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Hi everyone, I'm not sure if this has been posted already, so go ahead and link it, delete or whatever needs to be done. I've been thinking about the way ideals progress since there's no ironclad definite way to know other than off of personalities of the characters and the information surrounding the knights. The majority of my information for this post will be referenced from this link: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/ Well, I think I may have stumbled onto something, I believe that the progression of the ideals is correlated with the clockwise direction of the Herald Wheel. I think it's best I explain using each character so we can go in order: Windrunners 2nd Ideal: “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.” —The Second Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin and Lopen) The general motto and purpose of the order. Great. 3rd Ideal: These all have a common theme between them. They each maintain what is a positive distance between what they want to do and what they need to do. There is an order that focuses on moral justice and fairness, more specifically understanding that the rules must be followed over personal attachments. Like the Skybreakers. Their order is all about fairness and it makes sense that Windrunners would add a standard to this ideal. 4th Ideal: I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!” — The Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin) Kaladin utters these words when he notices that his friend Teft is dead and he nearly resorts back to the state that did in Kholinar from Elhokar's murder. He is faced with death and will face it more. In order to progress as a leader he must accept that death is a possibility for everyone around him, no matter how hard he tries otherwise. Kaladin is always the first into a fight, he can't help himself. But when he is unable to accomplish his duty, he folds. Bravery is about moving forward despite what perceived failure one might face. While this seemed like an easy villainous act to kill Teft outright but it was actually clinical. He must have noticed how Kaladin reacted to Elhokar and then Roshone, knowing full well this would break him. Something that is a common theme among Dustbringers (I can sense the Moash Dustbringer theory fans rubbing their hands together in delight) The main goal of the Dustbringers is self-control and Kaladin will not be able to function optimally if he's not able to keep it together. 5th Ideal: I AM STORMBLESSED! We obviously don't know the last but I think some of you can tell where I'm going with this. It has been brought up on numerous occasions regarding Kaladin's medical background: He was meant to be trained as a surgeon in Kharabranth. He has trained those under him to render medical care. He talks with Syl about turning into a scalpel. He's trying to join the ardenture as well as help the mentally ill. During the tale end of RoW, we see that Kaladin had misremembered or rather misunderstood Tien's final moments and decision. This moment was instrumental in him reaching the 4th and I believe will play a bigger part in KoWT. These are all traits that an Edgedancer carries out. We know in Book 5 he is traveling to Shinovar to do some healing, in what way we don't know yet. Based on the order's focus on the simpler people, I would imagine he will be focusing on them. Other forms of overlap are that the Edgedancers were made up of nobility or at the very least had the demeanor of one and there are a number of instances in books like WoK and WoR have glimpses of his past with him being teased as a 'lordling' or 'wannabe lighteyes' to paraphrase. Both orders are noted for being scouts and accomplished weapon masters. Skybreakers 3rd Ideal: “I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath. ” —The Third Ideal of the Skybreakers, as sworn by Szeth I skipped to the third to get more to the point. The order of Dustbringers is about being brave and obedient and with this specific oath, the Skybreaker has become precise and how they pursue justice. This guideline can be a law or an individual, in this case, Dalinar. Releasers are about self-control and holding themselves accountable. Szeth has struggled very similarly to Kaladin but in an even more grotesque way. His destructive power is known throughout Roshar as the Assassin in White. The man who killed many, in particular, Gavilar the brother of the man he now serves. 4th Ideal: I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees. ” —The Fourth Ideal of the Skybreakers, as spoken by Szeth Here is where I start to stretch things a bit. From the phrasing of the words, it sounds like he is taking out an infection. The last ideal was about learning the boundaries under Dalinar's supervision and now he is acting out his sense of justice with his master's consent until he becomes his own. Edgedancers are all about remembering and this quest is very personal to him and he hasn't been home so he would find that his memory of things will be misconstrued or turn out a lot different than he remembered. Another thing to note is that if my theory is right - Both Kaladin and Szeth are on the same level of progression in the story. Kaladin is on his 4th and working on the 5th with Szeth currently working on the 4th. 5th ideal: I AM THE LAW “If you progress as a Skybreaker, you will need to become the law. To reach your ultimate potential, you must know the truth yourself, rather than relying on the crutch presented by the Third Ideal. Be aware of this.” —Szeth's highspren on the Fifth Ideal Szeth-son-son-Vallano is truthless. Was born in the Valley of Truth. The title is the next release is Knights of Wind and Truth. Need I say more? But in all honesty, will this hasn't been confirmed that I believe Truthwatchers has a resonance of empathy. They can feel people's emotions and in order to be the best law enforcer you need to balance upholding the law with the spirit of said law and how it translates to those involved. Edgedancers 3rd Ideal: “I will listen to those who have been ignored. ” —The Third Ideal of the Edgedancers, as sworn by Lift This one is connected to observing people. In particular, in this case, Lift is trying to convince Nale to see the ever storm which was the first time it forced him to acknowledge his conviction of killing Radiants was misplaced. 4th Ideal: "I will remember to care for myself/I will remember where I came from/I will remember who I used to be." Lightweavers are all about realizing who they really are and noticing the lies people tell themselves. Lift wished that she wouldn't 'grow' anymore but from a physical aspect she's growing. I imagine there is still something left in her past that we haven't come across. Maybe she will admit that she isn't a child anymore? 