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Found 223 results

  1. So, something I've wondered about since I read RoW is what has happened to the Honorblades, and what will happen with them going forward. Based on Dalinar's encounter with Ishar, it's strongly implied that he attacked the Shin and took the Honorblades from them. He may have only recovered his own, so we don't know that he has all the missing ones. But that means that 6-7 of the Honorblades are either in the possession of the Shin or Ishar's forces, or split between them. Nale has his, Moash has the WindRunner blade, and we still don't know what happened to the StoneWard blade. Since Kaladin and Szeth are headed to Shinovar in book five, it's more or less guaranteed that more information about the other blades Shinovar protected all those years will come out. What really happened to them, where they are, who has them, we don't yet know. But we will hopefully find out. What I'd like to ask/postulate, is what will happen if they honorblades are recovered by the radiants? If the desolations truly end after book 5, then there won't be the same kind of need for them anymore. The desolations will be done. The heralds my eventually recover, but who knows what state they'll be in. And as a certain honorspren said and Szeth has proven, the honorblades are dangerous. Without any kind of oath restricting the actions of the ones holding them, they can be used to terrible effect. Of course, some of the honorblades could still be useful. The blades could be used to train people in the surges of that blade's corresponding order, which would be useful in times when there aren't many radiants of that particular order, such as BondSmiths. Or ElseCallers at the present time. So the honorblades could still be very useful, but also very risky. This brings me to my conclusion. I think the honorblades should be destroyed. They were forged from Honor's soul, and Vorenism likely considers them holy artifacts, but with the danger they represent and the need for them greatly diminished, they should probably be disposed of. The way to do this, of course, is with Knightblood. If that sword is capable of damaging one of the honorblades, then it should be capable of destroying them. It would be tricky, given how Knightblood works, but it should still be possible. Of course hiding them or locking them away is an option, but the Shin tried that. And while they were successful for a long time, the blades were ultimately recovered by insane heralds who have done Adolnasium only knows what with them. That's why I think the honorblades should be destroyed. What do you think?
  2. Well, greetings to the Shard. Today I was suddenly struck by realisation so strong that I brought my thoughts about it here. A note: English is not my native language, therefore sometimes I probably will sound like Huio speaking Alethi; please forgive my occasional mistakes. So, what's this all about? I looked on Divine Attributes, then looked on Heralds, and I saw this: most Heralds lost their so-called Primary Attribute, but kept their Secondary Attribute. Nale is unjust and even psychopathic, but he's definitely very confident in his own motivations and actions (at least when there's no Lift, Szeth or Dalinar around). I'm not sure about Shalash's creativity, but her obsession with destroying Heralds depicting art sounds to me like something opposite to creativity. However, she's very honest wuth herself and others about Heralds' - and her own - guilt and responsibility for their lie. Kalak is not resolute in any way: we saw him in RoW as totally indecisive person, and he's getting worse. But he's still a builder - at least he built Sons of Honor IIRC. Ishar is claiming godhood and making abominations, so, I think, he's not counting as pious. But is he guiding? Yes; we saw him guiding Nale and Kalak to killing potential Surgebinders, and he possibly led Heralds to betrayal of Oathpact. If Taravangian is right, and Dova is really Battar in disguise, we see another example of madness: she cares about people and Desolations, but suggesting Death Rattles is not wise at all, rather quite opposite. I'm still not for 100% on Chanarach Davar side, but if it's true...well, we see probably obedient, but not so brave woman. About other Heralds I have doubts or no important information about their madness. What do you think?
  3. We don't know the gritty details of the torture that heralds go through on Braize, do we? I was randomly wondering about that and thought that perhaps years of torture would have a two-fold benefit for odium. Not only does it make heralds break to start another desolation, but can we also think of it as advanced "training" for Roshar's most powerful super soldiers? We know Odium is preparing for a greater war. Perhaps he hopes to use the heralds to fight somehow. I could be way off base here but I'm coming from a POV of trying to understand Odium's great plan. I don't think he is necessarily evil, or if he is, evil for the sake of being evil - I believe he is simply trying to prepare for a conflict so great that he considers much of roshar and its people to be disposable in order to fulfill a greater plan. This could be why Taravangian thought that surrendering to odium was his best hope. Perhaps he saw that Roshar was potentially doomed, argued to save just his own city, and realized that everybody else would be screwed because of an impending war. I think this could add depth to Odium's character/intent. Perhaps there is a good reason an extreme utilitarian took up the shard: maybe odium truly thinks that, in contrast to "journey before destination," the best outcome requires immense sacrifice to have an army capable of handling what is yet to come. Of course, we know his other goal is to be the only shard remaining, so I'm not sure how to reconcile that. Maybe he fears an assault from other shards on roshar / his forces that, if successful, could take him down. Perhaps Rayse simply intended to protect himself at all costs, and Taravangian simply saved what he could. Perhaps this is another reason why Hoid wants Odium bound to Roshar. What if an invasion force came to try and destroy him or the planet to avoid his further conquering? I could see that uniting the people's of Roshar, humans, singers, heralds, and fused alike. Thoughts? Ik I'm all over the place but I always like to read what people think, especially if they can easily debunk me, or spawn their own theories instead
  4. This is a theory I've been chewing on for a while but haven't wanted to post because I haven't had the time to put all the pieces together. Anyway, here goes: SPOILERS THROUGH RHYTHM OF WAR (I think) TLDR Ba Ado Mishram was the child of Honor and Cultivation, the common ground between singers and spren. The Heralds communed with her to some degree, perhaps tricking or trading with her, and she helped them access the Surges. This violated the agreement between the human refugees that bound them in Shinovar and forbade them to use the Surges (in the eyes of the singers at least) - and was the initial spren betrayal the Fused speak of. In retaliation, the singers went to Odium and became the Fused, sparking the first Desolation. The Heralds went to Honor and forged the Oathpact to enable them to fight the Fused and seal them in Braize. In the course of the war, the Fused were able to help Odium Unmake Mishram into Ba Ado Mishram. This is the singer betrayal the spren speak of, which led to many spren mimicing what Honor had done with the Heralds, and the beginning of the Radiants. Cultivation and Honor then had another child, this time made to represent the common ground between humans and spren - Mishram's younger Sibling. A lot of the evidence I've based this on from the text is drawn from the two