond the Wall. She is aware that going beyond the Wall is forbidden for her people, but still she ascends. She looks over the wall to and sees God's Light. She returns to the world, but first she steals a piece of God's Own Light and flees back home with it. As a result, the storms start coming - but her people now have Light. My conclusion is probably quite obvious by now... Queen Tsa is The Girl Who Looked Up Or, at least, the two represent the same person/people. While Queen Tsa may be an actual historical figure in Roshar, it's important to remember that Hoid - ancient, magical Hoid - is the one telling the tale.. And he's not above exercising artistic license when he wants to. Hoid is also the teller of the second iteration of the Girl Who Looked Up not long after this scene, the version which includes the Girl's people having "light renewed." (Oathbringer, 82) If that doesn't convince you, here are a few of the symbolic ties between Tsa and the Girl. i) Looking Up Like the Girl, Tsa quite literally spends her story looking up at the heavens and hatching her scheme to get there: she is literally a girl who looks up. Both Tsa and the Girl are warned against their quest: The Queen herself says that all know the eyes of mortals would burn at the sights, their minds run mad at the language of the heavens. The Girl questions several people on the Wall and is told: "There is a wall. Do not go beyond it, or you shall die.” (Oathbringer, 25) Both the Girl and the Queen reach for the sky: The Girl by climbing the "high, terrible wall stretching toward the moons. Blocking the sky..." (Oathbringer, 25) The Queen by designing "high towers for her city, built to reach ever upward, grasping toward the sky." (Oathbringer, 67) ii) Turning White In the myth of the Girl at the point at which she starts climbing the Wall, Shallan notices that the Girl's hair is white, and is unsure if it had always been. Brandon has stated there is some significance to this. In the story of Tsa, the Queen is represented in Hoid's smoke by a white tower while Mishim is represented by a green moon. Once they trade places however, Shallan notes that: "the moon had become white, and the single straight tower he made by swiping up in the smoke was instead pale green." (Oathbringer, 67) In both stories, the transition/appearance of white occurs after the protagonist sets out on their journey to the other side. iii) The Red Scarf In the myth of the Girl, we are told: "a vibrant red scarf grew around the girl’s neck, twin tails extending far behind her". (Oathbringer, 25) The significance of this scarf is hard to see until you look into the history of the scarf itself. It originated in Ancient Egypt and was worn by Queen Nefertiti. I think this is meant to draw yet another symbolic connection between the Girl and Queen Tsa, as she too wears the mantle of a Queen. As for the colour red, more on that later.* Lastly, when Shallan finds Hoid telling the story of Queen Tsa and the three moons in Kholinar: "He was dressed, strangely, in a soldier’s uniform—Sadeas’s livery, with the coat unbuttoned and a colored scarf around his neck." (Oathbringer, 67) iv) The Crime Both the Girl and the Queen commit a crime (or at least something that is viewed in world as morally wrong) once they reach the other side. The Queen breaks her promise not to look upon the sights of the heavens: "Tsa! Your word is broken!" (Oathbringer, 67) The Girl steals a piece of God's Light. v) The Light Both return home with a keepsake from the other side. The Girl returns to her village with the piece of God's Light, bringing with her the storms. We are told that the Light once taken could not be put back and that "each storm brought light renewed" and [of her people] "now they could see". In other words, her people now had Light eternal thanks to her gambit. The Queen carries a child of Nomon, one of the gods, who bears the "mantle of the heavens". The story elaborates that all descendants of this son bear this mantle (the blue skin) - or you could say all of her people now bear the mantle of the heavens. Symbolically, heaven's mantle usually refers to the stars themselves - or starlight. So all of her people now bear the Light of the heavens after her gambit. So if these two stories are about the same characters and events, what are they about? Who do they represent? We know of the history of the human refugees led by the Heralds, who were bound in Shinovar and likely warned against tampering with the Surges after the destruction of their home planet. We know that the First Desolation was sparked by some sort of betrayal by the spren involving the humans: "The betrayal of spren has brought us here/They gave their Surges to human heirs" (Words of Radiance, 28) Who is Queen Tsa/The Girl representing? What about Mishim, God's Light, the child of Nomon and Tsa? The Heralds & Ba Ado Mishram 1) The people of Tsa's kingdom = the people of the village = human refugees from Ashyn The Village and the world are both the strictly designated areas of the denizens of Tsa and the Girl's world, and they are forbidden to leave it. From what we know of the original Ashynite refugees, this is exactly what Shinovar was to them: humans were supposed to stay in the grassy, earth-like area designed for them - to this day the Shin curse stonewalkers ( the rest of Roshar is basically stone and crem). Another parallel is found in the fact that the people in the Girl's village lived in darkness - there was no Light. In much the same way, Shinovar is known to have no spren, and the ancient human refugees had no bonds to Rosharan spren - no Investiture - no Light. However, this story is not purely a physical one - much like the history of Roshar was not. 2) The City/World = The Village = Shinovar/the minds of men Queen Tsa's home city/the whole world parallels the village the girl lives in: the Village is described as being in the shadow of the great Wall - one villager says it's not a wall: "That’s just the way the sky is over there.” (Oathbringer, 25) The Wall is so huge the villagers almost seem to live beneath it, in the same way Tsa and her people live literally below the heavens. And while the humans did literally expand out of Shinovar into Roshar, but the rest of the tale - the theft of Light, the mantle of the heavens - doesn't quite add up with any purely physical objects in Rosharan history. We have known since Words of Radiance that the ancient singers felt the spren had betrayed them. This has been expanded on in subsequent books as we know the singers manipulated the Surges - using Stoneshaping etc. - and had some sort of bonds with the spren like all native Rosharan life. That ancient betrayal that sparked the war, and a cycle of betrayals. The spren betrayal, in the listener's words was that: "They gave their Surges to human heirs" (Words of Radiance, 28) We also know how spren bonds work now - human minds are linked to spren, which pulls them into the Physical Realm through the Connection. It is a meeting of minds that grants spren presence in the Physical Realm in exchange for granting humans Surges. This is why I believe the darkness the people of the Girl's village is representative of Cognitive darkness - the humans had no access to the Surges, to Stormlight - they lived in darkness. For further evidence we can look to the singers in this tale. 3) The creatures who lived beyond the Wall = the singers "She climbed down the steps...she hid among the creatures who lived on this side." (Oathbringer, 82) There