Search the Community

Months ago, I had made a "stick figure" avvie of Kaladin a la Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick (based on the cover for WoR, 'course) Since I had a Kal figure I had to make this scene too (minor woR spoiler, I guess) Anyways, I looked at the little guy again, and though to myself, how hard could it be to transform it into a more realistically proportioned and detailed version? The problem with thoughts like that is that they lead to ridiculous time consuming projects. (please click to embiggen) I'm too lazy to bother with a real background. Maybe sometime in the future.

So I don't think this would actually happen, but can you imagine how funny and awesome it would be if Kaladin took Nightblood from Szeth? I shall prepare a scenario: Kaladin walked through the crowded streets of Kholinar, Nightblood in his hand. The stupid sword hadn't shut up since he took him from Szeth. You should kill him. The sword told him. It could have meant any single person down the street. They've probably done something to hurt someone. Anyone could hurt someone. You should stop that from happening. Syl zipped down from her unseen place in the sky as a little ribbon. "Don't listen to him Kaladin. You need to protect the people. Lead them and train them to be honourable." Kill him. Kill him. "Don't kill them Kaladin!" "Would you two shut up! I'm not going to kill anyone!" You're no fun. The sword seemed to be pouting at him somehow. Syl stuck her tongue out at it. End scene...

Hello! I'm ~sylphrena~, and I'm excited to join the 17th shard! I'd love to get to know some of you better, so here are a few questions... Eye color? I'm darkeyed and proud of it Favorite characters from SA/Mistborn/Elantris? Mine are Vin, Ellend, Syl, Pattern, Kaladin, Shallan, and Wax (to name a few) Favorite Sanderson book that is not SA or Mistborn and why? (I'm trying to decide which to read next) An interesting fact about Sel, Roshar, Scadrial or the cosmere in general... Thanks! Oh, and I hope we do track down Wit eventually. He's quite entertaining, IMO.

I’ve looked for an answer to this question, but haven’t been able to find one. Apologies if it has already been discussed to death. I don’t have a theory to associate with the following observation, but am wondering: it is significant and, if so, do we have enough information to make sense of it? During the highstorm when Eshonai bonds the stormspren, Szeth also attacks the palace in an attempt to assassinate Dalinar. During this sequence, the Stormfather, Syl, and Pattern become extremely agitated. When I read the scene for the first time, I was so caught up in the atmosphere that I didn’t notice the possible overlapping. From the beginning of the chapter “The One Who Hates,” it is clear to the reader that the ongoing highstorm is Eshonai’s highstorm but not that Szeth is on the way. Eventually, based on Syl’s reaction and the narration, Szeth appears to be an agent of Odium. Starting off, in Kaladin’s storm dream, he speaks with Stormfather: Stormfather seems to be referring to Odium and the Everstorm that Eshonai will set into motion by bonding the stormspren and converting other Parshendi in a later storm. Pattern also agrees that something is off: And when Syl finds Kaladin, she also expresses alarm: Kaladin immediately begins to evacuate the palace, even though he still doesn’t know what is happening. It’s still not clear to the reader that Szeth is there. Syl's quote that "He's coming" still seems to refer to Odium. Once they reach the hallway where the spheres have been drained, but right before they see Szeth, Syl comments: Finally, we (the readers and characters) know that an assassination attempt is happening. When Kaladin tries to explain Szeth’s powers as deriving from the Nahel bond, Syl is adamant that he is something else, either having seen the honorblade, his use of stormlight, or not sensing a spren. Syl later points to Szeth’s blade as particularly troubling: What I don’t understand is why Syl makes the connection between the other ominous events and the arrival of Szeth. She clearly says “He’s here” in reference to Szeth when they find him during the evacuation. She’d already said “He’s coming,” but it seemed much more tied to the stormspren bonding and Odium. I know there are theories about Szeth having a connection to one of the unmade re: "the screams" as well as concerns about consuming so much stormlight. Is this Sanderson just writing an awesome chaotic scene or is there a clue in there?