in-world myths in the title, 'Queen Tsa and the cleverest of the three moons' and 'The Girl Who Looked Up". If you want to get into the weeds, keep reading. Myths of Roshar Firstly, we need to be establish the connection between these two tales, so let's look at what both of the myths are about: The tale of Queen Tsa is a story about a woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling to the heavens. She is aware that going to the heavens is forbidden for mortals, but still she ascends (by tricking the green moon Mishim to trade places with her). She eventually returns to the world, however she is carrying the child of Nomon, the blue moon god of her people. Her son bears the "mantle of the heavens" and she believes he will lead her people to glory. The tale of The Girl Who Looked Up is a story about a young woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling beyond the Wall. She is aware that going beyond the Wall is forbidden for her people, but still she ascends. She looks over the wall to and sees God's Light. She returns to the world, but first she steals a piece of God's Own Light and flees back home with it. As a result, the storms start coming - but her people now have Light. My conclusion is probably quite obvious by now... Queen Tsa is The Girl Who Looked Up Or, at least, the two represent the same person/people. While Queen Tsa may be an actual historical figure in Roshar, it's important to remember that Hoid - ancient, magical Hoid - is the one telling the tale.. And he's not above exercising artistic license when he wants to. Hoid is also the teller of the second iteration of the Girl Who Looked Up not long after this scene, the version which includes the Girl's people having "light renewed." (Oathbringer, 82) If that doesn't convince you, here are a few of the symbolic ties between Tsa and the Girl. i) Looking Up Like the Girl, Tsa quite literally spends her story looking up at the heavens and hatching her scheme to get there: she is literally a girl who looks up. Both Tsa and the Girl are warned against their quest: The Queen herself says that all know the eyes of mortals would burn at the sights, their minds run mad at the language of the heavens. The Girl questions several people on the Wall and is told: "There is a wall. Do not go beyond it, or you shall die.” (Oathbringer, 25) Both the Girl and the Queen reach for the sky: The Girl by climbing the "high, terrible wall stretching toward the moons. Blocking the sky..." (Oathbringer, 25) The Queen by designing "high towers for her city, built to reach ever upward, grasping toward the sky." (Oathbringer, 67) ii) Turning White In the myth of the Girl at the point at which she starts climbing the Wall, Shallan notices that the Girl's hair is white, and is unsure if it had always been. Brandon has stated there is some significance to this. In the story of Tsa, the Queen is represented in Hoid's smoke by a white tower while Mishim is represented by a green moon. Once they trade places however, Shallan notes that: "the moon had become white, and the single straight tower he made by swiping up in the smoke was instead pale green." (Oathbringer, 67) In both stories, the transition/appearance of white occurs after the protagonist sets out on their journey to the other side. iii) The Red Scarf In the myth of the Girl, we are told: "a vibrant red scarf grew around the girl’s neck, twin tails extending far behind her". (Oathbringer, 25) The significance of this scarf is hard to see until you look into the history of the scarf itself. It originated in Ancient Egypt and was worn by Queen Nefertiti. I think this is meant to draw yet another symbolic connection between the Girl and Queen Tsa, as she too wears the mantle of a Queen. As for the colour red, more on that later.* Lastly, when Shallan finds Hoid telling the story of Queen Tsa and the three moons in Kholinar: "He was dressed, strangely, in a soldier’s uniform—Sadeas’s livery, with the coat unbuttoned and a colored scarf around his neck." (Oathbringer, 67) iv) The Crime Both the Girl and the Queen commit a crime (or at least something that is viewed in world as morally wrong) once they reach the other side. The Queen breaks her promise not to look upon the sights of the heavens: "Tsa! Your word is broken!" (Oathbringer, 67) The Girl steals a piece of God's Light. v) The Light Both return home with a keepsake from the other side. The Girl returns to her village with the piece of God's Light, bringing with her the storms. We are told that the Light once taken could not be put back and that "each storm brought light renewed" and [of her people] "now they could see". In other words, her people now had Light eternal thanks to her gambit. The Queen carries a child of Nomon, one of the gods, who bears the "mantle of the heavens". The story elaborates that all descendants of this son bear this mantle (the blue skin) - or you could say all of her people now bear the mantle of the heavens. Symbolically, heaven's mantle usually refers to the stars themselves - or starlight. So all of her people now bear the Light of the heavens after her gambit. So if these two stories are about the same characters and events, what are they about? Who do they represent? We know of the history of the human refugees led by the Heralds, who were bound in Shinovar and likely warned against tampering with the Surges after the destruction of their home planet. We know that the First Desolation was sparked by some sort of betrayal by the spren involving the humans: "The betrayal of spren has brought us here/They gave their Surges to human heirs" (Words of Radiance, 28) Who is Queen Tsa/The Girl representing? What about Mishim, God's Light, the child of Nomon and Tsa? The Heralds & Ba Ado Mishram 1) The people of Tsa's kingdom = the people of the village = human refugees from Ashyn The Village and the world are both the strictly designated areas of the denizens of Tsa and the Girl's world, and they are forbidden to leave it. From what we know of the original Ashynite refugees, this is exactly what Shinovar was to them: humans were supposed to stay in the grassy, earth-like area designed for them - to this day the Shin curse stonewalkers ( the rest of Roshar is basically stone and crem). Another parallel is found in the fact that the people in the Girl's village lived in darkness - there was no Light. In much the same way, Shinovar is known to have no spren, and the ancient human refugees had no bonds to Rosharan spren - no Investiture - no Light. However, this story is not purely a physical one - much like the history of Roshar was not. 2) The City/World = The Village = Shinovar/the minds of men Queen Tsa's home city/the whole world parallels the village the girl lives in: the Village is described as being in the shadow of the great Wall - one villager says it's not a wall: "That’s just the way the sky is over there.” (Oathbringer, 25) The Wall is so huge the villagers almost seem to live beneath it, in the same way Tsa and her people live literally below the heavens. And while the humans did literally expand out of Shinovar into Roshar, but the rest of the tale - the theft of Light, the mantle of the heavens - doesn't quite add up with any purely physical objects in Rosharan history. We have known since Words of Radiance that the ancient singers felt the spren had betrayed them. This has been expanded on in subsequent books as we know the singers manipulated the Surges - using Stoneshaping etc. - and had some sort of bonds with the spren like all native Rosharan life. That ancient betrayal that sparked the war, and a cycle of betrayals. The spren betrayal, in the listener's words was that: "They gave their Surges to human heirs" (Words of Radiance, 28) We also know how spren bonds work now - human minds are linked to