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Found 8 results

  1. Parshendi Forms: From Eshonai's prologue, after Gavilar explains the fabrial: When Venli first meets Timbre, at Eshonai's body: And then Venli bonds with Timbre: And then when talking with the Fuzed named Rine: So the Nahel bond is more powerful than the Parshendi forms bond from capturing spren inside their gemhearts during highstorms to transform, presumably because the only stormlight needed for the Parshendi bond to work is during the bonding itself but not for any of the surges that come after the bond. When Aesudan and Amaram bonded with the Unmade spren, that seems to be a Parshendi bond since they swallowed gems (spheres) to make the bond, with Amaram's purple gemheart glowing in the end and Aesudan's gemheart glowing through her dress. Thunderclasts From the Thaylen City battle: So the stone has gemhearts that, when inhabited by Voidspren, transform the stone into something else. No wonder Szeth's people aren't stonewalkers, right? Does stone have other forms? Chasmfiends Chasmfiends obviously have gemhearts. I think they must have other forms, too. We know chasmfiends, skyeels, and greatshells all have the same spren. From the Kaza interlude, we know that greatshells do also have gemhearts. Are these three different forms for the same being? Do chasmfiends have other forms? Are they also thunderclasts? From Adolin's fight with the thunderclast: Urithiru And then: So we wake it just as the Fuzed woke Thunderclasts from stone, right? We bond Urithiru with a spren. Or multiple spren. Spren that can be trapped in a heart of emerald and ruby. And from the gem library: Dude, is Urithiru the Sibling?!!!! Sibling to the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather? So the Sibling was stolen away? And from the Stormfather's conversation with Dalinar: Slumbering! Sleeping! Just like Dalinar said Urithiru was! And this is why the Radiant says goodnight to Urithiru, goodnight to the Sibling! So we need to find the slumbering Sibling spren and restore her (or probably "them" because the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the singular and the plural) to Urithiru's heart to waken Urithiru, right? And what will a wakened Urithiru be like? Will she move? Will she protect? Will she destroy? *************************** Related ideas: Fabrials are similar but not as alive as it would seem Urithiru will be and certainly not as alive as Parshendi, chasmfiends, or great shells. Parshmen may not have had gemhearts until the first Everstorm, which restored their gemhearts and thus enabled them to now have forms, including Voidforms. Different Parshendi forms likely come from different types of spren, with Voidform (forms of power) coming from corrupted or Unmade spren. Dullform might be having a gemheart with no spren bond since dullform is so close to parshmen. Are there secrets to other cities, not just Urithiru? Kabsal draws Kholinar as a triangular shape with three outlying wings and a peaked center (Pg 510 of WoK), which incidentally is the symbol on Gavilar's shardplate (Pg 29 of WoK), saying that the city was built on a rock formation already there. The stone windblades of Kholinar seem particularly significant, where Kaladin says the interior corridor of the windblades reminds him of the strata at Urithiru (Pg 785 of OB). I'm equally interested in the City of Shadows and even the City of Bells, but perhaps these cities are special in different ways.
  2. In WoR Rlain states that whilst posing as a parshman he was in dull form, does anyone know what form he was in when he came to help Kaladin?