I did a quick search to see if this has come up, and couldn't find anything directly... My questions and thoughts have turned toward the restrictions on Syl and Kaladin's bond - it won't function, to the point of killing Syl, if Kaladin refuses to protect someone/decides to outright murder a fool. I'm wondering if a similar restriction exists upon Skybreakers. Does their bond degrade when they decide to NOT kill? If they find someone guilty, do they have to kill, or is there a choice within their bond to stay execution? I know that the question of "Were those REAL Skybreakers in WoR?" will come up at some point, but I'm thinking of what we know of the Skybreaker Radiants, while considering all the data available. (So no getting too bogged down) What do you think?

I'm curious to find out what others think about this... Question: How is it possible that Syl helped men kill before? From Pattern, we now know that almost no spren survived the Recreance: Hypothesis: 1. Syl is a pre-recreance spren who survived. 2. Syl remembers helping men kill before as part of a collective spren memory. 3. Syl has begun the bonding process with other potential surgebinders, but either they've abandoned her before reaching the shardblade stage, or they've died. Discussion: 1. Syl is a pre-recreance spren who survived. I've got very little for or against this one. We know she is the only (or at least the first) Honorspren to disobey the Stormfather, that she refers to the Stormfather as her father, and that the Stormfather is very protective of her, calling her "My beloved one." But I don't feel like any of that background is particularly relevant. Supporting arguments: This WoB: So how long ago was the Recreance? Maybe this is an open and shut case, just based on that quote? Counter argument: Syl's age could be independent of her consciousness (as in unborn Spren, forces, that cannot truly be created or destroyed), or she could have spent thousands of years in the cognitive realm. 2. Syl remembers helping men kill before as part of a collective spren memory. Supporting Argument: Syl has already said that all spren are basically the same. Counter Arguments: Syl herself notices that she is different than the windspren. Perhaps her statement regarding unity only applies to non-Bonding spren? Of the Bonding spren we've seen, we've mostly seen individual spren, the only other counter I can think of is Wyndle (Lift's spren) since he has referred to the Circle. Wyndle's wish was to bond with some nice old gardener, but his opinion was countered which indicates individuality. This argument depends on the Circle being other growth/vine/garden/same-as-Wyndle-spren. If all spren share a collective memory, then Pattern should have memories of what happened pre-Recreance? Speculatively, when there were many spren, you'd assume that they would have individual experiences with their bonded surgebinders... 3. Syl has begun the bonding process with other potential surgebinders, but either they've abandoned her before reaching the shardblade stage, or they've died. I don't really have anything of substance for or against this, except the previous WoB that she's been around for thousands of years, which has the same counters as previously mentioned in 1. Can a spren only bond with one person? Can they begin bonding with one person, then begin a new bond with someone else if it doesn't pan out? What if Kaladin died before regaining his bond with Syl, could someone else have revived her? I have nothing on this. I do think it could be possible that if a Surgebinder is killed, that their Spren would survive. Purely speculation though. This might actually be a pretty good question for Brandon. Conclusion: Nothing conclusive! But I'm going to go with 3. I think she's either a survivor of a dead radiant, or an incomplete failed prior bond. These are my thoughts. Do you have a favourite answer, or another idea! Shoot me down, I dare you... (Edit: Conclusion based on thread input) Conclusion: The general consensus is that Syl is a Pre-Recreance spren. Her radiant died (we don't know if this is through battle or just old age, especially since we don't know the effects of the Nahel bond on lifespan) and Syl returned to Shadesmar to wait for another bond. The Recreance occurred and she was forbidden from bonding again. She came back through from Shadesmar to bond with Kaladin against the Stormfather's wishes and lost her memories. Thanks for everyone's input! There are a few new questions that came from this that deserve their own threads, and that I might pursue unless they already exist. For example, I really like Pathfinder's question about spren transitions.

