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Found 32 results

  1. Are there humans in Ashyn during the Stormlight Archive timeline?
  2. There’s a WoB that talks about the magic system on Ashyn, saying that it works via contracting certain types of invested diseases, then the disease granting the infected individual powers. If you could Hemalurgically spike out the power from one of these diseased individuals, then grant it to yourself, could you side-step the part where you need to suffer an illness, since you now have the investiture that grants the power, but without the disease to go with it?
  3. I'm rereading WoR and when shallan talks to taln he says ishar made the knight radiants a few desolations ago. So that means the heralds fought off the fused without the radiants before? And does that mean the 10 of them destroyed ashyn by themselves? Or did the honour blades originate on roshar? And if they did where did the magic come from to destroy ashyn? Sorry i know its alot of questions
  4. Hi! This is my first time ever posting on the Shard, I've been playing around with this theory ever since I learned about the Ashyn magic system. As a sort of preamble, I want to first just describe the overarching idea of this theory. 1) Voidbinding is a viral-based "hemalurgy" or spiritweb-stabbing magic. 2) The Shin have or had Voidbinding, practiced or no. As in, they are capable of being infected by a sort of viral disease empowered by Odium that attaches to one's spiritweb to give them power. Or at least, I believe that, originally, Voidbinding would do this. 3) Ashynians originally hoped to invade Roshar with the disease. 4) The Heralds were or are Voidbinders. We can blame the Ashynian magic system for their insanity, as well as Szeth's. Yes, okay. Now that we have my probably rather insane ideas. Let's dig in! Also a brief reminder all of this is insane speculation and a lot of it is me extrapolating information. I want to explain what I mean by Voidbinding, and how I describe the magic in this system. First, Odium sends a sort of proto-spren (a splinter of himself, potentially more like proto-Unmades) to attach themselves to a host. In order to "bond", the proto-spren begins a strong infection of the spiritweb in a way much like Hemalurgy. I believe this magic system was inspired by trunelife and the Sho Del on Yolen. A sort of extraterrestrial magic system that is capable of infecting anyone but also able to move between planets without forming a stable Connection. Essentially, it would corrupt as it spread to grant species of people incredible power, only to also infect them with Odium's powerful emotional control. Indeed, it could also explain why Ambition was first to go-- the Shattering was probably accompanied by a Dawnshard for Change to forcibly create a new power for himself. At the height of the system, Ashynians could use unrestrained Surges that were modeled after Yolen's own magic system (I also operate on the belief that Surgebinding comes from Yolen-- at least as a basic concept). I think Odium messed up a bit, and what ended up being created was a sort of Hemalurgic spike that'd destroy the spiritweb once it left the host, if it ever did. Indeed, we can later see how the influence of an Unmade on an area can disrupt one's spiritweb; I forgot the WOB, but it essentially stated that there was a relation to hearing screaming voices and Unmade influence. As a secondary theory, I also want to say that original Fused cognitive shadows are those who were initially Voidbinded. Essentially, they became infected enough that the disease attached to their spirits, making them Invested (Infected/Invested, same thing) enough to remain as Cognitive Shadows by Odium's desire. Of course, the constant cycle of rebirth has made the deeply spiritual disease continuously tear open their sanities. And then, and I know I don't have any information on this, once Odium realized that the humans were turning on him, he rescinded his powers from the cognitive shadows he had as his champions and turned them all into the Unmade we know today-- now Frankenstein's monsters of living beings. The remnants of this magical disease left on Ashyn has now evolved due to it not having access to Odium's power, now requiring the full absorption of the health of Ashynian people to survive. 1: The Shin had/have Voidbinding. Yes, I'm sorry, right off the bat I need to say that I think the people of Shinovar have Voidbinders, and that we'll finally see it in the next book. Not only is Shinovar the place most unlike the rest of Roshar, and due to it also being the one place where the Ashynians were originally supposed to be, I believe them to be inherently connected to the Voidbinding magic system. At the very least, the Shin have proven to be repeatedly war-like in the past, perhaps a bit Odious, at least to me. The fact that it is more of a throwaway line leads me to want to place even more emphasis on it. I think the fact that the Shin even attempted any sort of excursion into Roshar despite being isolationist in the present leads me to believe a large amount of influence was swaying their decision-making. Of course, it is also important, I believe, to note that the Shin also intone that there is a way to speak with stones in the same way that the Willshapers do (at least, Venli was able to do). Furthermore, Ashyn's magic had changed, and I think it is also different with the Shin-- especially since Odium seemed to have shifted his desires long after to focusing upon the Fused (which, by the fact that they kind of forcibly bond with beings, implies they, too, were kind of going through the motions of Voidbinding). Indeed, it seems odd that the Shin would have access to any sort of powers-- especially in going to reclaim the Honorblades for themselves, and having what seems to be quite a bit of cosmere awareness. So yes, they know a lot about what truly happened on Ashyn and the movement to Roshar, though the information is not completely accurate. Furthermore, without strong access to Stormlight (at least it was stated they don't use it much), I wanna assume they draw upon Voidlight to perform their magic. The Unmade influencing the Shin leaders is most likely also giving them these illness-like bonds, binding to their emotions and giving them powers. This influence probably leaves tears in the spiritweb, and Szeth's being in the higher echelon of Shin society would have inevitably given him access to the Ashynian illness. Indeed, this would leave a tear in his spiritweb, which would set him up for a Nahel bond, yada yada. 3: Ashynian offensive Okay, now that I've set up that the Shin could have this magic system's remnants floating around, I move to also explain how an invasion of Roshar could have went down. The humans crash down in Shinovar. The singers gave them the space to work with, but the Ashynians, probably influenced by the Ambition-side of their diseases, sought to spread out much further. To become Connected to Roshar, the Ashynian viruses spread out and infect singers left and right, subtly nudging them to Odium while also gaining a Connection to Roshar. I think it also may help to explain how the humans began to wane off of Odium's influence soon thereafter, probably due to the kindness of the singers, while the violence of their diseases affected the singers negatively. The two sides shifted due to the initial bonding of power. I think the reason why people think that mental disorders are requisite for a Nahel bond start here-- where the humans were afflicted with disorders upon removing themselves from the viral diseases. 4: The Heralds were Voidbinders I feel like this one goes without saying, but I want to say how it pertains to their insanity. If the Ashynian disease was a hemalurgic-sort of tear in the spiritweb, then anyone who forcibly removes themselves from it will become massively open to the influence of any Shard or Investiture like a spren. I don't think that the effects of it would kill the user, as it would mostly have torn at sanity and sense of identity. As such, it would explain why the Heralds and their agreement with Honor was formed; to fill in the holes left by them removing themselves from Ashyn's magic, Honor granted them Honorblades to mimic the powers they had on Ashyn. These blades, bonding with the spirit, allowed them to be generally safe from the influence of the Ashynian viruses as they fought against Odium. The Oathpact, being formed, hopefully was to also be used to give them sanity. However, these holes would only grow with more stress upon the spirit, and they began to become less and less sane. We can see today how most of the Heralds have ran away from their original personality traits, or have regressed. I think Nale is a special case because he was able to bond with a highspren; the opening of his spiritweb was filled up again by him also bonding himself with a spren and flying up to the Fifth Ideal to avoid the utter insanity associated with the savantism gained from being an Voidbinder. Furthermore, I think Taln was able to generally avoid giving in because he was both insanely based and badass but also because he never had the Ashynian sickness. He wasn't already broken down by the powers of the sickness, so he was generally able to avoid being torn apart as easily-- and in fact his connection to Honor was the strongest. I think he's still suffering from insanity induced by torture, but the fact that he maintained his oath is telling of a lack of Odium's effect. Sorry for making this so long. I have a lot of ways I could go with this theory, like, I'll probably post more later. But I just wanted to get this out there and discuss what I had made. Thanks
