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Found 7 results

  1. The idea that the 16 Shards can be categorized in groups of 4 (a la Mistborn metals) is not a new one, and I think Dawnshard is going to further support that theory. The mural that seems to depict The Shattering of Adonalsium and imbues Rysn with her Command is described as having 16 "mostly symmetrical pieces" grouped into fours. So let's make groups of 4! I'm sure there's going to be tons of different theories on how the Shards are organized. Even when trying to find commonalities between all the Shards, there's bound to be people who see different patterns than others. Let's start with what we know, or at least what we think we know... About the Dawnshards in general: The Dawnshards are "the four primal Commands that created all things" The Dawnshards were used to undo Adonalsium itself Both a Command and Intent are required to use "the most powerful forms of Surgebinding [Magic]" that ordinarily "transcends traditional mortal understanding." These are demands "on a level no person could ever manage alone" -- a single person would not be able to handle wielding this combined power. So the Dawnshards predate the Shattering of Adonalsium and thus cannot have been created by the Shattering. They were used to create all things -- the power of creation, potentially wielded by Adoalsium, who is a deity. The people (Dragon, Human, mortal or immortal, but otherwise just people, not deities) who Shattered Adonalsium would have been incapable of using a Command on their own, even with the proper Intent. -- Could they have been required to work in groups of four? I think perhaps four people with similar Intents likely were needed to use each Command, and then the four Commands must have been used together to kill God. Four groups of four, with each person having a specific Intent that somewhat related to the Command they were helping to wield. And what do we know about the Commands specifically: Rysn's Command seems to have a theme, which is Change. "Accept it. Know it. CHANGE." "It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change." Rysn seems to be able to appreciate colors and tastes much more clearly after being imbued with the Command, which is similar to the effects of investiture created by Endowment (Breaths, Nalthis) "Storms. Was it her, or did this tea taste extra good? She inspected it, then glanced at the sunlight pouring through the porthole. Was it . . . brighter than usual? Why did the colors in her room look so exceptionally vivid all of a sudden?" Rysn also appreciates the musicality in Drlwan's voice -- is this another effect similar to that of a Heightening? Or is Rysn potentially hearing the Rhythms of Roshar? "Strange, how she saw the contrast of shadows much more starkly now. And . . . why did Drlwan’s voice sound more musical?" The Command agrees(?) with Rysn's decision to let Cord keep her Shardplate out of tradition. Because it's the honorable thing to do? Because it's a gift that Rysn has endowed to Cord? Tradition, doing something because it has been done before, actually seems to be somewhat in opposition to the theme of "Change," so I feel this is important to explore. "'Cord discovered it,' Rysn said. 'It’s traditional to let the one who first claims a Shard keep it.' The Command pulsed with warmth as she said that." So based on this information, I feel pretty sure that we can at least begin to categorize the Shards. Everything that follows here is just my best guess at a grouping. CHANGE -- "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change." Endowment -- Must be, based on the changes Rysn is experiencing. Even though I personally feel like it's a stretch to put this here. Advancement? The addition of things, or gaining of new things, to improve or grow? Cultivation -- Growth, personal improvement, etc. Could be the source of Rysn beginning to hear the Rhythms. Definitely belongs in this category. Ruin -- Entropy, decay, mortality. Definitely belongs in this category. ? SURVIVE -- The will of a god to create enduring life, that extends itself into infinity even beyond it's own death. The power to survive. Preservation -- Stability, safety, unchanging. Definitely belongs in this category, and really the basis for why I think "SURVIVE" or "LIVE" must be a command -- because Kelsier certainly hears the Command to SURVIVE in Mistborn, and it is not coming from Leras. Autonomy -- Self-reliance, individualism, independence. The ability to survive while depending on only yourself. Definitely belongs in this category. The unknown shard "who just wants to hide and survive." -- Obviously belongs in this category even though we don't know what the true intent