are creatures who live beyond the wall, in "God's Light" (Oathbringer, 82) unlike the Girl's people living in the land of shadows. On the Physical level, this is accurate with what we know of Rosharan history - the ancient singers lived in Roshar, filled with spren and Investiture while the humans lived in earth-like Shinovar. It also tallies with what we've heard about the bonds between men and spren vs those between singers and spren.These realms are meant to represent the minds of men and singers respectively: at this point in time, humans had no Connection to the spren of Roshar - there was a barrier between their minds and those of the spren. Singers however, cannot provide what the humans can: The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men (Words of Radiance, 32) According to this, the ancient spren betrayed the singers because singers minds were too close to their realm (Shadesmar), and the sapient spren desired more: human connection. Much as we are told that Mishim "doesn’t want to be in the sky" and longs to come down among mortals and do all the things "she had watched from afar" (Oathbringer, 67). As for Nomon, in the tale we see how Mishim's brothers enjoy the company of Tsa, in a way they never seemed to with Mishim. This seems to parallel the sentiments of the singers as they realise the humans - like Queen Tsa - have more to offer the spren than they do; this suggests Nomon himself represents the spren. As for Mishim...more on that later/ 4) Queen Tsa = The Girl Who Looked Up = The Heralds Now, if the setting is ancient Shinovar then while the Girl/Queen of the people could represent an actual queen, she more likely represents the leaders of the humans living in Shinovar: the Heralds. After all, it is the Girl who is responsible for stealing the piece of God's Light, the coming of the storms, and "tearing down the wall" (Oathbringer, 25). In the RoW Nale visions, we see what is presumably the forging of the Oathpact (as it is the earliest vision). In it, Jezrien and Ishar invite Nale to take some charge, a duty that he accepts with honor - the Oathpact. Jezrien claims, "We will fix what we've broken." (Rhythm of War, 47) This seems to indicate that Jezrien and Ishar - at least - were responsible for starting the Desolations. We also infer that Nale was opposed to whatever Jezrien and Ishar did that "broke" something and started the war, as Jezrien claims he was correct all along. Let's combine this with what we already know about the start of the Desolations: 1) The spren betrayed the singers by giving their "Surges to human heirs" 2) The humans betrayed the singers in some way involving the spren "they were a people forlorn, without a home...their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." (Oathbringer, 111) 3) Some of the Heralds were responsible for breaking something, which started the Desolations So what did the ancient humans break? We know the Heralds were their leaders, and that squares with Jezrien's reference to what they broke when talking to Nale. In the story of the Girl, she steals a piece of God's Light. This leads to the breaking of the wall, the barrier between the land of shadows and the land of Light - and the Storms come as a punishment. It seems that the Heralds - the ancient humans - violated their agreement, they broke their word. "Tsa! Your word is broken!" (Oathbringer, 67) The Heralds broke their word by (in the eyes of the Fused) stealing the spren/Surges, breaking the barrier between men and spren and, which led to the Desolations. The Girl crossed the barrier between lands and stole Light, which led to the Wall being torn down and the Storms coming as punishment. After breaking their Pact with the singers, Jezrien and Ishar hatched a plan to forge a new one that might fix what they had ruined.= 5) The Sky = Beyond the Wall = Roshar/Shadesmar It follows that the Heavens and the land beyond the Wall are one and the same. The land beyond the Wall is illuminated by God's Light, which seems to tally with the heavens which are lit by starlight - and also the presence of the gods Nomon and Salas. 6) Tsa & Nomon's Child = The Piece of God's Light = Surges Both the Girl and the Queen journey to the 'Other Side' and return with something: the Girl steals a piece of God's Light, which she brings to her people providing Light eternal - "each storm brought light renewed, for it could never be put back, now that it had been taken." (Oathbringer, 82) The Queen returns to her land pregnant with Nomon's child, and gives birth to a son who will lead her people. He is said to bear "the mantle of the heavens" meaning the blue skin of Natanatan which mimics the blue light of Nomon's moon. In the story, Nomon is a god however; that blue light is God's light, one that his son carries. We are also told that "that is why to this day, the people of Natanatan have skin of a faintly blue shade.": Queen Tsa's people bear God's Light to this day. The key difference between the two tales is how this is obtained: the Girl steals a piece of God's Light, whereas Nomon seems to have delighted in Tsa's company - that was no theft. The only victim in the tale of Tsa is Mishim; she is the one who is tricked by Queen Tsa, she is the one who experiences "Loss." (Oathbringer, 67) She experiences the loss of "Nomon's kindness" (Oathbringer, 67): the loss of her bond with her brothers. To experience loss is to have something taken away: the Girl steals God's Light; the Queen steals God's affection. So what is God's Light? What is this thing that The Girl/Tsa/the Heralds stole? It's pretty clear, given what Light is in the real (cosmere) world - Investiture. Bonds. Or, as a Rosharan might say, Surges. These two stories - taken as one tale about the Heralds - rhyme very well with in-world canon we know, which I alluded to earlier. Let's take the two stories, strip them of their figurative facade and see what we're left with. To recap: Queen Tsa = The Girl = The Heralds The World = The Village/land of shadows = Shinovar/minds of men creatures beyond the wall = ? = singers Nomon = God's Light = spren Nomon's son = Piece of God's Light = Surges Storms = Desolations Mishim = ? = ? So, the Heralds lived and led the humans Shinovar, and were strictly forbidden from venturing beyond Shinovar and their minds from Connecting with spren and accessing Surges. Despite the warnings of some of their peers, the Heralds decide to breach the barrier between men and spren. They trick Mishim (?) into helping them access the Surges. Mishim feels betrayed by the Heralds, and claims that they broke their word. The damage is done, and the barrier between the minds of men and the spren is broken. The Desolations start as a result of this. However, every Desolation brings back the light renewed* (in this case I believe it alludes to the fact that the Heralds return with each Desolation/storm). So who is Mishim in the cosmere, this mysterious being that allowed the Heralds to access the Surges (a piece of God's Light)? Where is she in the story of the Girl Who Looked Up? We know that Mishim was the victim of loss in Tsa's story, so we simply have to look for a similar victim in the Girl's story: who did the Girl steal God's Light from? There are 2 answers to that question. 