  5. So I assume that every theory I come up with, someone on this site already had in like 2007, and it was disproven by 2008 That being said... here goes. A long time ago, the planet Yolen was home to Humans, Dragons, Sho Del, and a being called Adonalsium. The sixteen cornered Adonalsium and Shattered him. The sixteen, newly Ascended, each went their separate ways. Most went to their own Shardworlds. Some, like Bavadin, went to a sun. At least one just went somewhere in space. A few went two-at-a-time to a planet - like Aona and Skai on Sel - despite having bound themselves not to do that. Some used the powers of the Shards to make their own worlds, like Scadrial. (Aside: I wonder if Ati and Leras made their planet just to avoid some specificity of the language of their oath not to settle on the same planet. Which explains why Odium And Friends weren't able to kill and splinter them as easily as they did - even when their own fighting left them both preposterously weakened. Imagine if Ati and Leras were lovers or best friends, and the opposing nature of their Shards drove them to such enmity. All for their hubris. What a tragedy that would be.) Rayse - Odium - went off to his own Shardworld. This was not Braize - he would not end up there until much later. This planet was probably in its own solar system where Rayse could be a God unquestioned. Two Shards, however, decided not to leave. They would stay on Yolen together. These shards were Mr. and Mrs. Avast - Koravellium and Tan - the shards of Cultivation and Honor. When Rayse went to his planet, he took a group of humans with him. But he did not take every human off of Yolen. Many stayed with Cultivation and Honor. As did many dragons - Cultivation's species - and many Sho Del. We don't know much about the Sho Del. But they, and their ecosystem, was in conflict with the humans and their ecosystem. If Honor had stayed on Yolen alone, he would have established firm rules that allowed the two ecosystems to live side by side. If Odium had stayed on Yolen, he would have pitted them against each other until the stronger survived and the weaker died. But, true to her Shardic intent, Cultivation offered a compromise. She would let the two species grow together into one. The same will that would one day lead to the creation of the Sibling and its mixed light, spread across Yolen and all its people. Sho Del and humans could come together and create one species to live in harmony. The human and Sho Del ecosystems were also intermixed, creating wholly new hybrid species at every level. It is possible that some elements of each ecosystem were kept unchanged. Whether to act as a control group (like the South Scadrians), or through xenophobia, or just to preserve diversity, I cant say. This is related to one of the few pieces of Yolish trivia we have: that a common saying there was "May two worlds become one to you." Perhaps this is the same as many people on Earth say a variation of "may peace be with you" - because thanks to the intervention of the Shards, the conflict between these two ecosystems was ended by their merging. On Yolen, "two worlds becoming one" was literally synonymous with peace. And there was peace. Until there was Odium. Odium's planet was originally populated by humans who followed him from Yolen. As best as we know, those people destroyed their planet. They tried to manipulate the fundamental Surges, using even the Dawnshards, and in the end it was too much for them. They delved too deep, in the Moria sense; they opened the Bore, in the Collam Daan sense. This is a facially probably story. I mean, storms, look at what Rashek did - and he didn't have a Dawnshard - and he was fueled by an intent to Preserve! Yet still, I question the historicity of this account which blames humans. I rather expect that it was Odium who was trying to use the Dawnshards to do things that even his Shardic power did not allow him to do - such as change the fundamental rules of the universe. He failed. In his failure he destroyed his planet - maybe even his entire system. He needed help. He reached out to other Shards, who mostly told him to go pound sand - they knew what he had done to Aona and Skai and Uli Da. But when he reached out to Koravellium and Tan, they were willing to listen to him. In part because there were two of them and only one of him and they felt they could control him. In part because they felt sympathy for Odium's desperate humans - Cultivation to protect life, Honor to support a ruler's obligations to his people. (This leads me to another theory about what happened on Odium's planet - which is that he intentionally destroyed it, in order to create a situation whereby he could con Honor and Cultivation into helping him. It doesn't really matter - Honor is dead, and Rayse is too.) There were probably other factors at work. Perhaps Odium had something which Honor and Cultivation wanted: the ability to forgive them for breaking their word and choosing to reside on the same planet together. Perhaps he had something else they wanted: a Dawnshard. Perhaps they had a Bondsmith and so they felt they could create a pact which would protect them. Perhaps all three. In the end, they offered Odium a deal. He could return his people to Yolen. They wouldn't be too much of a bother - hell, if Honor and Cultivation had managed to find peace between the humans and Sho Del, dealing with just a few more humans would be easy. They would take these refugees. But in exchange, Odium would have to agree to restrictions, for Honor and Cultivation's safety. He would have to agree to be bound on a barren planet next to Yolen and would only observe and interact with his people through intermediaries. Odium agreed. Odium's planet was brought to the Yolish system. I expect this was done for practical logistical reasons, such as because Odium's people did not have enough idea of the Cosmere to find Yolen in the Cognitive Realm. While they were about it, they brought in a second planet, one just as barren, which would serve as Odium's prison. Suddenly Yolen went from being the only major planet in its system, to one of three. The other two were the planet that Odium's people came over on, and the planet on which Odium now resided. These were positioned to either side of Yolen so that visual astronomy, and therefore travel in Shadesmar, would be possible. This might have made it easier to get the humans from their planet to Yolen - but it would have been necessary for Odium's intermediaries to continue leading and viewing the people to whom he was a God. It is quite possible that Yolen's orbit was altered slightly, so that both of its two new planets would be visible to the naked eyes of its inhabitants. Unfortunately things did not go exactly as planned. Whether by natural occurence, or by Odium's influence - and of course I am disposed to expect the latter - the human/Sho Del hybrid race on Yolen began to worship Odium. By a turn, the humans that came with Odium began to ally themselves with Honor. This lead to a conflict between the two that threatened to be just as terrible as the ancient conflict between the humans and Sho Del. Cultivation attempted to solve this conflict the way she had solved the last one, by creating a hybrid species between the hybrid race and the humans. This did not work. In the end, Honor returned to Odium and offered him a new bargain: the Oathpact. Odium already had his ten intermediaries who could move between his prison-planet and Yolen. These ten humans... perhaps they switched loyalties to Honor, just as the human/Sho Del hybrid race had switched loyalties to Odium. Or perhaps something even more sinister is going on here. I can hardly speculate. This resulted in the Desolations, the death and splintering of Honor, and the modern history of Yolen as recorded in the Stormlight Archive. This is because my theory is that Yolen and Roshar are one and the same. The world we know as Roshar was once known as Yolen. The physical evidence has mostly been subsumed under crem. The memory of Yolen has mostly been subsumed under the eons, aided by the Desolations. That is why the location of Yolen is not known to (say) Silverlight - but rather than calling it 'unknown' or 'lost,' Khriss refers to it only as 'shrouded.' Its shroud is that it is known by the world which replaced it. It is hiding in plain sight. I do not know whether the Sho Del continue to exist, on Yolen or anywhere else. I don't see any evidence that unmixed humans remained on Roshar - or dragons, for that matter - so it seems unlikely that unmixed Sho Del persisted either. It is possible that they dwell in the oceans of what we now call Roshar. The Tai-Na could be the original Sho-Del - but I expect they are more likely to be a cross between the human Giant Turtle and a Sho Del equivalent. However, you can see much of the Sho Del ecosystem remaining in the rockbud-and-cremling ecosystem of modern Roshar. Perhaps this is the Sho Del ecosystem as it once existed - the equivalent of what in Dragonsteel Prime was called the fain. I expect that the Rosharan ecosystem is a hybrid between the Sho Del and human. Human dogs and their Sho Del equivalent were mixed to create axehounds; crabs and bulls were mixed to create chulls (a straightforward portmanteau of the words "crab" and "bull"). It may even be that the word for the human-Sho Del hybrid is a portmanteau indicating its origins. Part Sho Del, Part Human: Parshendi. The Parshendi are the Sho Del/human hybrids that were created by Honor and Cultivation to be the sole inhabitants of Yolen from the Shattering onwards. They were the sole - or at least, the primary - inhabitants, until Odium returned with his desparate band of humans. These humans were given Shinovar, which became a refuge for both the descendants of the humans of Yolen and their customs. I expect the Shin reverence for stone derives from the Yolish period, as a practice that resulted from humanity's conflict with the fain, whereby clean stone was kept in rings around towns so that moss, a sign of the advancing fain ecosystem, could be noticed as soon as possible. As with much in Sanderson's work, reasonable practices of survival and culture were eventually transformed into religion, disconntected from its original reason for being. It began on Yolen, was removed from its original