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Found 27 results

  1. As title says, I think that Rosharan system is influenced not by 3, but 4 Shards. Autonomys power here is, of course, not large enough to threat any other Shard alone - she is mainly on Taldain - but is large enough to make a difference. In fact, I think it did. First, Ashynite magic system. We know that now is We can clearly see that this is still Surge-based system: - gravity, flight - Gravitation Surge - changing the color of objects, prophecy - Ilumination Surge (Physical, Spiritual) - passing through walls - Cohesion or Transportation Surge But we also know that Magic System has changed after Shattering. Or, I think, DURRING Shattering. Current magic on Ashyn has basis standard for Rosharan system, but second very important part of magic, Focus of Investiture, has similar to systems tied to Autonomy. - in SandMastery Focus is also microbs - in Aviars Focus is parasites - what is sort of disease. Both are also rather small living things separate from host. We also know that radical change in planet Magic System most likely is caused by other Shard Influence - we saw this on Sel, we saw this on Threnody (both Influenced by Odium). We have to wait, what happen on Scadrial, but this can be very interesting. This could also easily break this Theory. So I think Autonomy come to Roshar slightly after Odium. We dont know how Autonomy make his Avatars, is he making them on place, ot on Taldain and they have to walk through Shadesmar? So, we dont know, but this isnt important. Avatar of Autonomy is on Ashyn. Why? Because in this System we have 3 Shards, 2 are cooperating. It is something what isnt good from Autonomy point of view. Why she doesnt influence Scadrial, you would ask? Answer is - She did. Its not accident that on Scadrial we had Ancient religion focused on Stars and dualism, with the same name of God what apears now as other Shards influence. Trell was always on Scadrial. But come back to Theory. Autonomy has Avatar on Ashyn and try to influence people. Odium, of course, dont going to like it. Probably even, Autonomy is primarly against Honor and Cultivation, but Odium dont gong to give her "his" followers. So followers of Autonomy and Odium starts to fight. And... they destroy entire planet. Is possible that it was Honors plot, because Dawnshards, artifacts with power of Bonding, can be from Honor. But this is speculation. So, Ashyn was destroyed in war between Odium and Autonomy. Odium followers ran on Roshar. Autonomy followers stayd on Ashyn mostly, but some of them were also between refugees, so they influence later stories, what starts Vorinism: Odium and Autonomy made a truce for now. Odium shifts his focus on his primar goal, against Honor and Cultivation. In fact, this is also Autonomy first goal, so they decide to cooperate. Of course, they dont trust each other. But they have one goal, so they are allies. In fact, for Odium this was like blessing, because Honor had Cultivations help and was prepared, not like Dominion earlier (yes, I think Dominion was the one who fought Odium, but ironicly, he wasnt target, Devotion was), also Cutivation is not like Devotion or Preservation, she is positive, but can be really ruthless. So Odium need something to have Cultivation in check, while he was fighting Honor. And Autonomy was perfect - not strong enough to threat him, but strong enough to stop Cultivation long enough for Odium to kill Honor. Of course, Autonomy will be not strong for Stop Cultivation, if she will decide strike with full strengh, so Odium still wasnt able to completly destroy Honor remnants, but this always is some time. So this is why Odium was sceraming famous "WE KILLED YOU!" - He wasnt alone this time, Autonomy was stopping Cultivation and helping Him. Also, Ashyn alone is very... Autonomy-alike. Isolated enclaves, Isolated floating cities, not very known among worldhoppers, with not many visitors... What do you think? Make this sence? Or is this too streched?
  2. TL;DR Dawnshards "bind" things to powers, sorta. They were used to make the Surge fabrials, and before that, were used on Ashyn to create the disease magic, a pandemic of which is what led to the Exodus. I can't actually take full credit for the theory; I saw the theory they were used to make Soulcasters elsewhere, but I can't remember where to give credit, unfortunately. So far as I know, however, the latter theory is my own. First, what do we know about these things? Now, for wild speculation connecting these things! Here's the ones I'm at least semi-confident in: But what about the parts you aren't confident in? Alright then, he's some much more stretch-y parts of the theory/smaller separate theories. I'm here for crazy theories, these at least have some evidence or logic! I want my money back! Closing thoughts [insert my usual disclaimer about typos and odd ways of phrasing things, because I'm too lazy for more than a cursory scan of what I wrote] I'm not convinced of this theory, but I prefer it to just Surge enhancers. So yeah. And I like it more and more as I think about it. And as usual, this theory is somewhat rushed and not super thought through. So may have some glaring issues I didn't notice, idk. Edit: Ah, I first heard the idea on this Shardcast episode. Turns out the base theory is... embarrassingly close to identical to one of the ideas they speculated on. I did expand on it a lot, and speculate about more details, but the basic idea I apparently subconsciously took nearly unchanged. Oops References
  3. First of all, I am not very knowledgeable about Shards in general, I have pondered here and there. We know that once the 16 Shards after being picked up, made a kind of agreement to 1. 2 shards shouldn't settle in one system. 2. Shards will keep away from each other. There could be more agreements but I'm not aware. So we know of many breaches to the agreement above from what we have read in Mistborn and Stormlight series, also on smaller other works. So to the main topic. We know Shards Honor and Cultivation settled on the Rosharan System which has 3 planets. Ashyn, Braize and Roshar. This system was already in place as it was made by ADO. So my question. Did Honor and Cultivation go settle in Roshar from the start? My theory is that no. Maybe Cultivation was in Ashyn and Honor was in Braize. Roshar itself was already made by ADO and had life there as maybe crem. Maybe a young sentient life. But mostly it was stone. So to continue my theory we can imagine the Shards as their vessels or Avatar. Cultivation was in Ashyn. Hers is the surges. Then Odium came looking and Cultivation knew she wasn't powerful enough to fight against him alone causing her to panic and flee. But then Honor agreed to help fleeing Cultivation by trying to hold off Odium so that she can shelter in Roshar. But Honor got wounded but managed to trap Odium in Braize thus leaving Ashyn completely under the influence of Odium. This later caused the destruction of Ashyn once Odium became God there alone. Meanwhile Cultivation induced a lot of Investiture by her presence in Roshar. Later joined by a weakened and deteriorating Honor. They then mutually agreed to keep fighting Odium together with Honor making sure that he doesn't die in vain using his remaining power to set up various precautions against Odium namely Sprens, Unity (Spren of Roshar maybe), Oathpact, Oathgate, Honor's Perpendicularity, Heralds etc. The Sprens started copying their gods and started doing themselves creating the Knights Radiant. Until Odium started getting powerful enough to corrupt Roshar's magic system causing loss of Investiture and killing Honor finally. Personally I think with Cultivation' future sight she is playing the longer game of waiting than Odium who is like ADD hyper active, who eventhough has future sight is just using it for short term gains. Cultivation is in it for much longer. Sorry about the rambling.
