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Found 12 results

  1. First off acknowledgement to @hwilesfor planting this idea in my head months ago. During a discussion about Kelsier earlier today on discord with @Spoolofwhool and @Blightsong, I mentioned an idea I picked up from Hwiles about how Kelsier regained a body. There's been numerous discussions on this, all most revolving around spiking Kelsier's Cognitive Aspect to a random body/Kandra and him taking over. I believe something different, and Spool and Blight helped flesh it out some. First, we need to look at the last half of this WoB from Boskone. So, when a worldhopper is physically in the Cognitive Realm, they do not in fact have a body. They are comprised wholely of investiture, but retain their connection to the Physical realm. That connection is the only difference between a worldhopper in the Cognitive Realm, and a Cognitive Shadow like Kelsier. So what if, instead of a spike into a body, which couldn't house the entirety of Kelsier's Cognitive aspect, the spike only contains someone's connection to the Physical Realm? From this WoB, we know that hemalurgy is possible in the Cognitive. (thanks @Overstorm) so a spike can be taken into the Cognitive Realm and used. If a spike were to steal the physical connection of a person, and then placed into Kel, he would then be composed of investiture in the Cognitive Realm and have a connection to the Physical Realm, just like every worldhopper. At this point, all he needs to do is go to a perpendicularity, and transition into the Physical Realm, the same as we've seen worldhoppers do before. When he steps through, his body should form from background investiture, or whatever mechanism works for your average worldhopper. Kelsier's body may not be his original, but it's 100% his own.
  2. I have been re-reading Alloy of Law over my holiday break. When I came across a specific quote that made me pause and formulate an interesting theory about Trell. Due to spoilers the rest of this post will be in a spoiler box. Read at your own discretion. Particularly if you haven't read Secret History.
  3. Do we currently know exactly how Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow got "anchored" to the Physical Realm? I know he became the Sovereign, but do we have the information about the Realmatics and Hemalurgic reasoning behind it? How did it work? In a nutshell, how is Hemalurgy used to anchor Cognitive Shadows to a physical host?
  4. So in combing through @Extesian's awesome collection of WOBs (link included below the WOB), I found one that I hadn't seen before that I think has some pretty serious potential ramifications. I for one, am very underwhelmed by the official explanation for the Recreance. Here is the official explanation, as reenacted in Bill and Ted's Recreant Adventure: KR Bill: Dude, look in the mirror bro, there's the true voidbringer. (KR Ted performs the patented Keanu Reeve's "whoa" head shake) KR Ted: I know, we're like human bombs. Guess it's time to start killin' our spren. I've speculated about this before, but given the additional fact that a recently deceased Vessel makes it easier for practitioner's of that Vessel's magic to become Cognitive Shadows, leads me to more firmly believe that there is a different and more compelling reason for the Recreance. Namely that the Nahel Bond allowed Odium to keep the KRs from transitioning to the Great Beyond, and more to the point, allowed him to torture their souls on Braize until they cracked and became his willing servants (and if they don't crack, then he gets to torture them in perpetuity, which if you're the shard of Odious Hatred that's a win win situation). Here are some general considerations (sources for some are in referenced spoiler tags below): We know that the afterlife on Roshar is weird, and that Ancient Singer Cognitive Shadows can come back as the Fuzed. We know that the Nahel Bond was patterned on the Honorblades. How much of the function of the Honorblade was copied? Was the linkage to the Oathpact, i.e. a torturous trip to Braize after death, included in the package deal? The Fuzed don't seem to be using Voidbinding, instead they seem to be using hacked surgebinding fueled by voidlight. The Fuzed seem largely ineffectual, and seem to be the advanced guard of the Desolation. The only real heavy hitters to come out for this battle on team Odium were the Thunderclasts. Puuli, who I would nominate as the Shard of Schadenfreude, in his interlude talks of the ones that will come with light in their pocket to destroy, and refers to them as "sailors lost on an infinite sea".* In Shadesmar, before the battle of Thaylenah Fields, some mysterious spren that aren't gold or red (so neither voidspren or corrupted spren, but described rather as dark) are massed before the oathgate and are waiting to bond with the disillusioned yet soon to be Thrilled troops of House Sadeas. I think this is significant.** So here is the speculative chain, fully assembled. Humans were starting to bond spren in imitation of the Nahel Bond before the KRs were established. Honor was splintering in slow motion (possibly even since the inception of the Oathpact). The Singer's played Let's make a deal with Odium, and the Royals were created (cognitive shadows of the Ancient Singers). Just like the spren got bored of hanging around the Singers, Odium too tired of them (not very passionate those Singers) and began to harvest KR souls as Tanavast's slow death advanced in terminality, causing their increasing formation as Cognitive Shadows. KRs at some point before the Recreance figure out that the Nahel bond allows Odium to trap their soul in Braize and torture them until they break (like the Heralds). The KRs realize that by continuing to fight they are opening themselves up to eternal damnation and unwittingly strengthening Odium's forces, so they decide to voluntarily kill their spren and sever their Nahel bonds. The Cataclysmic event, foreshadowed in the Puuli