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Found 36 results

  1. So I was curious about the devotion aspect of Adonalsium and I couldn't find any WoB, page in the Coppermind or post in the forums that talks about it (I might have missed it and if so I'm sorry for bringing back a subject you may have tackled before) so I just wanted to bring this idea and see what you all think of it. From this WoB we can assume that the shards are fragments of Adonalsium's personality and, following this assumption, much like he kept a balance between preservation and ruin and had a desire to cultivate and the growth of things, he also had a sense of devotion directed towards to something or maybe someone. I don't think Adonalsium was devoted to a higher entity since this is one of the questions Brandon wants to leave open and having the most powerful entity in the universe worshipping something it thinks is even bigger would pretty much confirm it, so I think this devotion had to be directed towards something like a plan it had (much like how some people are devoted to the Diagram). My best guess for what this plan could be is the purpose of giving sentience to the Cosmere, as theorized and somewhat confirmed in this WoB. It could also be related to the creation of the Rosharan System and how Adonalsium had an specific purpose for its creation, or it could be something entirely different. This also raises some questions, like: Did Devotion's vessel know what was Adonalsium's devotion directed towards after she ascended? If so, is this part of the reason Odium decided to attack her and Dominion? This could also be part of the reason why Odium decided to splinter and trap most of their power in the Cognitive Realm, so nobody could ascend and get knowledge of Adonalsium's intentions. Well this is pretty much what I wanted to talk about, what are your thoughts in all this?
  2. While we were all taken in by the mystery of Ralkalest, the unForgeable metal and whether or not it was the same as aluminium, there was another substance that passed under our radars: Soulstones "Broken gods" could be referring to Splintered Shards Soulstones are weird. They are perfect for Forgery. A soft and easy to carve chalk like substance that hardens into a quartz like substance. Appearance-wise too it doesn't sound normal: ...but I'm no geologist, so if it is a real Earth substance like Ralkalest, just with a different name, tell me so!
  3. In Elantris it is mentioned that all the religions focus on unity. Shu-Dereth achieves Unity by Obedience(Dominion). Shu-Korath is Unity by Love (Devotion). Shu-Keseg is Unity (Dominion and Devotion) Did anyone else follow this train of thought?
  4. The spren of Roshar are all some mix between Honor and Cultivation or Odium. The Odium spren look different from the normal spren showing that different shards have different spren. In Elantris it is never discovered how seons are created. This is likely because they are devotion spren and bond with the people on Sel similar to how high spren bond to people on Roshar. It is also mentioned that Seons are almost physical representations of "Gods love" (Devotion)
  5. I should begin by informing you that this theory discusses info which is available in the 10th Anniversary Edition of Elantris, as well as the Arcanum Unbounded. If you've only read Elantris and not the new version then you might spoil yourself. AonDor existed before Elantris was built. We know this because how else would the builders have known the shape of the Aon in which it was supposed to be built? The Dor itself needs to have existed for AonDor, yet I have a theory that AonDor existed before the Splintering of Devotion & Dominion. And even weirder, I also have a theory that the city of Elantris might've been built while she was still alive Don't worry though, I also have a far more sane theory attempting to answer this question right below the crazy one that I've marked under a line of tildes (~) The biggest reason why I think that Devotion might've been there when Elantris was created is the Pool. It had apparent religious significance to the Elantrians. The Pool was depicted in the wall relief in the secret meeting room. It was situated quite close to the city itself, which was visible from the peaks where the pool was located. When entering it, people feel an extreme sense of comfort and calm. The Hoed regained a bit of consciousness in it. The Pool speaks to people when they enter it, offering peace and contentment, wishing to take away their sorrows and pains. Those who do not accept the relief do not dissolve. And it makes sense that way, the Elantrians getting old enough to want release going there to die but finding a new world. Devotion's Perpendicularity just gave the feel from both where it was physically located, to how it was described, it seemed as though it was placed there specifically for this purpose. There's another thing though, in Mistborn: Secret History, we meet... It is very possible that some form of AonDor existed before the Splintering, since the Selish magics seem to be focused on forms & coding. The proto Aons might not have been in the shape they are now (i.e. the shape of Arelon). The Selish magics' focus probably were symbols even before D&D's death, it's just the region-specificity (in form & function) that might have been introduced to them afterwards. The Surges were very much a part of the Rosharan system before the Shards' arrival, weren't they? The magic should change with an event as drastic as its Shards getting killed and shoved into the Cognitive Realm but why would it need to change the part where the magic is utilized via symbols? The change caused by shoving Devotion & Dominion into the Cognitive Realm is that the magics got region-locked due to the Cognitive Realm distinguishing between such. Even so, Selish magics being unavailable outside of Sel seems much more a direct result of that than region-focused magic, which was probably based on the Cognitive Realm itself being affected by people's perception of being different from other groups than anything purely fundamental about having a Shard hanging around in the Cognitive. I'm hypothesizing the possibility that the problem got exacerbated with their Splintering rather than being created due to it. There's also the fact that 'Aon' is derived from Aona, Devotion. And that Seons were born when Aona was Splintered. The Seons have Aons at their centre which are Splinters of Aona. Which means Aons existed during that time. The religions of Shu-Korath (Domi, united through love) and Shu-Dereth (Jaddeth, united through obedience by the rule of a theocratic government) seem divided between Devotion and Dominion and the magics seem to reflect these divisions too, observing AonDor vs Dakhor, though it might be correlation rather than causation, after all, they are splinter religions arising from an older religion, Shu-Keseg. We know that Sel's Shards, Devotion & Dominion were killed by Odium and that their power was stuffed into the Cognitive Realm to form the Dor. We also know that