  4. theory

    This theory started as a crazy idea in my head (that Voidbinding might be Odium's equivalent of fabrial magic system rather than Surgebinding), but the more I thought about it, the more sense it had, so here it goes: The nature of Odium's magic Based on what we can infer from the nature of the Unmade and the Fused, Odium's magic typically seems to be a twisted and corrupted version of something that already exists. The Fused (and most of the forms of power) were Odium's response to Surgebinders. From a recent reading of this Rhythm of War we know that the Nightwatcher is not a “natural” spren – she was specifically created by Cultivation to not be influenced by the perceptions of humans and given very specific powers (the Old Magic) – and the Unmade seem to mimic that. Although that might seem counterintuitive at first, I believe that Voidbinding and fabrials might be connected in a similar way. Fabrials originated on Ashyn We know that the magic on Ashyn wasn't always disease-based, but used Surges somehow. Given that: we have a WoB suggesting that fabrials existed on Ashyn the Dawnshards (originally from Ashyn) and Surge fabrials are both linked to Aimia, which doesn't seem like a coincidence I assume that fabrials are the original magic system of Ashyn, which was then somehow moved to Roshar. On the origin of Voidbinding We know that Voidbinding (in most cases) originates with the Unmade. They can provide it in an indirect way: Sja-anat can corrupt true Spren and Ba-Ado-Mishram could possibly have been responsible for some Voidbinding-related forms of power (e.g. the Nightform) that are noticeably absent on modern Roshar. That's not “pure” Voidbinding, however – not in the sense described by the Voidbinding chart. The Unmade are probably the Voidbinding's equivalent of Bondsmith spren, granting Voidish versions of the Surges of Tension and Adhesion. But what about the other Voidbinding “orders” (levels?) shown in the Voidbinding chart? They are not only missing (their spren imprisoned on Braize?) but completely forgotten – in popular consciousness Voidbinding is only associated with the Unmade and predicting the future. Why is that? Voidbinding has ten levels, so it cannot be originally from Braize – that leaves us with either Roshar or Ashyn. It was well understood by humans once (someone must have created the chart, assuming it's an in-universe document) but it's barely known by the ancient Singers (Turash is surprised that the Voidspren can even bond humans). That strongly implies Ashyn – which makes sense. If Voidbinding existed (alongside fabrials) long before Surgebinding and the Fused, the knowledge of both was probably partially forgotten and partially suppressed, as they both might have been part of Ashyn's downfall. Voidbinding Initiation and the Wheel of Time analogy OK, so how do you become a Voidbinder? We know that humans can be temporarily affected by the Unmade (the Thrill, death rattles etc.) and even temporarily bond some (probably lesser) Voidspren (Amaram's army). That requires a particular mental state (broadly described as giving your pain or control to Odium), but that alone doesn't constitute Voidbinding yet. We have, however, one example of an attempted bond that goes further – Aesudan's and Amaram's bond with Yelig-nar, which requires swallowing a gemstone and trying to control him. While the first part is probably not necessary for all Voidbinding spren, I believe that gemstones and trying to control the power might be, next to the right emotional state, crucial elements of Voidbinding Initiation (though predicting how a said gemstone could be used is very hard). Based on that, we can actually make an interesting analogy to the basic principles of channeling from Wheel of Time. The magic of Ashyn represent saidin. You have to capture and take control of the spren in order to use magic. An incredible amount of power can be held by individuals with the help of Dawnshards (equivalents of saidin-specific Sa'angreal) and it literally led to the destruction of the world. Roshar, on the other hand, is more about saidar. Magic systems that originated there require a submission to either Oaths or Voidspren possession. What is more, Singers, the original inhabitants of Roshar, have the natural ability to link their power (just look at the summoning of the Everstorm) and in large number might potentially act like a saidar-specific Sa'angreal (I wonder if the whole Singer race could count as a Dawnshard different from the rest...)
  5. This is something I came up with at 3 am, so let me know if it gets too crazy Here it goes: We know that Ashyn doesn't currently have any Shard (WoB), but a question if there was ever a Shard there is considered a spoiler (WoB). Ashyn magic wasn't always disease-based (WoB), but used to similar to surgebinding (WoB). Given that Ashyn people used Dawnshards “known to bind any creature voidish or mortal” (Poem of Ista) to destroy their planet and were able to escape it using powers “of spren and Surges” (Eila Stele), it seems certain that there were spren (and therefore probably a Shard) there. Could that Shard be Odium? That seems very unlikely – it would mean that sometime during his Shard killing spree he decided to make a stop (next to a dishardic planet!), Invest there and give people weapons potentially able to harm him (Dawnshards). No, Odium would make a detour to Ashyn only if there was a real threat to him there that needed to be neutralized before taking care of Roshar. That leaves Cultivation and Honor, but as far as we know they've Invested in Roshar before the arrival of humans, so it's unlikely that any of them is responsible for Ashyn magic. My theory is that this Shard was a child of Cultivation and Honor – Unity. It was confirmed that Shards Vessels could have children (WoB) and that being a Shard affects pregnancy (WoB). I assume here that a Shardic child would be considered a Shard with a big asterisk (using terminology from this WoB on Patji), but would still count as two Shards together with their parents (Tanavast + Slammer + Unity = Honor + Cultivation). This way, we still have three Shards overall in the Rosharan system, even though the number of Vessels may not match. Unity would probably have a very atypical childhood (to say the least), so many human concepts (such as gender) could be foreign to them – and this attitude would be shared with their godspren, the Sibling (WoB). It's hard to say if Unity would have their own type of Investiture, but if they used Cultivationlight (WoB) instead, it would explain why we see so little of it compared to Stormlight. Finally, Unity would explain why we see two mixed (Cultivation + Honor) magic systems – Surgebinding was created directly by their Investment in Roshar and fabrials (part of the another magic system per this WoB) were originally developed on Ashyn by Unity and then brought to Roshar by humans. The latter is corroborated by the fact that humans left Ashyn using a type of Oathgate before there were any fabrials on Roshar at all (this WoB, though it's technically not canonized yet due to Spiritual Realm mechanics issues). At the beginning Unity would be underpowered as a Shard, but nothing stops them from travelling across Cosmere. gathering unclaimed Honor/Cultivation Investiture and growing stronger. This would also explain Unity's apparent effect on some of Cosmere's religions (Shu-Keseg concept of unity on Sel, “The One” worshipped by Iriali who later travel to Roshar). This sounds a lot like Autonomy, doesn't it? I think this might set up a future (post–Stormlight) conflict between both Shards, which can be seen as opposing forces. I also believe that at some point during their Cosmere journey, Unity recruited Dysian Aimians (whom we know to be worldhoppers present on many worlds: WoB here and here) as their agents, possibly because of their nature being an actual embodiment of Unity's intent. Anyway, Unity finally brings some humans to the Rosharan system, settles on Ashyn and Invests there, creating a fabrial–based magic system using Dawnshards (probably Unity's splinters, analogically to Honor and Honorblades). What are Dawnshards? I think they're tools for capturing, storing and transforming spren of any kind. The first two are kind of obvious, but what about transformation? We know that in many ways spren behave like wave–functions in quantum mechanics (flamespren study in one of interludes in The Way Of Kings). If so, we should theoretically see things like quantum superposition or Bose–Einstein condensates. In Cosmere terms, it would mean that spren could be merged with each other to create something new. Merging lesser spren associated with a given order of Knights Radiant is already believed by many to be the source of Shardplates. I believe that a similar process, merging of one or many inkspren and lighspren, leads to the creation of unique Oathgate spren (the same mechanism applies to other Surge fabrial spren as well). This could also explain the origin of the Unmade, who were “made, then unmade”. Not created or born. Made – created from other spren by Dawnshards, only to be later corrupted by Odium. For example, Yelig–nar might have originally been an attempt to create a spren able to form Nahel Bond giving all the surges (Rosharan version of lerasium, basically). Re–Shephir seems like a supercharged version of creationspren, Chemoarish – ashspren etc. We know that one Dawnshard is different from the rest (WoB) and that at least one of them is “known to bind any creature voidish or mortal” (Poem of Ista). I believe they're one and the same, and that binding a mortal creature means creating a Cognitive Shadow copy of a person, providing exactly the same form of immortality that the Heralds and the Fused would later use. What is more, this particular Dawnshard seems to be still active on Roshar. That's why Dalinar can be forgiven by Evi during the Battle of Thaylen Field and that's why his second vision of Nohadon is so strange – they are both Cognitive Shadows. The Tranquiline Halls myth in Vorinism is not just a tale of how people left Ashyn – it has additional hidden meaning. Some chosen people don't just go Beyond, they are given some sort of immortality to join the fight with Odium (or be useful to Unity in other ways). I think that's the reason Odium created Moelach. His power seems useless to Odium at first, but he can “seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body” (Diagram) and works “at the transition point between realms. When a soul was nearing the Tranquiline Halls” (Hessi's Mythica). He can prevent a person from being captured by a Dawnshard and extract information from them (something the Sleepless of Aimia are afraid in Kaza's interlude in Oathbringer). Moelach's purpose is to search for Dawnshards and interfere with their activity. It's hard to tell if Cognitive Shadows can be merged just as spren, but if they do, that might potentially explain the weird nature of Cusicesh the Protector with it's multitude of rapidly changing human faces. The special Dawnshard also provides an explanation for another question – how Unity could survive their fight with Odium. Before Ashyn was destroyed, Unity's followers (the Sleepless) escaped to Roshar with two Dawnshards. One of them, used for creating Surge fabrials, ended up in Aimia (WoB). The other one, storing a copy of Unity's mind, was hidden by Cultivation (we know that her magic can hide things from Odium – Lift hides from Odium in one of Dalinar's visions). Where such a thing could be stored? My best bet is the Origin of Storms. This place is clearly important, as indicated by Puuli's interlude and Wandersail story (also, Cusicesh always looks in that direction). If the Highstorm really originates there (or, more likely, simply recharges there), the place must be full of Investiture to power a device storing Cognitive Shadows of a Shard and a great number of people. Also, as Investiture resists Investiture, the Origin would be very hard to spy on by Odium's forces. As a result, Odium isn't aware that Unity is alive until the Thaylen Field (his future sight is useless here, as Cultivation and Unity are together equally good at it, or even better) and ends up screaming "No, we killed you. We killed you!". tl;dr version: Unity is the child of Cultivation of Honor and the original Shard on Ashyn. They created the first fabrial–based magic system utilizing Dawnshards that can (A) bind and merge spren into more powerful, unique spren (e.g. Surge fabrial spren) and (B) create Cognitive Shadow copies of people. Using the latter, a Cognitive Shadow of Unity survived the fight with Odium and was hiding with Cultivation's help, planning to strike Odium and finally revealing themselves during the Battle of Thaylen Field.