spren, which pulls them into the Physical Realm through the Connection. It is a meeting of minds that grants spren presence in the Physical Realm in exchange for granting humans Surges. This is why I believe the darkness the people of the Girl's village is representative of Cognitive darkness - the humans had no access to the Surges, to Stormlight - they lived in darkness. For further evidence we can look to the singers in this tale. 3) The creatures who lived beyond the Wall = the singers "She climbed down the steps...she hid among the creatures who lived on this side." (Oathbringer, 82) There are creatures who live beyond the wall, in "God's Light" (Oathbringer, 82) unlike the Girl's people living in the land of shadows. On the Physical level, this is accurate with what we know of Rosharan history - the ancient singers lived in Roshar, filled with spren and Investiture while the humans lived in earth-like Shinovar. It also tallies with what we've heard about the bonds between men and spren vs those between singers and spren.These realms are meant to represent the minds of men and singers respectively: at this point in time, humans had no Connection to the spren of Roshar - there was a barrier between their minds and those of the spren. Singers however, cannot provide what the humans can: The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men (Words of Radiance, 32) According to this, the ancient spren betrayed the singers because singers minds were too close to their realm (Shadesmar), and the sapient spren desired more: human connection. Much as we are told that Mishim "doesn’t want to be in the sky" and longs to come down among mortals and do all the things "she had watched from afar" (Oathbringer, 67). As for Nomon, in the tale we see how Mishim's brothers enjoy the company of Tsa, in a way they never seemed to with Mishim. This seems to parallel the sentiments of the singers as they realise the humans - like Queen Tsa - have more to offer the spren than they do; this suggests Nomon himself represents the spren. As for Mishim...more on that later/ 4) Queen Tsa = The Girl Who Looked Up = The Heralds Now, if the setting is ancient Shinovar then while the Girl/Queen of the people could represent an actual queen, she more likely represents the leaders of the humans living in Shinovar: the Heralds. After all, it is the Girl who is responsible for stealing the piece of God's Light, the coming of the storms, and "tearing down the wall" (Oathbringer, 25). In the RoW Nale visions, we see what is presumably the forging of the Oathpact (as it is the earliest vision). In it, Jezrien and Ishar invite Nale to take some charge, a duty that he accepts with honor - the Oathpact. Jezrien claims, "We will fix what we've broken." (Rhythm of War, 47) This seems to indicate that Jezrien and Ishar - at least - were responsible for starting the Desolations. We also infer that Nale was opposed to whatever Jezrien and Ishar did that "broke" something and started the war, as Jezrien claims he was correct all along. Let's combine this with what we already know about the start of the Desolations: 1) The spren betrayed the singers by giving their "Surges to human heirs" 2) The humans betrayed the singers in some way involving the spren "they were a people forlorn, without a home...their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." (Oathbringer, 111) 3) Some of the Heralds were responsible for breaking something, which started the Desolations So what did the ancient humans break? We know the Heralds were their leaders, and that squares with Jezrien's reference to what they broke when talking to Nale. In the story of the Girl, she steals a piece of God's Light. This leads to the breaking of the wall, the barrier between the land of shadows and the land of Light - and the Storms come as a punishment. It seems that the Heralds - the ancient humans - violated their agreement, they broke their word. "Tsa! Your word is broken!" (Oathbringer, 67) The Heralds broke their word by (in the eyes of the Fused) stealing the spren/Surges, breaking the barrier between men and spren and, which led to the Desolations. The Girl crossed the barrier between lands and stole Light, which led to the Wall being torn down and the Storms coming as punishment. After breaking their Pact with the singers, Jezrien and Ishar hatched a plan to forge a new one that might fix what they had ruined.= 5) The Sky = Beyond the Wall = Roshar/Shadesmar It follows that the Heavens and the land beyond the Wall are one and the same. The land beyond the Wall is illuminated by God's Light, which seems to tally with the heavens which are lit by starlight - and also the presence of the gods Nomon and Salas. 6) Tsa & Nomon's Child = The Piece of God's Light = Surges Both the Girl and the Queen journey to the 'Other Side' and return with something: the Girl steals a piece of God's Light, which she brings to her people providing Light eternal - "each storm brought light renewed, for it could never be put back, now that it had been taken." (Oathbringer, 82) The Queen returns to her land pregnant with Nomon's child, and gives birth to a son who will lead her people. He is said to bear "the mantle of the heavens" meaning the blue skin of Natanatan which mimics the blue light of Nomon's moon. In the story, Nomon is a god however; that blue light is God's light, one that his son carries. We are also told that "that is why to this day, the people of Natanatan have skin of a faintly blue shade.": Queen Tsa's people bear God's Light to this day. The key difference between the two tales is how this is obtained: the Girl steals a piece of God's Light, whereas Nomon seems to have delighted in Tsa's company - that was no theft. The only victim in the tale of Tsa is Mishim; she is the one who is tricked by Queen Tsa, she is the one who experiences "Loss." (Oathbringer, 67) She experiences the loss of "Nomon's kindness" (Oathbringer, 67): the loss of her bond with her brothers. To experience loss is to have something taken away: the Girl steals God's Light; the Queen steals God's affection. So what is God's Light? What is this thing that The Girl/Tsa/the Heralds stole? It's pretty clear, given what Light is in the real (cosmere) world - Investiture. Bonds. Or, as a Rosharan might say, Surges. These two stories - taken as one tale about the Heralds - rhyme very well with in-world canon we know, which I alluded to earlier. Let's take the two stories, strip them of their figurative facade and see what we're left with. To recap: Queen Tsa = The Girl = The Heralds The World = The Village/land of shadows = Shinovar/minds of men creatures beyond the wall = ? = singers Nomon = God's Light = spren Nomon's son = Piece of God's Light = Surges Storms = Desolations Mishim = ? = ? So, the Heralds lived and led the humans Shinovar, and were strictly forbidden from venturing beyond Shinovar and their minds from Connecting with spren and accessing Surges. Despite the warnings of some of their peers, the Heralds decide to breach the barrier between men and spren. They trick Mishim (?) into helping them access the Surges. Mishim feels betrayed by the Heralds, and claims that they broke their word. The damage is done, and the barrier between the minds of men and the spren is broken. The Desolations start as a result of this. However, every Desolation brings back the light renewed* (in this case I believe it alludes to the fact that the Heralds return with each Desolation/storm). So who is Mishim in the cosmere, this mysterious being that allowed the Heralds to access the Surges (a piece of God's Light)? Where is she in the story of the Girl Who Looked Up? We know that Mishim was the victim of loss in Tsa's story, so we simply have to look for a similar victim in the Girl's story: who did the Girl steal God's Light from? There are 2 answers to that question. 