I was reading the alloy of law annotations and I read this. Then, I was, as a Chemistry degree holder, thinking of a way that this could play out and be considered relatively consistent and scientific. These are the challenges. 1. You have to be able to break things with your weight. 2. He has to be able to move about normally. 3. It has to focus on mass. 4. He can't be bullet resistant. I think I know a way he could do that and have the science remain consistent to all of the agreed upon conditions. This is a non spoilery quote from WoR Rather than storing mass, what if feruchemy stored the signal of mass? The agreement of mass between the tiny preservation and ruin building blocks of the world? Because it wasn't storing real mass when a human or a bullet under the influence of a human hit it, their innate investiture and spirit would resist the feruchemy, as it would resist an iron push, and they would feel the weight increase or decrease to a lesser degree. An object or the floor would feel the full influence of the iron feruchemy as it lacked much spirit and had no reason to think the person was lying about their weight. A bullet, shot from a human, would be filled with the human's intent to kill, perhaps a small part of their soul, and would resist the feruchemy increase in mass and kill. This could be scientifically tested in a future book.

This is a theory that I believe is almost certainly true: Nightblood is an Honorblade (or the same class of weapon. Not one of the Heralds' weapons). It's essentially an Honorblade, only with different powers and restrictions. But it follows the same scheme. At the San Francisco signing, I asked Brandon if Nightblood would function as a Shardblade on Roshar. He said that Nightblood wouldn't just function like one, but that it was one. And, coupled with Nightblood's nasty habit of consuming Investiture when in use, and how it needs a variable precondition before use (in this case, it judges purity of heart), and how it is "Orders of Magnitude more powerful than a Shardblade", Nightblood is an Honorblade. Honorblades consume Investiture, which is why Kaladin is more efficient than Szeth. Syl says, Also, Honorblades (I think) must be given for use. I remember a quote for that, but I can't find it. Sorry. Finally, Honorblades have numerous quotes stating how they are more powerful than Shardblades. So, there you have it! Nightblood is in the same class of weapon as the Honorblades! Poke holes in this theory, if you dare!

So, as I expect most of you did, I concluded fairly solidly as I read that Szeth held an Honorblade (likely Jezrien's) and that was the source of his surgebinding ability. There are a number of passages to put that on a pretty strong foundation. Perhaps most notably, Syl tells Kaladin that she "thinks" that Szeth's former blade is an Honorblade and that it was the source of his abilitries. And then I read this WoB from the San Diego signing: source Then I recalled reading where Nalan told Szeth that he had died long enough to break the bond to his blade. I thought to myself: I have arrived at a few possibilities here: 1) Brandon misunderstood the question and/or mispoke/tricky-spoke. 2) Talenelat misunderstood Brandon's answer. or 3) Szeth actually did not have an Honorblade and Syl was/is mistaken. While I am leaning towards door number 1) or 2), I find door number three rather compelling. Here's why: 1) Szeth leaked Stormlight like a sieve. He needed to consume far more Stormlight than Kaladin. 2) We never saw Szeth's blade shift to better suit his situation. 3) So far, we have no indication that the Heralds had shardplate and Szeth indicated that he could not use plate and effectively surgebind (seems pretty obvious that he would suck out all the Stormlight from his gemstones that powered the plate). For at least those three reasons, it seems that each KR (at least modestly progressed in the ideals) was more powerful than the Herald associated with their order. Now, could perhaps the proper Herald wield their Honorblade in a more Stormlight efficient manner? Could they actually have a form of plate which pops in and out fairly instantaneously? Could Jezrien's Honorblade change shape according to Jezrien's desires/needs while using it? Sure. It is quite possible that we simply have not had the opportunity yet to see these things. But I find it compelling nonetheless. Even if all these things were in play for the Heralds, is the only functional difference between the Heralds and the KR then the Heralds' funky immortality? Let's hash this out a bit. Could there still be some life in the idea that Szeth's blade may actually have been the third type? Parting thought, if Szeth's blade is an Honorblade: Could the three types of blades be the Honorblades, the dead KR blades, and the vital KR blades?