context when brought to Odium's planet, and by freak happenstance ended up back on Yolen - a Yolen so changed that it was just as irrelevant, and yet, like so much of culture, persisted. The planet known to Vorinism as the Tranquiline Halls is what is known to Rosharan astronomers as Ashyn. What is not commonly understood is that the planet Ashyn is not native to the Rosharan system. Neither is Braize. When Odium destroyed his own system, Ashyn and Braize were brought to the Yolish system. Ashyn was brought to facilitate the transfer of its people to refuge in what is now known as Shinovar. Braize was brought to be a prison planet for Odium: Damnation. In subsequent years, we have seen interbreeding between the human/Sho Del mix known as the Parshendi, and unmixed humans. This can be seen in such human genetic groups as the Unalaki and Herdazians, wherein the human genetics are more and most dominant respectively. Perhaps this was forced by Cultivation in an attempt to recreate her solution to the human/Sho Del conflict of eons before. Or perhaps it is a pure happenstance, resulting from the Parshendi being half human - enough, it seems, to interbreed. We have seen similar levels of genetic expression as to another species: the Siah Aimians and the Natan. This makes me wonder whether the Siah are a nonhuman species and the Natan a new mixed-genetics species, or whether the Siah are a mixture like the Parshendi, and the Natan a point between the equal mixture and full human rather like the Unalaki or Herdazian. Because of his partial shapeshifting ability but humanoid appearance, it would not surprise me to learn that Axies the Collector, and his fellow Siah Aimians, are a hybrid between human and the other species of Yolen, the dragons. The Natan people are the result of breeding between this half-human hybrid and pure humans - the descendants of those who left Yolen with Odium, and then returned from Ashyn. As the Parshendi are to humans and Sho Del, the Siah are to humans and dragons. Perhaps there is even a mixed dragon/Sho Del species - I would suspect the larkin, like Chiri-Chiri. One related possibility is that the planet Yolen was moved somewhat in space, like Scadrial was. This may have been done in order to better accomodate the sudden arrival of two new planets in its system. Or it may heve been done before that, by Shards trying to create an ideal habitat for its combination human-Sho Del ecosystem. In either event, it seems like it required a little tweaking - much like Rashek giving the North Scadrians adaptation to ash and its effects. Perhaps throgh magical evolution, perhaps through the hand of the Shards, some animals of this new ecosystem were bonded to various nonsapient manifestations of investiture in the Cognitive Realm - what modern Rosharans would call the spren of Shadesmar. This can be seen in greatshells who bond to luckspren, or in Rhyshadium who bond to musicspren - probably the result of horses who left Yolen and returned later from Ashyn. (Fans of the Giants series might see reflections of Minerva in this theory.) One derivative theory might be of interest. How did the humans get from Ashyn to Yolen? They could have crossed through Shadesmar. I have a hunch that they crossed through the physical realm. I bet that Ishar, whether or not using a Dawnshard, created a physical portal between Ashyn and Roshar - a kind of super Oathgate, the Gotthard Base Tunnel or Danyang–Kunshan Bridge of Oathgates. I base this on only one thing: crem. We know that crem was not always part of the Highstorm cycle. Perhaps it was created by Cultivation in order to provide an environment that would be adaptable to her new hybrid ecosystem. That is perhaps the most likely explanation. But another is that a physical gate was opened between Ashyn and Yolen/Roshar and was never closed. This maybe by intention, or by Odium's trickery (maybe their pact said "it will close as soon as the last person crosses," and yet one billion-ass-year-old person remains on Ashyn, thus keeping the portal open.) This portal is located at the Origin. Because Ashyn has been rather destroyed, its shredded topsoil keeps getting blown through the gate. It gets spit out onto Roshar, where the Highstorms then carry it across the world. This would explain why the crem cycle only began so relatively recently in the life of the planet. It would also mean that, at every Highstorm, anyone on Roshar could look up and say "Ashyn fell from the sky." A final point is that this implies that Adonalsium was shattered on what we now know as Roshar. I expect this is likely from evidence we have of modern Roshar. The Shattering caused a release of energy so great that its seismic effects can still be seen in the form of the Shattered Plains. Yes, indeed, Adonalsium was Shattered in Plain sight. The only reason the Shattered Plains are still visible is that their deep crevices drain away the crem from the Highstorms - otherwise they would have been turned into a simple field long ago, the site of the Shattering forgotten. It would not surprise me to learn that some of the great features of Roshar were created through cymatics back when the world was still known as Yolen. This could have been through the deific music of Adonalsium. It could have been through the non-shardic "gods" of Yolen before the Shattering as referenced in WoB. Or perhaps it was simply as a result *of* the Shattering. That great release of Investiture carried with it the rhythms, the pulses, of that investiture, which were so great that they created structures such as the Windblades in an instant. In any event, I expect it shall be seen that such features of ancient Roshar are in fact relics, not of an older Roshar, but of Yolen. (Woolheads might say that Urithiru is Rhuidean, but things like the Windblades are straight up Paaran Disen.) Finally, it may well suggest that Frost has been on Roshar this whole time. Perhaps we've seen him already. Or perhaps he's a Sleepless who is also a Kandra, okay I'm tired I'm a stop now. Thanks for reading. Hope you all went long on tinfoil stonks.
  6. As title says, I think that Rosharan system is influenced not by 3, but 4 Shards. Autonomys power here is, of course, not large enough to threat any other Shard alone - she is mainly on Taldain - but is large enough to make a difference. In fact, I think it did. First, Ashynite magic system. We know that now is We can clearly see that this is still Surge-based system: - gravity, flight - Gravitation Surge - changing the color of objects, prophecy - Ilumination Surge (Physical, Spiritual) - passing through walls - Cohesion or Transportation Surge But we also know that Magic System has changed after Shattering. Or, I think, DURRING Shattering. Current magic on Ashyn has basis standard for Rosharan system, but second very important part of magic, Focus of Investiture, has similar to systems tied to Autonomy. - in SandMastery Focus is also microbs - in Aviars Focus is parasites - what is sort of disease. Both are also rather small living things separate from host. We also know that radical change in planet Magic System most likely is caused by other Shard Influence - we saw this on Sel, we saw this on Threnody (both Influenced by Odium). We have to wait, what happen on Scadrial, but this can be very interesting. This could also easily break this Theory. So I think Autonomy come to Roshar slightly after Odium. We dont know how Autonomy make his Avatars, is he making them on place, ot on Taldain and they have to walk through Shadesmar? So, we dont know, but this isnt important. Avatar of Autonomy is on Ashyn. Why? Because in this System we have 3 Shards, 2 are cooperating. It is something what isnt good from Autonomy point of view. Why she doesnt influence Scadrial, you would ask? Answer is - She did. Its not accident that on Scadrial we had Ancient religion focused on Stars and dualism, with the same name of God what apears now as other Shards influence. Trell was always on Scadrial. But come back to Theory. Autonomy has Avatar on Ashyn and try to influence people. Odium, of course, dont going to like it. Probably even, Autonomy is primarly against Honor and Cultivation, but Odium dont gong to give her "his" followers. So followers of Autonomy and Odium starts to fight. And... they destroy entire planet. Is possible that it was Honors plot, because Dawnshards, artifacts with power of Bonding, can be from Honor. But this is speculation. So, Ashyn was destroyed in war between Odium and Autonomy. Odium followers ran on Roshar. Autonomy followers stayd on Ashyn mostly, but some of them were also between refugees, so they influence later stories, what starts Vorinism: Odium and Autonomy made a truce for now. Odium shifts his focus on his primar goal, against Honor and Cultivation. In fact, this is also Autonomy first goal, so they decide to cooperate. Of course, they dont trust each other. But they have one goal, so they are allies. In fact, for Odium this was like blessing, because Honor had Cultivations help and was prepared, not like Dominion earlier (yes, I think Dominion was the one who fought Odium, but ironicly, he wasnt target, Devotion was), also Cutivation is not like Devotion or Preservation, she is positive, but can be really ruthless. So Odium need something to have Cultivation in check, while he was fighting Honor. And Autonomy was perfect - not strong enough to threat him, but strong enough to stop Cultivation long enough for Odium to kill Honor. Of course, Autonomy will be not strong for Stop Cultivation, if she will decide strike with full strengh, so Odium still wasnt able to completly destroy Honor remnants, but this always is some time. So this is why Odium was sceraming famous "WE KILLED YOU!" - He wasnt alone this time, Autonomy was stopping Cultivation and helping Him. Also, Ashyn alone is very... Autonomy-alike. Isolated enclaves, Isolated floating cities, not very known among worldhoppers, with not many visitors... What do you think? Make this sence? Or is this too streched?