  6. The unmade clearly were once something different likely of honor or cultivation. My theory is that they were the dawnshards. My evidence is the abilities of one of the unmade an and the quote of one of the dawnshards. The quote from a poem that jasnah finds while researching in the palinaeum about the dawnshards states roughly it can bind any creature voidish or not. This sounds similar to the unmade that can bind the chosen and allow them to manipulate the surges. However it could just also be that the dawnshard is a reflection of the surge of connection uses by the bondsmith. Also the fact that there are nine unmade indicates that they originate in braize. This is my best guess.
  7. The unmade clearly were once something different likely of honor or cultivation. My theory is that they were the dawnshards. My evidence is the abilities of one of the unmade an and the quote of one of the dawnshards. The quote from a poem that jasnah finds while researching in the palinaeum about the dawnshards states roughly it can bind any creature voidish or not. This sounds similar to the unmade that can bind the chosen and allow them to manipulate the surges. However it could just also be that the dawnshard is a reflection of the surge of connection uses by the bondsmith. Also the fact that there are nine unmade indicates that they originate in braize. This is my best guess.
  8. THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR STORMLIGHT ARCHIVES, SILENCE DIVINE, AND ARCANUM UNBOUNDED. And I don't know how to make spoiler boxes. So, Ashyn. The first world from the sun in the Greater Rosharan system, with no [current] Shard and disease-based magic. And a novella (The Silnce Divine, which may be renamed) which will hopefully come out in the next five years or so. There are several theories and some (but not much) information about. Hopefully, this thread can be the base for that theorizing about, and a place to collect all those elusive WoBs. So first, the major facts: 1. It is the first planet from the sun in the Greater Rosharan System, with no known moons. Humans live there in upside-down, floating cities and farm the few fertile patches. 2. At some point in its history, it suffered a major cataclysm which destroyed most of the planet's surface- hence the few fertile patches. The reading Brandon did described the surface as burning, lines of red writhing across the surface. 3. It currently has no Shard, although Brandon RAFO'd a question on if it used to have a Shard. 4. The magic system is disease based. The diseases grant certain magical abilities, with prophecy and flight/floating being shown in the story. Second, the [major] theories: 1. The most prominent theory is that Ashyn is the basis for the Tranquiline Halls in Vorinism on Roshar, which, if true, indicates some contact between the two in the past. 2. Another theory suggests that Cultivation used to live on Ashyn before the cataclysm, and then went to Roshar. The problem with this is that there are people still on Ashyn, so why she would abandon them is unclear. 3. Yet another, not so important theory is that Ashyn is the Reya's Tear star seen from Roshar. Planets do look like especially bright stars if you don't know the difference, so it is possible. Actually, there is not much talk about Ashyn. Not much information either. Ah well.... My first theory: 1. Ashyn's magic system bears a resemblance to First of the Sun's magic system. Both use symbiosis to grant powers through natural means, unlike the various Shardworld system that we've seen. This indicates that First of the Sun's and Ashyn's magic systems may have been designed by Adonalsium, and therefore predate his Shattering. 2. The Vorin legends on Roshar indicate that Ashyn's cataclysm may have been caused by Odium (the Voidbringers kicked mankind out of the Tranquiline Halls). However, a passing mention of the danger of the diseases in the reading indicates that a disease-granted power may have been the cause. Any other information or theories? Please post it here! Here is the transcription: [Eelyell?] was awakened by the whispering of the dead child who followed him.“Haszh betaszh bejzak” The girl’s words were often gibberish, though usually he could make out a few of them. Tonight he couldn’t even understand a single one. Which made the whispering even more eerie.[Eelyell] sat up in his cot realizing he had fallen asleep in his uniform again. He looked across the darkened room, seeking out the child. There, she hid in the shadows beside the wooden bin that held his canes. Small, maybe four years old, she had long straight blonde hair that hung down by her face, ears peeking out like rocks in the sand.She met his eyes, “Haszh betazh bejzak,” she whispered. It would be nice when that particular Echo passed.[Eelyell] rose tugging at his crumpled jacket, still enough of a soldier to feel ashamed at its state. His father would have had [Eelyell]]’s head if he’d seen such a uniform. Climbing from bed [Eelyell] took the cane beside it for support, then walked out onto the balcony. He put his back to the dead child, she was a figment, an echo, a side-effect from an Incubation he’d done a few years back. It was so long ago that he was losing hope that this Echo would ever fade. He might be stuck with a hallucination, for good.He stepped out onto the balcony, using the cane by habit though he was currently strong enough that he didn’t need it to walk. He was recovering from his Incubation two months back. The grind from that one had finally worn off. In fact he was probably too strong, he’d been getting too much sleep lately, eating too well. He needed to keep a certain level of physical weakness so he could be open to Incubations, assuming he wanted to remain effective in his duties. And he did want to remain effective, for his own reasons, if not for the Corps themselves.Outside on the balcony, the sky burned. It smoldered high above, deep red lines, the color of a serpent’s tongue, like rips in the air. The magma cast a warm red light across the city of [suigmaat]. As always the air smelled faintly of smoke, though he only noticed it when he was first stepping out of the building into the open air. He knew logically that the burning place he saw above was actually the ground. He knew [suigmaat] flew in the air, a city reversed, one of the few bastions of life left in the burning land. [Eelyell] was the one who was upside-down, as were all of the city’s inhabitants. It didn’t feel that way to him, he’d lived here too long. Upward was towards the burning ground and the land, downwards was toward the sky and the sun. Things he never saw except on the rare occasion he was called upon to visit the farms and orchards on the city’s sunward side.[Eelyell] stood for a time, holding to the cast-iron railing, staring up at the burning swathes high above. Molten rivers, a land destroyed. A warning flag, raised to them all. Omnipresent. Undeniable. The city itself slept beneath that scarlet glare, bathed in red.“Hiszh betaszh druk,” the girl whispered from behind. She’d crawled out onto the balcony and now sat there looking up at the air.[Eelyell] glanced at her, “Kareem’s gaze you’re a creepy one,” he whispered, “What must I do to be rid of you?”“Hiszh beaszh diruk.”He tapped his finger on the railing and then strode back into his quarters, splashed some water on his face, and checked the sword blade of his walking cane. Seconds later he was out the door.The offices of the Corps did not look as a police station should. A police station was supposed to be a box like thing, stable and functional, designed to indicate to all who visited that this was not a place where nonsense was permitted. Those ornamented columns, etched with the silver serpents of [Mokdeelor], those golden doors, those soldiers with ridiculous feathered helms. Those were not the symbols of efficient law-keeping. In [Eelyell]’s opinion they were quite the opposite.He walked up the steps and approached the guards, who were at least armed with functional halberds and two foot-long pistols at the belt. They saluted him by raising fists to their sides. As an incubator he outranked everyone in this building, except of course the ones who actually mattered. [Eelyell] felt a moment of lightheadedness at the top of the steps and was forced to pause there, gripping the railing and leaning on his cane. So he wasn’t completely well, good. Neither guard stepped to help him, weakness was expected of Incubators, one of the marks of their station and being near one of them at the wrong time could be dangerous. One need only to look upward at the burning land to be reminded of just how dangerous.When his head cleared, he continued up the steps, cane clicking, and passed the men without returning their salute. He stopped just inside the building however, coming alert. Motion. Lesser watchmen calling to one another in a large room, aides carrying stacks of paper. Red eyes and yawns accompanied both groups. Many of these people had been called up unexpectedly, despite the very early hour.“[Eelyell]?” A woman rushed up to him through the bustle. [Cual] wore the yellow and blue uniform of an Incubator, like his own but better fitting and far better cut. “You look like ash man,” she said, “Aren’t you still on grind leave?”