This is my first post, and I apologize for its tongue in cheek nature. Here goes: I thought it was cool that Syl took the form of a spear during Kaladin's fight with Szeth. But as the fight went on, I felt like the shardblade-can-take-whatever-form-you-want ability seemed like a little too much. It reminded me of She-ra. My kids like watching the He-man and She-ra cartoons. So in episode 18 of the first season of She-ra, she goes into space and has her sword of protection turn into a space helmet so she can breath. Later while saving the unconscious villain Hordack's life, She-ra re-enters the atmosphere by having her sword turn into a heat shield (thus avoiding a severe burn to her bottom -- which made me laugh quite a bit). I'm just wondering if Brandon Sanderson got his shardblade shape changing ideas from She-ra, and if so, will we be seeing similar outer space adventures from the knights radiant in future books. Could a spren turn into two blades for one trained in 2-bladed combat or a sword and a shield?

First of all, something of a warning. There is no hard evidence to be had here, as this is an entirely subjective interpretation of a character - one that I feel is almost certainly opposed to Mr. Sanderson's intentions, and contrary to what most people believe. I hope there is room for something like this here. I believe Syl is at worst actually malevolent - and I'm thinking of the indirect, insidious type, not the 'torture kittens and murder everything' version - or at best morally neutral and extremely creepy. As soon as I started reading WoR, I immediately felt something was wrong with her. It took me a long time to put what my problem is into words, and I also find it difficult to make a case for it, due to the nature of the wrongness. You see, my argument is top down, not bottom up. What I mean by that is that I am not finding clues, and then coming to a realisation based on them. Instead, I have a sense of evil that is present in virtually every scene with Syl, but is rather formless. The only thing I can do is to point out what seems off every time. However, taken individually, all of these concerns are weak and very easy to accept, explain, or dismiss. What I consider to be the true picture is only apparent if you take all of it together, in context; this is why I name it insidious. Before I get to the point, I have to make two assumptions about the nature of Syl clear. She is a character in a meaningful way, and she has a level of control over the bond. Everything else is based on this, therefore if I am wrong here, I am wrong in everything. Syl is a character: it is not uncommon in fantasy (typical examples include the sidhe and divine beings, like angels) and science fiction (shackled AI, for instance), that a being is bound by rules, cosmic or otherwise, or their own nature, very, very tightly. Specific examples would be the Mothers from the Dresden files, or Sazed from the Cosmere. The latter holds two shards, so he should be a force to be taken seriously, yet because those shards are opposites, he finds it hard to act. The point here is that these beings will normally have a personality, yet it is practically irrelevant. What they are allowed to do and say is controlled to such an extent, that the personality is little more than a coat of paint. These individuals can be recurring, or supporting cast, if used sparingly, but they can't function as a focus for a story. Based on what we know of how spren work, it isn't impossible that they fall in this category, but I doubt it. To say nothing more, it is mentioned that Syl came to our realm despite what her people thought, which clearly shows she has a certain level of freedom, and that not all honourspren will make the same decisions. Syl's control of the bond: I don't think this is like flipping a switch, or even necessarily deliberate on her part. Furthermore, it seems clear that she can't advance the bond on her own. At the same time, I get the impression that breaking it, or weakening it, is something she can very much do - perhaps through how she views Kaladin. If she strongly disapproves, the bond weakens. There is no explicit mention of this in the text, but several conversations imply it. For instance, at the duelling grounds when Kaladin attacks Adolin for the second time, and Stormlight leaves him, or at the end when Syl speaks about how spren require checks. Finally, though this is an outside view, if this is not the case, then Syl doesn't have agency, which would significantly reduce her value as a character. Lastly, before I get into what I've seen in WoR, I have to point out a few things from WoK. Back then, Syl was by far my favourite character, and the reveal at the end that she is honourspren fit everything perfectly. In no particular order: 1. She was acting in every way like Kaladin's equal. They had conversations, and they even made some decisions together. She advised him, and helped him, but didn't order, or require. 2. Syl genuinely and passionately cared about Kaladin. Not merely about what he was doing, but about the man himself. Her concern for him practically shone through the pages. She 'held off' the highstorm to protect him, and 'fought off' the deathspren. How much practical effect either of those had is irrelevant, the gesture was clear. 3. She had initiative. She was doing things on her own, creatively even. The most obvious example would be fetching the poison leaf for Kaladin. 