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Found 150 results

  1. Dalinar and co. have been discussing the Heralds as a possible resource in fighting the Voidbringers. I think this idea is hella cool, and it would totally add sauce to the story, but... Taln is mad. Ash is kinda mad, or at least horribly depressed and wants nothing to do with humanity. Nale is bordering sociopathic. Ishar is...somewhere in Emul, I think? Trying to conquer it in some crazy war, which seems the mark of a madman to me, despite what Ashyn says to the contrary. Moash killed Jezrien, and it seems like he intends to do more. I don't know where the other Heralds are, but the Desolation is back and they're choosing to remain hidden, so...
  2. I'm now on my third trip through the Stormlight books, I realized that on the night of Gavilar's assassination, at the party, Szeth walks by an old man he thinks is drunk... But it's actually Jezrien himself!!!!!!! He says the same thing at the end of Oathbringer before Moash kills him. An Easter-egg across 3 books... nice
  3. 1. Why was Jasnah in the market and why did she have drawings of the Heralds? Also, did Shallan draw them? 2. Who is the "Midius" Ash mentions in reference to Jasnah's sketches 3. When Taln told Ash to follow him, he said someone was waiting for them. Who? Subquestion: It seemed like he lost lucidity in the middle of leading Ash, and then that whole thing with Jezrien dying happened. (Seriously, Brandon, are you trying to ruin my solid thug-life rep? Second time I teared up reading this book.)
  4. Now that Heralds can be permanently killed, does Jasnah need to change her plans? Her plan to forcibly return the Heralds to Damnation depends on Odium being unable to just kill Heralds. Given that they can return to Roshar if they so wish, risking them being killed permanently for a brief respite just does not look like a rational move anymore. What strategies does this leave the Knights Radiant with?
  5. Hello! Fairly new to the Shard and this is my first post. I apologize if this topic has been covered but I searched and couldn't find a direct answer. I have recently finished my third listen of Oathbringer and started thinking about greater implications of Odium's creepy new dagger. If Ishar is killed (for real) by this dagger, will the requirement of Oaths become removed from the nahel bond? Since Honor is dead, it seems like the rules of being a Radiant are already starting to flex and bend more and more, what with the Skybreakers literally fighting for Odium, or Malata and her very anti-social spren who seem largely intent on destruction for its own sake. However, it seems like the first Oath is still required for the bond to form, regardless of the difference of other higher Oaths. Since Ishar was the one who decided to implement the Knights Radiant and lay down this codification of Oaths, would his death lead to the relaxation of this requirement? Would we get the problems on Roshar that Nohadon speaks of in Dalinar's flashbacks, with surgebinders that can bond spren in a more private contract between just the two of them, allowing someone who is less-than-nice to wield great powers? Would this in turn actually cause the destruction of Roshar - as feared by Honor in his last days - due to surgebinding? It seems like Honorspren have always largely been rather strict with their bonded human partners, but I get the sense other spren wouldn't be nearly so choosy or demanding unless they had to be. And if Ishar isn't the one holding the collective Radiant spren to the necessity of Oaths, then what is? I get the impression that the spren aren't exactly all in a unanimous vote with one another about most things. What else, aside from divine/semi-divine will, could cause all of them to agree on Oath requirements? The other option could, of course, be that Cultivation would hold everyone to the Oaths regardless of Ishar living or not, but she's so mysterious and rarely seems interested in interfering with humans in a large, authoritative oversight kind of way. I'm really hoping one or more of you clever people have some answers or ideas!
  6. Okay so when I was re-reading Oathbringer again I paused when I read Chapter 88 voices. In this chapter it's a flashback where dalinar is talking about how he needs to drink (the first chapter we see dalinar turns to spirits) and he eventually goes out to find a beggar named Ahu. Ahu is drinking and talking about the voices and how they are made. He seems to know a lot about how the spiritual aspect of the screams that dalinar (and szeth) hear. Then he mentions 4 of the unmade and says "Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking thourgh walls." Why the heck does this random beggar know so much. And why can he track and even hear where Moelach (the thrill) is? Is it just another mad man whose mind is more open to the cognitive realm as we see in MSH. Or is Ahu some kind of herald that was pausing in Kholinar. And if so which one. I'd love to hear you thoughts!