[Eelyell] looked back at the hall, reading the motion of the bodies. Nobody was going to the weapon’s locker, though riot gear had been set out to the side. Large metal shields and larger swords cordoned in rubber from trees that grew on the sunward side. The people here were getting ready for something, but he didn’t know what yet. A prophecy, he guessed.“I still can’t believe they called you up,” [Cual] said, “You deserve some relaxation after--”“I will visit [Patseepa],” [Eelyell] interupted, striding through the room and leaving [Cual] behind. He tried not to let himself be carried away in the chaos. The event that he was waiting for would come eventually, but this might not be it. [Patseepa] made prophesies with some frequency, that was why the Corps maintained her, and why she carried her terrible burden.It was difficult not to feel tense however, in the rooms frenzy. Nearby a scribe turned and accidentally knocked over an hourglass, smashing it to the floor and spraying sand across it. He spared the sand a glance, it always drew his attention, but he otherwise ignored it, focussing on a set of doors at the back of the room. This must have been an alarming prophecy in deed to cause such a fuss. The guards at these doors were even more flowery with feathers on their shields after an old fashion style almost no one used any longer. The [Moknee] people were now as advanced a people as [Eelyell] had ever known. His own browning-tan skin and dark hair blended in here well enough that he could have passed more [Moknee] himself, assuming he didn’t open his mouth. Which he was never good at doing.These guards let him pass too and no scribes or watchmen beset him in the hall beyond. Only Incubators were allowed in here. Unfortunately while they presented a more solemn group, it was no less unruly in its own right. Some two dozen of them clumped together at the other end of the darkened hallway like a clot of hair in a drain. [Eelyell] strode forward passing doors on either side set with glass. The small, well-lit rooms beyond weren’t exactly cells, just like their occupants weren’t exactly prisoners, they just couldn’t leave. With the hallways dark and the rooms lit, each window glowed, like they looked into other worlds. Other worlds inhabited by the sick.It was hard to think of it that way, after so long in this land. The people in those rooms were not simply ill, they were lay Incubators, their job was to stay in those little rooms, bearing their afflictions until they started to recover. Whereupon another individual would be brought in to catch their malady, ensuring the Incubation itself didn’t vanish. It was good money, assuming you didn’t mind the discomfort, which could range from the sniffles to deadly fevers, depending on the Incubation you agreed to receive. And of course there were... other benefits. In one room he passed the occupant, a young man, hovered in the air, reading a book and in another an elderly woman idly tapped on a cup, changing the color of the liquid inside with each tap. In [suigmaat], in fact on this entire land, every disease also granted a special capacity. That ability lasted as long as the ailment did. Many of these blessings were minor, while others were grand. Some few were very, very dangerous. Hence the existence of the Incubators, and of the Corps itself. In-depth look at the reading: The mention of pistols, and the whole floating-city thing, indicates that they may possess some amount of technological advances. However, they are still using swords, helms, and metal shields, so this may be magic-based in nature. It does mention glass doors and rubber, which are fairly recent advancements. There are only "a few bastions of civilization left", so there are probably not that many floating cities. Also, the food supply probably severely limits population growth. The city "suigmaat" (spelling may be wrong) is one of these, and is home to the Moknee people. The feather decorations and black hair/browning-tan skin may indicate a Native American-esque influence. The other cities possibly possess different cultures and levels of technology. Sunward side: Indicates that the planet may not be rotating around an axis. May or may not pre-date or have been caused by the global cataclysm.
  9. In the exerpt of The Silence Divine that Brandon read from a while back, we learn that Ashyn has magic that involves a person getting infected with a disease, and that disease grants them powers as long as it is active in their system. We also have a WoB saying that in some cases, those diseases cause a flaw. This sounds suspiciously like the Nightwatcher's Boon/Curse mechanic. Since Ashyn is in the same solar system as Roshar, even though it doesn't have a Shard directly dwelling there, I propose that the magical influence of Honor and Cultivation dwelling on Roshar is nonetheless enough to have Ashyn follow many of the same concepts as Rosharan magic. 1. Brandon has said that the magic on Ashyn is the same basic principles, with the system being a little different. This theory would fit with that statement. 2. Bonds: On Roshar, people attain magic by forming a bond with a spren. On Ashyn, I theorize that they attain magic by forming a similar, weaker bond with bacteria or viruses. This bond allows them to use some version of the surges, perhaps in more limited ways. Then, once their immune system kills the infection, the bond breaks, and they need to reform it. In the reading, we see a woman changing a goblet of liquid into other types of liquid (Soulcasting/Transformation?) and others are able to float/fly (Gravitation?) or see the future (perhaps Odium's influence/Moelach?) 3. Boon/curse: On Roshar, people can go to the Nightwatcher and receive a boon and a curse. From the WoB above, at least some of the powers on Ashyn work the same way. You get the power to float a city, but you go deaf while having that power. 4. Echoes: (Wild speculation) I also theorize that the Echoes are from the accumulation of the dead bacteria's spiritwebs. We've never seen what happens if a spren permanently dies while being bonded to a Radiant. Since it seems likely that the Radiant and spren's spiritwebs are partially merged (more and more) as the bond grows, I'm thinking that if the spren dies, a piece of their spiritweb would be left in the Radiant. If this is the case, then the bacteria or viruses that are dying while bonded to the Corpsperson might be leaving behind tiny spiritwebs of their own. With enough time, that accumulation could cause the Echoes that they experience. Thoughts?
  10. We know that humans from the Rosharan system came to Roshar from Ashyn. When they did so, they brought odium with them. They also brought surgebinding, as mentioned in the Aila Stele. But radiants and surgebinders as we saw them are a result of bonding spren of honour and cultivation, where the fused utilise voidbinding by bonding with spren of odium. So basically, would it not make sense that surgebinders on Ashyn were more like the fused in that they use voidlight and voidbinding as granted them by odium? This would then discount concerns about radiants destroying roshar because it's surgebinding granted by powers not prone to deatruction as odium is. I welcome any input.
  11. I was reading something in another thread about how unsealed gold metalminds would be very popular on Threnody, and I started thinking about how they would work on Ashyn. From what we know you have to get sick in order to have magic. It seems to me that an unsealed gold metalmind would come in very handy for those who want to get sick quickly. And it would be handy to have around when you are ready to be healthy again as well, since you've already stored your health.
  12. Hey team, I apologise in advance if this post isn't particularly well laid out - I have little time at the moment and a thought just struck me so I wanted to get it down before I forget about it, and I don't know if this has been discussed before or already theorized (I had a quick look and couldn't find a mention of it). I agree with @Calderis that there are three specific magic systems that operate in three different ways. I also agree that the fused have not been Voidbinding currently. Essentially the theory is that how magic on Roshar works is that: A) Surgebinding is the system of magic through which the fundamental forces of nature are manipulated through the filter of Honor and Cultivation Fabrials is the system of magic through which these forces of nature can be trapped, stored and then used (this one I am less confident about and would be interested C) Voidbinding is the system of magic through which the fundamental forces of nature are manipulated through the filter of odium. This, especially the Voidbinding postulation, I base on the WOB below. Linked to this, if we consider that Voidbinding is the accessing of the fundamental laws of creation and forces (as per the quote) through Odium, then because humans were originally of odium, and we know that they destroyed their previous home, I believe that humans used Voidbinding to destroy Ashyn. This fundamentally would suggest that humans were the original Voidbinders. This would also tie in nicely to them being the Voidbringers. So to conclude quickly: Voidbinding is the accessing of the forces of creation through the filter of odium and humans were the original voidbinders who used voidbinding to destroy Ashyn.