  7. TL;DR Dawnshards "bind" things to powers, sorta. They were used to make the Surge fabrials, and before that, were used on Ashyn to create the disease magic, a pandemic of which is what led to the Exodus. I can't actually take full credit for the theory; I saw the theory they were used to make Soulcasters elsewhere, but I can't remember where to give credit, unfortunately. So far as I know, however, the latter theory is my own. First, what do we know about these things? Now, for wild speculation connecting these things! Here's the ones I'm at least semi-confident in: But what about the parts you aren't confident in? Alright then, he's some much more stretch-y parts of the theory/smaller separate theories. I'm here for crazy theories, these at least have some evidence or logic! I want my money back! Closing thoughts [insert my usual disclaimer about typos and odd ways of phrasing things, because I'm too lazy for more than a cursory scan of what I wrote] I'm not convinced of this theory, but I prefer it to just Surge enhancers. So yeah. And I like it more and more as I think about it. And as usual, this theory is somewhat rushed and not super thought through. So may have some glaring issues I didn't notice, idk. Edit: Ah, I first heard the idea on this Shardcast episode. Turns out the base theory is... embarrassingly close to identical to one of the ideas they speculated on. I did expand on it a lot, and speculate about more details, but the basic idea I apparently subconsciously took nearly unchanged. Oops References
  8. First of all, I am not very knowledgeable about Shards in general, I have pondered here and there. We know that once the 16 Shards after being picked up, made a kind of agreement to 1. 2 shards shouldn't settle in one system. 2. Shards will keep away from each other. There could be more agreements but I'm not aware. So we know of many breaches to the agreement above from what we have read in Mistborn and Stormlight series, also on smaller other works. So to the main topic. We know Shards Honor and Cultivation settled on the Rosharan System which has 3 planets. Ashyn, Braize and Roshar. This system was already in place as it was made by ADO. So my question. Did Honor and Cultivation go settle in Roshar from the start? My theory is that no. Maybe Cultivation was in Ashyn and Honor was in Braize. Roshar itself was already made by ADO and had life there as maybe crem. Maybe a young sentient life. But mostly it was stone. So to continue my theory we can imagine the Shards as their vessels or Avatar. Cultivation was in Ashyn. Hers is the surges. Then Odium came looking and Cultivation knew she wasn't powerful enough to fight against him alone causing her to panic and flee. But then Honor agreed to help fleeing Cultivation by trying to hold off Odium so that she can shelter in Roshar. But Honor got wounded but managed to trap Odium in Braize thus leaving Ashyn completely under the influence of Odium. This later caused the destruction of Ashyn once Odium became God there alone. Meanwhile Cultivation induced a lot of Investiture by her presence in Roshar. Later joined by a weakened and deteriorating Honor. They then mutually agreed to keep fighting Odium together with Honor making sure that he doesn't die in vain using his remaining power to set up various precautions against Odium namely Sprens, Unity (Spren of Roshar maybe), Oathpact, Oathgate, Honor's Perpendicularity, Heralds etc. The Sprens started copying their gods and started doing themselves creating the Knights Radiant. Until Odium started getting powerful enough to corrupt Roshar's magic system causing loss of Investiture and killing Honor finally. Personally I think with Cultivation' future sight she is playing the longer game of waiting than Odium who is like ADD hyper active, who eventhough has future sight is just using it for short term gains. Cultivation is in it for much longer. Sorry about the rambling.
  9. theory

    This theory started as a crazy idea in my head (that Voidbinding might be Odium's equivalent of fabrial magic system rather than Surgebinding), but the more I thought about it, the more sense it had, so here it goes: The nature of Odium's magic Based on what we can infer from the nature of the Unmade and the Fused, Odium's magic typically seems to be a twisted and corrupted version of something that already exists. The Fused (and most of the forms of power) were Odium's response to Surgebinders. From a recent reading of this Rhythm of War we know that the Nightwatcher is not a “natural” spren – she was specifically created by Cultivation to not be influenced by the perceptions of humans and given very specific powers (the Old Magic) – and the Unmade seem to mimic that. Although that might seem counterintuitive at first, I believe that Voidbinding and fabrials might be connected in a similar way. Fabrials originated on Ashyn We know that the magic on Ashyn wasn't always disease-based, but used Surges somehow. Given that: we have a WoB suggesting that fabrials existed on Ashyn the Dawnshards (originally from Ashyn) and Surge fabrials are both linked to Aimia, which doesn't seem like a coincidence I assume that fabrials are the original magic system of Ashyn, which was then somehow moved to Roshar. On the origin of Voidbinding We know that Voidbinding (in most cases) originates with the Unmade. They can provide it in an indirect way: Sja-anat can corrupt true Spren and Ba-Ado-Mishram could possibly have been responsible for some Voidbinding-related forms of power (e.g. the Nightform) that are noticeably absent on modern Roshar. That's not “pure” Voidbinding, however – not in the sense described by the Voidbinding chart. The Unmade are probably the Voidbinding's equivalent of Bondsmith spren, granting Voidish versions of the Surges of Tension and Adhesion. But what about the other Voidbinding “orders” (levels?) shown in the Voidbinding chart? They are not only missing (their spren imprisoned on Braize?) but completely forgotten – in popular consciousness Voidbinding is only associated with the Unmade and predicting the future. Why is that? Voidbinding has ten levels, so it cannot be originally from Braize – that leaves us with either Roshar or Ashyn. It was well understood by humans once (someone must have created the chart, assuming it's an in-universe document) but it's barely known by the ancient Singers (Turash is surprised that the Voidspren can even bond humans). That strongly implies Ashyn – which makes sense. If Voidbinding existed (alongside fabrials) long before Surgebinding and the Fused, the knowledge of both was probably partially forgotten and partially suppressed, as they both might have been part of Ashyn's downfall. Voidbinding Initiation and the Wheel of Time analogy OK, so how do you become a Voidbinder? We know that humans can be temporarily affected by the Unmade (the Thrill, death rattles etc.) and even temporarily bond some (probably lesser) Voidspren (Amaram's army). That requires a particular mental state (broadly described as giving your pain or control to Odium), but that alone doesn't constitute Voidbinding yet. We have, however, one example of an attempted bond that goes further – Aesudan's and Amaram's bond with Yelig-nar, which requires swallowing a gemstone and trying to control him. While the first part is probably not necessary for all Voidbinding spren, I believe that gemstones and trying to control the power might be, next to the right emotional state, crucial elements of Voidbinding Initiation (though predicting how a said gemstone could be used is very hard). Based on that, we can actually make an interesting analogy to the basic principles of channeling from Wheel of Time. The magic of Ashyn represent saidin. You have to capture and take control of the spren in order to use magic. An incredible amount of power can be held by individuals with the help of Dawnshards (equivalents of saidin-specific Sa'angreal) and it literally led to the destruction of the world. Roshar, on the other hand, is more about saidar. Magic systems that originated there require a submission to either Oaths or Voidspren possession. What is more, Singers, the original inhabitants of Roshar, have the natural ability to link their power (just look at the summoning of the Everstorm) and in large number might potentially act like a saidar-specific Sa'angreal (I wonder if the whole Singer race could count as a Dawnshard different from the rest...)