is. ? UNITE -- The will of a god to bind things, to conncet people with eachother and with the land and life around them. The power to unite. Honor -- Oaths, connecting people to eachother, binding them to their words and traditions. Obviously belongs in this category, and the basis for why I think "UNITE" or "CONNECT" must be a command -- because Dalinar certainly hears the Command to UNITE all throughout SA, and it is not the Stormfather, nor is it Tanavast. Dominion -- Connecting people to the land, and to eachother with political power and territory. This one may be a stretch, but it's my best guess. I think it probably belongs in this category. ? ? CARE -- The will of a god to create meaning and purpose, to demand that life exists for a reason. The power to care. Odium -- Pasion, love, hatred, emotion, motivation (though "Motivation" would be a great Shard name on its own). Definitely belongs in this category. Devotion -- Purpose, worship, crusades/quests. This one is also a stretch; honestly I have the hardest time with the Selish Shards because their Intents are confusing to me. But I believe this one belongs here. You devote yourself to a mission or a purpose in life, whatever that may be.. Ambition -- Personal goals, enthusiasm, striving to achieve. If devotion belongs here then Ambition certainly does as well. ? If Wisdom is the Shard that just wants to "hide and survive" then it belongs under the SURVIVE Command. But if Wisdom is a completely different shard, then I would want to probably put it under the CHANGE command, because knowledge changes you. Actually... now that I think about it, I think there may be two Shards here. "Wisdom" is a thing that you have whereas "Knowledge" is something that you gain with time and experience and experimentation. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that "Wisdom" is the shard that wants to survive and hide, and keep its secrets, and just study the world as it is without affecting the outcome, and that there is another shard along the lines of "Knowledge" or "Discovery" that is about change through experiences. Anyway, just had to write down my own thoughts. I'm really interested to see how other people categorize the shards. And I'm also interested in thoughts on my categorizations and would love for people to poke holes in it or improve it or change it around so it fits better. What do you guys think?
  2. So, I've been reading up on Intent and commands and have been trying to make sense of what they are, and what exactly the difference is between then. and I've come up with a bit of a theory. basically, commands are molds for investiture, and intents are more subtle ways of affecting of investiture interacts with the world, after it has been molded by a command. my basic premise is that for investiture to do anything it must be first molded by a command. investiture, on it's own (without a command) cannot do anything. I don't mean just for awakenings, but for ALL forms of magic, from allomancy to surgebinding. the intent can then modify how that investiture is used exactly. in a very loose analogy, you could think of commands as being a sort of hardware, and that intents are sort of software. where the software is far easier to modify than the hardware, and the software helps dictate how the hardware works. I also believe that commands do not require a sapience/sentience/intelligence, but intents do. i feel like this is best illustrated with a few examples. ROSHAR consider soulcasting. (according to my theory) all soulcasting involves a single command. but the various types of soulcasting are just manifestations of different intents. so soulcasting a material to metal or smoke both involve the same command, but with different intents. now consider soulcaster fabrials, all soulcaster fabrials have the same command, and the reason different gemstones perform different kinds of soulcasting is due to the intents of the spren inside the gemstone. that's why soulcasters that use fabrials cannot soulcast things into whatever material they require, because the humans wielding the soulcasters do not directly manipulate investiture, so they cannot will their intent into the investiture. or consider lashings, I would say that windrunners (and all other orders) each have 2 commands at their disposal, one related to each power they have. so windrunners have a command for gravitation and one for adhesion. so when Kaladin lashes himself, the lashing itself is a command, but the direction he lashes to is dependent on his intent. SCADRIAL allomancy is quite interesting, because I believe that none of it uses intent in any form consider iron, when ingested allows people to pull metal towards them. and that's it. because