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Found 4 results

  1. In WoK, when Shallan and Kabsal were talking about Voidbringers, Kabsal said this: Ten Divine Attributes? But from the table of Essences, aren't there twenty Divine Attributes? I think it's reasonable to conclude that the twenty attributes in the table of Essences were derived from ten more general attributes, and that those ten are what Kabsal was referring to. This means we can group the twenty attributes into pairs, merge those pairs, then come up with the actual Ten Divine Attributes. So, how do we do that? There are several interesting possibilities. One is to try and merge the Primary and Secondary Attributes of each Essence: I will let someone else attempt that. I personally couldn't find a way to merge such pairs as "resolute and builder", "learned and giving", "just and confident", etc., but then English isn't my native language. Another option is to merge the Primary Attribute of an Essence to the Secondary Attribute of the previous Essence: This has the added benefit of potentially mapping each unified Divine Attribute to a Surge, thereby connecting the table of Essences to the Knights Radiant chart: Once again, I will let someone else attempt that. I tried to do it a few years ago, pre-WoR, but I wasn't super successful. What I ended up doing recently is slightly different but still connected to that second option. Yes, I still think that the Attributes can be mapped to the Surges, but this time I ignored the Primary and Secondary labels for the purpose of this exercise. (For what it's worth, there must be a point in marking an Attribute "Primary", but I'm choosing to ignore it for now as irrelevant.) So with all that said, here's my attempt: Adhesion: Devotion Pious: devotion to gods Protecting: devotion to the weak When you're devoted to something, you stick to it no matter what (or at least till the devotion is no longer there). Gravitation: Authority Leading: being followed Just: to follow a moral code People gravitate towards authority, people or belief systems that they can follow to get the answers or the direction they seek. Division: Independence Confident: free from doubt Brave: free from fear The Division Surge removes the stuff that binds things, thereby "releasing" them from a sort of "imprisonment" or "slavery" of bonds. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the circumstance and the perspective. Just like how being free from doubt and fear can be good or bad. Abrasion: Attention Obedient: attention to rules/commands Loving: attention towards fellow man You tend to spend more time with people or things that you pay attention to or demand more of your attention, like a shoe experiencing more traction on a rough surface. But sometimes too much demand for your attention can wear away any interest you have, and your attention slips. If you don't pay attention to something, it might slip past you without you noticing, like something sliding quickly on oiled ground. Progression: Aid Healing: aiding the sick Giving: aiding the needy The Progression Surge is an aid to natural processes like the growth of living things or the healing of wounds, in that it makes those processes go faster, i.e. progress more. Illumination: Intellect Creative: productive intellect Learned: well-educated The intellect refers to the thing that supposedly allows us to know stuff, to understand, and to be creative. Enlightenment is what happens when you finally comprehend something. It is a concept directly related to the intellect, and is a word connoting light. Understanding brings illumination, and through it one sees. Transformation: Truth Honest: truthful Wise: able to discern truth The Surge of Transformation manipulates the truth about an object, changing its essence. Transportation: Stability Careful: avoiding error Resolute: unwavering in one's decisions The Surge of Transportation manipulates either the spatial or the realmatic stability of objects, allowing either teleportation or realmatic transition. Cohesion: Ingenuity Builder: assembles parts into a whole Resourceful: makes clever solutions Ingenuity means both cleverness and inventiveness. It is the ability to combine things into something useful and innovative. The Cohesion Surge allows the ingenuity of the user to manifest in any chosen material by shaping it to reflect his ideas, creating a cohesive structure built for a certain purpose. Tension: Responsibility Dependable: takes responsibility for assigned tasks Guiding: sets an example for others Responsibility can cause tension when the things you need to do and the things you'd rather do become opposite pulling forces. Your obligations, the oaths you've sworn, and the people who look up at you can all cause this tension. The key is to allow this tension to stretch you enough to make you stronger, but not stretch you past your breaking point. Mapping the Attributes to the Surges like this has another benefit: It allows us to rearrange both the Attributes and the Surges at the same time. In this framework, moving an Attribute moves the corresponding Surge, and vice versa. Why am I interested in moving things around? Well, I first thought about it several years ago when we learned that Illumination was connected to Pulp and Blood; I felt Illumination seemed more thematically connected to Spark and Lucentia. At the time, I tried "fixing" that with an alternative chart, but mostly failed. The idea of rearrangement came back to me a couple of months ago when I re-discovered a Way of Kings annotation showing that Brandon apparently experimented with various Knights Radiant chart versions. Here is one of his experiments from 2003: Notice how the Surges had different names back then (Division=Decay, Illumination=Energy, etc.), and different positions, and some probably were replaced with something else entirely in later drafts (like Awakening, maybe). Anyway, I was trying to work on a theory about the Dawnshards being of Cultivation around the same time last year. Seeing this previous iteration of the Knight Radiant chart, it suddenly occurred to me that a Cultivation magic system might have Surges and Attributes just like Honor's system, but changed somehow. And that's how I came up with the Elevations and Callings of Dawnshards theory.