  10. This is something I came up with at 3 am, so let me know if it gets too crazy Here it goes: We know that Ashyn doesn't currently have any Shard (WoB), but a question if there was ever a Shard there is considered a spoiler (WoB). Ashyn magic wasn't always disease-based (WoB), but used to similar to surgebinding (WoB). Given that Ashyn people used Dawnshards “known to bind any creature voidish or mortal” (Poem of Ista) to destroy their planet and were able to escape it using powers “of spren and Surges” (Eila Stele), it seems certain that there were spren (and therefore probably a Shard) there. Could that Shard be Odium? That seems very unlikely – it would mean that sometime during his Shard killing spree he decided to make a stop (next to a dishardic planet!), Invest there and give people weapons potentially able to harm him (Dawnshards). No, Odium would make a detour to Ashyn only if there was a real threat to him there that needed to be neutralized before taking care of Roshar. That leaves Cultivation and Honor, but as far as we know they've Invested in Roshar before the arrival of humans, so it's unlikely that any of them is responsible for Ashyn magic. My theory is that this Shard was a child of Cultivation and Honor – Unity. It was confirmed that Shards Vessels could have children (WoB) and that being a Shard affects pregnancy (WoB). I assume here that a Shardic child would be considered a Shard with a big asterisk (using terminology from this WoB on Patji), but would still count as two Shards together with their parents (Tanavast + Slammer + Unity = Honor + Cultivation). This way, we still have three Shards overall in the Rosharan system, even though the number of Vessels may not match. Unity would probably have a very atypical childhood (to say the least), so many human concepts (such as gender) could be foreign to them – and this attitude would be shared with their godspren, the Sibling (WoB). It's hard to say if Unity would have their own type of Investiture, but if they used Cultivationlight (WoB) instead, it would explain why we see so little of it compared to Stormlight. Finally, Unity would explain why we see two mixed (Cultivation + Honor) magic systems – Surgebinding was created directly by their Investment in Roshar and fabrials (part of the another magic system per this WoB) were originally developed on Ashyn by Unity and then brought to Roshar by humans. The latter is corroborated by the fact that humans left Ashyn using a type of Oathgate before there were any fabrials on Roshar at all (this WoB, though it's technically not canonized yet due to Spiritual Realm mechanics issues). At the beginning Unity would be underpowered as a Shard, but nothing stops them from travelling across Cosmere. gathering unclaimed Honor/Cultivation Investiture and growing stronger. This would also explain Unity's apparent effect on some of Cosmere's religions (Shu-Keseg concept of unity on Sel, “The One” worshipped by Iriali who later travel to Roshar). This sounds a lot like Autonomy, doesn't it? I think this might set up a future (post–Stormlight) conflict between both Shards, which can be seen as opposing forces. I also believe that at some point during their Cosmere journey, Unity recruited Dysian Aimians (whom we know to be worldhoppers present on many worlds: WoB here and here) as their agents, possibly because of their nature being an actual embodiment of Unity's intent. Anyway, Unity finally brings some humans to the Rosharan system, settles on Ashyn and Invests there, creating a fabrial–based magic system using Dawnshards (probably Unity's splinters, analogically to Honor and Honorblades). What are Dawnshards? I think they're tools for capturing, storing and transforming spren of any kind. The first two are kind of obvious, but what about transformation? We know that in many ways spren behave like wave–functions in quantum mechanics (flamespren study in one of interludes in The Way Of Kings). If so, we should theoretically see things like quantum superposition or Bose–Einstein condensates. In Cosmere terms, it would mean that spren could be merged with each other to create something new. Merging lesser spren associated with a given order of Knights Radiant is already believed by many to be the source of Shardplates. I believe that a similar process, merging of one or many inkspren and lighspren, leads to the creation of unique Oathgate spren (the same mechanism applies to other Surge fabrial spren as well). This could also explain the origin of the Unmade, who were “made, then unmade”. Not created or born. Made – created from other spren by Dawnshards, only to be later corrupted by Odium. For example, Yelig–nar might have originally been an attempt to create a spren able to form Nahel Bond giving all the surges (Rosharan version of lerasium, basically). Re–Shephir seems like a supercharged version of creationspren, Chemoarish – ashspren etc. We know that one Dawnshard is different from the rest (WoB) and that at least one of them is “known to bind any creature voidish or mortal” (Poem of Ista). I believe they're one and the same, and that binding a mortal creature means creating a Cognitive Shadow copy of a person, providing exactly the same form of immortality that the Heralds and the Fused would later use. What is more, this particular Dawnshard seems to be still active on Roshar. That's why Dalinar can be forgiven by Evi during the Battle of Thaylen Field and that's why his second vision of Nohadon is so strange – they are both Cognitive Shadows. The Tranquiline Halls myth in Vorinism is not just a tale of how people left Ashyn – it has additional hidden meaning. Some chosen people don't just go Beyond, they are given some sort of immortality to join the fight with Odium (or be useful to Unity in other ways). I think that's the reason Odium created Moelach. His power seems useless to Odium at first, but he can “seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body” (Diagram) and works “at the transition point between realms. When a soul was nearing the Tranquiline Halls” (Hessi's Mythica). He can prevent a person from being captured by a Dawnshard and extract information from them (something the Sleepless of Aimia are afraid in Kaza's interlude in Oathbringer). Moelach's purpose is to search for Dawnshards and interfere with their activity. It's hard to tell if Cognitive Shadows can be merged just as spren, but if they do, that might potentially explain the weird nature of Cusicesh the Protector with it's multitude of rapidly changing human faces. The special Dawnshard also provides an explanation for another question – how Unity could survive their fight with Odium. Before Ashyn was destroyed, Unity's followers (the Sleepless) escaped to Roshar with two Dawnshards. One of them, used for creating Surge fabrials, ended up in Aimia (WoB). The other one, storing a copy of Unity's mind, was hidden by Cultivation (we know that her magic can hide things from Odium – Lift hides from Odium in one of Dalinar's visions). Where such a thing could be stored? My best bet is the Origin of Storms. This place is clearly important, as indicated by Puuli's interlude and Wandersail story (also, Cusicesh always looks in that direction). If the Highstorm really originates there (or, more likely, simply recharges there), the place must be full of Investiture to power a device storing Cognitive Shadows of a Shard and a great number of people. Also, as Investiture resists Investiture, the Origin would be very hard to spy on by Odium's forces. As a result, Odium isn't aware that Unity is alive until the Thaylen Field (his future sight is useless here, as Cultivation and Unity are together equally good at it, or even better) and ends up screaming "No, we killed you. We killed you!". tl;dr version: Unity is the child of Cultivation of Honor and the original Shard on Ashyn. They created the first fabrial–based magic system utilizing Dawnshards that can (A) bind and merge spren into more powerful, unique spren (e.g. Surge fabrial spren) and (B) create Cognitive Shadow copies of people. Using the latter, a Cognitive Shadow of Unity survived the fight with Odium and was hiding with Cultivation's help, planning to strike Odium and finally revealing themselves during the Battle of Thaylen Field.
  11. The unmade clearly were once something different likely of honor or cultivation. My theory is that they were the dawnshards. My evidence is the abilities of one of the unmade an and the quote of one of the dawnshards. The quote from a poem that jasnah finds while researching in the palinaeum about the dawnshards states roughly it can bind any creature voidish or not. This sounds similar to the unmade that can bind the chosen and allow them to manipulate the surges. However it could just also be that the dawnshard is a reflection of the surge of connection uses by the bondsmith. Also the fact that there are nine unmade indicates that they originate in braize. This is my best guess.
  12. The unmade clearly were once something different likely of honor or cultivation. My theory is that they were the dawnshards. My evidence is the abilities of one of the unmade an and the quote of one of the dawnshards. The quote from a poem that jasnah finds while researching in the palinaeum about the dawnshards states roughly it can bind any creature voidish or not. This sounds similar to the unmade that can bind the chosen and allow them to manipulate the surges. However it could just also be that the dawnshard is a reflection of the surge of connection uses by the bondsmith. Also the fact that there are nine unmade indicates that they originate in braize. This is my best guess.
  13. THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR STORMLIGHT ARCHIVES, SILENCE DIVINE, AND ARCANUM UNBOUNDED. And I don't know how to make spoiler boxes. So, Ashyn. The first world from the sun in the Greater Rosharan system, with no [current] Shard and disease-based magic. And a novella (The Silnce Divine, which may be renamed) which will hopefully come out in the next five years or so. There are several theories and some (but not much) information about. Hopefully, this thread can be the base for that theorizing about, and a place to collect all those elusive WoBs. So first, the major facts: 1. It is the first planet from the sun in the Greater Rosharan System, with no known moons. Humans live there in upside-down, floating cities and farm the few fertile patches. 2. At some point in its history, it suffered a major cataclysm which destroyed most of the planet's surface- hence the few fertile patches. The reading Brandon did described the surface as burning, lines of red writhing across the surface. 3. It currently has no Shard, although Brandon RAFO'd a question on if it used to have a Shard. 4. The magic system is disease based. The diseases grant certain magical abilities, with prophecy and flight/floating being shown in the story. Second, the [major] theories: 1. The most prominent theory is that Ashyn is the basis for the Tranquiline Halls in Vorinism on Roshar, which, if true, indicates some contact between the two in the past. 2. Another theory suggests that Cultivation used to live on Ashyn before the cataclysm, and then went to Roshar. The problem with this is that there are people still on Ashyn, so why she would abandon them is unclear. 3. Yet another, not so important theory is that Ashyn is the Reya's Tear star seen from Roshar. Planets do look like especially bright stars if you don't know the difference, so it is possible. Actually, there is not much talk about Ashyn. Not much information either. Ah well.... My first theory: 1. Ashyn's magic system bears a resemblance to First of the Sun's magic system. Both use symbiosis to grant powers through natural means, unlike the various Shardworld system that we've seen. This indicates that First of the Sun's and Ashyn's magic systems may have been designed by Adonalsium, and therefore predate his Shattering. 