5th Ideal: "I will always cherish/remember what is most important about myself." Since we have so little on the Elsecaller oaths I can only go off of the purpose of the order which is to reach their potential. In terms of a character arc, this feels like it matches for someone who doesn't want to grow up but will eventually grow up while still keeping the parts of her that define her. Truthwatchers 3rd Ideal: "I will tell someone my truth." I remember towards the end of Way of Kings when Dalinar had commanded Renarin into battle, he tried to convince Dalinar otherwise because he was having his visions or he had seen something that scared him. Anyways, I think he might have sworn his ideal just before he told Dalinar and Adolin about him being a Truthwatcher in Oathbringer. Their order struggles with telling and giving others the information they possess. I even imagine that a lot of starter truthwatchers weren't upfront when they got their bond. 4th Ideal: "I will advise only on the best possible outcome." We get to the Elsecaller aspect which is about potential and the draw would be that with the vast amount of knowledge they know, they would prefer to give the information in a way that does the most good. However, I step out on a leg and say that Renarin's corrupted aspect takes root here. The scene that makes me think Renarin is close or has sworn his new ideal, was his involvement with Taravangian up to getting executed by Szeth. That scene involved T becoming a God. If that doesn't get you shardplate, I don't know what will. 5th Ideal: "I will seek to enlighten those who wish it." There is a subset of truth watchers that are linked to investigative journalists in some of the new info that came out with the release of RoW. Giving people certain amounts of information can be absolutely devastating so the Truthwatcher in question must be sure that the person they are presenting their information in the most altruistic manner even if the main consensus might disagree with it. Lightweavers 2nd truth: “What am I? I'm terrified. ” —A truth as spoken by Shallan It's obvious that most of her arc is about overcoming her fear by using various identities or telling even more painful jokes. 3rd truth: “I'm a murderer. I killed my father. ” —A truth as spoken by Shallan[7] The best connection I can come up with this is the fact that Shallan's father was the one thing stopping Shallan's growth as an individual. We knew that he had saved Shallan after her attempted murder and then covered it up. Whether overtime due to the influence of the unmade or his own personal frustration, his desire to protect Shallan turned into one of abusive control. Her brother might have died had she not poisoned and strangled her father and had she and her siblings never tried to leave, who knows where the family would have ended up. 4th truth: "I killed my spren." -Paraphrased truth spoken by Shallan I don't think it's any surprise that Shallan spoke this truth in RoW that is centered around Willshapers. Blocking out the death of a spren, especially in an environment where killing spren is the biggest taboo within Shadesmar. This is also the time when Shallan loses her persona of Veil. 5th truth: "I am RADIANT!" Shallan has one alter ego left, Radiant. The Stonewards are focused on team dynamics and working with others. We can see glimpses of this with Shallan's 'Unseen Court', her operation with Adolin in tracking down the Sons of Honor, etc. But has always kept things close to the chest with her interactions with the Ghostbloods which she ended in RoW. Up until this point she had one foot in the door and out the other by keeping her dealings a secret until the end of the latest book. It will be interesting to see how all that pans out but at this point, Shallan should be divorced of her wishy-washy attitude to things and acknowledge who she really is. Shallan the RADIANT! Elsecallers As we have no official oaths to link from, I'm just going to base what I think each ideal is off of clues in Jasnah's life. 3rd Ideal: "I will express what I think is the truth" We have a small timeline of seven years off which Jasnah has been bonded to Ivory as her flashbacks to the night of her father's death was were we get a mention of Ivory's appearance. I'm not 100% sure when she started making her secular views open but I will she sure of an ideal when she made such a thing public. 4th Ideal: "I will trust those beside me" For the longest time, Jasnah was on her own in regard to her philosophical views and her knowledge of Voidbringers. The closest was the Veristitalian, which is a group of scholars. I believe she wsore this oath in Oathbringer around when she is considering killing Renarin lest he betrays them all. 5th Ideal: "I will protect the potential for a brighter future." We see Jasnah in RoW standing on the front lines with a blade and plate on. This sort of thing is usually, Kaladin and Dalinar or even Szeth sort of thing. She is coming out of her comfort zone but Hoid reminded her that she is kneecapping herself for the sake of 'fairness' that even she can recognise is pointless. The Windrunners are some of the best warriors in the Radiants along with Stonewards so if my theory is correct, it makes sense this is where Jasnah would be. She is the current Queen of Kholinar and based on her intentions, the last monarch of Kholinar. I don't know how things will pan out but she will be wearing a crown of some sort for the foreseeable future. Willshapers 3rd Ideal: Venli at the end of RoW is now searching for a home for the singers that have left the Fused. Venli up until this point has only been figuring out a means of emancipation for herself and those who are like-minded. But the next stage will be establishing a community will all these singers that have various views despite their shared desire for independence. Most likely they will face persecution from Oduim's forces and she must now have a way of defending these people which means a militia of diverse forces must be established. 4th Ideal: Once her settlement is established, there is a high chance that they will set Venli up as their leader but she will be extremely hesitant to take it or pursue this. 5th Ideal: This will most likely be the most difficult challenge for Venli. For someone who had years of resentment for following the traditions of her tribe only to be shunted in favour of her adventurous sister was what brought on her desire to bring back the Fused. We saw this clearly in the flashbacks of her before the Alethi arrived. I think this definitely makes sense. Let me know what you guys think. Am I full of it and projecting too much or am I doing a poor imitation of someone else's post?