this is the reason why the Selish magics are locked. We see evidence of the conflict between Shards on all of these other Shardworlds except on Sel ⚠ Stormlight Archive minor spoilers (info on the cover blurbs) ⚠ Spoiler  ⚠ Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell spoilers ⚠  Sel also houses dead Shards but the only effect seems rather... mild, is it related to how Odium locked them in the Cognitive? Or is the region-locked magic its version all that remains as evidence of conflict between three Shards? Why is Sel still doing so well despite having two Splinterings? Neither Threnody nor Roshar are doing so well ⚠ Mistborn: Secret History spoilers ⚠  The lack of any direct effect from the Splintering I can accept, maybe Odium finished the deed in the Cognitive or immediately locked the remnants in the Cognitive after killing Aona (Devotion) and Skai (Dominion) but why isn't there any evidence of a planet scale war? There must have been some evidence of the conflict for Khriss to deduce what happened. Who would the conflict be staged between on Sel? On Roshar This is assuming Odium even needs to subvert people to create hatred between groups to somehow damage how another Shard is perceived, or that he tried to pit Devotion and Dominion against one another, these are just theories and are in no way confirmed. But if such a conflict did occur, was it waged between the continents on Sel? On each continent? Opelon doesn't have indications of such a conflict. Except maybe the city of Elantris and the land of Arelon, which was found uninhabited by its would-be settlers, the Aonic people, led by King Rhashm who would go on to rename himself King Raoshem. Did Devotion and Dominion just die to Odium? Ambition fought, Honor fought, Devotion and Dominion must've fought as well, Elantris and the land of Arelon could have been a staging ground for the conflict between the Shards, which might've been why it was empty when it was found, having been on the side that lost I should note that so far as we know, both the Splinterings occurred within a few thousand years of the Shattering. And Odium could've very well ignored the inhabitants of Sel and only concerned himself with the Shards he was there to kill. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The less crazy theory is ~Mistborn: Secret History spoilers~ I know, I know, the first one was a crazy idea, right? There have been counter-arguments to a lot of the points I've raised, including the possibility of a Cognitive Shadow of Aona being the voice that one hears when submerged in the Pool or that the feelings invoked are a direct effect of the Shard's Intent, both very much possible with what we've of other Shards like Ruin, Preservation, Cultivation, Odium... It could be that the location of the city was based on proximity to the pool instead of the other way around, it could also be sheer coincidence or something made the liquid Investiture of Devotion coalesce there ~Mistborn & Stormlight spoilers~ So how crazy did you find the first theory? And What did you think of the second theory? Do you have any other theories on the origin of Elantris?
  6. Ok, this theory might seem a little crazy, but if it turns out to actually be true, it would have a huge impact on the Cosmere! so, starting off: Devotion and Dominion were splintered, and their power was moved into the Cognitive Realm. in the Arcanim Unbounded essay about Sel, it says: Now, we have seen evidence that a self-aware Splinter could pick up a Shard, like [SH spoilers] Since Dominion and Devotion are already somewhat Reunited, they could potentially be picked up by a person, or a Seon, or a Skaze, or whatever. EXCEPT! this United Shard could already have been picked up, by the PLANET ITSELF(!), because it has ties to all three realms, enabling it to use the full power of the Shard, Connection to both of the shards, enabling it to pick it up easily, and a self-awareness, which could allow the Planet of Sel to choose for itself. This could be that something that might be happening on Sel that Khriss speculates about. What do you guys think? Could it be true, or has the taint on Saidin affected me more than I think?
  7. So Ruin&Preservation was just some weird opposites attract thing where one can't just be alone without the other interfering so that makes sense. Honor&Cultivation settled together because they're romantically involved so that one is quite obvious. However how did Aona and Skai end up together settling on the same planet when the shards they held don't seem to gel well by concept ? Do you guys think it is personal like they personally know each other enough that they trust each other to settle together ? Are they previously romantically involved as well ( tho Sanderson did say they were just business partners of sort but I think I read some wob there was something more) ? Or after picking up the shards did with their warped personality both made a conscious agreed decision together as they foresaw they would work out well for their personal shard intents ? It feels like their settling on the same planet together like how two friends/strangers who have different personalities just decide to become roommates or something. Their case is a curious as if I think about it Dominion and Devotion sounds almost as disastrous as R&P. Any relevant wobs ? Speculations ? Thoughts
  8. I'm going to just say right off the bat that I am by no means convinced that this is even likely to be true much less that it actually is, and it only just finished coming together in my head a few minutes ago in another one of my posts in which Autonomy was brought up. So for all I know, this is demonstrably false, but I thought I'd just put it out there. So for a while now, I've been trying (and failing) to wrap my brain around just what the heck is going on with Autonomy and why she seems to be acting so contrary to at least reasonable conceptions of what her intent would seem to indicate. What we seem to know about her is that 1) she's 'spreading' from planet to planet and installing avatars of her Investiture on them, whatever exactly that means, 2) she tends to discourage if not outright forbid in the case of Taldain any access to or from the planets under her dominion (pun definitely intended), and 3) that she tends to inspire or deliberately set herself or her avatars up as objects of worship among those on her planets. This has always struck me as extremely bizarre behaviour for the Shard of Autonomy, for which really only (2) could be argued as unsurprising. But then I remembered that there was a WOB in which someone had asked Brandon whether Autonomy was involved in the splintering of Devotion and Dominion, and Brandon answered in the affirmative, albeit only after they rephrased the question to be extremely broad to prevent him from RAFOing it on the spot ("was Autonomy involved in any way), which is so vague as to be compatible with practically anything, but oh well, just consider that one of the unproven assumptions of this theory. What occurred to me is that it almost seems