1) God's Light ("girl in the scarves slipping up to the grand source of light, then breaking off a little piece in her hand." (Oathbringer, 82) 2) The creatures beyond the Wall (aka the singers) The second is the easiest to comprehend: it fits with what we know of the lore. The Heralds/ancient humans stole (in the eyes of the singers) the Surges/Connection to Rosharan spren from the ancient singers - this is the betrayal that started the Desolations. It also works if we insert the singers in the tale of Tsa: Mishim (the singer) is jealous of Tsa's connection with her brothers Nomon and Salas: "‘Feasting?’ Her siblings had never feasted with her before." (Oathbringer, 67) "‘Songs?’ Her siblings had never sung with her before." (Oathbringer, 67) " knew another mortal emotion. Loss." (Oathbringer, 67) Mishim is jealous of and betrayed by the human Tsa's Connection with Nomon in the same way the singers are jealous of and betrayed by humans Connection to spren, whose "meat is men" . Tsa offers Nomon companionship that Mishim cannot, singing and feasting with him - just as the humans offer what the singers cannot: "We can't provide what the humans lend" (Words of Radiance, 32) The first is a bit murkier, but also makes sense with cosmere mechanics. You might ask how you can steal from a being made of God's Light, or how a piece of that being could grant one Surges. But we do have sapient beings made of 'God's Light' (Investiture), with whom a Connection can grant access to Surgebinding: spren. How can these two answers coexist? How can the Heralds have taken the Connection to Rosharan spren from a spren and taken it from the singers? Simple: Mishim was a spren who represented the Connection between the singers and the spren. We know that such spren can exist from Rhythm of War, because that is exactly what the Sibling is: "My song...the common ground, the Sibling said. Between humans and spren. That is … that is why I was created." (Rhythm of War, 110) The Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation, made to be the emulsifier between humans and spren. If Honor and Cultivation created such a being for the humans, is it not possible that they did the same aeons before? Either that, or they found the spren already in existence - the singers being native to Roshar, it is possible that such a spren arose naturally. If it didn't, if this mysterious elder spren was indeed born of Honor and Cultivation, then the spren made by Honor and Cultivation to bridge the gap between spren and humans is not the only child - he is the Sibling. A last piece of evidence - the chapter with the tale of Queen Tsa is titled 'Mishim' and begins with this epigraph: "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact." (Oathbringer, 67) We know now that this was the Sibling's Bondsmith, which seems appropriate for a chapter revealing lore about the character I believe to have been its predecessor. Let's turn back to the tale of Tsa and apply this new knowledge: at the end of the story, Mishim hears a new song which she recognises as the song of Nomon's child with Tsa . She feels loss - a spren that represents the Connection between singers and spren experiences the loss of light at the hands of the humans. This works perfectly as symbolism for the singers ancient loss and betrayal. However, it still leaves us with one final question: who is/was Mishim? Who was this great spren of Connection, that represented the Connection of the minds of the entire singer species to the spren? Hmmmm.... "Ba-Ado-Mishram...Connected herself to the entire singer species." (Rhythm of War, 73) "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people," (Oathbringer, 80) 7) Mishram = Mishim The first and most obvious connection here is the similarity of the two names Mishim/Mishram. Beyond this, let's look at everything we know about Ba Ado Mishram from the books: i) The Heralds know Ba Ado Mishram personally: "please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren." (Rhythm of War, 97) NOTE: Kalak calls her 'Mishram', not 'Ba Ado Mishram' as the Fused, Sja-Anat and other Voidspren do. ii) She is consistently described as crafty/cunning/intelligent: "Ba-Ado-Mishram, who had granted forms to the singers during the False Desolation—were crafty and conniving." (Rhythm of War, I-2) "She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces" (Oathbringer, 106) iii) She is trapped in a prison (the gem) and presumably wants to escape. Now lets look at how Mishim, the green moon is described: i) "the third moon is the cleverest." (Oathbringer, 35) ii) "she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35) iii) "everybody knows that Mishim—the third moon—is the most clever and wily of the moons.” (Oathbringer, 35) iv) "Mishim is always looking for a chance to escape her duty.” (Oathbringer, 67) v) “Everyone knows that Mishim is the cleverest of the three moons." (Oathbringer, 67) vi) "The queen was pious, but the moon was crafty." (Oathbringer, 67) [NOTE: Ishar is famously pious, and less famously crafty] vii) “As always, Mishim was hatching a scheme." (Oathbringer, 67) I find it too much of a coincidence that two characters with such similar names are consistently described with the same language. Furthermore, the characterisation of Mishim as a kind of rebel fits with what we know of Ba Ado Mishram, who led the singers in the False Desolation without Odium and the Voidspren. It also explains how and why Ba Ado Mishram was able to Connect herself to the minds of the entire singer species during the False Desolation. Her having been the spren of Connection between singers and spren, it makes sense that she would retain this capacity - and that binding her in the way they did would have some adverse effects on the singers: "Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too." (Rhythm of War, 49) "By capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram—locking her in a gemstone—humankind had stolen the minds of the singers in ancient times." (Rhythm of War, 24) Even the language of the Recreance in this quote seems to echo the myth of the Girl: humans stole God's Light from the minds of the singers. And Mishram, "though still crafty, has never again left her place." (Oathbringer, 67) Conclusion So that's my theory. Ba Ado Mishram - once called Mishram - was a spren who represented the common ground between singers and spren. The Heralds communed with her to some degree, perhaps tricking her, and this let them access the Surges. This act violated the agreement between the singers and the human refugees (in the eyes of the singers at least) - this was the initial spren betrayal the Fused speak of. In retaliation, the singers went to Odium and became the Fused, sparking the first Desolation. The Heralds in turn went to Honor and forged the Oathpact to enable them to fight the Fused and seal them in Braize. During the course of the war, Odium was able to Unmake Mishram, God's Own Light, into Bad Ado Mishram. This is the great singer betrayal that the spren speak of, that led to many spren mimicing what Honor had done with the Heralds, and the beginning of the Radiants. Finally, it is possible that Mishram was actually the first born child of Cultivation and Honor, created specifically to represent the bond between singers and spren. Centuries later, when the spren started making human Surgenbinders, Ishar came to Honor to help force order upon them (making the Radiant orders). At this point, Cultivation and Honor had another child, this time made to represent the common ground between humans and spren. They made the Sibling. If you made it this far thanks for reading, can't believe I actually typed this whole essay and someone actually read it. Excited for y'all to tear holes in it it!