  7. I know Dova has been covered before, but I didn't find a thread that reconciled all the information we have. I really think Dova is Pailiah. At the end of Oathbringer, when Taravangian is "confessing" to Dalinar he says that an ardent, Dova, came to him and warned him of the desolation coming. Mr. T says he suspects she is a Herald, Battah'Elin. But we have a WoB: Pailiah She has made an appearance as "the old ardent in the Palanaeum".[3] They're both pretending to be ardents in the same library? Granted it's a BIG library and Dova probably spends most of her time in the secret kill rooms, not the library. But could Mr. T be wrong or lying about which Herald she is? Dova is not identified on screen by name. There is a Silent Gatherer writing down a death rattle at the end of WoK when Szeth visits Mr. T, but she is not described at all physically. We don't know if Dova is "old" looking or not. Now we know Mr. T is lying to Dalinar about how he found out about the impending desolation and he's lying about when Dova joined the Diagram. She joined after she figured out they were killing people to get the death rattles and offered to help. The Diagram was already off and running. (Good luck with killing her, idiot) Mr. T found out about the impending desolation because Gavilar told him about the visions he was getting and his task to unite the world. Very minor reference in the interlude where Dova is discussed. Could be a little clue, Pailiah is referred to, but Battar is not. I think it fits more for Pailiah, the Herald of the Truthwatchers, to be the one in the secret hospital killing poor and family-less patients. Truthwatchers have regrowth and the truthwatchers we've met like Ym and Stump were healing the poor and family-less for free. From what we've seen of the Heralds who abandoned their oaths their madness often is a perversion or inversion of what they were supposed to stand for. Shallash Herald of Beauty and Art destroys art now, Nale of Justice twists the law to allow him to kill people he already wants to kill for other reasons. And so on. Pailiah being Dova fits that inversion well. As to why Mr. T said he thinks she's Battah'Elin, maybe he really thinks she is. As shown above she came to him after he had his day of singular brilliance, so maybe he figured out she was a Herald, but was wrong about which one she actually is. He could be lying, but that's an odd lie. Unless it's something Pailiah / Dova asked him to lie about. The Truthwatcher Herald asking people to tell lies. Maybe there are two Heralds at the library, maybe they both really like reading. Battar is the Elsecaller Herald, maybe she's scholarly like Jasnah. As for Pailiah: "The Palanaeum was named for Pailiah the Herald. In fact, it was named based off the Greek word "Athenaeum".[5]"
  8. Unmade Origins Most people probably already know this but Unmade are named after deities of the ancient near east, they also have some linguistic connections to Urdu/Hindi languages: While this might not hold any significance i believe this isn't a mere coincidence, they are ancient godspren. I find this quote particularly interesting, it depicts Unmade as related to human emotions, not people, not parshmen. This connection might suggest that Unmade share their origin with humanity - the devastated world of Ashyn. Just as Stormfather embodies Highstorm or Nightwatcher - Transformation, Unmade would personify forces which shaped the world itself - powerful emotions that defined life on Ashyn. At first, i considered each one to represent particular Vice, like Wrath or Gluttony, but there's much more to them: They are not inherently good or evil, they are both, Vices and Virtues depending on one's perception. Each Unmade embodies the whole spectrum of a particular passion, just like Nergaoul personifies will to fight, some could interpret it as desire to protect, others to conquer. Divine Attributes We all know that each Order has set of Divine Attributes linked with it, apparently, they are somehow connected to the Unmade. I assume every Radiant has innate Virtue/Vice, related to Divine Attributes. A secondary surge of each order is considered dangerous. This is something that is mentioned over and over, Jasnah warns Shallan about Transformation, Nale says roughly the same thing to Szeth about Division, etc. Obviously, it's not relevant to the nature of power itself, because adjacent order gets it as their primary surge. Philosophically virtue is an elusive concept, it demands careful and sustained reflection before it can become part of one's life. Radiants seem to share this view, giving the nature of their Oaths. Pursuing a Virtue blindly and failing to understand