1) God's Light ("girl in the scarves slipping up to the grand source of light, then breaking off a little piece in her hand." (Oathbringer, 82) 2) The creatures beyond the Wall (aka the singers) The second is the easiest to comprehend: it fits with what we know of the lore. The Heralds/ancient humans stole (in the eyes of the singers) the Surges/Connection to Rosharan spren from the ancient singers - this is the betrayal that started the Desolations. It also works if we insert the singers in the tale of Tsa: Mishim (the singer) is jealous of Tsa's connection with her brothers Nomon and Salas: "‘Feasting?’ Her siblings had never feasted with her before." (Oathbringer, 67) "‘Songs?’ Her siblings had never sung with her before." (Oathbringer, 67) "Mishim...now knew another mortal emotion. Loss." (Oathbringer, 67) Mishim is jealous of and betrayed by the human Tsa's Connection with Nomon in the same way the singers are jealous of and betrayed by humans Connection to spren, whose "meat is men" . Tsa offers Nomon companionship that Mishim cannot, singing and feasting with him - just as the humans offer what the singers cannot: "We can't provide what the humans lend" (Words of Radiance, 32) The first is a bit murkier, but also makes sense with cosmere mechanics. You might ask how you can steal from a being made of God's Light, or how a piece of that being could grant one Surges. But we do have sapient beings made of 'God's Light' (Investiture), with whom a Connection can grant access to Surgebinding: spren. How can these two answers coexist? How can the Heralds have taken the Connection to Rosharan spren from a spren and taken it from the singers? Simple: Mishim was a spren who represented the Connection between the singers and the spren. We know that such spren can exist from Rhythm of War, because that is exactly what the Sibling is: "My song...the common ground, the Sibling said. Between humans and spren. That is … that is why I was created." (Rhythm of War, 110) The Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation, made to be the emulsifier between humans and spren. If Honor and Cultivation created such a being for the humans, is it not possible that they did the same aeons before? Either that, or they found the spren already in existence - the singers being native to Roshar, it is possible that such a spren arose naturally. If it didn't, if this mysterious elder spren was indeed born of Honor and Cultivation, then the spren made by Honor and Cultivation to bridge the gap between spren and humans is not the only child - he is the Sibling. A last piece of evidence - the chapter with the tale of Queen Tsa is titled 'Mishim' and begins with this epigraph: "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact." (Oathbringer, 67) We know now that this was the Sibling's Bondsmith, which seems appropriate for a chapter revealing lore about the character I believe to have been its predecessor. Let's turn back to the tale of Tsa and apply this new knowledge: at the end of the story, Mishim hears a new song which she recognises as the song of Nomon's child with Tsa . She feels loss - a spren that represents the Connection between singers and spren experiences the loss of light at the hands of the humans. This works perfectly as symbolism for the singers ancient loss and betrayal. However, it still leaves us with one final question: who is/was Mishim? Who was this great spren of Connection, that represented the Connection of the minds of the entire singer species to the spren? Hmmmm.... "Ba-Ado-Mishram...Connected herself to the entire singer species." (Rhythm of War, 73) "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people," (Oathbringer, 80) 7) Mishram = Mishim The first and most obvious connection here is the similarity of the two names Mishim/Mishram. Beyond this, let's look at everything we know about Ba Ado Mishram from the books: i) The Heralds know Ba Ado Mishram personally: "please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren." (Rhythm of War, 97) NOTE: Kalak calls her 'Mishram', not 'Ba Ado Mishram' as the Fused, Sja-Anat and other Voidspren do. ii) She is consistently described as crafty/cunning/intelligent: "Ba-Ado-Mishram, who had granted forms to the singers during the False Desolation—were crafty and conniving." (Rhythm of War, I-2) "She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces" (Oathbringer, 106) iii) She is trapped in a prison (the gem) and presumably wants to escape. Now lets look at how Mishim, the green moon is described: i) "the third moon is the cleverest." (Oathbringer, 35) ii) "she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35) iii) "everybody knows that Mishim—the third moon—is the most clever and wily of the moons.” (Oathbringer, 35) iv) "Mishim is always looking for a chance to escape her duty.” (Oathbringer, 67) v) “Everyone knows that Mishim is the cleverest of the three moons." (Oathbringer, 67) vi) "The queen was pious, but the moon was crafty." (Oathbringer, 67) [NOTE: Ishar is famously pious, and less famously crafty] vii) “As always, Mishim was hatching a scheme." (Oathbringer, 67) I find it too much of a coincidence that two characters with such similar names are consistently described with the same language. Furthermore, the characterisation of Mishim as a kind of rebel fits with what we know of Ba Ado Mishram, who led the singers in the False Desolation without Odium and the Voidspren. It also explains how and why Ba Ado Mishram was able to Connect herself to the minds of the entire singer species during the False Desolation. Her having been the spren of Connection between singers and spren, it makes sense that she would retain this capacity - and that binding her in the way they did would have some adverse effects on the singers: "Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too." (Rhythm of War, 49) "By capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram—locking her in a gemstone—humankind had stolen the minds of the singers in ancient times." (Rhythm of War, 24) Even the language of the Recreance in this quote seems to echo the myth of the Girl: humans stole God's Light from the minds of the singers. And Mishram, "though still crafty, has never again left her place." (Oathbringer, 67) Conclusion So that's my theory. Ba Ado Mishram - once called Mishram - was a spren who represented the common ground between singers and spren. The Heralds communed with her to some degree, perhaps tricking her, and this let them access the Surges. This act violated the agreement between the singers and the human refugees (in the eyes of the singers at least) - this was the initial spren betrayal the Fused speak of. In retaliation, the singers went to Odium and became the Fused, sparking the first Desolation. The Heralds in turn went to Honor and forged the Oathpact to enable them to fight the Fused and seal them in Braize. During the course of the war, Odium was able to Unmake Mishram, God's Own Light, into Bad Ado Mishram. This is the great singer betrayal that the spren speak of, that led to many spren mimicing what Honor had done with the Heralds, and the beginning of the Radiants. Finally, it is possible that Mishram was actually the first born child of Cultivation and Honor, created specifically to represent the bond between singers and spren. Centuries later, when the spren started making human Surgenbinders, Ishar came to Honor to help force order upon them (making the Radiant orders). At this point, Cultivation and Honor had another child, this time made to represent the common ground between humans and spren. They made the Sibling. If you made it this far thanks for reading, can't believe I actually typed this whole essay and someone actually read it. Excited for y'all to tear holes in it it!