interlude, is coming, where the broken KRs will come from the Origin of Storms and unleash biblical devastation on the land. Possibly Thunderclasts are really broken KR Stonewards (the essence for their order is Rock and Stone), and the ability of Thunderclasts to form their body out of stone is the only true application of Voidbinding that we have seen on screen. If this is the case, we can expect 9 more orders of Eldritch monster level bad-asses to form from their respective Order's Essences. I would hate to see a broken Voidbinding Bondsmith (made out of Meat/Flesh) or a broken voidbinding Lightweaver (made out of Blood, ehh, gross). This theory also has the benefit of having humans be the original and the current voidbringers, which I think is pretty slick, and the additional benefit of being a satisfying explanation for the cause of the Recreance. Interested to hear what you all think about this. 5. *Full quote of Puuli's interlude: 6. **Text from the Battle of Thaylenah Field about the "dark spren" (really relevant bits highlighted):
  5. After lurking for a year, I’m finally taking the leap and posting my first theory to the 17th Shard! (Also posted it to the r/Cosmere subreddit, in case anyone saw it over there.) I couldn’t find anything here (or there) covering this specific topic—apologies if this has already been discussed. Kelsier remains one of my favorite Cosmere characters, and I’m positive that his incredible story arc, irreverence for authority, and status as a Sliver of Preservation will make him a key source of knowledge and insight into the inner workings of Investiture and the Cosmere. In particular, I can’t stop wondering how he pulled off his latest “feat,” seen at the end of The Bands of Mourning—namely, returning to the Physical Realm after dying and turning into a Cognitive Shadow during the events of Mistborn: Secret History. Re-reading Secret History after reading Oathbringer has given me an idea for a theory that I find increasingly plausible: I believe that Kelsier returned to the Physical Realm in a very similar fashion to the creation of The Fused: I imagine that he used Hemalurgy to “staple” his Cognitive Shadow into a living person, much like the Fused are Ancient Listener Cognitive Shadows “inserted” into the gemhearts of living Listeners. (Possibly related to the spike going through his eye and brain?) Kelsier, The Survivor of Death The two passages above highlight Kelsier’s problem as a Cognitive Shadow: he’s missing the “string” (whatever that actually means) that connects him to the Physical Realm, enabling him to have a body. From the end of The Bands of Mourning, we can see that Kelsier succeeded! He’s back in the Physical Realm, able to physically interact with his surroundings and other people, and clearly inhabiting a body that looks a lot like his previous body (note the scarred arms). We know that Kelsier couldn’t possibly be inhabiting his original body, as it was eaten by OreSeur near the end of The Final Empire. Somehow, Kelsier has obtained a new body that looks like his original body (or… more likely, he’s managed to transform a different body to look like his own). The timing of events also gives us some clues in terms of just how quickly Kelsier managed to accomplish this: he’s down on the Southern Hemisphere while the people there are literally still in process of freezing to death—he walks by recently frozen corpses and comes upon the remnants of a people waiting to die. From this we can infer that Kelsier got his body back fast enough following the Catacendre that some of the Southerners were still alive. Given how quickly Allik and the other Southerners started experiencing hypothermia in “normal” temperatures, it’s hard to imagine that Kelsier had more than a few months (if not weeks) to figure out his Physical return. The Mechanics of “Fusing” These passages reiterate the mechanics of “fusing”: a living Listener opens him/herself to the Cognitive Shadow of an Ancient Listener, who then completely takes over the body of the living Listener, forcing out the original soul, and “fusing” to the body to create a new being. This passage seems to suggest that the “fusion” process fundamentally changes the physical appearance of the Listener body beyond that of form, as form changes don’t seem to correspond with a Listener’s marbling coloration (i.e., we’ve seen Listeners of the same form have different colorations, so we can infer that coloration is not form-specific). If we assume that marbling coloration is a more fundamental physical attribute of the individual listen related to his or her Identity (much like a fingerprint), this change in coloration would be suggest that the “fusion” process is directly changing the Identity of the Listener’s SpiritWeb. Conclusions In spite of the very limited information that we have thus far, it’s difficult not to see a parallel between Kelsier’s Physical return and the creation of the Fused: both are instances of a Cognitive Shadow returning to the Physical Realm by inhabiting a body of some sort (literally stated in the case of the Fused, strongly implied in Kelsier’s case). We know that the Fused require a gemheart of some sort to facilitate the process (the existence of Thunderclasts show that the it may not even need to be a Listener body or gemheart), and the “storage” of Investiture (spren) within a gemheart certainly evokes the “storage” of a Hemalurgic charge within a spike, in many ways. (Note: I’ve used the word “return” to describe Kelsier’s inhabiting a Physical body—Kelsier’s parallels to the Returned on Nalthis, who are also Cognitive Shadows AND Splinters, certainly exist as well, but the analogue seems a bit more oblique than that of the Fused? If anyone has thoughts on how this phenomena is also similar, I’d love to hear them!) Would love to hear feedback and thoughts on this theory! I couldn’t be more excited for The Lost Metal! Really hoping that it comes with some big answers around our favorite scarred Survivor.