  3. So in the last few years we've learned quite a lot about how healing works in the cosmere. Whether or not you whippersnappers can fathom it, we used to be quite confused on the whole issue. But post-TES we've essentially nailed down healing as based on the Cognitive aspect of the healed (with some very well-delineated exceptions). This Cognitive model has been explicitly applied to permanent Resealing in Forging, as well as almost certainly applying to how Stormlight healing works, and being described as applying to "most" healing in the cosmere and so very likely including Feruchemical Gold. Myself, I've tried a bit to explore the fringes of the system by examining what exactly is limiting people from going crazy and using warped self-perception to grow an extra limb, or become immortal. I've settled on my old standby ("old" only at this point: once again: whippersnappers, all of you!!! ) of Forms as the main answer, historically. So TLR aged because some Human Form kept him grounded, and we needn't fear Doc Oc growing actual tentacles for the same reason. ---- But then we got a new WoB from the SLCC signing: Source: My first comment when I saw this was "We've gotten pretty definitive 'it's Cognitive' stuff before, so perhaps here Brandon is emphasizing the Spiritual as a limiting factor?" -- But really, the phrasing here is a bit odd given all we've had in the past to suggest a primarily-Cognitive mechanism. I think the answer, then, might be a mildly radical re-shaping of how we understand the mechanism of magical healing. Since TES, we've essentially been saying that healing is just the body's "state of health" being brought into compliance with its Cognitive aspect. To the extent that the Spiritual was involved at all, it was only tangentially as I insisted that Spiritually-based Forms acted as a limiting factor on what healing could accomplish. Given this new WoB, though, I might suggest a shift in this model. Instead of healing being both driven and expressed by the Cognitive aspect, I would argue that its motive force is instead based in the Spiritual aspect of the healed. Now we have much less knowledge about Spiritual interactions than I'd like, but we do have this: Source: So we can start at a crude level by just thinking of the spirit as your "ideal self" (whatever that means and however that's formed/maintained...). So far as healing goes, then, perhaps we should model it as the Spiritual aspect attempting to impose its idealized form onto the body, but having to work through the "reality" (or at least closer-to-reality) of the Cognitive aspect. -I really really promise that that one theory of mine wasn't even in my mind when I started writing up this thread. That said... So the Spiritual saying "make the body like X" and then the Cognitive interpreting and applying directive X within the framework/restrictions of the Cognitive aspect. --- This new "workflow" also provides a convenient inlet for Forms to do there thing, as before they were just kind of butting into an otherwise purely Cognitive process. Here, then, it seems we might be able to conclude that Forms plug into the Spiritual aspect of each individual (as makes most sense in terms of interaction) and so guide the healing process from the top down. If the Spiritual never asks the Cognitive to heal the effects of aging, then it never will. Of course an alternative might be to discard Forms from healing altogether and posit something intrinsic to the spirit such that it never "distorts" enough to allow bizarre "healings" or the like. This has some plausibility if we're to see the spirit as somehow ideal. Myself, though, I like the idea of having a very firmly external authority to go to with these matters, to cut down on shenanigans. I'll end about here, I think. This merits some further exploration, but better to let some discussion commence than just keep rambling into more and more speculative territory by myself. EDIT: For sake of reference, here's Shai's definition of the Realms: Essence, ideal; potato potato?
  4. Hello all. Since my previous thread, while not getting many objections, was universally hailed as the single most dense and unreadable thing ever, and a bit of new information has come to light, I've decided to try a bit of a simplification/reboot. I'll leave off all my crazy talk about the minutia of Forging (see the original thread for that) and just talk about the bare bones of the matter with some clearly marked digressions at the end to analyse how it applies to Spren, Returned, and Forging, as well as glossing over some other possible uses for a "Form" theory of Realmatics. Evidence: We've got various quotes pointing us in this direction: Brandon's comment on "poopspren" opens up the possibility of a bit more Cognitive-Spiritual fuzziness than I've been talking about up until now, but I would hazard that the Cognitive versions of Forms are akin to "working copies" that serve as an intermediary between "ideal" Spiritual Forms and the amalgamation of Cognitive perceptions: the Cognitive version can get messy and be reactive, with the initial version based on and tied to the pure Spiritual Form and the end results (after being gnawed on by a few thousand people's