  5. So what do we actually know about what went down in Ashyn? All Stormlight Archive spoilers: Feel free to let me know if I just need to re-read SA to refresh my brain on the details haha
  6. *R.O.W. AND GREATER COSMERE SPOILERS/THEORY* So, in Oathbringer at the battle of Thaylen City, when Dalinar says “I am Unity” and opens Honor’s perpendicularity, Odium responds with “We Killed You!”. The popular theory seems to be that this is evidence of the division growing between the power-Odium- and the man who holds the shard-Rayse. After a 4th reread of Oathbringer and R.O.W., I now believe this to be what we will one day see as an obvious hint that Cultivation helped Odium kill Honor in an effort to one day unite not two shards as harmony has done, but all three of the shards of the Rosharan system and quite possibly begin the reforming of all 16 shards back into Adonalsium. My reasons are as follows; First, why I don’t believe “We Killed You” was talking about Odium/Rayse is discussed in the Mistborn series and Arcanum Unbounded. It’s stated multiple times that the man who took up the shard Ruin, Ati, was very different than the power he took up. Hoid goes as far as to say he was “a kind and generous man” before ascension. We know by the end he was much more the power than the man, as eluded to when kelsier says Ruin “dangles a puppet” towards Vin when he talks to her. This would imply that once the person who ascended loses control of the power it is not a “We” relationship but a complete shift in who controls who. Before they lose control of the power the person who holds the shard never says “We” because they don’t view holding the power as a symbiotic relationship but as an expansion of themself and it seems once the balance of power is tipped in favor of the power itself, the person who ascended loses complete control. Now on to why Cultivation helped kill Honor. When Sja-anat comes to Taravangian, the time he asks her to give him a way to summon Odium at a specific time, she says that perhaps Cultivation has been planning much more subtly than Odium ever suspected. Also stating that Cultivation had touched/changed three people. These people are Lyft, Dalinar, and Taravangian. As of the end of Rhythm of War, we know Taravangian has ascended to the shard Odium, and Dalinar has at-least begun to take up the remnants of the shard Honor. We know Lyft was altered to run her surge-binding on Life-Light, theoretically making her have a stronger connection to the power of cultivation than any other person on Roshar. At the end of that book we also see Cultivation come to T-Odium saying that there is much they need to discuss. Prior to to Taravangian’s ascension we hear Odium say to Dalinar, when agreeing to the contest of champions, that Cultivation would kill him if he broke his oaths, implying she already has or had the intent to kill a shard. The reason I believe she intends to unite the shards is two part. One part is a simple word drop. After Taravangian becomes Odium, Cultivation says that she believed he could “hold the shard of Odium with ‘honor’”. The other is slightly more esoteric. What have we seen so far of different unshattered shards and their intent and how it relates to the aspect of adonalsium they embody? To my knowledge, they coincide rather directly. Preservation? Preserve at all cost. Ruin? Entropy at all cost. So why would Cultivation seek to kill anything? Well I think it’s obvious. She told us exactly what she’s doing. The same thing she did to Dalinar. She’s not killing, she pruning. She helped shatter Honors power because it was her dandelion. She blew on the flower and flung seeds of Honor’s power across Roshar because she knew that neither she nor Honor could defeat Odium. But if he could be delayed, the powers transferred into imperfect vessel, Dalinar with his ties to Odium while trying to hold Honors power, Taravangian holding Odium’s Shard with his ties to Cultivation. And Lyft. A radiant-Honor-, who runs on LifeLight-Cultivation, and I believe Stormlight 5 will bring us Odium’s attempted corruption of Lyft, beginning with Moash/Burr’s murder of her fellow edgedancer at the end of R.O.W. and possibly concluding with the death of Gawx, The Prime, in the next book. Big theory with wild swings I know, but let me know if you guys know anything that directly contradicts any of this
  7. Okay so there's probably a lot of evidence that could disprove this. This is not a super well-thought-out or well-researched theory, this is a random thought i had the other day, that I wanted to share. We've heard many times that, in the time leading up to his death, Honor changed. He went insane. And we've kinda assumed that that change is cause of the power of the shard overtaking Tanavast, or at least I have anyway. But what if it wasn't? What if it was cause Honor was a different person? Why Nohadon? Well a couple reasons. Firstly, he's one of the few people we know who was alive long ago enough, and narratively I doubt Honor would have been taken up by some rando we never heard of. There seems to be something special about him, and his philosophy was clearly very significant to the knights radiant. Dalinar had that vision of him that didn't involve the stormfather, but couldn't have been just a dream or something since he revealed info to Dalinar that Dalinar didn't know. And I came across this quote recently, in a different thread on this forum, about how in Nohadon's days (which i think was before the days of the official Radiants, and bonds were more loose then, but i'm not completely sure on that timeline) about how he wanted spren to be more choosy about who they bonded. So it would make sense that he was the one to go on to create the radiants, to enforce this idea. So yeah, what do you all think of this theory? I'm sure there are many holes to poke in it, but it seems like it could make a lot of sense.