like Autonomy is displaying behaviour consistent with and expected by Dominion and Devotion (albeit interpreted in the sense of 'subservience' and 'sycophantism' rather than 'love and compassion' as Aona seems to). That is to say, I don't think any of us would have been at all surprised to have learned that Dominion liked to spread from planet to planet and claim them for itself, or that a less benevolently-interpreted Devotion would like to set themself up as an object of worship and reverence, but that Autonomy would do those things is, at the very least, somewhat more surprising simply by virtue of it not being as expected given that Shardic intent. So my question is this: IF we assume for the sake of argument that Autonomy was in some way involved with the deaths of Devotion and Dominion, or of disposing of their 'remains' afterward so to speak, is there any chance that the uncontained Investiture of Dominion and Devotion could have in some sense 'contaminated' Autonomy's own Investiture (and maybe even Odium too for all we know, since he's really no different, just even worse) to some extent and instilled into her these tendencies that would be more expected for those two Shards? I mean she clearly doesn't hold their full Shards, that's not what I'm suggesting, but it doesn't seem entirely outside the realm of possibility that when the Investiture of two Shards comes into contact, for lack of a better term, some limited degree of melding occurs (it certainly did in Harmony's case, admittedly through completely different means). Looked at in this way, Autonomy's behaviour would no longer seem quite so counter-intuitive. She'd effectively be a single Shard in terms of power, but possess in addition to her primary attribute, a limited extent of two other Shards as well. Though admittedly, an obvious inconsistency with this theory is that Ruin and Preservation's Investiture had clearly been 'in contact' before and yet neither of them displayed any sort of 'intent blending', so clearly if this has any merit at all it would require the additional assumption that something different and possibly unique occurred on Sel that simply hasn't occurred since. Exactly what this is, I don't know. Does anyone have any thoughts?
  9. After the shattering, Odium splintered and killed the holders of (at least) three shards before arriving on Roshar. In the various timelines for the Cosmere I have seen constructed, Odium is always said to have splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel first, and then mortally wounded Ambition in the Threnodite system before Ambition was fully splintered, almost certainly by Odium, elsewhere (see, e.g. here, for example). Is there any WOB or anything that substantiates this order, because, based on the system overviews in AU, I presumed Odium went after and splintered Ambition before he went to Sel. Concerning Ambition, the Thredodite System overview says: Concerning Devotion and Dominion, the Selish System overview says: The Selish System article, also suggests that there was a fairly substantial period of time that Devotion and Dominion were on Sel before being destroyed, at least in human terms. There is no such suggestion in in the Threnodite Sytem article, though the coppermind article on Ambition makes it sound as though this was the case, or at least that there had been significant enough investiture once on Threnody to suggest it, all albeit without citations backing it up. It sounds to me, all told, that Odium went after Ambition first, soon after the shattering, and then went to Sel after Devotion and Dominion had been there for a fairly significant amount of time, at least from a human perspective. I think this is reinforced by the fact that Odium didn't defeat and Splinter Ambition outright, and that she was able to run away first after being mortally wounded. This suggests to me that Odium was still just figuring out how to splinter and not just kill the holders of other shards. I think Mistborn Secret history also suggested that splintering other shards was something shards had to learn, and that Ruin hadn't learned it, which was what allowed Kelsier, then Vin, then Sazed to take up preservation. Is there a reason to believe Odium went to Sel before going after Ambition, rather than after? If so, can you please share it? Thanks
  10. I posted this on General Brandon discussion, but then I realized it probably belongs here. So I recently restarted Elantris, and-I'm sure I'm not the first to see this- I noticed that "Domi" (as in merciful domi) sounded an awful lot like Dominion (DOMInion). I also noticed Hrathen say something along the lines of "ambition is one of the only emotions Jaddeth encourages, besides devotion. I think it may be possible that Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath are worshiping devotion and dominion, respectively? It does say in the coppermind that Domi comes from Aon Omi, meaning love, but I thought the coincidence was a little too strong. Also, the Derethi beliefs that Jaddeth lives in the ground hits a little too close to home for it to not be one of the shards. What do you guys think?
  11. One thing I'm curious about (and unsure where else to wonder about it) is what made Dominion and Devotion settle on Sel together in the first place? We know now that there was a kind of pact or agreement that Shards would stay away from each other, thanks to the Part 2 Epigraphs, and we know Ruin and Preservation paired off in part because they thought they could counterbalance each other and mitigate Ati's eventual corruption by his Intent, while Honor and Cultivation's vessels had a romantic connection. Autonomy seems to just like to meddle, and Odium seeks out other Shards to kill them. But why did Aona and Skai break the pact? Dominion and Devotion in some ways oppose each other but in other ways almost complement each other (ie the sense of nationalistic identity that fuels many of the magics on Sel can be seen as Devotion to one's Dominion or empire). So they're not an obvious counter to each other in such a way that they could balance or cancel each other out the way that Ruin and Preservation sought to, but neither are they an easy or obvious complement of Intents. Additionally, we have inklings that Skai was not such a great guy, so it would seem unlikely that he and Aona had anything like Honor and Cultivation's personal connection....unless Skai was corrupted by his Intent of Dominion similar to Ati's devolution into Ruin. So honestly, I'm at a loss as to what drew them together if its being near each other and violating this pact that put them on Odium's hit list in the first place. It's likely we simply just don't have enough information yet to draw any kind of actual conclusions, but Sel and its history and its Shards remains one of the most mysterious aspects of the cosmere to me, so this pact (albeit one that seems rather informal and more of 'guidelines' for Shards to follow rather than a hard and fast rule) and the fact that they broke it feels significant to me. Anyone else have any theories why?