brains) percolating up to the Spiritual--and so providing a mechanism for both changing existing Forms and creating new ones. This is somewhat similar, at least in terms of metaphor, to Sazed's two sets of Copperminds. EDIT 2: Actually, looking at another part of Nepene's question, this is almost certainly how it works. Not sure how I overlooked that before. Basic Theory: Stop me if I get too convoluted. Okay. As you can see in the quotes above, Spren as we know them (visible, interacting Spren, not pseudo-Cognitive aspects) are based on "cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time". As I asked Brandon, this is the same type of thing that lets a window being remade out of new stained glass or a block of gold being adulterated with lead judge the plausibility of its Forgery. It is also the same thing that makes Returned of one era (including Vasher, actually) fat and those of another era athletic (also including Vasher, reinforcing that he accesses an external "Returned" Form rather than just changing his own perceptions). These "Forms," then, are quasi-independent Spiritual entities that come into being as a result of the massed Cognitive perceptions of large numbers of sapient (as in perceiving, not necessarily self-aware) beings. So "Fire," "Wind," "Pain," and "Window" all have Forms because they are abstractions from the specific to the general. I take these truths to be self-evident, given the information we have. Expansion: I hereby spare you an expansion. Look at the original thread if you want to torture yourself, or I'll gladly expand on and/or defend the theory if anyone has questions to ask below. Applications: Forging: As I lay out in far more detail in the other thread I linked to, the "plausibility" of Forgeries seems to depend, to a large extent, on manifold Spiritual connections to appropriate Forms. So whether or not a block of gold would be adulterated with lead, or a set of manacles made out of soap, is dependent on quasi-independent manifestations of social norms. Nepene's question also gave us the fact that more "local" views can also have an affect on a Forgery: thousands of people going "AH! The Emperor is a homunculus!!!!" is just as effective as a Form in this regard, and should work in the same way. Returned and Divine Healing: Looking at Nepene's and my own question, it's clear that the beauty standards of Returned are dependent on some highly external sense of human physical ideals. These standards seems to be externally imposed as well, looking to Nepene's question. Also, as I mentioned when discussing Vasher above, these ideals seem to be actively as well as externally imposed on those who are in "Returned" form, as opposed to being simply internalized at one point and then not updated, though I suppose Vasher could conceivably have intentionally "updated" his Returned appearance. As I mentioned here, I would posit that the healing done by the sacrifice of a Returned's Divine Breath is so much better than normal magical Healing--healing Susebron to have a tongue and the ability to speak, instead of the normal "you heal back to the form of yourself" you see with Forging and Feruchemy--because it accesses some Form of human health, external to the healed and thus not restricted by their Cognitive aspect. Spren: Though I do have an entire thread on the matter, I would like to reiterate that Spren seem to be the purist manifestation of these Forms that we have yet seen. Whether windspren are drawn to the wind or are the wind, their forms seem to be entirely dependent upon both incidental Cognitive perceptions (see: locked flamespren in the interlude) and broader, more universal Forms. General Effects of Forms: It's dawned upon me (oh no) that Forms seem to serve a similar function to the Cognitive Realm. Not Realmatically (though they kind of do that too), but in terms of Brandon being able to write books and magic systems that don't break down under their own weight. Just as the Cognitive stops the world from exploding whenever someone tries to leave a Cadmium bubble and allows Healing without Miles being a mass of tumors, so Forms restrict and guide magic along "common sense" routes on a more meta-scale. The spoiled are just a few thoughts I've had, and are tangential to the theory as a whole. They're probably worth spinning theories off of, if anyone likes my Form theory and wants to expand on it a bit. Wow, that's more than I wanted to have to force you to read. Sorry (again). I would like to stress that a fair amount of this is conjecture; highly educated (*pats own back*) and plausible conjecture, but conjecture nonetheless. I've tried to note--with quotes, links, or "as we all knows"--wherever what I say is canon. EDIT: Nvm, turns out I'm right in a lot of ways. That's nice.