it, might turn it into a Vice. Perhaps danger associated with the second surge, is related to twisting an ideal into something bad, possibly exposing Radiant to an Unmade/Odium? Virtue lies in Divine Attribute linked with corresponding Order. For example, Windrunners exhibit will to Protect people and show great capabilities in Leading them. Their attitude/perception makes the concepts of Leading/Protecting easy to grasp and comes naturally to them. Vice, on the other hand, is related to Attributes of adjacent Order. Windrunners or at least Kaladin, struggle with the idea of Justice. Kal view of this ideal is distorted, he takes it personally and allows emotions to cloud his judgment, his attempt at being righteous almost killed Syl. On a side note, Jezrien translates to "the Judge" in urdu, coincidence? While Moash still shows the attitude of a Windrunner through his desire to protect Parshmen, he contorted Just into Vengeful and led him to Odium. Similarly, Szeth stumblings revolve around being blindly obedient and not brave enough to challenge his masters. He mustered the courage to defy Nale and escaped Odium grasp as opposite to the rest of Skybreakers. If my assumptions are correct there is no Unmade related to Pious/Guiding attributes. I hate to poke a hole in Talenel's immaculate image but he remained unbroken simply because there is no Unmade corresponding to his Vice, not his unbreakable will. This gives at least some semblance to Heralds idea that he could handle tortures indefinitely, i assume they would need more substantial argument than just Taln being stubborn and blessed with strong willpower. Keep in mind that this not means being immune to influence of the other Unmade. Another piece giving this reinforcing this theory is particular relation of Thrill, Dalinar and Kaladin. Kaladin might not feel the same Thrill as other men do but still, have similar exultation. Stormlight drives him to action, grants immense focus and endurance, in the same way, as Thrill affects Dalinar. I suspect Windrunners share this characteristic, they receive purified version of the Thrill devoid of bloodlust. While this feeling is empowered by Stormlight/Honor, Kaladin felt this before bonding Sylphrena, thus this seems more like a natural affinity. Conversely, Dalinar is super susceptible to this effect, to him violence is intoxicating and addicting, he revels in conquest. Perhaps this is the reason why Bondsmiths bear no Blades, as a reminder of their Vice. Apparently, this correlation encompasses each pair of Radiant Orders and Heralds, one's Virtue becomes Vice of the other. If proven true, this theory could provide an answer to most persisting questions, the madness of Heralds, a reason for Recreance and Cataclysm of Ashyn. Let me know what you think.
  9. Just as one Dova theory is kind of shot down a new one rises from the ashes like a phoenix! This time with even flimsier evidence. https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/79188-dova/ I am starting a new thread because I don't now that she's Dova but I think she may appear in OB. Vedel is an odd choice as one of the 4 endpage Heralds in OB. The other three either show up multiple times in OB (Ash, Jezrien) or they are identified and discussed at length (Ishar). I would think Battar would be the choice since she is ID'd and they want 2 male and 2 female heralds. I wonder if Vedel made an appearance incognito. The end page order is Ishar, Ash, Vedel, Jezrien. This also happens to be the order in which these Heralds are heard from in the present in OB. Ishar - Chapter 24 he sends his angry letter as Tezim. Chapter 64 he is positively ID'd as Ishar by the Stormfather. Ash - I-8 Mem she pretends to be a new washerwoman to destroy Mraize's painting. Mraize identifies her and tells her he knows where Taln is. I-8 is after Chapter 87. So after Ishar is heard from and ID'd. Vedel - ???? Only mention of Vedel is Ch. 47 Jasnah is reading Taln's rantings "Vedel will train your surgeons" The interesting thing is that Taravangian ID's Dova as Battar in Ch. 121 pages 1204-1205 in the e-book. This is RIGHT BEFORE: Jezrien - Ch. 121 pages 1205 -1206 Jezrien is killed by Moash. Jezrien does make another appearance in flashback as Ahu in Ch. 88, but he is not ID'd as a herald then. The end page order corresponds to the order the Heralds are ID'd in present day, except for Vedel the Herald with the divine attribute Healing. Unless Dova, the ardent killing people in the Taravangian's secret hospital, is really Vedel and not Battar. Now is this circumstantial? Is this reaching? Of course it is. But I could still be right storm it! If she is not Dova, did she appear in the book another way?