  12. Devotion and Dominion are actually a "Spintered Shard" This post is a theory about the current situation of the Sel’s Shards. Maybe the title is a bit confusing but follow my thoughs. Let’s begin to some Cosmere’s “facts” wide accepted by everyone: Sel had two Shards: Devotion held by Aona and Dominion held by Skai Odium came to Sel, killed the Holders and Splintered the Shards. A little part of the Spinters gained sentience and became Seon and Skaze. The remain (massive) splinters of the two Shards merged together and became the Dor. The Dor is the core part of the Jesker religion, who see the Dor like an “overspirit” Another religion Shu-keseg workship the “unity of mind” From Shu-keseg came two branches: Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath Shu-Dereth involves about “unity through control” Shu-Korag involves about “unity through love” the religion derivated from Shu-keseg have as mantra quite the intent of the two Sel’s shards. Now after this (maybe too long) introduction, I will explain my theory: Now on Sel there aren't two different shards but only one. Devotion or Dominiom are gone, now we have only a new Shard, I like to call it “Unity” but we could call with the neutral name of DorShard. The problem is that DorShard is actually Splintered. This is my explanation: When Odium came to Sel, he killed both of Shardholders and then spintered twe two Shards. A little of the Shards’s Splinters gained sentience and now they are know as Seon and Skaze. The unsentient part of the Spinters from both Shards then began to merge together. Why Did they merge ? Becouse the Devotion and Dominion's intents (or mandates if you prefer) are quite similar, they both were focused about bring Unity but using different methods. If you find this interpretation already heard, it is because it’s quite the same story of Shu-Keseg (but from the ending to the beginning) and I think that Keshu was inspired by this truth and his disciples’s shism was about the previous Shards’ situation. Now the DorShard is actually an unique Shard (like Harmony) but without host and probably Splintered (if the merging doesn’t put the Shard together). If now somebody “pick up the Dor” (and I don't know how it could be made), he will ascend to became a “Double Class” Shard like Harmony. EDIT: For the lazy sharder the main point in few words is: The Dor is a corpse of a new shard, not the patchwork of two corpse of shards
  13. When Raoden falls into the pool in elantris he hears a voice. If the two shards on Sel are shattered than who is the voice he's hearing?
  14. Really wacky theory, and probably wrong, but hear me out. First off, "Benevolence" is the name I am giving to the Shard that would come of a combination of Dominion and Devotion. Came up with the name when hearing Raoden describe himself as a dictator. He is a dictator and a tyrant, embodying Dominion in his control of New Elantris, at the same time, his people love him, and not only does he devote himself to them, he teaches them to devote themselves to their work to escape the pain, thus also embodying Devotion. Best way to describe this to me would be a Benevolent Dictator. Let me know if you have a better name for a combination of Dominion and Devotion (Kinda like how Harmony is the name of Ruin+Preservation). Part two of the theory. Haven't looked this up too much, so it might already be accepted knowledge, but here you go. Odium shattered both Dominion and Devotion. This destroyed their consciousnesses, as well as locking their power in the cognitive realm, in a shattered form. I am assuming that this is what is making travel in Sel's area of Shadesmar dangerous; the shattered power of a shard is searching for purpose and is quite volatile. The Dor is in fact the collection of Devotion and Dominion's power, stuck in the cognitive realm and trying to escape. Something in the shattering also stops it from reforming a consciousness, though I'm not sure if that is by keeping it apart (shattered) or it is through some other means. However, I think it is safe to assume that Dominion and Devotion are united as a single power now, almost like a shattered Harmony might be. Part three has to do with Raoden's Dor attacks. For reference, he is the relevant part of Chapter 37: Here, he feels the Dor, as this vast power, making worlds seem insignificant. However, there are a couple lines I'd like to call attention to. First "without crack". To me this seems to say that the shattered pieces aren't separated physically. No, to me it seems to say that something is keeping the sentience of the shards shattered and unformed (thus the "It was not evil, or even sentient." line), while the power is somewhat whole and unite in the Cognitive realm, even if it is volatile and dangerous. A shard's power tends to try and find a host, preferably one that can actually hold the shard (ie has a similar character to it's ideal). To me it seems like Raoden is the first person who is both an Elantrian (read, connection to the Dor) and the odd mix of both Devotion and Dominion's intents. This annotation from Elantris' 31st chapter would seem to confirm this: With a bit of twisting, those two traits could be seen as Dominion and Devotion. Seems suspicious that Brandon would use the term "two defining traits" if intent plays such a big part in Shard lore and mechanics. So, what I think is happening is that the Dor is trying to find a host, but something that Odium did when shattering it is stopping it. And any attempt to absorb the shard is extremely painful to the host, due to a lingering shattering effect from Odium to stop a new host or due to the volatility of the current state of the Dor. Also, for some reason, being a fallen elantrian allows the Dor to try and take you as a host, assuming you have the connection required. If there ever was another Elantrian who, like Raoden, had the character to hold the Dor, then they have perished and been forgotten by the time Raoden becomes an elantrian. All that to say, I think that Raoden, after becoming settled as an Elantrian wouldn't have given up his passion with understanding the Dor. And that it would keep trying to take him. Maybe as a full elantrian, the effects would be different than pain, but I don't know. Regardless, Raoden would figure it out, and would eventually take on the power of both Dominion and Devotion, becoming the shard Benevolence. Other points: Somehow the Cognitive realm becomes safe enough for travel some time after Elantris, as Galladon finds his way to Roshar. It would make sense if someone has taken in all of that volatile power. The Dor attacks was one of the unresolved mysteries of Elantris. Why was it important to the plot? Just so there was urgency to Raoden after the bands joined? (as per the annotations.) I don't think so. The Dor attacks seem too well thought out. To me it smells like a strand of a Cosmere level plot. Something to lead into a sequel. The "glowing" during the Dor attacks would seem similar to the description of Vin right before her body melted away. In fact, here is another passage from Elantris which almost says this. It's when Raoden gets attacked by the Dor during a conversation with Sarene: So, there you go. My theory is that some time after Elantris (maybe in a sequel) Raoden takes up the mantle of the shattered power of both Dominion and Devotion, becoming a shard who's intent is very similar to that of a benevolent dictator. Thus the name Benevolence. Edit: Thanks to @The One Who Connects for catching that I wrote Domination instead of Dominion a couple times.