no misting is ever directly manipulating investiture, they are not able to control it according to their intents, so they can only use the commands associated with a metal, giving them far less flexibility. in hemalurgy, there is some aspect of intent in terms of actually taking the powers. you dont really choose what powers you get, that's all based on the hemalurgic command associated with the metal. so intent only affects whether or not you are actually taking a power or just stabbing someone. whereas the command is what effects what power/attribute is stolen. NALTHIS the way commands work in Nalthis is that to simply create a command requires visualization. and the more complex the command the more complicated the visualization. now i think there is a visualization involved in both the command and the intent. and the same command given with different intents will do different things, but the command is far more important than the intent. like say the command "fetch keys", depending on the intent given it will fetch keys it will perhaps fetch keys in different ways, but to an extent. if you say, want to awaken an object to get on a ship to a different continent, infiltrate a bank, get the keys to their vault and then swim all the way back to you, that's gonna take a lot more than just intent
  3. I theorize... A Command is a directive for Investiture to do something. Intent determines how Investiture does that something. Adonalsium used the four Commands to create the cosmere from raw Investiture. The four Commands are different aspects of one Command: “Create!” “Change” is the process of creation. A second Command relates to the substance/structure Change acts on. A third defines the cosmere’s operating rules that limit Change’s scope. The fourth Command, which @asmodeus first suggested, grants life – sentience. Shard Intents represent different aspects of each Command. What Is a Command? Posters point out how Awakening Commands resemble what I’ll call Divine Commands in this paragraph. The power of an Awakening Command largely depends on how well the Awakener visualizes the Command. Adonalsium's omniscience – the “understanding of a deity” – makes his Divine Command so much more powerful and precise than any Awakening Command could be. Yet text suggests the “Change” Command is the Investiture equivalent of between 50 (aura recognition) and 200 (perfect pitch) Breaths. At most Change equates to 600 Breaths (perfect color recognition). Relationship Between Commands and Intents A Command can direct any Investiture. I believe that Investiture’s Intent determines how the Investiture executes the Command. Example: I think cosmere Change means changing a person or object's Spiritual aspect. To me that involves making, changing, or breaking a person or object’s Connections, or destroying the person/object altogether. I believe Honor, Cultivation, Odium, and Ruin respectively perform those functions. Commanding Honor to Change an object will bind the object to something else. Commanding Cultivation to Change an object will transform the object into something else. Commanding Odium to Change an object will break that object’s Connections to something else (IMO). And Commanding Ruin to Change an object will destroy the object. FWIW, coincidentally (and conveniently) Change and these Shards are now all on Roshar in force, Ruin via Nightblood. The Four Commands “Change” seems sufficient to create by itself if given something to act on. I think Change is the means of creation. Everything new derives from something else, just as Adonalsium changed raw Investiture into the cosmere. Commands like “Join” or “Persist/Endure” or “Destroy” to me are just forms of Change or resistance to it. Change acts on some substance or “Structure.” I suggest a second Command might relate to what Adonalsium Changed raw Investiture into – the cosmere’s Investiture/matter/energy matrix made manifest in the Physical Realm. This includes the three Realmic aspects of everything from subatomic particles to planets, stars, and space itself. There’s no necessary reason the cosmere should look like our universe. I speculate it does because Adonalsium “Structures” the cosmere that way. A third Command might relate to the cosmere’s operating “Rules.” Rules limit Change’s scope. Examples include Realmic interactions, cosmere thermodynamics, and other cosmere physics principles. Perception’s cosmere role may also fall under the Rules rubric. I agree with Asmodeus the fourth Command may relate to the grant of “Life/Sentience.” Brandon says one of the Dawnshards is different from the rest. That means the person who holds the Command (the Dawnshard) is different from the other persons who hold Commands. I