2. The Vorin legends on Roshar indicate that Ashyn's cataclysm may have been caused by Odium (the Voidbringers kicked mankind out of the Tranquiline Halls). However, a passing mention of the danger of the diseases in the reading indicates that a disease-granted power may have been the cause. Any other information or theories? Please post it here! Here is the transcription: [Eelyell?] was awakened by the whispering of the dead child who followed him.“Haszh betaszh bejzak” The girl’s words were often gibberish, though usually he could make out a few of them. Tonight he couldn’t even understand a single one. Which made the whispering even more eerie.[Eelyell] sat up in his cot realizing he had fallen asleep in his uniform again. He looked across the darkened room, seeking out the child. There, she hid in the shadows beside the wooden bin that held his canes. Small, maybe four years old, she had long straight blonde hair that hung down by her face, ears peeking out like rocks in the sand.She met his eyes, “Haszh betazh bejzak,” she whispered. It would be nice when that particular Echo passed.[Eelyell] rose tugging at his crumpled jacket, still enough of a soldier to feel ashamed at its state. His father would have had [Eelyell]]’s head if he’d seen such a uniform. Climbing from bed [Eelyell] took the cane beside it for support, then walked out onto the balcony. He put his back to the dead child, she was a figment, an echo, a side-effect from an Incubation he’d done a few years back. It was so long ago that he was losing hope that this Echo would ever fade. He might be stuck with a hallucination, for good.He stepped out onto the balcony, using the cane by habit though he was currently strong enough that he didn’t need it to walk. He was recovering from his Incubation two months back. The grind from that one had finally worn off. In fact he was probably too strong, he’d been getting too much sleep lately, eating too well. He needed to keep a certain level of physical weakness so he could be open to Incubations, assuming he wanted to remain effective in his duties. And he did want to remain effective, for his own reasons, if not for the Corps themselves.Outside on the balcony, the sky burned. It smoldered high above, deep red lines, the color of a serpent’s tongue, like rips in the air. The magma cast a warm red light across the city of [suigmaat]. As always the air smelled faintly of smoke, though he only noticed it when he was first stepping out of the building into the open air. He knew logically that the burning place he saw above was actually the ground. He knew [suigmaat] flew in the air, a city reversed, one of the few bastions of life left in the burning land. [Eelyell] was the one who was upside-down, as were all of the city’s inhabitants. It didn’t feel that way to him, he’d lived here too long. Upward was towards the burning ground and the land, downwards was toward the sky and the sun. Things he never saw except on the rare occasion he was called upon to visit the farms and orchards on the city’s sunward side.[Eelyell] stood for a time, holding to the cast-iron railing, staring up at the burning swathes high above. Molten rivers, a land destroyed. A warning flag, raised to them all. Omnipresent. Undeniable. The city itself slept beneath that scarlet glare, bathed in red.“Hiszh betaszh druk,” the girl whispered from behind. She’d crawled out onto the balcony and now sat there looking up at the air.[Eelyell] glanced at her, “Kareem’s gaze you’re a creepy one,” he whispered, “What must I do to be rid of you?”“Hiszh beaszh diruk.”He tapped his finger on the railing and then strode back into his quarters, splashed some water on his face, and checked the sword blade of his walking cane. Seconds later he was out the door.The offices of the Corps did not look as a police station should. A police station was supposed to be a box like thing, stable and functional, designed to indicate to all who visited that this was not a place where nonsense was permitted. Those ornamented columns, etched with the silver serpents of [Mokdeelor], those golden doors, those soldiers with ridiculous feathered helms. Those were not the symbols of efficient law-keeping. In [Eelyell]’s opinion they were quite the opposite.He walked up the steps and approached the guards, who were at least armed with functional halberds and two foot-long pistols at the belt. They saluted him by raising fists to their sides. As an incubator he outranked everyone in this building, except of course the ones who actually mattered. [Eelyell] felt a moment of lightheadedness at the top of the steps and was forced to pause there, gripping the railing and leaning on his cane. So he wasn’t completely well, good. Neither guard stepped to help him, weakness was expected of Incubators, one of the marks of their station and being near one of them at the wrong time could be dangerous. One need only to look upward at the burning land to be reminded of just how dangerous.When his head cleared, he continued up the steps, cane clicking, and passed the men without returning their salute. He stopped just inside the building however, coming alert. Motion. Lesser watchmen calling to one another in a large room, aides carrying stacks of paper. Red eyes and yawns accompanied both groups. Many of these people had been called up unexpectedly, despite the very early hour.“[Eelyell]?” A woman rushed up to him through the bustle. [Cual] wore the yellow and blue uniform of an Incubator, like his own but better fitting and far better cut. “You look like ash man,” she said, “Aren’t you still on grind leave?”[Eelyell] looked back at the hall, reading the motion of the bodies. Nobody was going to the weapon’s locker, though riot gear had been set out to the side. Large metal shields and larger swords cordoned in rubber from trees that grew on the sunward side. The people here were getting ready for something, but he didn’t know what yet. A prophecy, he guessed.“I still can’t believe they called you up,” [Cual] said, “You deserve some relaxation after--”“I will visit [Patseepa],” [Eelyell] interupted, striding through the room and leaving [Cual] behind. He tried not to let himself be carried away in the chaos. The event that he was waiting for would come eventually, but this might not be it. [Patseepa] made prophesies with some frequency, that was why the Corps maintained her, and why she carried her terrible burden.It was difficult not to feel tense however, in the rooms frenzy. Nearby a scribe turned and accidentally knocked over an hourglass, smashing it to the floor and spraying sand across it. He spared the sand a glance, it always drew his attention, but he otherwise ignored it, focussing on a set of doors at the back of the room. This must have been an alarming prophecy in deed to cause such a fuss. The guards at these doors were even more flowery with feathers on their shields after an old fashion style almost no one used any longer. The [Moknee] people were now as advanced a people as [Eelyell] had ever known. His own browning-tan skin and dark hair blended in here well enough that he could have passed more [Moknee] himself, assuming he didn’t open his mouth. Which he was never good at doing.These guards let him pass too and no scribes or watchmen beset him in the hall beyond. Only Incubators were allowed in here. Unfortunately while they presented a more solemn group, it was no less unruly in its own right. Some two dozen of them clumped together at the other end of the darkened hallway like a clot of hair in a drain. [Eelyell] strode forward passing doors on either side set with glass. The small, well-lit rooms beyond weren’t exactly cells, just like their occupants weren’t exactly prisoners, they just couldn’t leave. With the hallways dark and the rooms lit, each window glowed, like they looked into other worlds. Other worlds inhabited by the sick.It was hard to think of it that way, after so long in this land. The people in those rooms were not simply ill, they were lay Incubators, their job was to stay in those little rooms, bearing their afflictions until they started to recover. Whereupon another individual would be brought in to catch their malady, ensuring the Incubation itself didn’t vanish. It was good money, assuming you didn’t mind the discomfort, which could range from the sniffles to deadly fevers, depending on the Incubation you agreed to receive. And of course there were... other benefits. In one room he passed the occupant, a young man, hovered in the air, reading a book and in another an elderly woman idly tapped on a cup, changing the color of the liquid inside with each tap. In [suigmaat], in fact on this entire land, every disease also granted a special capacity. That ability lasted as long as the ailment did. Many of these blessings were minor, while others were grand. Some few were very, very dangerous. Hence the existence of the Incubators, and of the Corps itself. In-depth look at the reading: The mention of pistols, and the whole floating-city thing, indicates that they may possess some amount of technological advances. However, they are still using swords, helms, and metal shields, so this may be magic-based in nature. It does mention glass doors and rubber, which are fairly recent advancements. There are only "a few bastions of civilization left", so there are probably not that many floating cities. Also, the food supply probably severely limits population growth. The city "suigmaat" (spelling may be wrong) is one of these, and is home to the Moknee people. The feather decorations and black hair/browning-tan skin may indicate a Native American-esque influence. The other cities possibly possess different cultures and levels of technology. Sunward side: Indicates that the planet may not be rotating around an axis. May or may not pre-date or have been caused by the global cataclysm.
  14. In the exerpt of The Silence Divine that Brandon read from a while back, we learn that Ashyn has magic that involves a person getting infected with a disease, and that disease grants them powers as long as it is active in their system. We also have a WoB saying that in some cases, those diseases cause a flaw. This sounds suspiciously like the Nightwatcher's Boon/Curse mechanic. Since Ashyn is in the same solar system as Roshar, even though it doesn't have a Shard directly dwelling there, I propose that the magical influence of Honor and Cultivation dwelling on Roshar is nonetheless enough to have Ashyn follow many of the same concepts as Rosharan magic. 1. Brandon has said that the magic on Ashyn is the same basic principles, with the system being a little different. This theory would fit with that statement. 2. Bonds: On Roshar, people attain magic by forming a bond with a spren. On Ashyn, I theorize that they attain magic by forming a similar, weaker bond with bacteria or viruses. This bond allows them to use some version of the surges, perhaps in more limited ways. Then, once their immune system kills the infection, the bond breaks, and they need to reform it. In the reading, we see a woman changing a goblet of liquid into other types of liquid (Soulcasting/Transformation?) and others are able to float/fly (Gravitation?) or see the future (perhaps Odium's influence/Moelach?) 3. Boon/curse: On Roshar, people can go to the Nightwatcher and receive a boon and a curse. From the WoB above, at least some of the powers on Ashyn work the same way. You get the power to float a city, but you go deaf while having that power. 4. Echoes: (Wild speculation) I also theorize that the Echoes are from the accumulation of the dead bacteria's spiritwebs. We've never seen what happens if a spren permanently dies while being bonded to a Radiant. Since it seems likely that the Radiant and spren's spiritwebs are partially merged (more and more) as the bond grows, I'm thinking that if the spren dies, a piece of their spiritweb would be left in the Radiant. If this is the case, then the bacteria or viruses that are dying while bonded to the Corpsperson might be leaving behind tiny spiritwebs of their own. With enough time, that accumulation could cause the Echoes that they experience. Thoughts?