  15. So, about a week ago, I posted a theory about Raoden holding the Dual-Shard of Devotion and Dominion, which I'm fairly sure has been shut down, though I think it could possibly still happen. Here I want to discuss the process of rebuilding a splintered shard. It includes a minor theory as to how the splintering of those two shards happened. As a side note, up till now I've been referring to a Dominion/Devotion blend as Benevolence. I'm not longer sure. Maybe Mastery? I'd chosen Benevolence, because that was the Devotion/Dominion blend I saw in AonDor and Raoden, but after looking at all of the Selish magic systems, I think Mastery applies more. Devotion to developing the system so as to get greater Dominion. At the same time, it might depend on how this shard was created. Ruin and Preservation became Harmony under Sazed, but could have become something else under different circumstances. At least, I think I remember a WoB saying that Ruin+Preservation could have become Contention, or some other equivalent. To begin, here is what I believe to Dominion and Devotion (I think it is mostly head-cannon, though there is some WoB support): Odium killed the two vessels, separated the investiture from the shards and shoved it into the CR (forming the Dor, then splintered what was left of the shard into as many pieces as he could, which were then scattered. These pieces slowly gained consciousness, and became the Seons and Skaze that we see on Sel. This is based on a couple WoBs. One that says that shards without vessels will try to get a vessel, or will slowly reform a consciousness. And another one confirming that the Seons/Skaze are splinters of Devotion/Dominion respectively. So, I see a few processes that would work to recombine these shards. 1. Compressing Seons and Skaze to kill them and picking up the remaining power. If pressing Preservation and Ruin up against each other kills the two different vessels (see Vin and Ati's deaths) because they are opposite, then I think that compressing a Seon and a Skaze together would kill them both, leaving behind the shard pieces from each. Left alone, they would reform into a Seon and a Skaze. However, someone who was attuned to both Dominion and Devotion (like how Sazed was attuned to both Preservation and Ruin) was nerby, that person might be able to draw in the splinters. Do this enough times and you'd ascend. There would still be splinters, but once you ascended, it would be easier to regain the other pieces. Once you have the Shards reunited, but with the Investiture still in the CR, then I think the new dual-shard (Mastery/Benevolence) would be able to go to the CR and scoop it back up. It hasn't happened because since the Dor was made, there hasn't ever been enough shard splinters together with a consciousness for it to do so. 2. Merging Seons and Skaze pair by pair, then merging the different pairs into one. However, if compressing a Seon and a Skaze doesn't kill them, but instead merges them, then you could create a ton of splinters of Mastery/Benevolence, in the which each splinter has equal parts Dominion and Devotion. Once most of the splinters have been turned from Seons/Skaze into the new dual-splinter, then you could take the new splinters and merge them together, thus forming a Shard. Unlike the last one, it doesn't involve a human becoming a vessel, but instead relies on the consciousness that a shard makes if left alone. However, the process of reclaiming the Dor would be very similar to that of step 1. 3. Merging each shard individually. However, if you can't merge Seons and Skaze at all, then you might need to use a more roundabout method. I'd attempt to find a way to combine two Seons into one, and two Skaze into one. Over time, you'd end up with the two shard back, without the portion of their investiture that is locked in the Dor. Here it is more complex. The investiture in the Dor is equal parts Dominion and Devotion. However, that power is merged. I suspect that you'd need a temporary alliance between Devotion and Dominion where they work together to separate the Dor into their respective pieces. Then, if you wanted to merge them, you'd have the Vin suicide assault and a new vessel taking both (HoA plot all over again). Or if you want things simpler, use the suicide assault first, then reclaim the Dor as a single piece. Mastery or Benevolence. If you use method 1, then which one came out would depend on who the new vessel was. Take someone like Raoden, and I think you'd get Benevolence. Take someone like Wan ShaiLu, and you'd get something closer to Mastery. Method 2 would probably yield Mastery. And Method 3 Would yeild the seperate shards, which if killed and merged a la Sazed, would have the same result as method 1.
  16. This WoB suggests Rayse had multiple motives for killing Shards. (Source.) Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards [to splinter] because - Brandon Sanderson: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list. Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person? Brandon Sanderson: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But he then got trapped in the Rosharan system. “In this case”? Did Odium have other motives than Shard “rivalry” in other cases? I speculate that Rayse detoured from Ambition to kill his parents Aona and Skai. I characterize Devotion and Dominion’s Mandates (Intents) as “Love” and “Control.” That strikes me as a typical “parenting” combo – one parent keeps the kids under control while the other nurtures and loves them unconditionally. I believe Brandon intended this parenting combination. Devotion and Dominion had a pre-Shattering relationship and came to Sel together. Devotion’s love wanted to grant mortals the gift of magic. Dominion agreed, but only under tight controls. Hence, Sel’s “programmatic” form-based magic. It’s understandable why Odium sought Ambition first. It’s understandable why he later sought Honor, his magical antithesis. (Honor binds; Odium severs.) But why Devotion? Dominion maybe, but both of them? And so early in his killing spree? What kind of threat could they pose to chase them down first? Compared to his other killings, Odium murdered Skai and Aona in a particularly vicious way. It was personal. Odium wasn’t content to just kill them. He stomped on their souls and stuffed them into the Cognitive Realm. It’s the Shardic equivalent of cutting up your victim and hiding the pieces in the basement. Hoid in the First Letter describes Rayse as “among the most loathsome, crafty and dangerous individuals I had ever met.” That makes you wonder what the criteria were for participating in the Shattering.