  5. We know since the prologue of WoK that the heralds broke the oathpact and abandoned Taln in braize as the sole bearer of the oathpact. That was 4 thousand years ago and until Moash kills Jezrien for good, we don’t know if any of the heralds have been “killed” which would send them back to braize. Is it plausible that any of them have died gone back to braize and then returned to roshar without affecting the oathpact or interacting with Taln? Do you guys think the heralds go to braize when they die now, and do y’all think they were sent to braize when they died before the oathpact or was the oathpact the only things connecting them to braize? Edit: I have answered my own question or at least found some evidence: From Oathbringer Chapter 38: “ ‘HE FINALLY BROKE’ the storm father said. ‘HE HAS JOINED THE NINE WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION’”
  6. So what do we actually know about what went down in Ashyn? All Stormlight Archive spoilers: Feel free to let me know if I just need to re-read SA to refresh my brain on the details haha
  7. Did Ishar forge the Oathpact himself with the powers he recieved from Honour, or did Honour forge the Oathpact? Also, did Ishar create the Nahel bond, and if he did, did he do it around the same time?
  8. Someone's probably noticed this before, but I'll mention it in case it hasn't been. For the official Herald portraits, Chanarach doesn't have her safehand covered. Anyone have any idea why this would be the case in setting? The other 3 portraits of female Heralds only their left hand covered, either by a sleeve or a glove, so we know that the custom was being followed by the artists. I kind of want to ask Peter or Brandon if this was deliberate. (copied from Coppermind)
  9. I am rereading Way of Kings and something in the prelude unsettled me. In the Prelude there were 7 honor blades, if we add Taln's and Kelek's blades that would make them 9, where is the last one?
  10. So, does anyone else thinks that Gavilar wasn't actually looking towards bringing something like Everstorm, but just looking to free all singers from their bondage? As we know Restares is Kelek who, from the epigraphs, knew about the effect of Ba-ado-Mishram's imprisonment on Roshar and perhaps guessed that Radiants gave up their powers for this reason (probably) as they felt guilty for causing such drastic change to Roshar and its native population. So he decided to restore the singers and the only way to do that was to bring back Taln from Braize, thereby freeing fused and suing for peace. He had anti-voidlight already prepared and ready to destroy fused as a backup incase they don't work with him. It's such a marvel that we still can't figure out what Gavilar wanted. While he was an asshole towards his family, may be here he wanted to do something good. What do you people think?
  11. Hi, I'm new here and to anything online regarding the Cosmere. If these have been answered, please still let me know because I'm so curious. 1) If shards created the planets mirroring the original, how did the planets and their inhabitants without shards come to be? 2) The original planet that the shards mirror is not known. Hoid mentions dogs which I don't recall being in any Cosmere books. Have I missed the any mention of dogs? 3) In Shadows of Silence is the spiritual realm overlapping the physical? If so, does gold hold a specific investiture that wards the dead (harm them)? 4) Why don't the heralds inhabit a physical body like the fused do? 5) Since the fused inhabit a body, does that mean that they can go off world, unlike the harolds? 6) If the Shards left the worlds would the same lore and investitures exist? 7) Would the Lopen and Wax be best friends, or instantly weary of eachother? 8) MY MOST PERTINANT QUESTION: Are there any organizations, dragons, beings, or people, that are trying to gather the shards and put Adonalsium back together?
  12. Some people have theorized that some of our Radiants will replace the current Heralds and re-forge the Oathpact. If so, I have a disturbing suspicion: Kaladin will eventually become the only Herald who doesn't break (he might break during the next few Desolations, but not later), and the other new Heralds will eventually be tempted to pin the whole Oathpact on Kaladin, as the original Heralds pinned it on Taln. I know, Kaladin has tried to give up before, but that is because he is more tormented than most Radiants. He would go to Braize with a lot more experience bearing up under suffering than the others.
  13. In the prologue to book 5 where we see events surrounding Gavilars death from his own viewpoint, the Stormfather cries out «A Herald… A Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…» which herald is this? The only herald we know to be dead is Jez isn’t it? We know it isn’t Shalash (probably the one the other heralds refer to when saying «we saw her handywork» in the study with Gavilar). Many of the others are known to be alive in book 4; so who died during the assasination? Does anybody know or have any thoughts?
  14. In the prologue to book 5 where we see events surrounding Gavilars death from his own viewpoint, the Stormfather cries out «A Herald… A Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…» which herald is this? The only herald we know to be dead is Jez isn’t it? We know it isn’t Shalash (probably the one the other heralds refer to when saying «we saw her handywork» in the study with Gavilar). Many of the others are known to be alive in book 4; so who died during the assasination? Does anybody know or have any thoughts?