  8. Theory: After Ambition was wounded in the Threnodite System by Odium and Mercy, she fled to another point in space. This point either was, or became, the Rosharan system. Here, Ambition was killed. Her death created the Barrier Storm in the Cognitive Realm around the planet Braize. This storm was later Invested by Odium to create the proto-Everstorm that was pulled through into the Physical on Roshar at the Battle of Narak. Ambition's death also created a wound in the Spiritual Realm in the Rosharan System similar to that which exists on Threnody. This is the reason there are spren on Roshar. Datapoints: I group this into two categories, Spren and Storms. SPREN: From Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell, we know that the wounding of Ambition in the Threnodite System created Shades: cognitive beings which manifest in the Physical Realm. We do not see similar manifestations in the Mistborn novels or the White Sand graphic novels. We know there are no Splintered Shards in the Scadrian or Taldain systems at the time these stories are set. We see similar manifestations in Elantris and Emperor's Soul (Seons and Skaze). We know there are Splintered Shards in the Selish system at this time. We see similar manifestations in The Stormlight Archive (spren on Roshar) (and voidspren on Braize). STORMS: From Khriss's statements in Arcanum Unbounded, we know that the Dor around Sel is a whorl of free Investiture created when Odium Splintered Dominion and Devotion there. From statements from Nazh and Hoid, we know that travel to/from Sel through the Cognitive Realm is very difficult and dangerous due to the presence there of the Dor. From statements by Nazh, we know that that travel to/from Braize through the Cognitive Realm was difficult due to the presence of this Barrier Storm. A possible chronology: 1) The Shattering of Adonalsium. 2) Odium and Mercy clash with Ambition in the Threnodite System. Ambition is wounded. 3) Odium (and possibly others) clash with Ambition in the Rosharan system. Ambition is killed, creating the Barrier Storm, and spren. 4) Odium goes to the Selish system. He clashes with Dominion and Devotion. They are both killed, creating the Dor. 5) Odium returns to the Rosharan system, and begins whispering in the ears of the Ashynites. 6) The Ashynites devastate their planet using Dawnshards. They are taken in as refugees by Honor and Cultivation on Roshar. Their God, Odium, comes with them. 7) Honor, Cultivation, and Odium make a deal that they think will allow them to live in harmony on Roshar. This is the Oathpact. 8) Odium intentionally goes against the Oathpact, triggering its punishment prohibitions. He is exiled to Braize, on the far side of the Barrier Storm. The cycle of Desolations begins. 9) Honor is Splintered. 10) Honor's Cognitive Shadow is bound to the spren of the Highstorm. 11) Several millennia pass. 12) Odium invests a not-insignificant amount of Investiture into the Barrier Storm, creating the proto-Everstorm in the Cognitive Realm. This process takes several centuries. 13) Finally, the Everstorm is pulled through into the Physical Realm on Roshar, creating a direct passage between Braize and Roshar. Questions: A] Why is this wrong? B] Were other Shards involved in the death of Ambition? Did Mercy join Odium for the final clash? Did Ambition? Did Endowment (who we know is relatively new to the Nalthian system)? Indeed... were Honor and/or Cultivation in on the kill? C] Did the death of Aona and Skai occur before the initial conflict with Uli Da in the Threnodite system; after this initial conflict but before the final conflict in the Rosharan system; or after the Rosharan conflict? D] When on this timeline did Honor and/or Cultivation arrive on Roshar? E] When was Odium's first contact with the humans on Ashyn?
  9. Ok this one is a little crazy but here me out. A lot of importance has been placed has been place on Kaliden being called the son of honor/tanavast some have theorized that this means that he is the biological son or grandson of the vessel of honor but this make little sense unlike the Greek gods shards don't seem to have a body that can impregnate someone . They are much closer to the abrahamic form of divinity, however there is a abrahamic form of divine sonship. Now is there anything similar to the incarnation in the cosmere. Yes Avatars appear to function very similar to the biblical incarnation, How coincidental that we are first introduced to the concept of avatars in stormlight. Some other things to consider Kaliden is called storm blessed before he become a windrunner implying a pre syl connection to the highstorm. The storm father seems oddly interested in Kaliden, he rarely takes to humans other then Dalinar but has communicated several times to Kaliden. What do you think dose these make any sense even in a crazy sort of way.
  10. Brandon has stated in the past that a Shard's intent is filtered through the vessel, and the vessel can have an effect on how the Shard's intent is portrayed. My idea is that Honor's broad intent, without the filtering by Tanavast is that it wants to form Connections. We can see this in Surgebinding (an art which, while being of both Honor and Cultivation, seems to be mostly Honor) is initiated by forming a Nahel bond. I also remember hearing somewhere (although I don't remember where) that because Honor violated the pact the Shards made not to settle on the same world, that they mustn't have been clearly defined well enough. This seems to imply that Honor at least follows oaths and Connections by nature of its intent. If this is true, then I think it is a reasonable assumption that Odium, without the filtering by Rayse, is about severing Connections. If these both apply then I think that the method of initiation to becoming a Voidbinder requires you to severe a Connection of somekind. We also know that Voidbinding is usually related to the Unmade, so you might be able to come up with a more detailed theory including that. Note, I do not think that you necessarily have to break Radiant Ideals or severe a Nahel bond to become a Voidbinder, just that it requires some Connection to be broken.
  11. Hi all! Thought I would run this one by you, What if the Ten Fools (three of which we have names for) are real, and what if they are creations of Whimsy? Although we really know nothing at all about the Shard Whimsy, I feel that this is right up their alley- Honor creates his ten Heralds, and Whimsy sees their opportunity to parody these solemn and epically heroic individuals. Whimsy creates their own ten highly invested cognitive shadows, each of whom bears a comedic flaw in contrast to the mighty attributes of the Heralds. I am in love with the idea of these ten immortal, super invested, interstellar jesters. Spreading Whimsy, but not being all that helpful to the grand scheme of things. My ambition is to someday put this theory to Brandon to get his views on whether this has any merit. In the meantime, I really wanted to share it with you all! Thanks gang, stay silly
  12. Do we know what happened to Honor's shard? If he was killed should the shard be left behind? If I recall though it has been some time since I read The Final Empire, were Ruin and Preservation's shard left behind which allowed Saz to take hold of them? Sorry if this question has been asked, it just popped in my head.