  13. I’m not confident enough in this to call it a theory, but I do think there is some significant support for the idea I just had. The Vorins consider the Old Magic and Nightwatcher to be synonymous and blasphemous. Since we know the humans on Roshar originated elsewhere (Ashyn), I believe the Old Magic actually refers to the magic of Ashyn. Since that magic (boon) is granted by sickness (curse), it makes sense that the Nightwatcher’s activities would come to be associated with that, particularly after enough time had passed for the Rosharan humans had forgotten their other worldly origins, but would still have vague myths and legends about how the Old Magic operated and it matched up with the Nightwatchers boon/curse game. Now if this is true, it MIGHT imply that ALL magic from Roshar is surgebinding, all magic from Braize is voidbinding, and all magic from Ashyn is the Old other words, the shardic source of the investiture doesn’t determine the magic, the planet of origin does.
  14. Hello and welcome, I don't post theories or interpretations very often but this is one that I wanted to get off my chest. Ashyn isn't the Tranquiline Halls, Roshar is. Now, very quickly, I want to make sure that I am not misinterpreted: I am not claiming that humans did not come from Ashyn, the vast majority of humans on Roshar are descended from Ashynites that fled their self-caused cataclysm. What I am claiming is that the Vorin mythology of humanities fight for the Tranquiline Halls is originally a singer tale, co-opted by humanity and twisted into their own theology. So, I just want to establish the mixing of cultures that has occurred between humans and singers on Roshar. I only have 2 (Maybe 2.5) examples of this. I wish I had more but I feel we don't know enough about old singer culture to say what came from them other than what we have been told directly. 1. Human use of the term Voidbringers This ones an easy one, Eila Stele shows that singers were the first to refer to humanity as Voidbringers during the first Desolation. We actually also have a little of the opposite happening, with Listener songs describing humanity in a very similar way to the way Midnight Essence are described. Eshonai mentions this in the prologue: 2. Humans took the singer names From Leshwi and Moash's conversation: So what we see here is humanity on Roshar seems to have adopted some of singer culture, intentionally or not. The Tranquiline Halls So, the tale of the Tranquiline Halls has the following as it's main points of belief: Humanity is not native to Roshar Humanity was forced out of their old home by an invading force of Voidbringers When a human dies, their soul sticks around, they are given super powers and get sent to fight for the Tranquiline Halls The Heralds are leading the fight Now, points 1 and 4 we can trace in human culture. We know humans are not native to Roshar, we see Jezrien telling the people this lie in Oathbringer: But where do points 2 and 3 come from in Vorinism? What are the origins of these parts of their belief? Humans weren't pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers. Humans don't die, get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers. But you know who does? Singers were pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers. When singers die, they do get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers. Humanity took the singers world, their god, their names and even their religions. In Vorin myth, Ashyn would be the Tranquiline Halls. In reality, it's Roshar. Thank you for reading.
  15. Keepers on Ashyn would be incredibly powerful. So we know that on ashyn, magic is disease based. The example Brandon gave is that while you have the common cold, you can fly. Now who do we know that can control when they are sick? I think it can generally be agreed upon that for most metals, tapping is better than storing, right? You would rather be fast than slow, healthy than sick, quick of thought than slow, and so on. Unless you are on Ashyn that is. What we know of Ashton is that it is incredibly hot, you get powers from being sick, and people live in the sky. If I were a Feruchemist, I would gladly spend a year or two absolutely miserable in exchange for immortality and an incredibly wealthy and comfortable life. Allow me to explain. So our keeper heads to ashyn, with plenty of extra metalminds of all of the different metals, he finds a nice place to stay, perhaps someone to help take care of him, and he spends the next year or so absolutely miserable. He stores everything. Being in a floating city, its better to weigh less, he needs to store heat, storing senses to keep him from suffering, but most importantly, strength age and health. He needs to be as frail as physically possible. The idea is to get as sick as possible, and store all of those newly gained powers in unkeyed nicrosilminds. So you can see where this is going, he lies in bed for a year and fills all of his metalminds as well as collected tons of powers in his nicrosilminds. Even though he is intentionally close to death this whole time, he is never in danger as if he ever needs it, he can just stop storing and tap a little health to completely recover. Now our keeper, after all this time pumping stuff into his metalminds, can sell his unkeyed nicrosilminds filled with powers, which are vastly more efficient than when normal people get them. For example, if someone has a cold for 3 days, they have the ability to fly for 72 hours, which is being wasted whenever they aren't flying. After 72 hours, the power is gone and the whole time you had it, you were sick. When you use a nicrosilmind though, you can fly for 72 hours, and whenever you aren't flying, you just stop tapping. Say you fly for one hour a day, you fly for 3 days with the cold, so 3 hours. However if you fly with the nicrosilmind, you can fly for 72 hours or 72 days. Far more efficient. So back to our keeper, everyone on this planet can use these powers with the right sickness requirements, so as cool as it is, its nothing special. However... Over on Nalthis, nobody has ever had these powers that you can offer them, and everybody is born with something to offer to you. I bet you could get breaths incredibly easy if you talk to wealthy people with lots of breaths and offer them new magical powers with incredible length of use, remember that our keeper spent a year, or as long as he wants, collecting these powers as well as his own feruchemical powers. Assuming he sells everything he has been collecting in exchange for a massive wealth of breaths, he could gain immortality, awakening, and live a comfortable, powerful, and wealthy life wherever he wants. If he chooses to go back to ashyn and stores a few more powers, he can basically use whatever powers he wants wherever and whenever he wants, on top of his breaths and Feruchemy. Slightly overpowered and awesome if you ask me. I doubt it would happen in Canon, but I would love to see it so much. Tell me what you guys think.
  16. In WoK Kasbal brings up cymatic patterns to try to bring Jasnah to the conclusion that she should join Vorinisim. That got my father and I thinking, and if sand on a plate could vibrate and create patterns, then why wouldn't stone and rubble on an iron core be affected as well? We didn't know why the patterns were on the ground but, The cities would need to vibrate immensely to move mountains into patterns. This would destroy the cities too, and so, the cities couldn't be on the ground. On Ashyn, most people live on huge floating cities because of the great catalyst that forced humans to Roshar. Sadly at the moment, we don't know what runs these ships, but we can assume they vibrated. And thus cymatics come into play. The patterns around certain cities said to be made by the Almighty could be made by the different floating cities. But these cities were also said to be made by... The Almighty. Supposedly, using the Cognitive realm, a few floating cities could slip from Ashyn to Roshar and land, thus bringing the peoples of Ashyn to the planet of Roshar. Kolinar's Windblades, and Sesemalex Dar's patterns could be the results of the floating cities. Urithiru may be an intact floating city, as it looks like a space ship but it may not be. Post comments and thoughts below.
  17. Hello everyone. While talking with some other people recently, I hit on an idea that I think explains humanity's success in their first attack against the Singers. To set the stage, humanity at this point is living in Shinovar, does not have Surgebinding, and is probably less populous than the Singers. How is humanity so successful then, that the Singers feel the need to ally with Odium and create the Fused to fight back? Where does this power that allowed the initial conflicts go? I believe that the answer to both questions is that humanity still had access to Surges... from the diseases of Ashyn. 1) Ashyn's Investiture accesses Surges, and is disease based. This point is the keystone of the whole theory, so first let's look at some WoBs. This WoB vaguely details the mechanics of Ashyn's Investiture. Ashyn's powers are accessed when you grow ill, and they go away when you get better. Additionally we have this WoB. These two things together imply that catching a disease let you access the Surges, in slightly different forms than Radiants currently can. I think we can make a safe assumption that anyone with these diseases is going to be capable of similar feats to those we've see from our Radiants. This brings us to point number two. 2) The Surges allowed humanity the ability to expand aggressively So when humanity arrived on Roshar from Ashyn, they might have had some of these diseases among their population. Humans stayed in Shinovar long enough for some sembalance of peace to exist between Singer and human. However, at some point humanity aggressively expanded, to the point that every major Singer city was captured. Every Dawncity is likely a former Singer capital. How did humanity do this? The Elia Steele gives us a hint: So humanity was using Surges. The problem with this is that the nahel bond could not have existed at this point. The nahel bond mimics the Honorblades, and the Honorblades did not come into existence until the Fused came into existence, which had to have been after this initial aggressive expansion. So how was humanity using the Surges? The diseases of Ashyn. Where did these diseases go, then? Well... 3) The extra Investiture from repeated exposure to Stormlight made humanity too disease resistant Humans expanded aggressively, and then settled in Singer territories, probably very confident in their ability to hold on to their gains. Of course we know that they didn't, so what changed? Humans began to become Invested by the background Investiture of the storms. Every so often, humanity gets bombarded by large amounts of free floating Investiture. Unlike any native life form on Roshar, it has no way to express itself, so in the case of humans it just makes humanity as a whole healthier, and more resistant to disease. This WoB seems to back up this theory: So humanity becomes more disease resistant, the Ashyn diseases start dying off. This leads us to the Second Desolation. Somehow, the Singer have recovered their numbers, and in addition have made a bargain with Odium to create the Fused, the Regals, and access Surges. This puts humanity on the defensive, and requires the Oathpact and eventually the Radiants to give humanity relatively even footing. Conclusion: I think I've made a pretty good argument for the timeline of the first two conflicts between humanity and the Singers. I've left out any mention of Urithuru, because I don't know how it fits in yet. I am also not really sure how the Girl Who Looked Up fits in, unless she somehow allowed stormlight to inundate the Shinovar region like it does the rest of the world. Anyway, would like to hear people's thoughts.