believe the Life/Sentience Dawnshard is the one who’s different. IMO, granting life is the most godlike of all the Commands. (I think of Michelangelo’s depiction of the divine hand extending towards Adam.) The Life/Sentience Command may require an Ascended being to hold it. Do Intents Derive from Commands? The Akinah mural hints Shard Intents may derive from the four Commands. I speculate that’s true. Known Shard Intents IMO each seem to represent a different aspect of a Command. I show above that Honor, Cultivation, Odium, and Ruin IMO are different aspects of Change – different ways to make Change. I think Preservation is an aspect of Structure. Stasis seems like an important element of Realmic Structure. Dominion to me expresses Rules. Sel’s magic users access magic through geographic-based forms. I attribute that to Dominion. It’s as if that Shard says, “Gain dominion over your homeland before you can use its magic.” Brandon likens AonDor’s topography-derived forms to a programming language. The greater the Elantrian’s knowledge of local topography, the more precise their use of AonDor. Autonomy and Endowment both grant Life/Sentience, to Avatars and Awakened objects. That leaves Devotion and Ambition among known Shards. Their magic is unclear to me. I believe Devotion involves the free use of Investiture (unconditional Love?) that Dominion’s Rules control the flow of. Maybe Devotion is an aspect of Structure? Ambition’s magic is part of why Threnody’s so spooky, which is all I know about that Shard. The Shattering Nikli says the future Vessels used the Commands to Shatter Adonalsium. Adonalsium pre-Shattering WAS the cosmere, it’s mind, body, and spirit. The cosmere’s body and spirit (in Changed form) persist post-Shattering. Adonalsium himself – the cosmere’s mind – is dead. I speculate the future Vessels Commanded Change to undo Adonalsium’s Sentience, thus killing him but leaving the cosmere intact. Change and the other Commands then divided Adonalsium into the Shard Intents. Maybe...?
  4. Spoilers for Warbreaker and Stormlight Maybe I just need more caffeine this morning, but I'm having trouble making sense of a recent reply from Brandon on reddit: Am I correct that Brandon confirmed that other shards have an equivalent or related ability to commands? If so, do you think there is more than just the surface meaning of Dalinar labeling "unite them" as a "phantom command"?
  5. I've just finished another reread of Warbreaker, and (as usual) it left me with a couple of questions I hadn't noticed before. Do we know how exactly Lifeless are broken? It seems that it is easier for the God King because of his sheer amount of Investiture... Why? I doubt they would use an Awakener of the Eighth Heightening every time they want to break a Lifeless' command phrase. Also, Lightsong mentioned somewhere that it involves torture, to which Blushweaver noted the fact that Lifeless don't feel pain... I'm confused. (I have seen it theorized that it involves the command Vasher used to make Nanrovah's daughter forget, but how would the logistics work?) Why is grey considered the absence of color? We know the God King can pull color even from a grey object (making it bone white), but why is grey considered a lack of color in the first place? Why does his blood become translucent? Shouldn't it become grey?
  6. [Warning: This is a little long, and not as well cited or clearly organized as I'd like it to be. Its about 1000 words long, so each of the major sections is getting it's own spoiler. If you don't feel like reading a short (but rambling) essay, feel free to skip down to the tl;dr section below. I happen to be writing this at 2:00 AM, so when I say rambling and poorly organized, I mean it.] What is an Acceptable Command? I’m going to start this off with a question. Do we have any criteria by which to judge an “acceptable” Command? I’ve been wondering this for a while, personally, and I haven’t been able to find much about it. All Commands we see, (or hear of) in the book deal with motion (standard Awakened objects/Lifeless) or cognition (Lifeless/Nightblood-class objects/Returned/Heightenings/whatever weird Command wipes memory). This strikes me as a little strange. I mean, it seems completely arbitrary. Breaths seem to be able to do two things; provide energy, and affect cognition/the Cognitive Realm in various ways. The question is: What limits these interactions? Why can’t an Awakener tell cloth to combust, or stone to shatter? These things are still both just energy, simply expressed in different ways. Why should Breaths be limited to providing mechanical energy? The most obvious reason is that doing these things would render the Breath unrecoverable. However, we do know