4. She was considering things, and making decisions. This is very important. She didn't have knee-jerk reactions. With the bribe for Gaz, for instance, she ended up making the obvious choice, but it was a choice. 5. She was fairly tolerant. When Kaladin explained what was happening with the apothecary she accepted it. Kaladin didn't immediately want to go back to help Dalinar on the Tower. When he hesitated, Syl made her opinion clear, yet didn't mind the fact that he had to think about it for a moment. I think at this point it is fairly obvious what I'm getting at, so I won't pick apart every single scene with Syl in WoR, but I will highlight the most important ones. There are three primary changes, once again in no particular order (all of this is before their bond ever starts to weaken): 1. Life leaves her. She largely stops making observations, comments, decisions. She becomes shockingly passive and numb to what's around her. Example: Kaladin attempts to have a serious conversation with her about what is right, most notably regarding fighting the listeners. Syl has nothing to add. The problem here isn't that she can't come up with a good answer, it's that she ignores the issue completely. 2. Her relationship with Kaladin changes. She no longer acts like a friend/companion/partner. She starts to have requirements for Kaladin, without in any way working with him. She declares that he needs to stop being depressed and be happy, yet she doesn't show a fraction of the empathy and understanding she had in the previous book. She doesn't in any way try to help him in this. She makes her will known, and gets increasingly annoyed when it doesn't magically happen. Example: She knows exactly what Amaram has done and what Kaladin feels, but never tries to help him get over it. She wants him to stop dwelling on it and not to seek revenge, which is fair enough in and of itself, but she handles is horribly. She offers no alternative, or support. She tells him how things will have to be, and that's that. This is especially worrisome, because even if he managed, by some inhuman effort, to live up to this, that would definitely harm him more than practically anything else before. 3. Something of a combination of the previous two, yet essential, and deserving special mention. Her passionate concern for Kaladin is gone. She says she is worried, and she says she wants him to be happy, but her actions never back this up. Indeed, she doesn't seem to get nearly as emotional as before. The only time she becomes animated is when she talks of Dalinar. If I wouldn't know better, I could think she is bonded to him, not Kaladin. Example: Syl insists that Kaladin should tell Dalinar about Amaram, however her priorities are in the wrong place. This isn't important to her because she believes this is the best for him, or that this is their best chance to seek justice, but rather it's about how awesome and great and trustworthy Dalinar is. Even after Dalinar dismisses it and pretty much says to their face that he doesn't believe it, Syl still defends him. She clearly isn't interested in helping Kaladin, she is cheerleading for Dalinar. Finally, let's talk about what happens when the bond starts to weaken, and then break. There are three possibilities offered for why this happens, and it is never made explicitly clear which is the real reason. It could be any, or a combination of any. 1. Kaladin betrays his oath to protect. 2. Kaladin has made two conflicting promises, and will have to break one for sure. 3. Kaladin is acting differently from what his conscience says. 2. Either this is not resolved in any way, since he does break one promise, if we look at it this way; or speaking the Words somehow frees him from this issue. The latter option seems more likely, especially since the idea that conflicting promises are a problem is introduced by Syl, who then uses this to push for speaking the Words. It seems clear that Kaladin made a mistake here, but what is more noteworthy is that Syl immediately jumped on this, and used it as leverage to further pressure him towards speaking the Words, which was her agenda for the entire book. As for the other two, we have to consider what Kaladin is actually doing first. Up until the duel when he had to help Adolin, Kaladin showed remarkable restraint, both with Amaram and the king. Asking for a boon was stupid and wrong, yet it must be said that he did this after Dalinar apparently failed him, and he was trying to work within the legal system as much as possible. At this point, the king did something incredibly petty and idiotic - as he himself later admits -, which made Kaladin go into brooding overdrive. In his dark mood, he decided to off the king. At this point the bond starts to break, rapidly. This might sound logical, but it isn't. We need to keep going. Kaladin gets out of prison, tells Moash that he is with them... and then nothing happens. This is the crucial thing to understand. While he was in prison, he was angry enough to seriously consider killing the king, and then made a promise to that effect. Except you have to remember, Moash is his only friend, and by now, as I pointed out, even Syl is acting all wrong. In hindsight, it's clear he is just blowing off some steam. Consider: he never in any way acts on this. He doesn't change guard rotation, doesn't do anything to increase the chance of success of an assassination attempt. More tellingly, he spends the entire rest of the book thinking on this, and trying to rationalise it. It's clear even he knows this is wrong - when Dalinar's force is moving out, and he learns Moash is in charge of the king's guard, he becomes nervous and agitated, and not with anticipation. This is days before he finally fully decides where he stands, by the way. Now that we know this, let's address 1 and 3. 