  13. Lirin ought to be an important character in future books. Rosharan humans’ Shard, Honor, is essentially the personification of oath keeping. He could have been about honor in a broader sense, but his Intent ended up being primarily about oaths. Of all the people on Roshar, which one’s character is most aligned with this Intent? Lirin’s. He is the most oath-keeping man on Roshar. He keep his oaths to a fault. If Lirin lived on a different world, that would just be one interesting attribute among many. But on Roshar, this should influence his Connection to certain forms of investiture, and give him credibility among the splinters beyond the credibility that people generally earn by integrity. As I have written elsewhere, I think there’s some foreshadowing that suggests he will bond an honorspren. If that happens, I suspect it will be unintentional. It also seems like surgeons are about to become more importantly to the plot, as Kaladin is about to need to find a cure for the Heralds and hopefully for other mentally ill people. This is likely to put surgeons and Heralds together. One of the Heralds said his madness could be temporarily alleviated if a Radiant swore an oath near him. It would be odd for Mr. Honor-able Lirin not to have attracted the attention of one of Honor’s spren yet, except for two things: Lirin is a pacifist and Radiants fight, and the honorspren were refusing to bond. However, Rhythm of War established that Windrunners can protect by being surgeons and that Syl’s old Radiant used to use her generally for non-violent protection (digging storm shelters, iirc), raised questions about how surgeons might use shardblades (as stethoscopes, Kaladin suggested), and saw the honorspren persuaded that they could resume bonding Radiants. But even if Lirin doesn’t become a Windrunner, we have a character who is all about Honor’s intent who’s in a profession that is suddenly relevant to the plot. Brandon has also made Lirin an interesting, three dimensional character already. We have the makings of a very important character here, possibly a main character. I like Lirin, and I will be frustrated if Lirin doesn’t get screen time while he’s at this major crossroads of theme and plot. #MoreLirin
  14. Welcome one and all, as I invoke the most potent of muses: half-baked rambling! Part one: Ground work It's probably for the best if I lay down some basic premises that I'm working from for clarity. Premise one: all arcana found on Roshar are, at their root, emanations of the Surges. Surgebinding, Voidbinding, fabrials, the "even more esoteric" system that Khriss theorises in the Roshar essay, the powers of the Unmade, the forms of the singers and whatever else there might be. The possible exception is the Old Magic, which Brandon himself has called its own weird thing. Premise two: Odium is fully capable of granting access to all ten Surges, the lack of Adhesion Fused is deliberate on Rayse's part. It makes more sense to me that he'd just copy/access the existing framework of Surgebinding, rather than building his own, separate 9/10 of Surgebinding. Premise three: there are Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of every Surge, as well as "Radiant" and "Voidish" expressions of the same. Part two: What was Rayse afraid of? What do mean by that? Under my interpretation, Rayse deliberately withheld Adhesion from the Fused, which seems odd. Why would he want his servants to only have access to nine of the Surges? Are Bondsmiths not proof that Adhesion can be an incredible boon to your forces? Even if they don't have access to the level of power of a Radiant Bondsmith, they should still have access to the same Adhesion abilities, just weaker. Having a couple of Fused who could act as walking batteries for the extremely Light-hungy Nex-im, for instance, feels like a great force multiplier. We can also infer that Odium can grant access to Adhesion, as a limited expression of it is the simplest explanation for the abilities of envoyform, making the lack of Adhesion Fused even more glaring. You might at this point be wondering why I claim that Rayse was afraid of something, only to blather about why it's weird that there are no Adhesion Fused instead. Worry not, I'll get to that. So, what do we know of Rayse's goals? Rayse wants to be the top dog in the cosmere and he wants to remain Odium. Rayse wants to be free to go on his murder rampage, so he does not want to Invest Odium anywhere, so as to not anchor him to a system. We can even track a possible modus operandi, as the Unmade are implied to have been something else in the past and several Voidspren show the telltale red of corrupted Investiture, which suggests to me that Rayse would typically twist existing things to serve him, rather than creating those things himself. We can also see this in his actions as tempter on Ashyn and his goal to make Rosharan humanity his army, after the cycle of Desolations has toughened them up enough. We also know that prior to the False Desolation and related events Roshar had two Pure Tones, after it had three. This implies to me that something that happened there Invested Odium on Roshar. Something we can guess didn't happen at Rayse's volition. Now, you might ask "why would being Invested be a problem to Rayse? Surely he'd not be morally conflicted at reclaiming any part of his that got Invested somewhere?" And no, I don't think he'd have a moral problem with taking back his power, but I don't think he can, or at least it's hard for him. As other people have already noted, for instance the thread speculating that Division is Odium's Truest Surge, Odium generally stands for something divisive, just as Honor can be seen as uniting. And yes, both can switch places, but hatred generally pushes you away from people and following some form of framework generally makes you part of a group. As just one example, we can see these thematic elements of Odium and Honor in the Surgebinders: Knights Radiant are a union of spren and humans (traditionally), working together to do things neither can do alone. Fused are solitary, forgoing even the normal relationship between spren and singer, as well as casting out the soul of the singer whose body they inhabit. And Odium's forces have other thematic divisions or separations as well: Most of the Fused have lost track of their original goal, being unlikely to relinquish rule to the common singers if they actually won. They are no longer fighting for their stated goal and are thematically separated from themselves. The former parshmen have been denied both the opportunity to make their own future and the ties they gained to the various national cultures of Roshar, they are separated both from their own self-determination and cultural roots. Moash/Vyre is very straightforward, he's separated from his emotions. The Unmade are separated from whatever they were before they were Unmade. And, while he's not known to be on Odium's side, Renarin's bond to an Enlightened spren sets him apart from normal Radiants. So, Odium is a (generally) separating force, so what? Well, that, along with the idiosyncracies noted by robardin, I believe, last week, points to that Odium might have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture. -Oathbringer, chapter 118 -Rhythm of War, chapter 112 -Rhythm of War, chapter 111 For all Rayse's threatening he apparently can't make good on the threat to force the Fused to stay away or to punish a traitor? It seems to be a lot of bluster. So what would Rayse be afraid of? Becoming Invested somewhere, hindering his murder-athon and, by extention, someone else being able to manipulate Odium's Investiture freely. Thus my conclusion is that Rayse wouldn't risk having Bondsmith-alike Fused, on the off chance that they'd so something Bondsmith-y, resulting in some of his power going where he doesn't want it. This might also be why the Everstorm doesn't infuse gems, though I do believe that Voidlight naturally cycles back to Odium, even if it can't be actively reclaimed. Also that Rayse seems like a blithering idiot for not following the Returned design philosophy, but then again, it's entirely