  15. We know that humans from the Rosharan system came to Roshar from Ashyn. When they did so, they brought odium with them. They also brought surgebinding, as mentioned in the Aila Stele. But radiants and surgebinders as we saw them are a result of bonding spren of honour and cultivation, where the fused utilise voidbinding by bonding with spren of odium. So basically, would it not make sense that surgebinders on Ashyn were more like the fused in that they use voidlight and voidbinding as granted them by odium? This would then discount concerns about radiants destroying roshar because it's surgebinding granted by powers not prone to deatruction as odium is. I welcome any input.
  16. I was reading something in another thread about how unsealed gold metalminds would be very popular on Threnody, and I started thinking about how they would work on Ashyn. From what we know you have to get sick in order to have magic. It seems to me that an unsealed gold metalmind would come in very handy for those who want to get sick quickly. And it would be handy to have around when you are ready to be healthy again as well, since you've already stored your health.
  17. Hey team, I apologise in advance if this post isn't particularly well laid out - I have little time at the moment and a thought just struck me so I wanted to get it down before I forget about it, and I don't know if this has been discussed before or already theorized (I had a quick look and couldn't find a mention of it). I agree with @Calderis that there are three specific magic systems that operate in three different ways. I also agree that the fused have not been Voidbinding currently. Essentially the theory is that how magic on Roshar works is that: A) Surgebinding is the system of magic through which the fundamental forces of nature are manipulated through the filter of Honor and Cultivation Fabrials is the system of magic through which these forces of nature can be trapped, stored and then used (this one I am less confident about and would be interested C) Voidbinding is the system of magic through which the fundamental forces of nature are manipulated through the filter of odium. This, especially the Voidbinding postulation, I base on the WOB below. Linked to this, if we consider that Voidbinding is the accessing of the fundamental laws of creation and forces (as per the quote) through Odium, then because humans were originally of odium, and we know that they destroyed their previous home, I believe that humans used Voidbinding to destroy Ashyn. This fundamentally would suggest that humans were the original Voidbinders. This would also tie in nicely to them being the Voidbringers. So to conclude quickly: Voidbinding is the accessing of the forces of creation through the filter of odium and humans were the original voidbinders who used voidbinding to destroy Ashyn.
  18. I’m not confident enough in this to call it a theory, but I do think there is some significant support for the idea I just had. The Vorins consider the Old Magic and Nightwatcher to be synonymous and blasphemous. Since we know the humans on Roshar originated elsewhere (Ashyn), I believe the Old Magic actually refers to the magic of Ashyn. Since that magic (boon) is granted by sickness (curse), it makes sense that the Nightwatcher’s activities would come to be associated with that, particularly after enough time had passed for the Rosharan humans had forgotten their other worldly origins, but would still have vague myths and legends about how the Old Magic operated and it matched up with the Nightwatchers boon/curse game. Now if this is true, it MIGHT imply that ALL magic from Roshar is surgebinding, all magic from Braize is voidbinding, and all magic from Ashyn is the Old Magic...in other words, the shardic source of the investiture doesn’t determine the magic, the planet of origin does.
  19. Hello and welcome, I don't post theories or interpretations very often but this is one that I wanted to get off my chest. Ashyn isn't the Tranquiline Halls, Roshar is. Now, very quickly, I want to make sure that I am not misinterpreted: I am not claiming that humans did not come from Ashyn, the vast majority of humans on Roshar are descended from Ashynites that fled their self-caused cataclysm. What I am claiming is that the Vorin mythology of humanities fight for the Tranquiline Halls is originally a singer tale, co-opted by humanity and twisted into their own theology. So, I just want to establish the mixing of cultures that has occurred between humans and singers on Roshar. I only have 2 (Maybe 2.5) examples of this. I wish I had more but I feel we don't know enough about old singer culture to say what came from them other than what we have been told directly. 1. Human use of the term Voidbringers This ones an easy one, Eila Stele shows that singers were the first to refer to humanity as Voidbringers during the first Desolation. We actually also have a little of the opposite happening, with Listener songs describing humanity in a very similar way to the way Midnight Essence are described. Eshonai mentions this in the prologue: 2. Humans took the singer names From Leshwi and Moash's conversation: So what we see here is humanity on Roshar seems to have adopted some of singer culture, intentionally or not. The Tranquiline Halls So, the tale of the Tranquiline Halls has the following as it's main points of belief: Humanity is not native to Roshar Humanity was forced out of their old home by an invading force of Voidbringers When a human dies, their soul sticks around, they are given super powers and get sent to fight for the Tranquiline Halls The Heralds are leading the fight Now, points 1 and 4 we can trace in human culture. We know humans are not native to Roshar, we see Jezrien telling the people this lie in Oathbringer: But where do points 2 and 3 come from in Vorinism? What are the origins of these parts of their belief? Humans weren't pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers. Humans don't die, get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers. But you know who does? Singers were pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers. When singers die, they do get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers. Humanity took the singers world, their god, their names and even their religions. In Vorin myth, Ashyn would be the Tranquiline Halls. In reality, it's Roshar. Thank you for reading.
  20. Keepers on Ashyn would be incredibly powerful. So we know that on ashyn, magic is disease based. The example Brandon gave is that while you have the common cold, you can fly. Now who do we know that can control when they are sick? I think it can generally be agreed upon that for most metals, tapping is better than storing, right? You would rather be fast than slow, healthy than sick, quick of thought than slow, and so on. Unless you are on Ashyn that is. What we know of Ashton is that it is incredibly hot, you get powers from being sick, and people live in the sky. If I were a Feruchemist, I would gladly spend a year or two absolutely miserable in exchange for immortality and an incredibly wealthy and comfortable life. Allow me to explain. So our keeper heads to ashyn, with plenty of extra metalminds of all of the different metals, he finds a nice place to stay, perhaps someone to help take care of him, and he spends the next year or so absolutely miserable. He stores everything. Being in a floating city, its better to weigh less, he needs to store heat, storing senses to keep him from suffering, but most importantly, strength age and health. He needs to be as frail as physically possible. The idea is to get as sick as possible, and store all of those newly gained powers in unkeyed nicrosilminds. So you can see where this is going, he lies in bed for a year and fills all of his metalminds as well as collected tons of powers in his nicrosilminds. Even though he is intentionally close to death this whole time, he is never in danger as if he ever needs it, he can just stop storing and tap a little health to completely recover. Now our keeper, after all this time pumping stuff into his metalminds, can sell his unkeyed nicrosilminds filled with powers, which are vastly more efficient than when normal people get them. For example, if someone has a cold for 3 days, they have the ability to fly for 72 hours, which is being wasted whenever they aren't flying. After 72 hours, the power is gone and the whole time you had it, you were sick. When you use a nicrosilmind though, you can fly for 72 hours, and whenever you aren't flying, you just stop tapping. Say you fly for one hour a day, you fly for 3 days with the cold, so 3 hours. However if you fly with the nicrosilmind, you can fly for 72 hours or 72 days. Far more efficient. So back to our keeper, everyone on this planet can use these powers with the right sickness requirements, so as cool as it is, its nothing special. However... Over on Nalthis, nobody has ever had these powers that you can offer them, and everybody is born with something to offer to you. I bet you could get breaths incredibly easy if you talk to wealthy people with lots of breaths and offer them new magical powers with incredible length of use, remember that our keeper spent a year, or as long as he wants, collecting these powers as well as his own feruchemical powers. Assuming he sells everything he has been collecting in exchange for a massive wealth of breaths, he could gain immortality, awakening, and live a comfortable, powerful, and wealthy life wherever he wants. If he chooses to go back to ashyn and stores a few more powers, he can basically use whatever powers he wants wherever and whenever he wants, on top of his breaths and Feruchemy. Slightly overpowered and awesome if you ask me. I doubt it would happen in Canon, but I would love to see it so much. Tell me what you guys think.