  10. Good day fellas. It's been a while since I've posted on here and since I've checked in, so if this theory is old hat, I apologize. Tear me to shreds. But if not, I humbly submit this to the 17th Shard. I reread OB recently and I've been thinking of Brandon's repeated mentions of how the entire structure of Stormlight is going to be ordered; specifically that each order of Knights Radiant will have a flashback book through a different character's perspective. What I've not been able to wrap my head around is with who he's chosen for his flashbacks for the subsequent books - it seems we have an extra Lightweaver in the bunch with Ash - the Herald and Patron of Lightweavers - being present in the back five. With her inclusion, we've got representatives from each order present in Brandon's planned 10 book sequence: Kaladin/Windrunner, Shallan/Lightweaver, Dalinar/Bondsmith, Eshonai/Willshaper (probably), Szeth/Skybreaker, Renarin/Truthwatcher, Lift/Edgedancer, Taln/Stoneward and Jasnah/Elsecaller. So that leaves our interesting friend Ash - who according to tradition is the leader of Lightweavers. And we're missing a Dustbringer (or Releaser if you're gonna be PC about it) book. I think Ash is going to become a Dustbringer. This way she will make the flashbacks of the books nice and ordered and sequenced and each order gets one book. But I also think it works with the text. We know the Heralds are essentially just immortal (unless you have a special knife!) humans and thus fallible to human emotions that might attract the right type of spren. It also seems like another prerequisite for being a KR is to be flawed or damaged in some way and the Nahel bond is an avenue for that KR to explore their flaws and come to terms with them (Kaladin's depression, Shallan's repressed memories, etc.) Look at Ash's character for a second: what do we know about her off the top of our heads? She destroys. Brandon has spent three books putting in overt references to Ash destroying her own visage in works of art depicting the Heralds. Sounds a little Dustbringery to you? Ash is also sane, as we saw in her handful of viewpoints in Oathbringer but is dealing with an incredible amount of guilt for the last four and a half thousand years by leaving Taln to be tortured on Braize. There we also have the unofficial KR flaw - her mountain of guilt that gives her a compulsion to destroy any art depicting her as a way of ... atonement, maybe? Either way, I think this is enough to probably attract an Ashspren. We know from Malata that Ashspren like to destroy and have a bit of a chip on their shoulders. I think they would love the fact that Ash has spent nearly five thousand years destroying. If you were an Ashspren looking for a Nahel bond, she would be a prize catch, right? I think there's a little aversion to her being a Dustbringer in my head because I'm thinking along the lines of "but she's the Herald of Lightweaving! She just CAN'T be anything else!" But I think I've argued my brain out of that position. First, we know that Heralds can form a Nahel bond - Nale mentions he became a Skybreaker and shows off his fancy non-Honourblade shardblade. Who is to say that a Herald who joins an order has to join THEIR order though? There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule about it. Especially when they've gone through such changes in the past five thousand years. Ash is not simply the herald of beauty and creativity anymore. While some of the other Heralds have gone insane, Ash seems to have just gotten flipped around. She represents destruction now. So there ya have it. Let me know what you think.
  11. I have been rereading Oathbringer and I am starting to notice a few connections between the various Moash parts that may relate to Odium's plans. First, the Fused are slowly going crazy because they have been reborn so many times. Also, it seems that the Fused do not have as fine of control over their surges as the corresponding Radiant orders. The Fused are also becoming a liability because they are being reborn at what seems like a greater rate than previous Desolations. Which means that Odium needs a replacement. Which leads us to Moash. First, the Fused are collecting Shardblades and Shardplate. Secondly, Moash kills Jezrien with a dagger that has a gem in the pommel and the wounds bleeds black smoke(similar to nightblood), we also know that the blade is functionally similar to hemalurgy. The gem in the pommel also lights up after Jezrien dies. So the blade is stealing something and storing it in the gem. Also, Odium only has nine orders of Fused and seems to be missing one for the Surge of Adhesion, which is a primarily Honor based Surge. Given that the Heralds have a direct connection to Honor through themselves which is channeled through the Honorblades, I think Odium might be trying to gain the ability for his forces to use Adhesion. Not in the Windrunner sort of way, but more like a Bondsmith. If he uses the dagger to give Moash the direct connection to Honor so that he can use the Honorblade with levels of power magnitudes larger than a Knights Radiant. Moash would then be able to act as basically a dark Bondsmith and unite Odium's forces. Which leads us to my next point: Odium wants and needs to replace the Fused. I think he wants to do this by making Voidbinding Radiants. I think the direct connection to Honor might be able to heal the shardblades long enough for Odium to corrupt the spren and then bond them to Singers or Humans. Which would give the Void Radiants less checks on their power than a Knights Radiant and more Surges and more control of said Surges than a Fused. Sure, Odium's power might burn through them quicker, but he can always get more people to bond. They could also be used to discredit Dalinar's Radiants through false flag attacks on allies. And with Moash's connection to Honor's investure, the Void Radiants could be powered without having to rely on stored investure. It would also fit with the whole Odium is the new Vorin god theory that has been floating around.