  5. Hello, and welcome back to the madhouse. EDIT: Start on the second post if you want to follow a completely unrelated (yet still more intelligible and possibly more interesting) discussion about the nature of the spiritweb. -Start off on this whole other thread if you want a much more succinct version of the points made on this one, as well as much more evidence that came out after I posted this original thread. I do plan on a more comprehensive expansion to the MEC based on TES, but this is a bit of a side-jaunt that I think it's valuable to have. Aside about previous theories: First of all, a bit of a disclaimer. While this idea has been bouncing around in my head for awhile now, and I've even posted a few disparate thoughts on it, Nepene was the first one to get anything of this form down on paper. I'm pulling a bit of a Leibniz to his Newton, then. Nepene had some good ideas, but I think his terminology and/or focus was a bit off, and his thread got seriously derailed by unnecessary discussion of Brandon's spirituality. I tried to redirect Nepene towards Platonism, but alas, 'twas not to be. That being the case, I'm now posting my alternate view on how "Forms" (Nepene's "Archetypes") work in the Cosmere, based primarily on my understanding of Platonism and the Spiritual Realm rather than Jung and the Cognitive. I have this alternate focus because Brandon referenced Jung as a bit of a one-off on how the Parshendis' songs work; this may well be interesting and lead to some useful conclusions about Realmatics, but I don't think Spiritual Archetypes follow from it. On the other hand, Brandon has explicitly stated that Realmatics is "based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'", and we know from Shai that the "Window" Form and others like it exist in the Spiritual Realm. And, obviously, me being me, I will be going into absurd depth. However, I do acknowledge that Nepene has priority as to the rough outlines of the importance and nature of Forms/Archetypes. P.S. Also, as it turns out, I kind of took a right turn at Albuquerque, and shot off into crazy-land. I'd intended to just lay out some general outlines for how Forms would work, but that was apparently too easy (and short), so I (unconsciously) decided to tackle almost the entirety of Forging as well. Looking at Nepene's thread, I think we split off fairly sharply in focus, so there isn't too much overlap (although, incidentally, I still think he's wrong on his impacts over there ). Background: Awhile ago, I posted a thread postulating that spren work by accessing "Forms" stored in the Spiritual Realm. Here is the main evidence I based it on: Basic Theory: sForms Basic Realmatics, Gaotona Emulating Ashraven, and Human Forgery in general: Plausibility "Calculation": Strength, Scope of Effect, and Inertia Role of Cognitive Aspects: Closing: Wow, that was longer than intended, and went some places I didn't expect. Sorry about that. Anyone want to suggest a TL;DR for me to throw in? There are a few chinks to be filled in in order to have a proper MEC-response to TES, but I got more of my thoughts down than I meant to. Sorry about that too. Discuss, permutate, criticize (immediately skip because of how long it is...). Have fun. P.S. Also, I acknowledge that there is a slight possibility that this thread is absurd. Either that or awesome. But that's how I roll. No middle ground for me. P.P.S Also also, this is slightly more TES-centric than I intended, but the implications flow to the rest of the Cosmere. EDIT: TL;DR: There exist a range of semi-independent "Forms" in the Spiritual Realm--created and maintained by the perceptions of living beings--the strength and reach of which are determined by the strength and reach of those who "believe" in any given Form. These Forms range from a weak, regional "our mayor is a mean guy" to strong, universal "Humans: they age." The "plausibility" of any Forgery is assessed in reference to these Forms, with each object having a certain number of connections to certain Forms based on its Cognitive identity (a table won't bother to connect with the Human form, I don't think, though it could without any real harm). When a Forgery is done, the network of Forms which are related to its target do a group "gut call" on whether and to what degree it is acceptable. Same on the level of individual souls, as in the case of Gaotona. Living beings kill off stamps because their Cognitive aspects actively fight against the external imposition of identity. Stamps do not replace original aspects, merely overlay them for a time. Also, just as an aside, I don't think a bunch of rocks in space without any observer will ever form a coherent Cognitive aspect as a singular being, so there can exist objects which, while Physically singular, are made up of a plurality of Cognitive aspects. EDIT 2: A bit more evidence. I hadn't recalled this quote until Nepene put it in his Cosmere 201 quote-bank: (WoK 711) While this is in-line with Vorinism's "everything is super-powered when you die" (farmers grow entire fields with a wave of their hands, etc.), and so might be religiously inspired, Ashir and Geranid seem to be pretty Realmatically knowledgeable, so I'll give them credit on this one. So a hint that "objects" in the Spiritual Realm are in "a state of ideals". EDIT 3: Significantly changed the Gaotona part, as well as moving stuff around. I had been waiting for someone to post a criticism before saying this, but apparently I scared everyone off, so I'll just put it down for posterity. EDIT 4: Threw in some extra stuff in the Cognitive section. EDIT 5 (01/04/2015): For what it's worth, plausibility does seem to be decided by Forms.