  2. What follows is my current theory on how the 10 Heralds became the 10 fool's through the coarse of the Desolations. I will update this post as it evolves. I will try to provide links to all WOB. Quotes will come from the kindle versions of the books via cut and paste. I will list book, chapter, and location number. Bold will be my emphasis. Italics will be possible contradictory evidence. Number 18 here From Reddit Fantasy Bookclub Q&A with Brandon Sanderson Feb 28th, 2011 We will start with this quote which shows us all Heralds were in WOK. First, the Desolations occurred when the Heralds were sent back to Roshar after one of them broke under the torture of Odium. Second, each Herald is associated with a primary and secondary Divine Attribute. (Possibly primary from Honor, Secondary from Cultivation?) Third, the torture does not happen in the physical realm. It occurs in either the cognitive, or more likely the spiritual realm. Fourth, when Odium breaks a Herald, he is literally breaking part of that Heralds spiritual connection to the Divine Attribute. Fifth, Odium's goal was to break all the Heralds and bring about the the Everstorm, allowing him to shatter Honor and Cultivation. Sixth, breaking the Divine Attributes shifted them towards something more compatible with Odium and less compatible with Honor. This resulted in the attributes associated with the 10 Fool's. Number 19 in this WOB, says each is uniquely insane. NOTE: One of the biggliest issues with this theory is not knowing the 10 Fools attributes. Two Fools are named. Two have attributes. Cabine - He acts like a child although he is an adult. TWOK chapter 37, page 593, location 10668 Eshu - He speaks of things he does not understand in front of those who do. WOR chapter 71, page 593, location 16877 One issue I have here is that the 2 Heralds I would link these two too are both female. Paliah and Battar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) We have a WOB on this. Not a confirmation, but along those lines. 2) Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. Leading Nale. Just. Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. Builder Talenel. Dependable. Resourceful Ishar. Pious. Guiding 3) Since Odium was attempting to break the Heralds focus on their Divine Attribute, the torture most likely took place in the spiritual realm. The spren would probably know something if it took place in the cognitive realm. One thing pointing to the cognitive realm though is the fact that Taln appeared covered in condensation much like a shardblade. 4) By breaking the Herald, Odium shifted their Primary attribute to closer align with his shard and align less with Honors. This usually resulted in an almost inversion of the attribute. SPECIFICALLY I THINK ONLY THE PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE WAS BROKEN/TWISTED. Below I will show what I think the attribute shifted to after the Devine attribute. Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. (Submission) Leading Nale. Just. (Arbitrary)(Judgement) Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. (Destructive) Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. (Weak-willed) Builder Talenel. Dependable. (Erratic) Resourceful Ishar. Pious. (Traitorous) Guiding These are based off of what we have seen or heard in the books so far. These are not perfect words, but the 17th shard manymind will probably come up with better. There are some subtle indications that only 9 of the 10 fool's have a strong history or mythology. Here is one concerning Lyft and pancakes. I think I subconsciously connected Lyft's silly quest to eat all 10 Pancakes with the 10 fool's. Research could not find a direct correlation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jezrien gives up on protecting humanity personally, submits to the Will of the group, and sacrifices Talenel to uphold the entire oathpact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nale shifts from Just- working within the accepted standards of right and wrong to Arbitrary- following the rule of law without regards to morality.....he goes straight lawful evil. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 Judgement not Justice. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shalash is pretty clear with her running around destroying art, and significantly art that depicts her and other heralds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kalak is in no way resolute when Jezrien meets him. He is in fact very weak willed, confessing that he cannot go back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Talenel (if it really is him) comes back a broken man, highly erratic and unable to perform his duties as the Herald of War. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ishar formed the Knights Radiant originally, he led the Bondsmiths. He was also the one who promulgated the traitorous idea that 1 Herald could support the Oathpact. From Edgedancer: And And ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5) We know there were not literally 99 desolation. I suspect there were 9. One each time Odium broke a Herald. Then the next time that Herald would not be tortured as hard so that about her would break first. Nine also being the number of Odium I believe would work well with this. After the Oathpact was discarded, Odium let humanity rewrite Roshar's history and religion in preparation for the Final Desolation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6) The corruption of the 9 Heralds weakened Honor, but the Knights Radiant provided some support, until the Day of Requience when they abandoned all their oaths. Honor shattered shortly after. I have to go back and find some more quotes and WOB to fully support some of this, but I will edit them in as I find them.