that Breath can be consumed in certain circumstances. Returned do it, as do Type IVs. I would also speculate that whatever Command removes memory involves Breath being consumed. It seems to me that BioChromatic expressions* which cause change** are the ones which consume Breath. Why Breath Behaves the Way it Does: The reason for this, I believe, relates to the differing effects of Breath upon sapient and non-sapient entities. In inanimate objects, Breath must be given purpose when it is bestowed upon an object. This Breath then carries out its purpose, and, where it can, reshapes its host to a humanoid form. In sapient entities, Breath seems to be purposeless. It is given, and left undirected. However, while in this dormant state, the Breath is still acting. Its purpose (or intent, if you prefer) seems to be shaped by the Cognitive Aspect of its host. Reduced aging, increased health, lifesense, all related to an expanding and reinforcing of the Cognitive Aspect. By all appearances, Breath seems to be a primarily Cognitive Investiture,*** and holding it forces your Physical and Cognitive Aspects into line with each other. (Similar to how Stormlight forces the Physical and Spiritual Aspects into line.****) Note here, that the Breath seems to be superimposing a human Cognitive Aspect upon non-human objects. The Breath itself appears to hold a definite Cognitive Aspect, and this generates many of the effects we see. Its peculiar “stickiness,” the passive effects of the Heightenings, and the fact that it likes to mimic life wherever possible. Change Verses Augmentation, and the Cognitive Aspect of Breath: Now, back to the question at hand. What decides whether or not a Command can be used? It seems to me that the visualization for Commands is in some way limited by what it can do with a human Cognitive Aspect. Inhabiting mammalian corpses, animating the inanimate, bestowing sentience, removing memories, healing. All things that would make sense for a human Cognitive Aspect to do (with a touch of Endowment’s Investiture, of course). On to the next logical question. Is there any way to work around this? As a primarily Cognitive Investiture (as defined by Chaos) Awakening should be innately flexible. So, I would like to draw attention to the last two things we know of that Awakening can do. Removing memories, and healing. While they do fit under the framework I’ve laid out, they’re a bit of an anomaly. Why should Breath be able to remove memories, or heal, and how does it do so? These are some of BioChroma’s few uses that really input a permanent change in an object (excluding the colour that is used as fuel). The changes which occur in all known BioChromatic constructs are reversible with the transfer of Breath. (With the partial exception of Returned. While giving away their Breath does kill them, they still retain their augmented forms, and seem to hold on to more of their Cognitive Aspect when dead than your average Joe.) We know that Returned healings are permanent, and memory wipes strike me like they would be somewhere along the same vein. As I speculated above, it seems that the consumption of Breath is related to a permanent, powerful change, as opposed to simple augmentation. I think with the right visualization, with the right Commands, it might be possible to derive more expansive and powerful effects from Awakening. Tl;dr: Basically, there should be undiscovered Commands that have more varied and powerful effects in exchange for the consumption of Breath. The primary reason that they have not been discovered is that they are non-intuitive, and require more difficult visualization, as Breaths appear to be somehow tied to human Cognitive/Spiritual Aspects. There also might be an alternate framework for Awakening mechanics in there somewhere. Now, I know my logic is a little sketchy in places, and I ramble on for a bit that I likely could have explained far more concisely and tied in for better, but other than that, what do you think? Any ways I could make this clearer and flesh it out better? Footnotes:
  7. This idle musing has been bubbling in my head for about half a year now, but it's only today that I've felt the absolute need to share it: What would happen if you were to Awaken a sword using one of the Immortal Words? For instance, what would happen if Vasher had awakened Nightblood, but instead of using the command 'Destroy Evil' he used the command 'Protect those who cannot protect themselves'. Would we simply get an awakened, sentient sword that would try (badly) to fulfil its command, or would we get something a little more... magical...? honourblade? BONUS FAR FETCHED-NESS: What if one of the Skybreaker's oaths had something to do with 'Destroy Evil'...