  6. Spoilers for Oathbringer and Secret History: Ok, so from Secret History we know that: We also know from a WoB (I'm terrible at finding these) that the Heralds are cognitive shadows. So my theory question is this: Could Hoid kill the Heralds if he wanted to? I'm thinking that he could. There's also a theory that the way Moash killed Jezrien at the end was a form of Hemalurgy, and I like the theory. If Odium is using Hemalurgy to steal the investiture from the Heralds, then presumably he is gaining some sort of benefit (duh, lol). In order to deny Odium this opportunity, the most simple solution would be to just destroy the Heralds. If Hoid saw this as enough of a threat, I could totally see him wanting to destroy the Heralds, and with The Cognitive Shadow Loophole, I think he would be able to.
  7. We already know that there are at least 4 types of cognitive shadows that are left behind by human-level creatures: 1. Shades on Threnody, 2. Fused souls, 3. Svrakiss, 4. Kelsier. Now, the description of Svrakiss from Coppermind: sounds quite familiar after reading Oathbringer. They both hate, they don't go to the Beyond, they curse a lot, and they prey on the living. People have speculated if Svrakiss are what's behind the Set's Faceless Immortals, and now we have another option which is almost identical. Knowing that they are both from planets which Odium set foot upon makes me ponder. Also, Threnody was associated with Ambition, who was also splintered by, well, Odium. Below is the description of the Evil: Odium feasted on the guilt of the humans, which is what keeps most people on the right track, making right choices, doing right things. With Odium to blame for any crime passionnel, a man can be considered soulless, and the rest of the humankind did the right thing to flee them. My theory is, all these 3 types of cognitive shadows are created by Odium. He may not have invested on Sel to keep the Svrakiss from going to the Beyond, but there is enough investiture in the Cognitive Realm to do it. Odium may have used the investiture he tore from Ambition to create the shades. And we know about the Fused already. Odium is like a master Necromancer, leaving behind an army of undead everywhere he goes. And he will not hesitate to use the army when there's the chance. And that's perhaps what Hoid is working against, to release the cognitive shadows? After all, they're basically the only people he can beat and hurt without breaking his oaths. And he even danced with some of them, and he may have wished them a peaceful rest.
  8. So I'm working on getting one of my friends into the cosmere, and after reading Warbreaker, she expressed hopes of seeing more Lightsong in the future even though he died. While I don't think that will happen, it did get me thinking about how the Returned are cognitive shadows "stapled" back to their bodies with their Divine Breath, and now I'm wondering again if the cognitive realm on Nalthis is just full of redead Returned just hanging out as cognitive shadows. Does anyone know if Brandon has said anything about this? Do cognitive shadows ever get the chance to go Beyond? I have so many questions now because of this.