  17. So I am rereading elantris for the first time in probably about 6 years, and I discovered an interesting sentence. I am not sure eif this has been mentioned before so I am sorry if this is old news. On page 41 when Hrathen is talking to Dilaf: He would be Hrathren's slave, if that slavery would carry him higher. It was a very Fjordell thing to do - ambition was the one emotion Jaddeth would accept as readily as devotion. This makes me think that perhaps devotion and ambition aremail connected in some way. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Ire worried about shades? This is all over the place and I apologize but I had to post to see if anyone else had caught that before.
  18. Do other types of investiture suffer/benefit (depending on how you want to view it) from overuse of their powers similar to misting savants?
  19. In The Emperor's Soul, Shai mentions that any material can be used to make a soulstamp, but crystal is the best material for making stamps that take. However, few people use it because it is difficult to carve, and Soulstone is almost as good, as well as easy to carve. In Khriss's essay about Sel in Arcanum Unbounded, she says that So my theory is: THINGS THAT ARE PHYSICALLY ORDERLY ARE THE MOST SELF AWARE. Crystals are orderly. That is the definition of a crystal. Shai mentions wood as something that is very difficult to carve. That makes sense, as wood is not orderly. Soulstone is different because it is a part of Devotion and Dominion. It came from those rocks that fell from the sky that the MaiPon used to worship. So the only advantage that crystal could possibly have over it is its order. Ideas?
  20. We recently had a WoB that part of the reason Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion was to prevent them from finding new Vessels, or worse, combining into a hybrid Shard like Harmony, gaining some form of sentience and seeking out a Host. This got me to thinking, who could possibly have embodied the opposing forces generated by Devotion and Dominion well enough to absorb both Shards? Who has a strong desire to dominate those around her, while remaining devoted to them? Is a human the only option for a Vessel? This is the point where my musings become far less serious: The only answer I could come up with was my dog. She has an Alpha personality, and feels the need to dominate and subjugate others around her, thoroughly. Yet she remains completely devoted to her family and the members of her pack, willing to put herself in harms way to defend them. So my proposed candidate for a bearer of the fused Shards of Dominion and Devotion after they un-splinter, is a dog, who will proceed to gain greater intellect from absorbance of Investiture.
  21. theory

    *After reflecting on this, I've changed the name of this theory from "Why the Dor Exists in the Cognitive Realm" to "The Origin of the Dor." I think this better captures the Intent of my post! In a conversation over on Yata's Theory about the splintering and death of Aona (Devotion) and Skai (Dominion), I've realized that I would like to propose a theory about the Dor and why it exists in the Cognitive Realm. I believe that the Dor has always existed, intentionally (not the result of splintering). Aona and Skai were lovers, whose relationship was a perfect example of "unity." When they took up the power of the shards Devotion and Dominion, this relationship remained, and they went to Sel together. While we see Preservation and Ruin working in direct opposition to one another on Scadrial, Devotion and Dominion were fused together in perfect unity, guided by the relationship of their Vessels. Aona and Skai created all things together on Sel, placing Innate Investiture in all things in the form of the Dor (similar to Preservation). Jesker is the most ancient religion we know about on Sel, and per Galladon it teaches that the Dor exists in everything. To me, this predates any information we otherwise have about Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth, which only appeared within the last few centuries or so on Sel (by the influence of Keshu, a possible worldhopper). By why would the Dor, this divine force of power, exist in the Cognitive Realm? Because, like so many things in life, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS! When two people come together, entering a state of intimacy with one another, they remain two separate individuals, yet create a third, new thing called a relationship. The relationship is a separate entity from both parties, and yet they are both actively participating in it. This new "thing" is the cognitive creation of both people involved, the fusion of shared hopes, dreams, goals, plans, etc. While you can't touch a relationship, it is absolutely a real thing, with power and influence that exists even after someone dies or the relationship ends. This is what I propose occurred with Aona and Skai. They fused the divine power of Devotion and Dominion (which exists in the Spiritual Realm separately) into one new power/shard we understand as the Dor/Unity. This Unity shard never existed in the Spiritual or Physical Realms, yet just like a relationship, it was completely real. It makes sense to me that something like this would have to exist in the Cognitive Realm, as it was made reality by Aona and Skai - the example of perfect, unified love. Brandon, writing from the Christian influence of his own life, would be very familiar with the Biblical concepts of the origin of relationships when God spoke to Adam and Eve: Aona and Skai, bound together as one, created the "one flesh" that we know as the Dor. This was all well and good until Rayse (Odium) stepped in and killed them. *Pause for moment of sadness :*( While the participants in the relationship died (Aona and Skai), the relationship itself (Unity) lived on, albiet very messily because now, that power resting in the Cognitive Realm, originally unified and guided by two divine Identities, has no divine Identity other than the original Intents of Devotion and Dominion to guide it. Plus, whatever effect splintering a shard has on said Intents is also affecting it. There it is! =) I know much of this is speculation, but until we learn more from an Elantris sequel/prequel, this is how I understand it!
  22. This only dawned on me when I started thinking about Splinters - because Seons are not Splinters; the Aons inside them are Splinters. They're not quite the equivalent of spren as spren are Splinters themselves. Closer pararell is to Returned, beings with a Splinter at their core. But I digress. You see, there's something important, obvious and unnoticeable about Seons. Ready?