  12. So - been reading through stuff about the Unmade while I wait for mates in a pub, and something just struck me. We know that Honor created the Heralds and poured part of his power into them. Based off what we know about how Odium and Honor can enter into pacts regarding the use of champions, what if something similar happened originally. Honor created the Heralds and Odium reacted against this by creating his own set of Heralds. Something changed his mind, or he wasn't happy about putting his power into them and he went back on this, in effect, be Unmade his Heralds. However, as we know, emotions, forces, perception of reality create Spren. What if after being unmade the memory of these Heralds produced them in their current form. Hence them being an abberation and something weird. They weren't originally Spren, but became Spren. Now - please rip this theory to shreds. I haven't had time to look through the WOB to disapprove myself. Is this a conceivable theory?
  13. I can't believe I didn't notice this earlier. Nale is a Skybreaker of the fifth Oath. If the Skybreakers get Plate as part of their Radiant progression, Nale should have a nice shiny set of living Shardplate.
  14. What exactly are we supposed to expect of the Heralds in the coming books? I would love to see Taln come to deal with his madness in someway, be reunited with his honorblade and lead men against the fused as he once did, but I doubt that would actually happen. So what can we expect of the Heralds instead? Are they so much of a wildcard that they will hinder Dalinar's quest? Will they help out and assist the Radants? Will they turn and support Odium? (is it even possible for a Herald to do this?) Maybe they'll just exist and not do much, but I highly doubt that. Will Moash/Vyre go around and pick them off one by one? I hope this isn't the case, but who knows. I'm eager to know what you all think and if we have any hints to base our guesses on.
  15. During my recent reread of Oathbringer, I came across the section where Jasnah confronts Ash. Ash was reeling from the death of Jezrien, and it said for the first time in 1000 years Ash feel unconscious . This got me to thinking how different the heralds actually are. At first I thought heralds were normal humans without there honorblades . But they have deeper abilities that make them intriguing . For one. They do not require sleep as we discovered from Ash . They are immortal . When Honor was alive they had a direct conduit to him and didn’t require stormlight. I’m not sure if that persist to this day or if Dalinar can fuel them as Honor representative. But just the fact that they are thousands of years old and don’t require sleep is amazing. Think of this they could theoretically. Master several skills over that length of time . Become surgeons , scholars , metalsmiths for example and have had long enough to prefect the skill to a level of mastery to surpass anyone alive. They also have some level of control of their physical appearance . Jezrein appeared as a feeble old man, but I’m sure if he wanted to he could make himself appear younger and in physically fit shape. Taln reflexes were so fast he could snatch an assasins blow darts out the air . So I imagine it would take a significant overwhealming force to defeat one if the herald had his honorblade and a source of stormlight. Any other observations about the Heralds you guys want to add?? I imagine with 1000 of years to practice their. Surges they know tricks no one else knows .
  16. Hi. I don't know if this question has been asked or theorised before but I was wondering that now Jezerien is dead, shouldn't his honorblade vanish too, or because Jezerien is proper dead, will the blade remain? In the prelude to WoK, after seeing 8 swords, Kalak knows 8 had survived because: "If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished". The term "master" I mean to think the original owner, not the current person wielding the blade. As in, if the current owner died, I wouldn't expect the blade to disapear. So I believed that when Jezerien died, the blade also went, but with Jerzerien proper dying, I'm no longer sure if this is 100% accurate. Side note. I also believe we have not seen the true power of the Honorblades. Kalak also mentions in the prelude to WoK that: "These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades" But, what we have currently seen from an honorblade is, in my opinion, a little underwhelming. So I also believe we have yet to witnesses the full power of an honorblade. Are there any WoB that answer theae questions?