  3. We know that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. What we don't know is exactly when the Oathpact was formed. Was it in response to Odium showing up? Was it in anticipation of this event? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with Odium? Here answer 1. Here answer 3 Here answer 4. Here answer 6. These all show that Odium had no part of the Oathpact, and his being stuck on Roshar is an indirect result of it. Now WAST time. The creation of The Dor, and the fight with Ambition surely could be felt by the other Vessels in the Cosmere. It could have become obvious that Odium was hunting Vessels and destroying them. While not diametrically opposed like Ruin and Preservation, there could be some issues with Honors focus on Permanant Bonds, and Cultivations more change centric intents. As lovers, they should have become aware of these issues fairly early after moving in together (on Roshar). Endowment splits off a splinter of herself in every Returned. The contests that selected the Heralds were designed to select 10 individuals. While some were martial in focus, not all necessarily were. Chana is noted for her great speed for instance. While Honor obviously presided over them, perhaps Cultivation was also a judge. Knowing that Odium would be coming, Honor decided to self splinter. This allowed him to focus his intent into specific individuals with the traits he was looking for, rather than the randomness of being shattered. A bunch of mini-champions if you will. While it might make him a bit weaker overalls to spreading out his power overall, it might make him more resilient in the end because of the individuals would be known. He might have forged a separate pact with Cultivation prior to this where she would also do the same to a lesser extent with the chooses, thus giving her a seat at the judgement. This would have allowed Brandon to state that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds, and not mention her. Now if each was looking for specific traits in the contestants, it would make sense if these became ingrained in the Vorin religion. We have this nice table of essences and relations to Heralds from the Vorinn religion. Divine Attributes Primary Divine Attributes of Protecting, Just, Brave, Loving, Learned, Creative, Wise, Resolute, Dependable, and Pious. I feel that I can tie all of these attributes to something Honor would be looking for in someone to hold part of his power. Secondary Divine Attributes of Leading, Confident, Obiedient, Healing, Giving, Honest, Careful, Builder, Resourceful, and Guiding. I feel I can tie all these attributes to Something Cultivation would be looking for. The individuals selected were to lead the people by being living representative of these ideals. Honor splintered off a fairly large bit of Investature to each, and Cultivation a smaller. But this infusion of Investature would seek to enhance these traits in each individual over time becoming more and more a part of their intent. Since they had strength in particular focuses these would be exemplified. Now this large amount of Investiture would probably have affected their life spans as we have seen on Nalthas and on Sel. Having extremely long lived individuals exemplifying ideals should lead to a highly stable society. Thus the Tranquiline Halls mythology. An almost to perfect society, yet not stuck on the now but also the future do to Cultivations influence. The Heralds had to make the Oathpact with Honor, but what was the Oath. TO UPHOLD THE IDEALS FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIVED. The Reward extremely long life. They would not be Heralds of War. But Heralds of Life. Heralds of Ideals. So then Odium shows up. We have the First Desolation. THEY ALL DIE. But due to the splinters they hold, they all become Cognative Shadows. Odium is set back, but these little fairly helpless Heralds are now trapped. They have held a splinter so long they have been warped on the SR to be almost programmed to stay and uphold these ideals. So each time a Desolation starts they move back into the PR and fight for these ideals against the one who killed them. Because of this Odium is stuck. Every time he tries to destroy Honor, they come back like Army ants attacking his flanks. And by coming back they inspire others to the same ideals. Thus indirectly trapping him in Roshar. He sences that Honor is weak, so his hatred won't let him leave, but every time he attacks, the Heralds show up to buffer honors strength. Thus he starts a long game as I outline in my 10 Heralds 10 Fools thread.
  4. While looking at the WoR “Ars Arcanum,” chart, a thought occurred: it seems that each KR order’s primary Divine Attribute is what attracts the requisite spren to that person in the first place (the “input”), and the secondary Divine Attribute is the “output” – how that person behaves once the Nahel bond is in place. Here are the Divine Attributes for each order: KR Order Primary Attribute Secondary Attribute Windrunners Protecting Leading Skybreakers Just Confident Dustrbringers Brave Obedient Edgedancers Loving Healing Truthwatchers Learned Giving LIghtweavers Creative Honest Elsecallers Wise Careful Willshapers Resolute Builder Stonewards Dependable Resourceful Bondsmiths Pious Guiding Here’s what I think happens: A Windrunner’s protectiveness attracts an honorspren, after which the Windrunner leads (Honor’s “binding” nature). A Skybreaker’s innate sense of justice attracts a highspren, after which the Skybreaker is more confident in making his or her judgments. A Dustbringer’s bravery attracts its spren, after which the Dustbringer tempers his or her courage (which can often be foolhardy) with adherence to others (“obedience”). An Edgedancer’s love, post-bond, enables him or her to heal. The benefit of a Truthwatcher’s erudition, post-bond, is given to others. A Lightweaver’s creativity, post-bond, allows others to see their true selves. An Elsecaller’s wisdom, post-bond, makes him or her more careful. A Willshaper’s resoluteness, post-bond, enables him or her to build. A Stoneward’s dependability, post-bond, makes him or her more resourceful. A Bondsmith’s piety, post-bond, helps guide others. With some of these, its hard to distinguish whether the KR always evidenced both Attributes, contrary to my suggestion, or whether the secondary Attribute kicked in after the bonding. In others (Edgedancers and Lightweavers, for example), I think my suggestion works pretty well. This probably lacks much significance, but I still found it interesting.