possible he couldn't tweak that to run only on Voidlight, rather than Investiture over all. A side-note at the end of this is also that I think it could be possible that the Fused getting a passive and an active effect from their Light might be a conscious design descision on Rayse's part, as an attempt to make less of Odium's Investiture circulate. Part three: Unmade, Surges and cousinspren So, what's the deal? Well, there's this WoB: Which has of course had people trying to find which one maps to which Order, though note that Brandon says it's not a perfect match. I have personally thought that the Unmade should fill the Bondsmith spot, being parallel to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I'm fully prepared to accept that this might be the case, that bonding an Unmade produces a Bondsmith, even though the power of the spren itself isn't in the same slot. However, I recently encountered something that shifted my perspective and made me think that this might not be the case. Now, as I stated in part one, I believe that whatever the Unmade powers are, they fully fit within the context of the Surges. I also favour the cousinspren method of parallels, as each cousinspren seems able to manifest the primary Surge of the associated Radiant Order, e.g. windspren known to stick things together, a manifestation of Adhesion. (I do think that properly what I call the primary Surge would be denoted secondary Surge, as otherwise the Radiant Order that lacks a corresponding Fused Brand is Windrunners, not Bondsmiths. But I'm gonna use primary, since that's the order they're listed in.) Now, we need to be conscious of that there are three Unmade we don't really know anything about; Ba-Ado-Mishram, as all her Connection and Bondsmith-seeming shenanigans don't seem to have been a thing before the False Desolation, going by the Gem archive, that being her only known abilities makes it hard to line her up with anything, as it's apparently not her base powerset, Dai-Gonarthis, who is an almost complete unknown and Chemoarish who is much the same. That in mind, let's make a list! Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion Unmade: Yelig-nar I personally believe that Yelig-nar's ability to grant all Surges possibly comes from an application of Adhesion, similar to the Bondsmith ability to manipulate the Surges of other Radiants. He also fits thematically, being known as Blightwind. Skybreaker/Surge of Gravitation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish We have not seen the influence of any Unmade that I would assume uses a form of Gravitation, leaving only the three unknowns. Dustbringer/Surge of Division Unmade: Nergaoul Nergaoul's power could well be a Cognitive manifestation of Division, it both breaks down resolve and discipline and causes people to fight like individuals, not soldiers. Thematically the total loss of control of the Thrill is absolutely counter to the Dustbringer theme of self-mastery. Edgedancer/Surge of Abrasion Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish Not much to say here, again I don't think an Unmade we've properly seen the influence of lines up. Thematically Chemoarish might fit, being known as Dustmother, but that is tenuous. Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression Unmade: Moelach Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation od the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is. Lightweaver/Surge of Illumination Unmade: Re-Shephir Shallan directly compares her to a creationspren, confirmed to be the cousinspren of Cryptics. Thematically she makes tangible darkness where Lightweavers make ephemeral light. Elsecaller/Surge of Transformation Unmade: Sja-anat Sja-anat changes spren, the most straightforward cause of which would be Transformation. Thematically she's also semi-present in both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, in addition, she's called Taker of Secrets, contrasting the scholarly characterisation of the Elsecallers, she aquires the knowledge of others rather than making new knowledge. Willshaper/Surge of Transportation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish The last Surge which no Unmade seems to have exhibited thus far, making it hard to guess. Stoneward/Surge of Cohesion Unmade: Ashertmarn Ashertmarn could be placed in a few different spots, and I myself have previously gone with Abrasion, but after some consideration I think that the power of the Heart of the Revel is possibly a Cognitive manifestation of the Surge of Cohesion, making people soft and pliable. Thematically the hedonism of Ashertmarn can also be seen as an inversion of the Stoneward theme of being where they need to be. Well, that took absolutely forever to type, if you made it here, thanks for reading. I hope it's all (fairly) clear and possible to follow, though I know I tend to ramble. Discussion both welcome and encouraged. ¤_¤
  15. We know Honor was splintered around the Recreance and that the Recreance was prompted by that generation of Radiants finding out humans were the real Voidbringers, and at that point Tanavast was overtaken by Honor's Intent and was also fighting Odium and so wasn't mentally stable enough to tell the Radiants that they were still morally okay. So what if the Radiants, having not a massive amount of guidance on how shards work, picked up on the fact he was fighting another god from his "ravings", and also noticed how he'd become obsessed with all oaths, good or bad and assumed that this was a consequence of the radiants existing. So what if they decided that they should break their oaths because they thought the oaths were what was draining Tanavast's sanity? Give just how powerful Surgebinding is, we can assume that 9/10 orders of radiant, with most of each type spren probably bonded, all releasing the Investiture they had (kinda) borrowed from Honor did something like in Warbreaker, where The Stormfather also backs this up: The Radiants didn't abandon their oaths because they thought they weren't in the moral right anymore, they abandoned their oaths because they were "try(ing) to protect the world".
  16. I have a theory: Two people will become the vessels of Odium, Cultivation and Honor, with Honor divided between the two of them. For instance, Dalinar might ascend to Odium and half of Honor, becoming an Odium-heavy shard of War. Someone else would ascend to Cultivation and the other half of Honor. Maybe Lirin would be Honor-vation, as he’s got Edgedancer vibes but is honorable to a fault. Each would be an active shard, unlike Harmony, especially War. War might be even more motivated to take over the cosmere than Rayse was, because of the Intent of the new shard. Cultiv-honor (can anyone come up with a real name?) would have the potential to be a very “good” Shard, depending on who the vessel is and how the two shards combine. I am only raising this as a possibility. I wouldn’t bet on it happening.
  17. We know Honor was splintered around the Recreance and that the Recreance was prompted by that generation of Radiants finding out humans were the real Voidbringers, and at that point Tanavast was overtaken by Honor's Intent and was also fighting Odium and so wasn't mentally stable enough to tell the Radiants that they were still morally okay. So what if the Radiants, having not a massive amount of guidance on how shards work, picked up on the fact he was fighting another god from his "ravings", and also noticed how he'd become obsessed with all oaths, good or bad and assumed that this was a consequence of the radiants existing. So what if they decided that they should break their oaths because they thought the oaths were what was draining Tanavast's sanity? Give just how powerful Surgebinding is, we can assume that 9/10 orders of radiant, with most of each type spren probably bonded, all releasing the Investiture they had (kinda) borrowed from Honor did something like in Warbreaker, where The Stormfather also backs this up: The Radiants didn't abandon their oaths because they thought they weren't in the moral right anymore, they abandoned their oaths because they were "try(ing) to protect the world".