Ok, I don't have access to a pdf of RoW, so I'll do this as best I can. Some of you super-quoters, please help me out with the specific passages. In Ch 67 of RoW "Song of Stones" Venli is trying to

There's a voice In oathbringer that claims venli and saves her from becoming a fused. At first I thought this voice was odium. But after reading Row I'm not so sure. Could it be a void Spren? If so dose that mean tha Venli was a great void Spren in her jem heart? Any thoughts on the voice? Is it odium or spen or something else?

I feel Venli's chapters in Rhythm of War were the weakest. I was intrigued by where her charecter would go after Oathbringer but was disappointed by her storyline in Row. Any ideas on what she'll do next and what part she will have to play in the later books? Also any positive opinions on her chapters in Row because I hate feeling negative about a Stormlight charecter.

Some stuff is going on with these two. Venli wants to free everyone Mishram is in spren-prison Venli wanted new forms of power Mishram had brought many of them Theres a lot of threads here just waiting to be pulled. I suspect Venli and Shallan may team up/conflict in the near future since they seem to both be implicated with this spren. There's also another possible explanation for the femalen voice accepting Venli's oath: it may be that is not the normal oath and the stormfather rejected it but Cultivation accepted it because it serves her interests Intrepreted this way it suggests Mishram's imprisonment and the events surrounding is actually a dispute between Honor and Cultivation. Either way, Brandon is heavily invested in Venli's redemption arc with RoW. I expect there's a key plot point she plays in the next book. Final edit: it ocurred to me that the stormfather accepts oaths, could the femalen voice be Mishram, a powerful spren?

Honor died, but we have several clues in RoW indicating that he may be re-emerging. We've known since OB that Dalinar has taken up Honor's perpendicularity. Rayse believes Dalinar ascended, but I don't think Dalinar is the one ascending, actually. Like ... like ... like Odium. Everywhere we see red and gold together, it is Odium. Perhaps this is merely an indication that Kal is close to becoming a Child of Odium at this particular moment, howling after losing Teft and then these eyes. At the same time, Odium-red eyes have previously always been caused by a bond with voidspren, which seems not to be the case here. And why would soldiers fear a child of Odium, like themselves? Instead, perhaps these colors point to Kaladin's coming ascension. Honor's robes are gold, as well. Moash's continual insistence surrounding Kaladin's immortality certainly points to ascension. Finally, Tara-Odium notices a "growing" and "verdant" power, which is clearly pointing toward Cultivation. However, just as the back of RoW falsely implies that Navani will be a Lightweaver with its half-dozen references to truths and lies, I believe this most obvious allusion to Cultivation is not the one actually intended. Verdant can also mean brand new and budding. Growing points to something new.