1. This is pretty straightforward, he has some thoughts that go against it, but it never at any point manifests. It could be argued that even internal wavering is too much, but that's part of the creepiness, and I'll address that scenario later. 3. This is even better. All of his wavering, doubt, and attempts at rationalisation are the work of his conscience. This is exactly what it means to have one. The statement 'he isn't doing what he thinks is right' is only possible because of all the uncertainty. If he just 100% decided to kill the king and never thought about it again, that might break the bond, but the not because of what is written in 3. Syl: I don't want to force you to do anything. You have to do what you think is right. Kaladin: That's what I'm trying to do! Syl: No. I don't think you are. This exchange is nonsense. The operative word is trying. Syl isn't saying what is on the page. What she expects isn't for Kaladin to simply do the right thing, he has to do it without doubt, without thinking through the problem to come to a decision, and with utter conviction. And that is what I wanted to get to. That is what I find downright scary, and evil. Just look at what Syl is saying. 'Force' is emphasised. She doesn't want to force him. Forcing him would be wrong, and very similar to what happened to the listeners, but at least it's honest, in a way. No, what is happening here is much worse. His will is being subverted. He has to become fanatical in his compliance with her values, a zealot. He has to be unwaveringly loyal to a set of standards, and it isn't even a rule set he can choose, but rather one that is already determined. With the overall idea in mind, even innocent and supposedly cute scenes become horrifying. At one point she says she is a god, and Kaladin can bow to her. Then she says, stunningly arrogant, 'I'm not the one we've been waiting on'. And it ends with Kaladin trying to praise her and be nice, which she accepts as 'fact' and 'lets it slide'. They had very similar exchanges in WoK, but because the dynamic of their relationship was completely different, these worked. Here, it just seems awful. Worst of all is when she tells Kaladin, 'That's what they all were, silly.', [broken], it sounds straight up psychotic. As I said at the start, I know this is wildly different from what most everybody sees, and I recognise my explanation leaves much to be desired, and isn't convincing at all, but this truly is what I've felt throughout the book, and how it reads to me. As an interesting bit, I have to say, in preparation of writing this post, I reread all the Kaladin bits from WoK, and even now the Syl presented there is my favourite character in the Stormlight Archive. Some final, and rather random, thoughts. These are only slightly related to my point, but thinking on Syl in WoR made me think of these: 1. All the spren we see for any length are creepy. Wyndle says 'the Ring said we should choose you. (...) 'She will be young and we can mold her'. How is that not creepy? Unlike the things with Syl, where I had to think long and hard, this was so bad, it made me put down the book in shock, and then read that paragraph three times to finally accept it. Pattern. Funnily enough, he is the one who took me the longest time to see as suspect, because of his honesty about his values. What made it click finally was stating the situation, which I see as such: 'An impressionable, impulsive young woman, just becoming an adult meets a much older man, who introduces her to the world of lies and deceit, and encourages her to immerse herself in it.' To me, that sounds like a bad thing. 2. Opposing the bad guys doesn't make you the good guys. Being good does. 3. Syl barely acts as a honourspren. The only thing she cares about is that Kaladin doesn't lie to her. Past that, her priority is only the literal, physical protection of everybody. She is more like a proterctionspren. 4. The only thing that changed between books that we know of is that Kaladin took the oath to protect. After that, at the end of WoK, they have no meaningful interaction. What if the oath has a profound effect on the spren, and not just that she can be present in this realm more strongly, but that it is somehow responsible for the change. 5. As far as the honour thing goes, I thought the logic was: Kaladin is honourable -> he wants to protect others, not Kaladin protects other -> he must be honourable. As such, honour should involve more things than just protecting lads. WoR seems to work more along the lines of the second option, which I find strange. This should be obvious, but I love the series and have immense respect for Mr. Sanderson. None of this is meant to imply poor writing or continuity in any way. The vast majority of this is from an in world perspective, and the bits that aren't are general tropes, I guess I'd call them, I picked up, that just influence how I experience fantasy literature.