  23. Brandon says that Adonalsium left only “Ambient Magic” on each Shardworld – magic that is part of the natural ecosystem but cannot be commanded by mortals. The magic of First of the Sun in Sixth of the Dusk and the pre-human Rosharan ecosystem are examples. I propose that the Dor is the Investiture Adonalsium left on Sel and that it fuels all of Sel’s pre-Shattering Ambient Magic. Devotion and Dominion later made changes to the Dor to allow mortals to command it. Adonalsium placed the Dor into Sel’s ground and thereby created Sel’s “location-based” magic – different Ambient Magic in different Physical Realm locations. Evidence of the Dor’s ground location: (i) Uncontrolled Dor caused the chasm explosion; (ii) Arelenes use the phrase “Domi below”; and (iii) when Raoden finished the “chasm line,” the Dor “exploded from the ground.” Here’s how I think the Dor worked before Devotion and Dominion showed up: 1. The Dor forges a Connection between the lifeforms of a place and the place itself. Each location’s magical “nutrients” leach into the location’s soil and become part of the food chain. Every local lifeform absorbs this Investiture. 2. The Connection between person and place resembles the bond between Splinter and Magic User. The stronger the bond, the more effective the magic usage. Distance is one factor in the Connection’s strength. Brandon says “bloodlines” is another. Children of parents from two different places may have a weaker Connection to a parent’s home territory than the parent, even if the child currently lives there 3. Sel seems an exercise in “speciation,” the evolutionary process by which isolated biological populations evolve into separate species. On Sel, the evolutionary differences are magical. We don’t know how or why these magical populations were initially isolated. Perhaps Sel is veined with aluminum. I previously thought Sel’s location-based magic results from the Shards’ Splintering. I now think location-based Ambient Magic predates the Splintering. Brandon says his “hard-core fans” are not “thinking right” about Sel’s location-based magic. I believe he means we think too much about the Shards’ influence and not enough about Adonalsium’s. That conclusion probably applies to all magic systems, except for Scadrial’s, the only planet created by Shards.
  24. You know, I think we kind of take it for granted how much we know about the cosmere. I remember not so long ago that Sel and Elantris was a complete mystery. We all argued over what Aona's Shard was, mostly to no avail. We had no idea about how the Shaod happened, and virtually no clue to how the Dor worked. These two mysteries have made theorizing about Sel pretty hard, to say the least. With the knowledge of Aona's Shard being Devotion, the theory that people who are particularly devoted to something get taken by the Shaod makes perfect sense, and matches with the Principle of Intent. Though a new mystery arose with Forgery and Bloodsealing: why are Selish magics so region locked, and what's so important about the land? Well, Kerry has pretty much answered this here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3363-devotion-dominion-and-magic-on-sel/ So really, the prime theoretical difficulty with Sel is the Dor. That's what this theory will hope to explain. Sel is very unique in its magic. Scadrial makes sense having three distinct magic systems, but Sel is way different, despite having just two powers. Even discounting the fact that there are way more than three magics on Sel, they are odd: they all channel the Dor, not Devotion or Dominion independently. They all focus the same power. And that's very bizarre, considering Scadrial's magics. Why does the Dor appear to act some homogenous thing? Any way you slice and dice it, it's odd. Is the Dor Devotion's power? No, because the Dakhor magic isn't really accessed in a way in line with Devotion--it really feels a lot more Dominion-like. Dakhor channels the Dor just as AonDor and Forgery do. So, clearly the Dor is some bizarre combination of Devotion and Dominion, for some reason. And no one has (to my knowledge) really given a complete treatise on why that might be. Any reasoning on the Dor's nature would need to explain how it is related to both Devotion and Dominion, and why it is this homogenous entity. It's certainly homogenous enough that Brandon has no qualms saying that virtually every Selish magic channels the Dor. First of all, I'm kind of assuming you've already read the Letter, which says Devotion and Dominion have Splintered. Additionally, much of the power left there is not under anything's control: Why does Brandon say "much" of the power on Sel? Well, the Seons and Skaze are related to Splinters, so those are the things controlling part of the power. But the rest? Presumably the Dor. So what is the Dor? The answer, I believe, comes straight from this quote: This blew me away. But, considering how important I find a Shard's intent, it's not exactly surprising that a way of altering the Shards is really fascinating to me. There's a discussion on this particular quote over here, and Windrunner and Senor Feesh suggested that this may have happened to Devotion and Dominion--that they are intermingled as well. If you'll allow me, I'd like to name this "intermingling" effect as convergence, as something this important--Shards beginning to merge--certainly would warrant an in-world term, I think. It also has a nice parallel with "conflux," which is what Brandon named a book that has to do with multiple worlds in a very direct fashion (instead of in the background, as things are now in the books). So, Ruin and Preservation are currently converging. This is because a common mind is holding them. I propose that Devotion and Dominion are also converging as well. But, the obvious question next is, why the heck would they be converging? Presumably, Sazed holding both Ruin and Preservation--one mind holding two powers--imposes some Cognitive change on the Shards. In the Realmatic terms like Shai, they are like two bricks in a wall, and they begin to think of themselves as a wall, not two separate bricks. This is, I think, the most intuitive way to explain Ruin and Preservation converging: the powers themselves are beginning to think of themselves as part of a greater whole, thus intermingling them to be considered Harmony. I would only assume that the longer Sazed holds these two power, the more Ruin and Preservation will see themselves as Harmony instead, perhaps eventually literally becoming one Shard permanently. As of now, they can still be split, so that indicates to me that this process definitely hasn't finished yet. Though, I suppose you could say that even a Shard isn't permanent, as Odium certainly Splintered Devotion and Dominion. The exact specifics on Ruin and Preservation's convergence to Harmony is certainly worth discussing, but let's switch back