Spoilers for Oathbringer below. on page 1099 in my hardcover version: “The air around Venli - once crowded by the spirits of the dead - was now empty save for the single black figure of swirling smoke. She’d missed that one at first, as it was the size of a normal person. It stood near Odium, and she did not know what it represented.” ...(conversation between Venli & Odium)... “She swallowed, then started hiking toward the city. The dark spirit followed, the one of swirling mists, the last who had yet to inhabit a body.” Dalinar mentions the spirit on page 1121 as well, as he speaks to Odium through Venli. So, does anyone know what - or who - this spirit is?

Okay, so I admit that the only reason I posted this was to get attention and let everyone know I'm semi-officially off hiatus. I feel like the title says it all, so I'm not going to go into details about motivations and stuff. Well, maybe my motivations for posting this cancer. I did it because every other even remotely plausible ship (and many even less plausible ones) seemed to be taken, and nobody else seemed to be posting about this. Also, Kaladin seemed a bit lonely on his island of being an extremely screwed up grumpy woobie, so I figured I might as well give him company in that. Please don't like this trash. The attention it generates is enough. You can discuss it if you want in the comment section below, though. That's what the comment section is for.

Anybody else expecting Eshonai to come back either physically or as a spren. Although I feel Venli has a good story arch, I feel like there was more to add about Eshonai. Any one else think she might make a come back?

Hey, remember reading in one of the posts on this site that in the Arcanum voidbinding has 10 forms. This got me thinking though, because in OB Moash said that he had seen 9 types of fused. What if voidbinding is not the surge system granted by the fused, but the surge system granted when a high spren enters a parshendi gem-heart, and the fused system is different entirely? Venli would be a true voidbinder, and Renarin is simply a human with the voidbinding surges?

I recently listened to the Shardcast on Resonances and was wondering due to the mixing of Odious Investiture with the Nahel bond if Renarin and/or Venli would have a different Resonance than other Truthwatchers or Willshaperes?

SO! I love Venli in OB, and her dynamic with Timbre. I also personally identify with the order of Willshapers (as seen by my profile picture) and can't wait till Book 4 A.K.A. Willshaper Extravaganza!! I have made this thread to talk about this amazing character, and to appreciate Willshaperness in general I'll start... The part when Venli is talking to Timbre about the Voidspren "YOU TOOK A VOIDSPREN HOSTAGE!?!?!" *Timbre smiles innocently while holding scumbag Voidspren at gunpoint*

From the prologue where Gavilar tells Eshonai of their secret ways of trapping spren and how he wants to help her bring back her gods, giving her a sphere of unusually dark light: So what happened to this sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai? That's the million-dollar question, right? Along with the sphere Gavilar gave to Szeth. I'm wondering if Ulim could be the spren trapped in the sphere. Eshonai does take the sphere. Perhaps she hides it or throws it away (or gives it to the Five), but these paths might eventually lead to Venli. Ulim, a spren the Fuzed (Ancient Ones) call the Envoy, did succeed in convincing and helping Venli to bring back stormform and eventually the Everstorm and the Fuzed.

I think we should get Venli flashbacks instead of Eshonai flashbacks when Brandon writes the book that was to be centered around Eshonai. I really grew to enjoy Eshonai's character, I love her curious nature and how easily distracted she is in the prologue to OB. However, I think Venli's backstory holds more relevance since she was secretly working with Ulum the spren of Odium to help bring about the Everstorm. Eshonai was an aspiring explorer who never really got that far. In WoR she reflects that she always had duties at home that kept her from exploring as mush as she'd like. In the OB prologue she is shocked at how small the unclaimed hills are on Gavilar's map. There doesn't seem to be that much Eshonai's story could reveal that Venli's story wouldn't and Venli was working on secret, plot relevant things that Eshonai did not know about. Plus, Eshonai is dead and Venli is alive and looks to be a future Knight Radiant, the book should focus on her. By focusing on Venli's actions in the past her actions in the present will be informed with additional meaning (as has been the case with the first three books). I know Brandon said he'd do Eshonai flashbacks and a person being dead doesn't preclude them from getting flashbacks. I don't know if he wanted Venli to be the one that lives and changes sides all along or if he called an audible and I don't think it matters. I think Venli flashbacks better serves the story going forward.

So I keep seeing people say that Venli is/will be a Willshaper. From what I can find, we know nothing of the spren that Willshapers bond or anything about them really. Why is everyone saying she's a Willshaper? I don't know what I missed.