  15. Hi all! Thought I would run this one by you, What if the Ten Fools (three of which we have names for) are real, and what if they are creations of Whimsy? Although we really know nothing at all about the Shard Whimsy, I feel that this is right up their alley- Honor creates his ten Heralds, and Whimsy sees their opportunity to parody these solemn and epically heroic individuals. Whimsy creates their own ten highly invested cognitive shadows, each of whom bears a comedic flaw in contrast to the mighty attributes of the Heralds. I am in love with the idea of these ten immortal, super invested, interstellar jesters. Spreading Whimsy, but not being all that helpful to the grand scheme of things. My ambition is to someday put this theory to Brandon to get his views on whether this has any merit. In the meantime, I really wanted to share it with you all! Thanks gang, stay silly
  16. I think at this point, we've all heard the "Shallan's mother was Chanarach theory". If you hadn't the main points of evidence gathered up through RoW were: Appearances. Most notably, the physical similarities between the released images of Chana and Shallan are also pretty obvious. Process of elimination. Sanderson has said that most (possibly all) of the modern heralds were mentioned on page in WoK, and we've found most of them. Kalak, Shallash, Jezerin, and Nale are obvious. Battar is Dova, and Paliah was confirmed as the ardent in the Palanaeum. I am fairly convinced Lyss is Vedel. Chana has no other good candidates. The Davar household is full of more secrets than Kelsier. Sh*t was clearly going down there, with everyone from Hoid to the Unmade to the Knights of Honor getting involved. Personality. Chana should be acting as an inversion of brave/obedient, which Shallan's mother fits with. The might also be something to the mental troubles of Shallan and her siblings also (WoB) having some magical elements, almost like the herald's insanity. It might just be the UnMade, but it might not be... Overall, I thought it was an interesting theory, but more on the tinfoil-side. However, I think the just released Stromlight 5 Prologue reveals some info that blew my mind, and I starting to get on board. First, and more simply, we get on page confirmation that Chana does have bright real hair (previous evidence was "in-universe" and could have been inaccurate). This really reinforces Chana's red hair, and draws an obvious connection to some of the only other (non-horneater) gingers, the Davars. Chana being a redhead is also important enough to emphasize as canon, so unless it's a red (lol) herring, it should be relevant. Before I go into the second, I want to shout out this theory (@teknopathetic), since the reveals are basically supporting evidence for the main idea laid out here. TLDR: Chana is Shallan's mother, Shallan killed Chana and sent her back to Braize. Channa later breaks and releases the Oathpact/Taln. So we get this in released Prologue: So, one of the heralds dies the same day as Gavilar and the Stormfather (somehow?) covers it up. The phrasing, particularly the commentary "The Oathpact" suggests to me that this was 'return-to-Braize' died, and not perma-killed a la Jezerin by Moash. All this explains how/why Taln came back to Roshar after the Battle of the Tower. One of the Heralds returned to Braize, and then held out ~6 years until they broke, which released them and Taln back to Roshar. What's even more interesting is that Gavilar and the mystery Hearld die in 1167. The year Shallan kills her mother? 1167.
  17. Like many people, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the SA5 prologue since it was released. I have a lot of thoughts about it, but one that I want to focus on is the words that Gavilar says as potential oaths. The words Gavilar tries that the "Stormfather" dismisses are: "I swear this oath: to serve Honor and the land of Roshar as its Herald. Better than these did.” “If I should die, then I would do so having lived my life right. It is not the destination that matters, but how one arrives there." And then we get this moment: This immediately struck me as odd. If Gavilar is interacting with the Stormfather, his oaths should be similar to Dalinar's. I am assuming that Gavilar is already aware of the First Oath, as this seems to be reasonably common knowledge during the modern era. So we should be comparing these words to the Second Oath of the Bondsmiths. Dalinar’s second oath is “I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.” In what way is “Give it to me. Now. I need it” almost this? The answer of course is that it isn’t, not at all. But Gavilar does not think he is becoming a Bondsmith, or even a Radiant. He thinks he is becoming a Herald. Is he right? I think he might be. We do not know the mechanism by which the Heralds became Heralds, but given this was a pact with Honor, the swearing of some form of oath is almost certainly part of it. What Dalinar does is swear to behave in a particular way, and that appears to be the same for most Radiants. The words that Gavilar is “close” with however, is a demand to take a particular position. Given what is required of the Heralds, an honourable being like Tanavast would only give this position to those who went into it willingly. It is not honourable to assign to someone eons of torment and torture without their informed consent. Proving Day appears to be a pivotal moment for the Heralds. Perhaps they were given a taste of what they were in for, and then asked if they were willing to take up that burden. The words they swear are not a commitment to behave in a particular way, but an affirmation that they are willing to take on the burden of being a Herald, and a request to take the powers that come with it. This would be much closer to the words Gavilar says. It's a small moment, but I think potentially gives us a big hint about the difference between becoming a Radiant and becoming a Herald. The other important aspect of this is that when Gavilar reveals that he would just give up each time he died and return, the "Stormfather" very quickly breaks with him and leaves him to die. The being strongly implies he has the power to prevent his death. The fact that Gavilar was "close" to becoming a Herald means he can't be allowed to live. This selfish man cannot be allowed to take up the mantle of being a Herald, it would quickly release the Fused. That's important to note, as there is a lot of speculation about if this "Stormfather" is in fact someone else. If this line of reasoning holds, we can be confident that this being is not under the influence of Odium or his forces. Odium would jump at the chance to have Gavilar become part of the Oathpact.
  18. I didn't spot a specific mention of this, and it might even be a mistake, but it's interesting to me that Gavilar identifies the "sinuous, curved Blade" as belonging to Jezrien. This seems a little at odds with existing descriptions of Jezrien's blade ("thin, silvery weapon... an unornamented blade" WoR Ch 187) ("long, slender...largely unornamented" OB Ch 122), but more in line with the description of Ishar's blade (in RoW Ch 111) as, "a sinuous Shardblade lined with glyphs." Others noted that Gavilar doesn't seem to recognise Jezrien's blade when wielded by Szeth, which he ought to if he's seen the visions so many times. He also doesn't recognise Szeth using the powers of a windrunner, which I was also shown in the vision that featured midnight essence, IIRC. Furthermore, the SF reacts negatively (with a hiss) to Gavilar treating the blade cavalierly. Thinking about this led me down a rabbit-hole of what-ifs, but I think the above is fairly evidence based, while the rabbit-hole is a lot more guessy, and I'm interested to here what people think of the above.