to Devotion and Dominion. Obviously whatever happened with Sazed didn't at all happen with Devotion and Dominion; no common mind holds them both. In fact, they are both more broken than ever. But that may be exactly the key. Whereas Ruin and Preservation in the order that Sazed's control of them imposes, Devotion and Dominion and both similar in that they are both without holders and pretty broken. I propose that this also makes Devotion and Dominion converge, and this combined power is exactly what the Dor is. Think of two vases, one white, and one black--Devotion and Dominion. Now throw them on the ground, so hard that they break into tiny pieces. Collect that pile, mix them up, and zoom out. If the pieces are small enough, the pile no longer looks like black or white; it looks grey instead. When two things are broken, they can combine in new ways, like two liquids forming a completely new mixture. Now I imagine this is a little different in Devotion and Dominion's case, as their pieces would be still tied to their respective intent, but I think eventually, this dramatic change from Odium Splintering them would mean that the leftover fragments would see themselves as a part of a new whole. After all, they both aren't being held, and are both broken. I think this makes a lot of sense as for why the Dor is the way that it is. (Now, you may wonder why I didn't use the word "Splinter" to describe these pieces of Devotion and Dominion, considering Odium Splintered them. Well, we know the Aons at the heart of the Seons are Splinters, and to no one's surprise Brandon hinted that Skaze are similar: The Seons and Skaze--presumably Devotion and Dominion's Splinters--are not enough of a release valve. So this means that there is a lot of power that isn't under anything's control. Duh, since there was no indication the Dor acted any other way. In lieu of a cosmere term to call the pieces of Devotion and Dominion's power, that's why I stayed with vague words like "fragments." We just can't really say they are Splinters, or anything about them.) I totally understand if the analogy I made isn't particularly compelling, but it certainly matches with our conception with the Dor being a unified, mindless whole. It fits with those quotes above. But, maybe you want a little more persuading, so let's talk about some consequences of Devotion and Dominion's convergence, especially on magic. Before Devotion and Dominion's Splintering, magic worked differently on Sel (though I can't find that quote right now). It isn't a big leap to say that perhaps the regionalizing of Selish magic happened due to the Splintering of the Shard. Maybe before the Splintering, there were three magics on Sel, like Scadrial. Kerry's theory about Identity, people have an Identity tied their nationality, culture, and heritage. Her theory basically explains in how magic can be tied to the land, and how it lines up with Devotion and Dominion's intents. But why might have Devotion and Dominion's Splintering even had this effect of tying the magic to the land? Well, Allomancy requires a connection to Preservation, and on a less magical level, people that are freaking ruinous would use Hemalurgy. Perhaps, due to Devotion and Dominion's Splintering and this convergence, people can't use magic with a connection to Devotion or Dominion directly, because they don't exist in the same way. Instead, the "largest" thing that people have a connection or Identity to--instead these all-powerful Shards--is their culture and nationality. People with a strong Devotion or Dominion with that, as Kerry's theory suggests, would now be able to use magic. It's all because Devotion and Dominion are Splintered, and their power doesn't have as strong of identity, so it is shaped by the identity of manmade, regional borders. If anything, the Reod and the Chasm teaches us that these magics are actually very fluid. Aons that worked a thousand years ago may need to be refined. Perhaps as regions and countries change, or as ethnicities converge (see what I did there?) entirely different magics can form. Now, I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure if each regional magic is of Devotion or Dominion explicitly. After all, that's been the standing assumption with AonDor: it's of Devotion, not Dominion, and likewise Dakhor is of Dominion, not Devotion. But, it's a lot harder with ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing to decide. I am leaning to the idea that each magic can be in line with any sort of combination of Devotion and Dominion. Kerry connects all regional magics with both Devotion and Dominion, so I don't find this hard to believe. So, maybe presently on Sel, a magic is a certain percentage Devotion and Dominion. Unlike Scadrial where magics are 100% Preservation, 100% Ruin, or a 50/50 split, on Sel you could have 73%/27%. Who knows. It's entirely possible that we think of AonDor and Dakhor as Devotion and Dominion-heavy magics because the Seons and Skaze, which are related to Splinters of Devotion and Dominion, exist in these two regions, and so tilt the region's balance toward one Shard or the other. In fact, though I totally riffed that just now, it seems to make sense with the Identity idea. A region's Identity would be related to a ton of different factors, and maybe the nature of a given culture tilts the way a region's magic accesses Devotion and Dominion. Here's an interesting quote on that note: So it's the exact nature of the Dor which makes it regionalized. I don't think the Dor has an intent, like Harmony does. The Dor is a product of chaos and brokenness. When something changes in the Physical and Cognitive, this can have a reflection in the Dor, so these distinct cultural Identities have an effect on the Dor. What do you think? Admittedly, while this works really well for Sel, I'm not sure what is different on Roshar, which despite having Honor Splintered, has a non-regionalized magic in Surgebinding. It could just be that the nature of Honor and Cultivation don't result in regionalization. But, it would explain how some spren are of Honor and Cultivation. It's hard to say at this point, and while there can be more to this than I'm catching here, it seems very theoretically solid for Sel.
  25. Fallen Elantrians put into the Shardpool are described as "dissolving". Several times. However, when Hoid uses Pools to transit between Realms, he just dissappears. In Elantris, his scene with skaze, he is not described as dissolving. Secondly, why would Galladon's father choose the heart sickness to kill him if he could just go into the Pool to pass away? Furthermore, the famous mural is "depicting worldhopping" (source). Not funeral ceremony. It seems the pre-Reod Elantrians did not use it for suicide but for transit into Cognitive Realm. The question is: why are fallen Elantrians dissolving instead of transiting into Cognitive Realm?