  17. I recently finished listening to Edgedancer and I was really intrigued by the Sleepless we encounter, Arclo. Specifically his very philosophical outlook, as I tender to ponder various philosophical issues as well. I was actually surprised when he mentioned to Lift an obscure philosophical theory that I myself had actually pondered several times, or at least something very similar to it. Namely the idea that whenever someone goes unconscious, they effectively die and a new clone soul comes to inhabit their body once they regain consciousness (for the record, while I admit that I've pondered things similar to this long before reading Edgedancer, I do NOT believe that this is actually true, though it is obviously completely unfalsifiable, but I digress). What struck me is how weird it seemed for him to just randomly mention something like this as literally the first thing he says to her once he sees her again in the alley, because while admittedly it does have some tangential relevance to his own philosophy that he's been developing, it seems more like just a random philosophical factoid he mentions on a whim. So I couldn't help but wonder whether there might be something more too it than that; whether it might be intended to be some kind of foreshadowing or hint relevant to either the current situation or future books. Honestly, I have no idea whether it does or not, but as far as I can tell, there have not been any WoBs asking about it, so I was just wondering what everyone thinks. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head which it might have some kind of relevance to is the Heralds, who each time they die during a Desolation they somehow return to Braize in presumably a completely new clone body, the exact mechanics of this process still being largely a mystery from what I've been able to tell. So might it be the case that the Heralds are themselves in some sense clones as well, both in body and in soul? There is at least some tenuous precedence for people getting new souls in The Emperor's Soul, albeit in a completely difference sense than what would be happening here, so that if nothing else makes me think that this idea is at the very least worth considering. Again, I'm not at all convinced that Sanderson didn't have Arclo mention that purely to further his desired image of him as being a highly abstract and philosophical thinker, but then again, it does seem like a very weird thing to put in there for no reason other than show (though I suppose that considering his species is called the 'Sleepless', that might also explain it). So I'm curious what everyone else thinks about this. Is this simply a strange but ultimately irrelevant philosophical factoid, or do you think there may be more to it than that? I definitely think that Arclo's own philosophy will probably have at least some kind of relevance later on, if only because he tells Lift that he'll be seeing her about it again, but what about this one? Any ideas?
  18. Ok, first of all I'm really sorry if this has been asked before. But I guess more cosmere aware fans can enlighten me Did Radiants used to worship the three shards? Or else why are they 3 depicted in "the" room in Urithuru? Do we know why Odium is represented like he is? Does the pagan thaylen believe in Passions have to do with Odium-Passion? I'm seriously believing it's something that comes from a time when Odium was the human's God... Thanks to anyone that takes some time to help me through this
  19. So, it appears that the whole Hoed mantra thing is Cosmere-significant, and //it's been 6 months since Oathbringer release, but I don't know how the Spoiler rules have changed, etc. I have included someone else's theory in a link below. I don't actually believe that theory, but it contains relevant information: Perhaps being Hoed is related to Savantism somehow?
  20. nale

    In an Interlude Nale encounters Ym. He says I had to look real hard to see your transgression . Which implies Nale can see past transgression like a divination ability. This may be a resonance? Or it may be a function of the 5th ideal . But it appears Nale can look at someone and divine a transgression from the past. As a Skybreaker Law is his province. So if this is not how Nale knew of Ym transgression how else could this be! Let’s discuss this !
  21. Recently, I was looking at a chart of the names of the Heralds and the numbers which corresponded to their names from 1 to 10. One thing caught my eye: the sixth Herald, Shalash (better known as Ash), is associated with the number Shash. Does Ash or the number 6 have any sort of association with the Shash brands for slaves? I don't know if this has been asked before, so if there is already a WoB, please let me know.