  19. So, like everyone else, I've been thinking non-stop about the Prologue since I heard it read the first time, like a good Vorin man. The ardent, Sando did a wonderful job. And I have some theories. Part of this is me purposefully trying to go against the grain since the prevailing Susfather Theory is that the Stormfather is not the Stormfather. So, I have an alternate solution: The Stormfather IS the Stormfather in the prologue and he Bonds with another between guiding Gavilar and Dalinar. Firstly: The Stormfather isn't tied to the storm at this point. This isn't something I've seen questioned before, but what if the Stormfather wasn't always Connected to the storm, but rather chose to be in it at certain times. Or just wasn't in it at all. Thus, the Stormfather was in a different form when he approached Gavilar, a form that allowed him greater flexibility. Secondly: The Herald Gavilar was going to replace wasn't Taln, it was Ishar. The Stormfather is trying to forge a new Oathpact, and to do that, he needs to have a powerful Bondsmith. In the Prologue, Gavilar assumes he is going to replace Taln, but that is based off the assumptions that all the other Heraldic buns are getting Braized currently. Thirdly: After the Night of the Prologue, the Stormfather, acting like a teenager that goes back to a toxic relationship because they can "fix them this time," approaches and Bonds Ishar in order to cure his madness (Spoiler, it doesn't, at least not fully). Ishar, being excited with all these returning powers, starts his experiments we see at the end of RoW. Spooky, scary Spren-etons, send shivers down your spine. Fourthly: Chaos. Arguments. Vases get throw at heads. Doors get slammed. The Stormfather breaks the bond (the mechanics are a bit sketch, but at the very least, I don't think Ishar would break it on purpose). In the process of the break, the Stormfather binds himself/is bound to the storm in order to hide himself from Ishar for the time being. Fifthly: at some point in the relationship, the Stormfather mentions the Shin with the Honorblade. After the bad break-up, Ishar needs a rebound, so he goes to the Shin and steals the Bondsmith Honorblade. at this point, I think its possible that Cultivation intervened and tells the Stormfather to bond Dalinar because plans, but I just wanted to theorize about what could be going on here. Would be a nice subplot for Dalinar and the Stormfather to retread as the 10 days go forward in SA 5. I do think that there would be some rewrites to the prologue needed to clarify this and direct the foreshadowing to this particular thing, but that is a given with all the theories about the prologue, I think.
  20. We see in The Hero of Ages that Vin has certain limitations on the amount of Koloss that she can control via Connection at any given time; the more she controls, the more pressure it puts on her. Could it be that ancient entities in the Cosmere can suffer from having too many Connections that pressure their Spiritweb, and that this leads to insanity if left unchecked? This is may partially be why the Fused and Heralds are having such a hard time, and why Kelsier really wants to capture and interrogate a Herald.
  21. So, there is something very weird and not yet revealed about the timeline for the human migration from Ashyn to Roshar, the Heralds, and the Oathpact. From what we are told in Oathbringer, humans came to Roshar and were granted Shinovar to live in, eventually they wanted more land and fought against the singers/Dawnsingers, starting the wars that became the Desolations. But most if not all of the Heralds were born on Ashyn, before the migration to Roshar, with the only possible exception being Shalash. And the Heralds became Heralds when they were the age they now physically appear to be. (See the WOBs at the bottom of this post...) This puts a fairly tight constraint on the time scale for these events; probably no more than 30-35 years or so, if Shalash was born around the time of the migration. Yet it seems this must have taken a very long time. Shinovar is a pretty large land, and much more favorable to human life than most of Roshar - there wouldn't seem to be an immediate need to move beyond Shinovar. And the humans from Ashyn presumably arrived as refugees, not immediately ready for a war of conquest. And furthermore, it seems the Oathpact couldn't have been a response to the initial war with the singers. The Stormfather says (Oathbringer chapter 38; I'm not copying his ALL CAPS): So the Oathpact didn't happen until after: - humans fought a war with the singers - the dead singers became the Fused to fight against humanity further, and were repeatedly reborn - this process continued long enough for it to become clear that humanity couldn't win the war unless something drastic changed That pushes the timeline out even further, as these wars probably lasted years (maybe many years) by themselves. This seems to be a major timeline issue. But do we really know that the Heralds became Heralds at the same time as the Oathpact was formed? The Stormfather says (same chapter) that the purpose of the Oathpact was to seal the Fused spirits in Braize: But then, why do they get Surgebinding powers and Honorblades? How does that help? (This question isn't original to me- wish I could remember who brought it up - but I've seen it used as evidence that repeating Desolations, and thus a need to fight, was Honor's plan. But the Stormfather made it very clear that it was supposed to "end the war forever", ie no more fighting needed...) We do know that the Honorblades were given to the Heralds as part of an oath (Oathbringer Chapter 16, the Stormfather speaking:) But perhaps there is more than one oath involved. One maybe 30 years after the migration to Roshar, when the Heralds stop aging, get Surgebinding and Honorblades. And a second one, the actual Oathpact, after decades of war with the singers, becoming an endless losing battle as the Fused arise and reincarnate endlessly, which doesn't involve Surgebinding but does trap the Fused spirits on Braize. WOB #1:
  22. All people have a Cognitive Aspect which is formed of Investiture (as technically everything is). Upon death this Aspect begins to dissipate, just as the body begins to decay. An infusion of Investiture to the body will heal it and an infusion of Investiture to the Cognitive Aspect will maintain it. Living people are effected by other people’s perceptions. The effect is simply minimized for unknown reasons. In contrast, the Cognitive Aspects of objects and non-sapient creatures do not have whatever safe guard minimizes this effect on living sapients and are strongly effected by perceptions. Shadows seem to fall into an in between area. They’re less effected by perception than non-sapients, but they’re more effected than living sapients. Whatever safeguards living sapients appears to be damaged, though a strong enough infusion of Investiture or exposure to the Spiritual Realm may help. What’s even more interesting is that there’s some indication that the whole problem is tied to memory and the limits of human capacity for it. It’s possible memory is the safeguard. There are some indications that an ordinary living sapient who lives too long will begin to have the same issue as a Shadow. And others that indicate natural immortals may avoid the issue. It’s also worth noting that Vessels seem to have a similar problem and some take advantage by trying to shape perceptions of themselves in particular manners. (Note that most Vessels are alive.) To me this indicates that the problem is less of perception and more a matter of Spiritual Connection. If the body is the physical function, and the Cognitive is the consciousness, it seems like the Spiritual is the totality of our lives experiences: the web of memories and connections we form throughout our lives that define who we are. It seems to me that as the Cognitive Aspect reaches its natural threshold for recall, it begins to lose its ability to access portions of that web, almost like a magical version of Alzheimer’s disease. It’s as though the Connection between Consciousness and Experience begins to fray, leading to the weakening of the Self. I’m going to call this the recall threshold: the point past where a Cognitive Aspect can access the sum totality of its Spirit Web. If something happens to expand the Cognitive Aspect’s ability to ‘recall’ or if something stimulates this, the Cognitive Aspect will ‘remember’ itself. In the absence of a whole link to the Spiritweb, I think perception takes its place. That’s a type of Connection too, but it’s one formed by the collective experiences and memories of other people. If you don’t know who you are, then you have to take it from other people. Imagine someone with amnesia, being told ‘You are X. You work as a Y. This is your family.’ etc. and determining who you are based on that. Except on a much broader and unconscious scale. In this hypothesis, as the ties from the Cognitive Aspect to the Spiritweb fray, the collective Consciousness, the perceptions and Connections of and with other people, act to shore up the fraying supports. Over time, as the ties between Realms continue to weaken, this collective consciousness becomes a pseudo-Spiritweb shaping the way the Cognitive Aspect defines itself while still allowing that self to maintain some definition. This has little to do with whether it’s the original person, or soul, or not. It’s not a problem of perception - indeed, perception would actually be acting as a symptom reducer - but a problem of Connection between Realms. The problem that Shadows face would simply be a result of those ties being damaged by having died. Just as a person loses their Connection to the Physical, they also lose their Connection to the Spiritual upon death. When a Shadow has their Cognitive Aspect stabilized, it stops the severing process and may even reverse some of the damage. But it seems reasonable that these Connections between Realms are no longer whole. The Connection to the Physical, for example, needs to be intentionally restored. If the tie to the Spiritual remains damaged, then it would be more vulnerable to breakdown than that of a living sapient. So while both living and Shadow will experience the recall threshold problem, a Shadow will experience the effects much sooner. This effect would apply to all Shadows over time. In fact, it would apply to all non-natural immortals. Even natural immortals could, in theory, eventually hit their (presumably much higher) recall threshold and experience the effects of the loss of Spiritual Connection. In conclusion, whether or not a Shadow is the original person’s consciousness/soul is immaterial and remains a philosophical problem (as per WoB). The problem is one of Realmatic Connection that would ultimately effect all sapients, with the closest Physical Realm equivalent being something like Alzheimer’s or other disorders of memory. The fact that increasing the recall threshold or decreasing the distance between Realms can heal this damage would be indicative of this problem not being tied to original personhood of a Shadow, but to a greater Realmatic effect to which Shadows are simply more susceptible due to their weakened ties to the Realms.
  23. Hemalurgy can take Connection via duralumin. Could one take the Connections that the heralds have, then give themselves those Connections, then somehow "heal", those damaged and weakened Connections to re-forge the Oathpact?
  24. Something about the physical appearance of the heralds seems off to me, particularly the ages of Ash and Jezrein. Sanderson was askedabout it and he was very evasive about the timeline of the Oathpact and particularly how it related to the ages of the heralds. The only hard comments we have about the timeline is that 1) The Heralds appear the age they were when they became heralds, 2) At least some time passed between escape from Ashlyn and the Oathpact (They left when they were "younger than they were when they became Heralds"), and 3) Shalash is the youngest herald was born right around the time of the escape, possibly right after. The first point is a bit of an issue because Jezrein canonically looks to be in his late 30s. Shalash doesn’t have a canon age description due to the absence of comments on her being a teenager, so probably early twenties at the youngest. This is a bit of an issue because is Jezerin in Ash's father. The simplest explanations - Ash is Jezrin’s biological daughter and he was a teen dad, but Jezerin as a father that young doesn't really make sense to me with his character - Ash is adopted. She’s more ‘western’ looking while Jezrerin is described as more ‘eastern’ looking by Rosharan standards. If so she could be around 10-15 years younger than him which fits the appearances better than the biological limitations. Whatever caused Ashlyn to be destroyed likely created orphans, and adoption is a totally Windrunner thing However, this discrepancy also led me to a fairly tinfoil theory, but one I think there is mounting evidence for. That the Oathpact was founded over many years, and not all of the heralds were created at the same time. Specifically, they joined up in their numerical order. In general, the consistent ordering of the heralds has its roots somewhere, and the surge binding diagram, with its extra connections, implies that there is an innate organization to the Rosharan surges. I also think it's likely that the heralds were specifically selected individually as the best candidate to wield a pair of surges, not that the most awesome-est ten people were chosen and then assigned surges. It's not too much of a stretch to perhaps people had to be added to the Oathpact (or the Honorblades had to be created) in some specific order. This actually works well with the scant evidence we do have about the Herald's early history and synergizes well with some of the numerology and mythology we have about them. Jezerin was the first, which makes sense as the leader. Ishar is technically 10th/last, but since the heralds are portrayed on a circle, Ishar could have initially first (and Jezerin 2nd) which got the perception got shifted over time since Jezerin was seen as the leader. Or Ishar could have been the last officially made a herald (last Honorblade made maybe?) and was using his non-Herald Ashlynite bondsmith powers initially. We see in Nale’s flashback that he is approached by Jezerin who says that “Ishar and I agreed. There is no person we would welcome more eagerly into this pact than you.” To me the grammar implies to 'we' welcoming him into the pact is 'Ishar and Jezerin' which places Nale as the next (2nd) before others were selected. Also the 'welcome into this pact' could be interpreted as the pact already existing, with people added to it over time. Shallash as #6 is much later than Jezerin. This allows time for her to grow into an adult while Jezerin is frozen at the 30s/40s he became a herald in. Taln was supposed to be Herald, and hadn't distinguished himself before being chosen like the others. As 9th, the last except for Ishar, Odium could have time to catch on and eliminate the initial choice, or do something to threaten the plan and force Ishar to make a snap decision (maybe Taln was just the best candidate in the right place/right time). Any other ideas or interpretations? I think the adoption explanation is the simplest to clear up the Ash/Jezerin age discrepancy but I do there's something to the numerology.
  25. Now that Navani and Dalinar are bonded to the Sibling and the Stormfather respectively, are they the most powerful couple ever to live on Roshar? Unless two of the Heralds were married to each other or two previous bondsmiths, I think they probably are. Also, I find it fitting that two bondsmiths are bonded to each other.