Having read WoR I am a little confused on this point. I mean, I totally get that Syl was dying as a result of Kaladin being an emo douchbag for a while. He was betraying his oath to protect and was going all ends justify the mean and so he was killing Syl. I get that. BUT... what did he do that actually cased her to break finally? I mean wasn't he trying to protect Dalinar from the assassin when the bridge fell into the chasms? How is that against his oaths? Maybe I need to read the scene again but this left me a little confused.

In WoR, Syl mentions toward the end that her father doesn't like Kaladin. Since she is a honorspren isn't her father Honor? But, Honor is dead, right? Are they talking about Honor's spren? What does Syl's father do in the world beside produce highstorms? Any thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!

I need your help with something I’ve been wondering about. I’m probably just overlooking things. Anyway, here goes. So.. Syl more or less died when Kaladin went back on his ideals and seemed to regress instead of progress. What it took to bring her back seems to have the been his remembering and believing his already spoken ideals and formulating the next one - and even that almost wasn’t enough. Now on to Pattern. At some point in her early childhood, Shallan bonded him, which means she formulated the first ideal, otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to use him to kill her mother. As we now know, Shallan shut down after that. Lied to herself so intensely, that she completely denied Pattern and her powers. She even went on to kill her father. Denying everything should lead to the same outcome as Kaladins case: Almost killing her Spren. In WoK, Shallan got in touch with her powers and her Spren again by speaking a truth. A truth, but not the truth that lead her to deny Pattern. Yet at the beginning of WoR, we see Pattern gaining consciousness (actually re-gaining it). It’s not until the end of the book that Shallan speaks the truth that actually mattered more, stops denying what happened and remembers the once spoken ideal. At that point, however, Pattern has already long been happily flopping around. So.. there actually seem to be different requirements for killing and saving a Spren from the brink of death. Or am I missing something?

I'm new here so this may have been discussed before, but one of the things I am most curious about is how the different Spren in the book will get along. Will they become friends, rivals, something more...? Here are some of my thoughts. Syl Pattern Glys Ivory Wyndle Stormfather Nightwatcher How do you think these Spren will respond to each other? Do you think we will have a Spren POV in the next book?

The conclusion I've come to after hanging around the forums: SPREN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING. And you know how the Purelake fish are like cooler versions of regular fish - because of spren? Or how chasmfiends are like cooler versions of other lifeforms - because of spren? Or even my pet theory about Ryshadium being cooler versions of horses because of spren? Clearly, Syl is a cooler version of a windspren because she has a spren. Discuss.