  18. Okay, so I did search through the forum to see if anyone had made this topic and I didn't see any post like this so hopefully there's no problem with this. So within Oathbringer, we find out that humans are the original Voidbringers, yeah? And its part of Vorin belief that the Voidbringers kicked the humans out of the Tranquiline Halls. So basing this on the concept that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn (I'm not sure if this is canon fact, or merely speculation?), but that would mean that Ashyn was the Tranquiline Halls - and this makes even more sense with the confirmation that Braize is Damnation.
  19. So we got confirmation that humans came to Roshar because of a major disaster on their "original" world and that the big secret was that they had destroyed their own planet with surgebinding. This is interesting and has many implications, it will probably take a while to shift through all of them (the book has been out for like 2 days at the time of writing this post haha) but I would like to discuss two theories I had just considering the basics within the context of the Cosmere as we know it. 1. The "Tranquiline Halls" is Ashyn So with the confirmation in text that humans are not native to Roshar, something that has been more or less confirmed through various WoBs over the years so isn't groundbreaking news, we start to wonder where they came from. We know that they arrived as refugees fleeing the devastation of their original home, so the initial group must have come from the same world. I posit that that world is Ashyn, the planet right next to Roshar that we know is a blasted wasteland save a few pockets where humans survive. And that it got that way because as Khriss mentions in her essay on Greater Roshar in AU: it "suffered a cataclysm long ago". It makes logistical sense, a massive number of refuges that would be produced by a global disaster would most likely want to settle in the place that was both safe and as close as possible to limit how long they were displaced. Even with the distance warping of the Cognitive why trek halfway across the galaxy with probably nothing but the clothes on your back when you can find shelter the next planet over? Then there is this Death Rattle from WoK that most people have, again, guessed for years refers in someway to the humans initially displacing the native Parsh: The last sentence is of specific import in this case. The place that is "hollow and forlorn" might refer the Braize, where the cognitive shadows of the genocided Dawnsingers that would later become the Fused were locked up. But the part where the speaker (presumably a human "Voidbringer") claiming that they themselves once burned is probably a reference to the disaster that destroyed their homeworld. And guess what? Back in that essay in Arcanum Unbound Khriss names Ashlyn "the burning planet". Other possibilities for the identity of the Tranquiline Halls would be either 1) Yolen or 2) a yet unnamed planet. I find Yolen unlikely because the chronology seems to indicate a big time lapse before whatever happened to Yolen (assuming it happened in close proximity to the Shattering and the Birth of the 16) and the human refugees showing up with Odium as their god. For one we know he was off chasing Ambition in the space around Therody, and also took time to go murder the Selish shards. Assuming the conflict between Odium and Honor started soon after his arrival in Roshar and hasn't abated since he would have taken an unbelievably short time to accomplish his prior goals. Not to mention that whatever happened to Yolen had nothing to do with surgebinding, but that is not that big of a deal breaker as I will explain shortly. As for a yet unknown world? Well I can't find evidence for or against something we don't know exists now can I? So we should really have someone ask Brandon if the Tranquiline Halls are a world we already know about during the OB tour. 2. The Tranquilline Halls were destroyed, but probably not by surgebinding as we know it So this being the big secret behind the Recreance confused me. I understand how the characters in universe might come to this conclusion but it makes little sense for the Cosmerically aware. Obviously something big *did* happen to the homeland of the humans to make them refugees and this being the Cosmere that thing most likely related to usage of Investiture. But we know that, while a magic user can use their magic anywhere given the right resources, initiation into a magic system requires Connection to a certain Shard and/or a certain planet. As surgebinding as we understand it is a system created by bonding a spren of Honor/Cultivation that has learned to mimic the blades Honor forged from his own soul to give the heralds. And he gave those blades to the heralds to enforce the oathpact. So as we know that H+C came to Roshar before Odium and now know that Odium came with the human refugees. It seems incongruous to believe that surgebinders in the mold of the KR existed and destroyed the Tranquiline Halls BEFORE the humans came to Roshar with Odium, who started a fight with Honor, who then forged an Oathpact with 10 humans, which splinters of H+C's power then copied to create surgebinders. Furthermore in WoR Honor in the visions tells Dalinar he "didn't foresee the coming of the Knights" and confirms Syl's comments about the spren mimicking the Honorblades to produce the surges. But if surgebinders already existed and were the reason the Tranquiline Halls were destroyed, why would the coming of surgbinders surprise Honor? But what if surgebinding existed in a different form and Honor was just surprised to see the spren recreate it? Well then I maintain that you can't assume spren-based surgbinding will have the same result (planetary devastation) as whatever was used back home. Its like Hoid's Lightweaving vrs. Shallan's. Even if the effects are similar or even identical, the mechanics are markedly different. And we haven't considered the Dawnshards which in OB Honor claimed destroyed the Tranquilline Halls as he was in his death throes. So whatever wrecked the homeland of Roshar's humans was not surgbinding (again at least not as we know it) and so the truth behind the Recrence seems to be a tragic misunderstanding by the people involved possibly conflating two different magic systems from two different planets, probably.
  20. Is there a WoB or WoP anywhere saying what the people on Ashyn call Roshar (the planet) or Roshar (the system)? I searched Ashyn in Arcanum but couldn't find anything.