  6. *Small TES Spoilers* At 7:30 in the TES Writing Excuses episode, Brandon identifies at least part of the foundation of Realmatics: "we're delving into the Cosmere stuff, my underlying theory of existence in my novels, which is based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'". We can see at least some of this happening in TES with how Forging works, but particularly with what happens when you Forge simple objects, like Shai's stained glass window. In her discussion with Gaotona: Spren, then, seem to represent these self-same forms (the Forms of Fire, Wind, Pain, Fear, Gravity, Ale...). The question, then, is whether spren are Cognitive beings (as most people have assumed, I think) that access Spiritual Forms or if they are mostly just Spiritual beings. If spren are Spiritual in nature, then it would lend credence to Windrunner's idea of Spiritual/Physical overlap giving rise to the Cognitive Realm, especially when paired with Syl's inability to think in the Physical Realm without her bond with Kaladin. Some Cognitive overlap obviously occurs, though, such as how Flamespren are seen (when measured) affecting their nature in perfect alignment with how the Cognitive realm--"how an object is viewed and how it views itself" (pg 53)--works. Spren are imperfect tokens of the Forms, then, not the Forms themselves, so I think that they are Cognitive beings that have a strong access to and dependency on Spiritual Forms, but are not just Spiritual representation of the Forms themselves. Mildly less concrete: This also explains why Spren can be so region-specific (such as Ale-spren and Cusicesh), since local belief in specific Forms is necessary for their to be any local Spiritual Form for spren to latch onto. This means that, if Shai went to some world/region that simply didn't have the concept of glass windows, she wouldn't be able to Forge one, no matter how plausible she made it, since no Windown form would exist for her to access. Somewhat less concrete: This is also implied by the fact that "the more people who know of a Forgery, the more likely it is to fail." (pg 42 ?), implying that Forgeries rely on the constant maintenance of their foundational Forms (i.e., and "Emperor as the Emperor" Form rather than a "Emperor as a simulcrum" Form as the basis for Shai's Forgery). This also implies that, if the very concept of a Window were to be instantaneously excised from Sel--or even just the Rose Empire, potentially--then Shai's Forgery of the stained glass window would fail at that very moment. EDIT: And it further follows that these Forms do not, in fact, take on any real independent existence of their own, but instead are at all times determined by the aggregate of Cognized concepts which make up their form. Like a Russellian conception of "Red" within an individual's mind being, in truth, the aggregate of all those things which a person considers to be red, or otherwise the average of them, such as how people think of a "perfect rectangle" whenever you say the word "rectangle." Although, on second thought, I suppose that the Forms could come to be as an aggregate concepts, but then "split off" into their own independent existence. That would mean that "Fear" would exist whether or not there existed entities to experience fear, which then gets us into philosophical discussions (in the Cosmere, where all philosophy matters!) of whether a number can be prime in and of itself and what have you. It could also be slightly less strict, with Forms having their own inertia once created, but still being dependent on and affected by changes in mass opinion. So everyone could stop believing that Drunkenness ought to have a Form in the town that Axies (I forget its name) visited, but it might take awhile for the spren to go away. So there's that, with many more fun and interesting things to come from TES, especially after the latest Orem signing is up and we have more questions answered . EDIT (6/8/13): I thought it was time to add some new evidence that pretty much locks some version of this theory in. Various passages, because evidence is fun Two different types of "spren", one is essentially a Cognitive aspect, the other is based on "cognitive ideals or concepts, which have taken on literal personification over time" "Spren are created by the perceptions of men" Also, I've posted two other theories about Forms since this one. One on their general structure and specifically how they relate to Forgery (immediately derailed, impossibly dense) and one that's more streamlined. UPDATE: Theory confirmed.
  7. We have seen the aftermath of splintering on both Sel and Roshar. In both cases we ended up with some pretty strange magical entities with semi-sentience: Spren on Roshar and Seons on Sel. Why were these created? I've been wondering if raw investiture naturally seeks out cognitive forms to merge with. So when any shard is splintered the unbound investiture combines with things like spren or Aons which represent that planet's cognitive forms. It could be a random thing and not really directed by anyone. Another possibility, the investiture could already have a spiritual form and would seek out the cognitive form that matches best. Perhaps splintering creates an imbalance where pure investiture doesn't have enough substance in the cognitive or physical realms. It needs to combine with a cognitive form and a human host to restore realmatic balance. Without this balance the Shardic power cannot be controlled and if left unchecked will lead to catastrophic consequences.
  8. It's been awhile since I threw a Forms thread at you guys, so I decided now's the time. This one is actually fairly short, just a thought that came to me the other day. Evidence: We have only a few quotes on the nature of conceptual interaction between shardworlds. Dead end: So that one's a dead-end because "shash's" universality is the direct result of the Shards having a single point of origin. More interesting, though... Source: Theory: Now we're in business. "Shadows"... Sounds like a Form to me!! So, in short, I would propose that the broad strokes of religious concepts (among other types of concepts, almost certainly) exist on a level that transcends individual shardworlds. So a man is pondering the beauty of colors on Scadrial and strikes on their possible spiritual significance: in so doing he establishes a Spiritual connection to some somewhat vaguely defined "Colorful Religion" Form. So far as other concepts go, I would hazard that similar things could happen with aesthetics, inventions, philosophy, etc. Not so much that every culture is just a carbon-copy of the other, obviously, but enough for a certain degree of similarity/contiguity. Now if only Roshar could pick up some Crossbow Forms from Sel...