I was doing some thinking today in the car during my re[listen] and decided something about Puppy. For those who don't follow, Puppy is the tentative name for Shallan's spren, as he acts just like a puppy and no other animal. In the new chapters, Jasnah names him a liespren. We also have a WoB that Puppy is a truthspren (though it sounds as though Brandon was making a joke). Moreover, we believe it is pre-puppiness Puppy who asks Shallan to reveal a truth and tells her that it has been a long time, but he is ready to "change" when she is in Shadesmar. This obviously means Soulcast, so I assume it's Puppy. We believe that these bondable spren are attracted to the very attributes they are named after, as well as those listed on the Ars Arcanum. Shallan is not very truthful though. So I think "truthspren" is out. She is a bit of a liar- hell she has some huge lies ready to be revealed - but I find it hard to believe that one KR Order is going to be based on everyone hiding murders and that sort of thing. So here is what I decided on, and personally I like it a lot: The term "liar" is being used in an alternative way to the definition we give it normally. You could throw the liar title onto a magician or a fiction author with the right definition. I think Puppy was goading her into using it to come to terms with what she will do. She is going to be an Illusionist by everyone's best guess. It is going to be a fundamental component of her abilities to create lies and create them well. (As far as her secondary attribute goes, Honesty, I think her ability to lie so convincingly will cause her problems unless she can prove to others that she will be honest enough to trust. I think it will come in time.) In the same way I can see honor being a critical component of Protecting, while Leading is a result of honor. There are many leaders who don't have honor in this series, but because of their nobility. Kaladin will gain Leadership and has gained leadership because of his honor and protection of others. I would be extremely pleased if there ended up being a system to this where the Surgebinder started with their primary attribute, that attracted their spren, and as a result they grew into their secondary attribute. I'm less sure about Lift and Wyndle, but I think the same can be said. She starts out with a natural ability to be Loving which draws in Wyndle, and now that they are together, she appears to be developing a passion for healing. If this is all already known or assumed, the purpose of this post was almost more to say that this is the reason I love Brandon Sanderson books. Systems!

Hey guys, I've been skimming over the associations between the 4 developing Knights Radiant we've seen (including the one from the WoR interlude) and the Heralds. It makes sense that they seem to have matching character attributes (e.g. Kaladin clearly has Jezrien's "Divine Attributes" of protecting/leading), but I noticed that all 4 Knights also match the genders of their respective Heralds. I want to throw a few ideas around for discussion: Brandon's mentioned that we've met multiple Heralds already, beyond the opening chapter in WoK. Is it possible that there's some reincarnation or amnesia element that could make one of our main characters an actual Herald without us knowing? If this gender aspect is, in fact, not just by chance, it opens the way for new guesses on people who could develop into Radiants. Note that there can only be one new female character that becomes a Knight (since we've got 3 female Radiants already out of the 4 female Heralds), and that person would have to match the attributes of Chach (bravery/obedience) I haven't seen anything that completely nails down the mechanics of how spren are involved in the evolution of a Radiant, but does it matter that Syl is female while Kaladin is male?

I can't take credit for this idea. It was Zen at Stormlight Archive Reread that came up with it and I just wanted to take the discussion here. http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/06/the-way-of-kings-reread-chapters-16-and-17#355750 If Shallan did draw a picture of Kaladin, would syl be on it? I'm looking forward to the situation as it could potentially be the event that causes them to start working together and start searching for others with abilities. I also think that it could happen quite soon after Shallan comes to the shattered plains as they will probably meet quite soon due to the close relationship between Dalinar and Jasnah. Kaladin should be quite a novelty as a darkened captain responsible for Dalinars guard and also with command over a whole battalion and should be an early target for Shallans Drawing. Shallans abilities could be the thing that could make it possible to fast find enough knight radians before the desolation destroys everything.