  21. A transcription of the reading of Silence Divine. Silence Divine takes place on the planet Ashyn, which is in the Greater Rosharan system. Please note that this story is Unpublished, and therefor non-canon at this time. An OB spoiler: Some discussion of it in this thread here:
  22. [Originally posted on r/stormlightarchive, and figured that I'd bring it over here. The more I think about it, the more interested I am in Shinovar. I think they've got some serious secrets. A poster pointed out a WoB that confirms Rosharan humans originated on Ashyn] Another random observation that's probably been noticed, but I haven't seen on here. (That kinda spiraled into a general post about the Shin) The going theory at the moment is that Humans in the Roshar system originated on Ashyn - WoB states that there was a cataclysm there, with small pockets of civilisation living in cloud cities as a result. Hence, the idea that humans caused said cataclysm and jumped ship to Roshar (planet) with their advanced tech/powers. We know that when humans first arrived on Roshar, they were given the Shin lands in the West because it was most like their natural habitat and they could raise horses, chickens etc. I just noted that the word Shin is very similar to the back end of Ashyn. If humans were introducing themselves on another planet, they would likely introduce themselves as the 'Ashyn' people. Over millennia, that would boil down to Shin. This also ties back to the Shin culture and the amount of control they (likely) secretly hold over the cosmic Shard war raging in the background, implying that their histories passed down hold a lot more accurate knowledge that the rest of Roshar had available. The aversion to walking on stone has been noted previously as a possible link to the fact that the Dawnsingers owned the rocky portions of the continent, and might actually have developed as a belief due to the guilt surrounding the original voidbringers' actions. Another interesting point is the circumstances of Szeth's Truthless stamp. He claimed that the voidbringers were returning. If the Shin hold a better history than the rest of humanity, then Szeth's original claim might be interpreted oddly. If he was referring to the 'modern' voidbringers (the Fused), then his story plays out unchanged - he saw a crisis coming and was ignored. Now, if we look at the ancient use of the word voidbringer, then he may have been referring directly to Radiants or any forms of power. I'm having trouble putting this one together in my head, because I might have been missing some nuances in Szeth's lines. He flips out when there's a possibility of Kal being Radiant, as this would confirm his suspicion of the return of voidbringers. Without the revelations of Oathbringer, this was read as Radiants returning providing indirect proof that modern voidbringers were going to be stomping about soon. Going by the ancient definition, he may have predicted the return of ancient voidbringers with Kaladin as direct proof of their return. All of this has to go through a few layers of culture and Shin development. If the Ashyn histories were preserved to the point that knowledge of the first desolation remains, then we would have to wonder how pervasive this knowledge would be. The way that Sanderson writes religion, I would assume that the general populace is completely unaware of this information and holds to their devout beliefs as a matter of culture. In this scenario, the higher up members of Shin culture (the council who exiled Szeth) would have more context to their religion - possibly holding knowledge from before the move to Roshar, but more likely having gaps in their knowledge due to the sheer time passed since then (and repeat Desolations). I can't speculate on whether Szeth would have been privy to this information, but don't recall any great surprise when Nale drops the voidbringer revelation on him. Szeth just doesn't seem to react to much with surprise though. In terms of how Szeth gained his knowledge in the first place without leaving Shinovar - I think that comes down to his training with the Honorblades. Discounting the possibility of seeing the future (just because Odium influencing him here seems a little off to me) multiple Radiant orders have experienced visions of the present day (scrying?). Kaladin's storm riding visions showed him Ash scratching eyes. Shallan had an instance where she accidentally drew the sailors washing up on a shore, but in Oathbringer she did another drawing that seemed to confirm this ability (can't remember exactly when - maybe while she was still in Urithiru?). These seem like Order-specific perks that we don't know transfer with Honorblades. Another option is that Szeth did something unusual regarding the Honorblades and gained knowledge that way, something along the lines of wielding multiple blades at once during his training. Questions that would help guide this thinking: 1. How open is the Shin religion among its members with its information/history? Does even the lowest warrior know as much as the highest councilmember? 2. Does every Shin train with the Honorblades, just the warriors, or a select subset of warriors? 3. Have the Shin been known to use parshmen slaves? I don't recall any being mentioned in Vstim's trade in WoK, but Rysn was focused on the warriors being dressed so poorly. TL;DR - The Shin know things, man, and they're not sharing. And Ashyn=Shin over time. Edit: A quote from Szeth's interlude in WoR (I-10) - This is immediately post his first clash with Kaladin, and he is standing atop Urithiru contemplating the fact that his Truthless status might be in error: "He had fought an impossibility. A man with Stormlight, a man who knew the storm within. That meant... problems. Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm, it had been said. The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him. The spirits of the stones themselves promised it. The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains. All that remains... Truthless." Later, on contemplating his inefficiency with Stormlight: "Too imperfect a body. The Knights Radiant... they'd been said... they'd been said to be better at this... like the Voidbringers." Time to re-read Nale's discussion with him over the Battle of Thaylenar. (To be continued!) Edit 2: Nale/Nin/aboshi fills Szeth in on the Voidbringer revelation off-screen. When we return to them, they hover over the battlefield observing Amaram's forces go Thrilltastic. (Ch 116, Alone) (beginning of the Sanderson Avalanche): {Throughout this passage, there are no emotional qualifiers used to describe Szeth's speech. It reads as a purely logical discussion of lawyers deciding which code is relevant based on the parshmen being the original owners of the land.} "All along," Szeth said, "this world belonged to the parshmen. My people watched not for the return of an invading enemy, but for the masters of the house." (I read that as a surprised statement, but it is difficult to draw conclusions) {Jumping ahead, Nale asks Szeth to join him in backing the singers. Szeth's inner monologue is as follows:} "Wind rippled Szeth's clothing. All those years ago, he'd been correct. The Voidbringers had returned. Now... now he was to simple accept their rule?" Later in the fighting, Szeth continues to refer to Fused combatants as Voidbringers. I think I've pulled apart a bit of my theory a little too well. I've placed myself in the camp that Szeth was unaware of the revelations of the First Desolation prior to being informed by Nale. This still leaves the question of how much the religious leaders of Shinovar (the Shamanate) know/knew prior to the Battle of Thaylenar. Regardless, the implications of having a culture on Shinovar with very direct/lasting Ashyn influences is very interesting. I'm going to have to go through and look closely at references to the Shin so far.
  23. So now we have confirmation that humans came to Roshar from somewhere else. People have theorized before that humanity might have come to Roshar from Ashyn, and I believe more than ever that this is the case. Firstly....from what little we know of Ashyn via WoBs and his readings from it, that world suffered some form of cataclysm in the past, stemming from the disease based magic people used there. However, just because humans on Roshar arrived there after a great cataclysm on their original world, that doesn't mean that ALL the humans from their original world left it. Some might have remained behind, and that, I posit, are the people in the scattered cities that make up the remnant of civilization on Ashyn. Secondly, we know that humans, as the original Voidbringers, were responsible for the destruction of their original world and the Recreance and Nale's later actions resulted from a fear that Surgebinders, unchecked, would do the same to Roshar. However, this does not inherently mean that Surgebinding was responsible for the destruction of the first world. Indeed, we have this line from Chapter 113: The way this is phrased makes me feel that Honor was not saying that Surgebinders would destroy their world again, but rather that Surgebinders would do to Roshar what the humans of the Tranquiline Halls did to their world with the magic system of that world. We know that magic systems are born of the interaction between a Shard's Investiture and the planet they're on, and while they have some control over how their magic system works or is shaped, there are some things they can't control. Due to the greater presence of Adonalsium's Investiture on Roshar in the form of spren, Honor and Cultivation, upon arriving and Investing in Roshar, found spren the channel through which their Investiture and magic was shaped. But on their previous planet, whether that was Ashyn or somewhere else, their Investiture might have resulted in a very different magic system (or more than one). We know that the magic on Ashyn takes the form of diseases (or more accurately) bacteria, that when infecting a human host also grants that human some form of magic ability for as long as they remain infected. Some of these abilities are innocuous, some moderately useful, and others catastrophically destructive. However all of them, regardless of the end result of the ability, play into the same underlying nature: gain comes at cost. Power paired with weakness. And where else have we seen such an underlying nature? With the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, rumored to be associated with both Cultivation and the Old Magic. Petitioners seek out the Nightwatcher to ask a boon, a favor, something that can be used to better themselves or their situation or act as some form of power or ability....but such a thing comes at a cost, as they are stricken with a curse as well, something that takes something from them or impairs them in some way. Not unlike a disease. In fact, consider that the boons and curses bestowed by the Nightwatcher all seem to be neurological in some way, from what we've seen so far...and bacteria and diseases can certainly affect neurology. On Ashyn, it's not just that diseases grant magic, from what little we've seen of it in Brandon's readings. From what we've seen, the civilization on Ashyn actively CULTIVATES these diseases, employing people as human incubators to keep certain strains of bacteria around and viable should they ever have need of the ability bestowed by that disease. My theory is that the disease magic of Ashyn was Cultivation's original magic system, the form her Investiture took when interacting