  21. In WoK Kasbal brings up cymatic patterns to try to bring Jasnah to the conclusion that she should join Vorinisim. That got my father and I thinking, and if sand on a plate could vibrate and create patterns, then why wouldn't stone and rubble on an iron core be affected as well? We didn't know why the patterns were on the ground but, The cities would need to vibrate immensely to move mountains into patterns. This would destroy the cities too, and so, the cities couldn't be on the ground. On Ashyn, most people live on huge floating cities because of the great catalyst that forced humans to Roshar. Sadly at the moment, we don't know what runs these ships, but we can assume they vibrated. And thus cymatics come into play. The patterns around certain cities said to be made by the Almighty could be made by the different floating cities. But these cities were also said to be made by... The Almighty. Supposedly, using the Cognitive realm, a few floating cities could slip from Ashyn to Roshar and land, thus bringing the peoples of Ashyn to the planet of Roshar. Kolinar's Windblades, and Sesemalex Dar's patterns could be the results of the floating cities. Urithiru may be an intact floating city, as it looks like a space ship but it may not be. Post comments and thoughts below.
  22. Hello everyone. While talking with some other people recently, I hit on an idea that I think explains humanity's success in their first attack against the Singers. To set the stage, humanity at this point is living in Shinovar, does not have Surgebinding, and is probably less populous than the Singers. How is humanity so successful then, that the Singers feel the need to ally with Odium and create the Fused to fight back? Where does this power that allowed the initial conflicts go? I believe that the answer to both questions is that humanity still had access to Surges... from the diseases of Ashyn. 1) Ashyn's Investiture accesses Surges, and is disease based. This point is the keystone of the whole theory, so first let's look at some WoBs. This WoB vaguely details the mechanics of Ashyn's Investiture. Ashyn's powers are accessed when you grow ill, and they go away when you get better. Additionally we have this WoB. These two things together imply that catching a disease let you access the Surges, in slightly different forms than Radiants currently can. I think we can make a safe assumption that anyone with these diseases is going to be capable of similar feats to those we've see from our Radiants. This brings us to point number two. 2) The Surges allowed humanity the ability to expand aggressively So when humanity arrived on Roshar from Ashyn, they might have had some of these diseases among their population. Humans stayed in Shinovar long enough for some sembalance of peace to exist between Singer and human. However, at some point humanity aggressively expanded, to the point that every major Singer city was captured. Every Dawncity is likely a former Singer capital. How did humanity do this? The Elia Steele gives us a hint: So humanity was using Surges. The problem with this is that the nahel bond could not have existed at this point. The nahel bond mimics the Honorblades, and the Honorblades did not come into existence until the Fused came into existence, which had to have been after this initial aggressive expansion. So how was humanity using the Surges? The diseases of Ashyn. Where did these diseases go, then? Well... 3) The extra Investiture from repeated exposure to Stormlight made humanity too disease resistant Humans expanded aggressively, and then settled in Singer territories, probably very confident in their ability to hold on to their gains. Of course we know that they didn't, so what changed? Humans began to become Invested by the background Investiture of the storms. Every so often, humanity gets bombarded by large amounts of free floating Investiture. Unlike any native life form on Roshar, it has no way to express itself, so in the case of humans it just makes humanity as a whole healthier, and more resistant to disease. This WoB seems to back up this theory: So humanity becomes more disease resistant, the Ashyn diseases start dying off. This leads us to the Second Desolation. Somehow, the Singer have recovered their numbers, and in addition have made a bargain with Odium to create the Fused, the Regals, and access Surges. This puts humanity on the defensive, and requires the Oathpact and eventually the Radiants to give humanity relatively even footing. Conclusion: I think I've made a pretty good argument for the timeline of the first two conflicts between humanity and the Singers. I've left out any mention of Urithuru, because I don't know how it fits in yet. I am also not really sure how the Girl Who Looked Up fits in, unless she somehow allowed stormlight to inundate the Shinovar region like it does the rest of the world. Anyway, would like to hear people's thoughts.
  23. Okay, so I did search through the forum to see if anyone had made this topic and I didn't see any post like this so hopefully there's no problem with this. So within Oathbringer, we find out that humans are the original Voidbringers, yeah? And its part of Vorin belief that the Voidbringers kicked the humans out of the Tranquiline Halls. So basing this on the concept that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn (I'm not sure if this is canon fact, or merely speculation?), but that would mean that Ashyn was the Tranquiline Halls - and this makes even more sense with the confirmation that Braize is Damnation.
  24. So we got confirmation that humans came to Roshar because of a major disaster on their "original" world and that the big secret was that they had destroyed their own planet with surgebinding. This is interesting and has many implications, it will probably take a while to shift through all of them (the book has been out for like 2 days at the time of writing this post haha) but I would like to discuss two theories I had just considering the basics within the context of the Cosmere as we know it. 1. The "Tranquiline Halls" is Ashyn So with the confirmation in text that humans are not native to Roshar, something that has been more or less confirmed through various WoBs over the years so isn't groundbreaking news, we start to wonder where they came from. We know that they arrived as refugees fleeing the devastation of their original home, so the initial group must have come from the same world. I posit that that world is Ashyn, the planet right next to Roshar that we know is a blasted wasteland save a few pockets where humans survive. And that it got that way because as Khriss mentions in her essay on Greater Roshar in AU: it "suffered a cataclysm long ago". It makes logistical sense, a massive number of refuges that would be produced by a global disaster would most likely want to settle in the place that was both safe and as close as possible to limit how long they were displaced. Even with the distance warping of the Cognitive why trek halfway across the galaxy with probably nothing but the clothes on your back when you can find shelter the next planet over? Then there is this Death Rattle from WoK that most people have, again, guessed for years refers in someway to the humans initially displacing the native Parsh: The last sentence is of specific import in this case. The place that is "hollow and forlorn" might refer the Braize, where the cognitive shadows of the genocided Dawnsingers that would later become the Fused were locked up. But the part where the speaker (presumably a human "Voidbringer") claiming that they themselves once burned is probably a reference to the disaster that destroyed their homeworld. And guess what? Back in that essay in Arcanum Unbound Khriss names Ashlyn "the burning planet". Other possibilities for the identity of the Tranquiline Halls would be either 1) Yolen or 2) a yet unnamed planet. I find Yolen unlikely because the chronology seems to indicate a big time lapse before whatever happened to Yolen (assuming it happened in close proximity to the Shattering and the Birth of the 16) and the human refugees showing up with Odium as their god. For one we know he was off chasing Ambition in the space around Therody, and also took time to go murder the Selish shards. Assuming the conflict between Odium and Honor started soon after his arrival in Roshar and hasn't abated since he would have taken an unbelievably short time to accomplish his prior goals. Not to mention that whatever happened to Yolen had nothing to do with surgebinding, but that is not that big of a deal breaker as I will explain shortly. As for a yet unknown world? Well I can't find evidence for or against something we don't know exists now can I? So we should really have someone ask Brandon if the Tranquiline Halls are a world we already know about during the OB tour. 2. The Tranquilline Halls were destroyed, but probably not by surgebinding as we know it So this being the big secret behind the Recreance confused me. I understand how the characters in universe might come to this conclusion but it makes little sense for the Cosmerically aware. Obviously something big *did* happen to the homeland of the humans to make them refugees and this being the Cosmere that thing most likely related to usage of Investiture. But we know that, while a magic user can use their magic anywhere given the right resources, initiation into a magic system requires Connection to a certain Shard and/or a certain planet. As surgebinding as we understand it is a system created by bonding a spren of Honor/Cultivation that has learned to mimic the blades Honor forged from his own soul to give the heralds. And he gave those blades to the heralds to enforce the oathpact. So as we know that H+C came to Roshar before Odium and now know that Odium came with the human refugees. It seems incongruous to believe that surgebinders in the mold of the KR existed and destroyed the Tranquiline Halls BEFORE the humans came to Roshar with Odium, who started a fight with Honor, who then forged an Oathpact with 10 humans, which splinters of H+C's power then copied to create surgebinders. Furthermore in WoR Honor in the visions tells Dalinar he "didn't foresee the coming of the Knights" and confirms Syl's comments about the spren mimicking the Honorblades to produce the surges. But if surgebinders already existed and were the reason the Tranquiline Halls were destroyed, why would the coming of surgbinders surprise Honor? But what if surgebinding existed in a different form and Honor was just surprised to see the spren recreate it? Well then I maintain that you can't assume spren-based surgbinding will have the same result (planetary devastation) as whatever was used back home. Its like Hoid's Lightweaving vrs. Shallan's. Even if the effects are similar or even identical, the mechanics are markedly different. And we haven't considered the Dawnshards which in OB Honor claimed destroyed the Tranquilline Halls as he was in his death throes. So whatever wrecked the homeland of Roshar's humans was not surgbinding (again at least not as we know it) and so the truth behind the Recrence seems to be a tragic misunderstanding by the people involved possibly conflating two different magic systems from two different planets, probably.
  25. Is there a WoB or WoP anywhere saying what the people on Ashyn call Roshar (the planet) or Roshar (the system)? I searched Ashyn in Arcanum but couldn't find anything.