  9. Hey 17th Shard, So far we have seen, on screen, three (3) Vessel's cognitive shadows (Leras, Ati, and Tanavast). We know of at least three (3) other shattered Shards (Devotion, Dominion, and Ambition) and it would be reasonable, I think, to assume that their cognitive shadows existed at some point after their Shattering. Special cases: 1. Leras: he did some wonky stuff with his "mind" to trap Ati. Also, I think Ati (Ruin) murdered the scattered remnants of Leras' cognitive shadow once released from the Well. 2. Tanavast: he seems to have merged his cognitive shadow with a massive spren (the Stormfather) and I am not sure I fully understand the implications of that. Caveats: 1. Devotion, Dominion: as far as I am aware, we do not know what happened to the cognitive shadows of these shards. It is possible they are still around though I am unaware of any evidence, even hints, that might support this conclusion. I would argue that without further WoBs or book reveals it would be safe to assume that Devotion and Dominion's cognitive shadows are gone, most likely murdered by Odium after he shattered them. EDIT: Arcanum Unbounded seems to make it clear that Odium forcibly Beyonded (it's a verb, right?) Dominion and Devotion's cognitive shadows. Thanks for the reminder on that! 2. Ambition: might exist because Odium was not around when Ambition finally bit the dust (right?). Obvious case: 1. Ati: he lasted in the cognitive realm just long enough for Kelsier to punch him, utter something cryptic, and then vanish to the Beyond. Why? Why didn't Ati stick around? Plot wise it would have been disastrous as he knows wayyyyy too much and would have ruined (pun intended) a lot of the plot of the Cosmere. But, ignoring that, what was the reason for Ati to vanish to the Beyond so quickly?
  10. -- Contains some Secret History information-- On p660 of Hero of Ages, the first generation is discussing the clash between Ruin and Preservation, and notes that Preservation's Mind was basically destroyed: Just from a bit of consideration this brings up a few things: 1) It seems that "the shadow" is refering to the "sliver" that is left of Preservation's mind (referred to in the previous sentence). Shadow + Mind = Cognitive Shadow. I'm noting this link somewhat pedantically, because I think one could say that the second speaker wasn't referring to the Mind anymore, but I think that the juxtaposition makes my reading sensible. 2) If that's true, is the implication here that when a Vessel is sufficiently weakened, to the point that they must give up their Shard and become a Sliver, they would default to a cognitive shadow (I guess assuming they remain in the cognitive realm)? 3) Based on the nearby plot of HoA, I assume that the "image" being discussed is what eventually falls to earth as Leras's body. That would be the same "body" (cognitive shadow in the cognitive realm until it is destroyed at last) that Kelsier interacts with in Secret History, he himself being a cognitive shadow. If this is the case, does it imply that a cognitive shadow still retains connection to a physical body somehow? 4) If shades are cognitive shadows (implied in Secret History?), and shades are warded away by silver, and Vessel is a cognitive shadow (either always or just when it loses it's Shard), it could make sense that silver would be Allomantically inert, as it would have negative interactions with Preservation? How far afield have I gotten here? 5) How bad of a job have I done putting this in the right forum?
  11. We recently got confirmation that Returned are Cognitive Shadows, and that some people would call the Heralds Cognitive Shadows. This got me to thinking, where have we see Cognitive Shadows before? On Roshar, we have the Stormfather, the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast/Honor. We have the Heralds*, and we have the throwaway line by Khriss in Arcanum Unbounded saying the Braize is inhabited by Splinters and possibly Cognitive Shadows. On Scadrial, we have Kelsier, who's a bit of an exception, since he tricked Leras into putting him in the Well of Ascension. We also met Spanky, who is presumably a Scadrial native because it is difficult to take Cognitive Entities between worlds. Preservation/Leras might fall into this category as well, since he seems to have died a long time ago in Secret History. In the later era of Scadrial, Wax probably counts now, since Harmony stuck him back into his body. On Nalthis, the Returned are like Wax, Cognitive Shadows who were stapled back into their bodies by Endowment. On Threnody, we have the Shades, obviously. On Sel, now, I theorize that we have the Elantians. When Raoden wakes up as an Elantrian, and gets locked in Elantris, he talks to Galladon and realizes he doesn't have a heartbeat. Galladon is always going "You're dead, Kolo?" This always bothered me, because, how would someone who's body is dead, still obviously retain sentience? This question is answered if we realize that they are Cognitive Shadows that are (like the Returned, and Wax) stapled back into their bodies. Relevant WoBs and quotes: -Arcanum Unbounded. The Rosharan System. Page 535, hardback. Source. Source.
  12. Recently in a thread involving the the Lopen a theory came to mind. It's stated that their number never went beyond three and that their spren was specific: "But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."—Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14 What is more specific than bonding a cognitive shadow? We know that there were three Shards present on Roshar; Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. It's theorized that the Stormfather is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, which Dalinar had just recently bonded. If one man (admittedly with a strong connection to Honor) could bond with a shade, its possible that the other members were capable of doing just that.