with Ashyn, and some Splinter of her still remains behind on Ashyn even if no Perpendicularity does, and fuels what's left of Ashyn's magic. When she moved to Roshar with the humans who fled from it, her Investiture took a new form, as did Honor's, and created a new magic, Surgebinding. However, perhaps some remnants of her original magic came with her and is evident in the Nightwatcher, or perhaps some magic practitioners from Ashyn carried some lingering strains with them when they came....and this is the Old Magic, echoes or pieces of Cultivation's first magic system, which exists separate from Surgebinding but can still manipulate biology (and neurology) in some small ways, even stranded from Ashyn, the planet that birthed this magic via its interaction with Cultivation's Investiture. While the epigraphs in Oathbreaker seem to imply at least one Shard (most likely Autonomy) claims "many lands" and as such, possibly is Invested in multiple worlds and magic systems, we have no real idea yet of what that might mean, or how different magic systems born of a Shard's Investiture might look given the key role a Shardworld plays in shaping these magic systems. My theory is that it's less important to look at the trappings of various magic systems, the mechanisms or the fuel sources, and look at the Intent underneath for any commonalities. If I'm correct, and Ashyn's disease magic is born of Cultivation, same as the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, and half of Surgebinding, the unifying commonality in all of Cultivation's magic is that to gain something, you must give something. That reward comes at cost. Even at its most base definition, cultivation by its nature is progress resulting from labor, effort and time. Nothing is cultivated for free, or even cheaply. The more you put into trying to cultivate something, the greater your gains. By extrapolating this union between Intent and magic, the greater the power resulting from a disease on Ashyn, the more deadly the disease or more horrific or taxing the symptoms are likely to be. The greater the boon, or gift, or request made of the Nightwatcher, the more debilitating or impairing the curse granted alongside it. And with Surgebinding, the greater the skill and power wielded by a Surgebinder, the more effort, honor, sacrifice the Surgebinder has to put into Cultivating their bond with a spren. The most powerful abilities are unlocked only at the recitation and understanding of the highest Ideals, which as we've seen, do not come cheaply to Surgebinders. To wield Surgebinding at its most powerful levels, a Knight Radiant must all but give him or herself fully over to the bond with their spren and their service to certain ideals. To gain you must give. The more you give, the more you gain. Something too that I've noted, is that Cultivation's magic (via this interpretation) is not aimed at being most beneficial to an individual, but rather to a civilization or society as a whole. With the disease magic on Ashyn, the civilization we saw is structured around employing people as incubators to specific diseases not for the benefit of the individual who gets that disease, but rather if the greater populace has need of that ability. We didn't see people running around infecting themselves to have abilities, but rather society doling out diseases as befitted the needs of society. Similarly, on Roshar, the Cultivation of Honor that fuels Surgebinding is not in service to the individual Surgebinder, but rather advocates by its very nature for a Surgebinder to become a champion of society, of the greater good, the overall populace. Power granted in largest doses not to the individual who seeks it for himself, but doled out instead to the individual who seeks to use it for Honor, for Justice, for the good of all. All of this matches the Intent of Cultivation, which is a term generally used on a large macro scale, rather than a micro. You can cultivate things for and of yourself, but for the most part, cultivation is done on a society wide level. According to this interpretation of magic and Investiture, had Ruin Invested on planets besides Scadrial, other magic systems of his might not have matched hemalurgy in that it required spiking various points in a spiritweb, or using metal, or even in stealing attributes. But its likely that all magic systems fueled by his Investiture would have the underlying commonality that they feed entropy. They Ruin, they enhance decay or degradation, they follow a law of diminishing returns. Were Endowment to Invest on other worlds and fuel more magic systems, they would all likely involve a gift, as in Breath, as a catalyst, with the act of gifting or endowing being crucial to the advancement of magic. And so on. Which brings us to Honor, and the Dawnshards. From what little we know of the Dawnshards, they have the power to bind any creature, voidish or mortal. By this theory, if Honor were to fuel more than one magic system, the underlying commonality due to his Intent is that his magic is always a thing of binding. On Roshar, with Investiture resulting in honorspren, that magic became Surgebinding, creating bonds between humans and ideas-made-flesh, with this bond being what allowed for the governing of natural forces such as gravity and friction. On Ashyn, where there were no spren, the magic that resulted might have looked very different....but still involved the binding of things. The only part of this theory I'm uncertain about is whether all Shard's Investiture, as influenced by a Shardworld, MUST take the same form - or if a Shardworld could interact with two different Shards in two different ways. This is true of everything we've seen so far where two or more Shards Invest in the same Shardworld, with spren on Roshar, metals on Scadrial, geographic identities and shapes on Sel. But just because it's all we've seen so far, doesn't mean that its automatically true for all Shards and all Shardworlds, and that there aren't exceptions or loopholes. I believe that Honor was previously Invested on Ashyn, along with Cultivation, but while her Investiture manifested via bacteria and resulted in disease magic....I believe that Honor's previous Investiture on Ashyn took the form of the Dawnshards or rather that whatever it is they truly are, they're the remnants of Honor's magic that were brought to Roshar when he and the humans came, just as the Old Magic is the echo of Cultivation's previous disease magic. Whether there is some link between the Dawnshards and disease magic, or that Honor interacted with the disease magic in Ashyn that I'm not thinking of because we have so very little information there with which to speculate - these are entirely possible. Or, alternatively, the Dawnshards represent a wholly different magic system that was fueled solely by Honor's Investiture while the disease magic was fueled by Cultivation (at least until Odium arrived, and possibly Invested on Ashyn resulting in bacteria/diseases that led to the humans of that world largely destroying it). Related to this theory but slightly tangential: Following the line of these thoughts, I do think that the fact that The Silence Divine reveals there are still people living on Ashyn and still using the disease magic means that there must be some Investiture still fueling it....meaning that Cultivation likely left a Splinter of herself behind, either intentionally or on accident, when she left for Roshar. However, if this is true, it could be the reason why Honor took the brunt of keeping Odium imprisoned via the Oathpact and his Heralds, while also explaining why Odium might have a trickier time Shattering Cultivation than he did Honor....because she's not entirely there on Roshar, and to completely kill or Shatter her, Odium would have to return himself or part of his Investiture to Ashyn and eliminate her there too, which he's either unable or unwilling to do, given the nature of his imprisonment and his focus on Roshar.
  24. Braize is the third planet from the system's sun know as Damnation. Roshar, which exists in between the Halls and Damnation is second planet. Is Ashyn Tranquiline Halls? the first planet?
  25. Ashen and Braize are on the Shadesmar map. This all comes from my ramblings on the Cosmere Maps thread but I'm consolidating it as a concise theory here. First: People seem to use the term Shadesmar and Cognative Realm interchangeably. So I just kept plugging along assuming that Shadesmar was the local term for the Cognative Realm on Roshar. Same thing, different places call the same things different names. Like some places it will be a water fountain, others a water cooler, others a bubbler, and others a scuttlebutt. No it is like Utah, United States of America. It is Shadesmar, Cognative Realm of the Cosmere. It is a zip code....An area code. My epiphany...which most of you knew already I assume...came because I realized that the Expanses looked like Mountain ranges growing bigger and taller in the sky. Almost reaching up to touch the Physical Realm at those 4 corners. @KidWayne map Clearly shows the Roshar System as the only known named system between the 4 Expances if we assume that we have associated them correctly. Now this is the KEY PART. Shadesmar is NOT a map of the Cognatve Realm, NOR is it a map of the planet of Roshar alone. It is a map of the entire Rosharan system. There are 2 more mountain ranges on the Shadesmar map. The Nexus of Transition and the Nexus of Imagination. Both are much closer to the 3 seas (3 dif credit to One Who Connects for languagues) 5 different language groups, and possibly different origin planets of the people of Roshar). 2 mountains not identified and 2 additional inhabited planet's in the Roshar system. The Rosharan system map shows both planets about the same distance from Roshar, but due to smaller orbits, Roshar and Ashyn should pass closer together more frequently than Roshar and Braise. Also sickness plays a key part on Ashyn. People Transition from healthy to sick and sick to healthy. I also can't think of anything more imaginary ie from the mind...than a planet full of cognitive shadow splinters. Therefore, my theory is that the Nexus of Transition is the Cognative pathway to Ashyn and the Nexus of Imagination...which just doesn't quite always touch any of the seas is the Cognative pathway to Braize. I have outlined where the 5 major language groupings occur on Roshar and transposed it to the Shadesmar map. The Vorin line up pretty well with the Sea of Lost lights and reach out towards the Nexus of Imagination. The Makabaki creep out of the Sea of Souls into the Sea of Regret. The Iri straddle the mountains of the Nexus of Transition. Dawnchant based languages survive in isolated and rigorous environments forming enclaves across the map. This could indicate that it originally was the only language and was pushed out by invaders or immigrants to the point that only the most rigorous places maintained the original language much as Spanish and English pushed out Native American languages. WOB on Reddit on language groups Questions and Flaws to be addressed: There are 3 Nexus (yes plural is same except bar on u, I looked it up) but this theory never addresses the Nexus of Truth. Recent ideas also speculate that the nexuses could be indicative of Sephardic influence affecting the CR. Why do the Iri straddle the Nexus of Transition, but not really any of the Seas? If Dawnchant was the original language, where did the other 3 people's come from? "Expanse of Storms" name is credited to @The One Who Connects