  18. So, I've had a couple of theories for a while now that I've wanted to put out there. I don't know if a WoB contradicts them, but I figured I should post this first one. The storm father's explanation in Oathbringer of how the desolations started began with the fuzed and singers attacking humans and the heralds creating the oathpact to stop them. But why exactly did the ancient singers attack in the first place? The way the books are set up, it appears as though after humans arrived on Roshar, they attacked the singers, and the singers retaliated, turning to Odium for power. But this never made much sense to me. First of all, it's never explicitly stated what the humans did to the ancient singers, and second, why would Honor choose to side with human invaders over the people of the world he'd made his home? The first point is actually very important. Sanderson has managed to use character's assumptions to set the tone of the series to great effect so far. Describing the thrill in such a way that readers naturally assumed it to be adrenaline is one of the best examples. The Ella Stele, the ancient document showing that humans were the original VoidBringers, only states that the humans betrayed them, with the betrayal extending to spren, stone, and wind. But, just as with the "Lost Radiants", the betrayal is not explicitly described. That seems intentionally vague to me. As if leaving enough room for something to be interpreted as a betrayal, with the singers interpreting the humans' actions as one, even if it hadn't been intended as one. As I said, the second thing that didn't make sense was why Honor would choose humans who'd supported Odium over the singers who had been of Roshar, especially if they had betrayed the singers who had taken them in. Imagining it as humans going back and forth between Honor and Odium seems unlikely. I think it much more likely that the human abandoned Odium shortly after arriving on Roshar. They saw Honor, and maybe Cultivation, as being more worthy deities, and chose to worship them instead. But then, what triggered the Desolations? Jealousy. As the introduction to chapter 32 of WoR, we get the following passage from a listener's song. The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. This is the passage that sparked this theory when I first read WoR and then Oathbringer a few years ago, with the last line being the most significant to me. If the Listeners had this song, then they knew about the bond between spren and humans/singers. And this passage makes it seem like spren seem to prefer humans to singers for some reason. The betrayals between singers and spren are mentioned in RoW on at least two occasions. The first is mentioned by Blended during Adolin's trial, when she's testifying against him. The second betrayal is implied by Leshwi to Venli, when she says the spren have forgiven them. But what exactly were these betrayals? I think it has to do with how humans can become surge binders much more easily than singers. Syl tells Kaladin in WoR that Parshendi can't become surgebinders, and Venli expresses her surprise to bonding Timbre in Oathbringer for the same reason. I don't know why spren can bond humans more easily, my current guess is because their emotions are more accessible, but if large numbers of spren were drawn to humans and away from singers after the humans arrived, that could easily be seen as a betrayal that extends to the spren, wind, and stones. This leads to my previous conclusion, where singer jealousy is specifically what triggered all this, which is also the betrayal mentioned by Blended. Odium almost certainly fanned the flames, increasing the ancient singers' jealousy of humans drawing the spren, and making them angry at the spren for "betraying" them, but that jealousy was his opening. The singers turned to Odium, who granted them the power to take revenge on humans, which made them the easily manipulated army he wanted. Thoughts?
  19. Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind? Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out. Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't. It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there. Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow.... And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?
  20. Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind? Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out. Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't. It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there. Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow.... And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?
  21. In oathbringer, odium said that I would have to destroy honor's remains as he can already see this going wrong. I am paraphrasing here. What does that mean?
  22. In one of the visions honor said something like ' without the dawnshards the best way to defeat odium is to get him to agree to a contest of champions.' but we were introduced to the dawnshards so might they play a more important role in book 5 than we originally thought?
  23. Hello, I'm new here but I've had a very tenuous theory about Honor's splintering that has been brewing in my mind as I reread the stormlight archive. It is said multiple times in the books that towards the end of Honor's life he condemned the Radiants to eventually destroy Roshar and at least once was said to have seemingly focused more on the actual oaths themselves and not necessarily what they meant. My hypothesis, based on the timing of his death (after Aharietiam but before the Recreance) and the above, is that Honor was able to be splintered because the Oathpact was broken. It would make considerable sense given that the Honorblades are, as far as we can tell, splinters of Honor and the Heralds are likely either entirely splinters or Invested enough by Honor that he would be affected by their choices. Even more, while we don't know exactly how the Investiture of it worked, something like the Oathpact (capable of holding back Odium in many ways until certain conditions were met. I base this on the fact that we don't see Odium's direct influence until Oathbringer which is after the Return begins, and given that we know powerful entities on the Voidbringer side can't enter right away it stands to reason that Odium is at least limited in some capacity from direct influence until the Return has begun for some time.) would likely have to involve Honor's influence or Investiture in some way. It is, after all, an oath and made by his chosen wielding splinters of his power. This, of course, does not explain the actual battle or some such, though I wouldn't be surprised if the Shattered Plains was involved. (It feels too neat to assume that is why they're shattered in the first place, but given how little we know, the possibility is not ruled out in my mind.) But I believe this theory would provide a step forward in understanding both why Honor changed at the end of his life and how he was able to be splintered at all and perhaps, even, why he decided to start divesting himself of his various responsibilities (i.e. creating Honorspren) towards the end of his life. What do you guys think?
  24. I have had this theory for a long time now that Cultivation cultivated Syl as a part of her gambit. But listen to me for once. This might sound crazy but might make sense in a minute. I guess we can all agree that Syl is different from most of the honorspren. She is just too jovial and lighthearted than most honorspren we have seen. Well... also Rua, but that's probably due to his bond with the Lopen. Then I reread the part in Oathbringer when Kaladin returns to Hearthstone. Another pure voice. Pure being the keyword here. I'm certain that spren can hear the Rhythms of Roshar. And the tones of the three Shards are described to be the pure tones of Roshar in RoW. Honor is dead. Why would Odium bother Syl? It is Cultivation's voice. Like tapped crystal. Dalinar described Cultivation's voice to be like 'tumbling stones'. Tapped crystal. Tumbling stone. Maybe I'm overthinking, but both of these voices are of Cultivation. What else did she do? Probably kept Syl sleeping for that millennium. I mean, we can't take the explanation to be Syl's mind being childish. That... doesn't sound Brando's style to me. 'Cause there is only her. Only her. A single spren slept for a thousand years after breaking her bond. Coincidence? I think not. Why? The bigger question is why. Ok now. Hear me. There is too much in my head that I can't remember now or can't explain. But here is my theory. Kaladin is the 'Son of Tanavast'. The successor of Tanavast (refer to this WoB). And Cultivaton wants him alive. Syl is mostly the reason Kal is alive. And that's why we love her. In Book 5, Dalinar loses the contest of champions. Yet, somehow, he will be able to reforge Honor. Instead of bearing the Shard himself, he gives it to Kaladin because now he is bound to serve Odium. And Kal ascends to Honor. I don't have much to support this other than: Kal's first chapter being 'Honor is Dead'. Kal saying 'Honor is Dead'. Cultivation only influences people who will somehow be related to godhood. And Dalinar being too obvious a choice for Honor.
  25. In RoW, Venli mentions “Honor’s Moon” when referring to Nomon (the light blue moon). This got me thinking and I went onto Coppermind. Sure enough, we have a green moon (Mishim) and a violet moon (Salas). The same colours as the Lights. Is Mishim Cultivation’s Moon and Salas Odium’s Moon? It makes sense. Could each moon on Roshar be connected to a Shard?