  22. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  23. Something I can't not think about is one line from the eight parable of The Way of Kings (in-world). Regardless, I made the trip and—as the astute reader has already concluded—survived it. "The astute reader," just think about that. We already know there's a relationship between the parables of the Way of Kings (in-world) and the Oaths of the Knights Radiant. Forty-one parables on kingship written by Nohadon; forty-one oaths, the Immortal Words and the four individual oaths of the ten orders. Whether the Radiants came before Nohadon and inspired the forty-one parables with their actions and beliefs, or the first Radiant spren were attracted to the general concepts of the parables and used themas the basis of their Nahel bonds is still murky to me. (We know from Oathbringer (novel) that Nohadon was a Surgebinder, so I lean towards the former.) Nevertheless, I think there is a hidden message or code in the Way of Kings (in-world). We know the Vanrial protected the Way of Kings (in-world) for centuries. Centuries. We know that civilization started over after each Desolation. At the end of Way of Kings (novel), Talenel, or the man presented to be Talenel, states "You will have forgotten much, following the destruction of the times past." Jasnah and others also mention that the abrupt loss of knowledge after each Desolation: medical science, engineering, metallurgy, etc. But the Vanrial chose to save Nohadon's treatise on government, over technical, medical, or scientific texts. The real question: What could so important that following an apocalyptic destruction and worldwide devastation you chose to retreat from civilization with some classical texts? A possible question: the texts are the key to preventing the next and final apocalyptic destruction and worldwide devastation. There is a very good reason that Brandon hasn't let Shallan read a copy of the Way of Kings (in-world). Why? Because she'll see something in it. Something that Dalinar can't see because he's just started to learn to read, something the Kholin female scribes can't see because the book is considered heretical Alethi society, something the ardents can't see because they're not Radiants. A pattern. Shallan already leads a merry band of misfits, eventually, she will get cocky and get some killed because of overconfidence, arrogance, neglect, etc. Dalinar, the changed man, will not reprimand her, he'll give her something to read to help her understand the right way to lead others. The most important words a man can read. Dalinar will give her a copy of the Way of Kings (in-world) as a sort of independent reading assignment and ask her to report on what she's learned every few days. Shallan will start reading and unconsciously use Lightweaving to bring the words to life. To see Nohadon walk to Urithiru, to watch the spindly man carry the boulder, etc. The Lightweaving, plus Shallan's Memory plus Stormlight plus a radiant spren will unlock something. The obvious answer is the true history of the Last Desolation, but I don't think it's that. I think it will be the true history of the Heralds. I believe that Nohadon based the parables of the Way of Kings (in-world) on the actions, beliefs, and ideals of the Heralds. The first protectors of Roshar. This makes more sense to me than anything. All of the Heralds are too damaged or reluctant to speak about themselves, so I think Nohadon's memories of them are encoded in the Way of Kings (in-world), essentially like a Cognitive Fabrial. This also solves the chicken and egg problem of the parables of Way of Kings and the oaths of the Knights Radiant. The parables are based on the Heralds, and the parables attracted the first Radiant spren who bonded individuals who acted in alignment with the parables. Plus, this would fill in the blanks of why the first Radiants begged the Heralds to be the Patrons of their respective orders. The Heralds were more than immortals with abilities like them, they were their idols, their idealized versions of themselves. To recap, or TLDR: there's a secret in Nohadon's Way of Kings, the secret is the history of the Heralds, and the parables of the Way of Kings are based on the Heralds, not Nohadon's musings on kingship.
  24. By now, we know it is possible to actually kill the Heralds and not just kill them through the use of a dagger from Odium's investiture and that Moash has been entrusted with it along with Jezrien's Honorblade. But it kind of strikes me as unusual that they only armed him with the honorblade after he has already murdered Jezrien. Is there any implication with him having it while he tried to kill the herald? I know that killing Jezrien is meant to be seen as more of a test of his loyalty/passion, but what if it wasn't an actual test but a requirement? What if they have a plan with Moash? One that might possibly involve killing all of the heralds and bonding with all of their honorblades? We already have a WoB that says a Radiant CAN bond with an honorblade, therefore giving him access to additional surges or making his surges a bit stronger if he has the honorblade of his own order. Can you imagine how powerful one man can become if he bonds with all ten of the honorblades? Wouldn't that make him the closest one to actually becoming Honor? What if this is Odium's plan for him all along? To have Moash gather all of the honorblades, then gather all of the splinters. Only now, he would become a twisted version of Honor, maybe Loyalty? Honoring his debt of gratitude from Odium? Seems to me that Moash's whole journey focuses about his revenge and lack of honor (betraying Kaladin). Is he fated to realize his mistakes and actually become the new shard of Honor? Not to mention also that the original Parshendi were also from Honor. What if they were working against Odium to restore their old god? What do you guys think?
  25. I think the dagger Moash uses does not 'kill' the herald so much as it somehow traps their soul (identity?) inside the gem on the hilt. From the book: Was it done this way to keep the current state of the Oathpact intact? The other Heralds POV we get mentions they sense the other's loss Does this means that they could somehow be freed from the gem later, rescuing/restoring them? Naturally, if any of this is true, I think it's possible we may see up to an additional 9 versions of such daggers with the appropriate gemstone on the hilt. Thoughts?